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What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the GE

Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

It's the SDP image created by CSJ. He is a crazy guy who has single-handedly destroyed a party that Mr Chiam created. I've always been suspicious of his motives and I'm surprised he is still able to recruit such quality candidates.
 

lockeliberal

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Dear PT and Scroo

Here are several other points of thought. Firstly I admire the SDP marketing collateral and its website, informative, well presented , well written, Heck compared to the WP , its presentation and packaging sucks. We look like circa 1984. But to its credit it works.

SDP Marketing.

What was that bear doing at the walk abouts as a macot ? It was soon copied by SDA and its Simbo the Ant but no one else joined on the bandwagon. KISS, Selling the democrat is about shaking hands. The bear was some marketing guru imangination run amok.

SDP Manifesto

Calling it a Shadow budget was an over inflation. A Shadow Budget makes sense when you have Numbers in parliament. Not before. Yes I know everyone calls it a Manifesto but sometimes the TRIED and Tested work. If there is no need to improve it DONT. Again a marketing gimick run amok.

Speeches During Rallies.

What is reported during the Rallies especially by a Mainstream Press more favorable counts. They were all over the place. Yes Rhetoric is fine, yes a swipe at a Minister is fine but at the end of the day not one clear message resonates. Attack a Minister if you have to but make sure it dove tails back to a nice easy catch phrase. They were at the end of the day pulling the SDP cart in different directions.


Locke
















I am not quite sure why Scroobal persists with his I-know-all-and-I-know-best, sneering, condescending attitude towards the SDP in this thread and in the other threads he started. This is since they obviously don't give a toss about him or his views as they and the old forummers know his personal history since scs and the old sammyboy forum days in the 90s.

Many of the old forummers here are at least a decade older if not more now and have put aside their personal animosities and dislikes either for the greater good or simply because they have mellowed over the years. Even Andrew Loh who used to hate the SDP with a vengeance has either mellowed or is able to put aside his earlier dislike of the SDP for the greater good (see http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/05/...as-just-begun/). Ditto for me, lockeliberal, and all the old gang.

I am just amaze at the level of his pettiness and continuing personal vendetta masquerading as some sort of serious analysis and the fact that he can continue to harbour this pettiness against Chee, Gomez's father, etc after more than a decade and after all these years. I am not quite sure where he gets the energy to do so. It is simply amazing. He is a complete contrast to his brother.

But I digress. I believe you got the reasons spot on. This is what I mailed (extracts of my mail below) CSJ on 29 April 2011, the day news about "relic" and "out-of-date" story broke.

"...I say without any qualms that JohnTan and Gomez are wrong to view door-to-door visits as "relics" and "out-of-date". It was an incredibly stupid thing to say...."

....Never underestimate the power of human contact, the human connection from the shake of the hands and the view of voters that you are prepared to physically slog it out to win their votes. It is not just about making good speeches from the pulpit or pumping out information from your website or visiting markets and hawker centres.

Unfortunately and ironically, John Tan's and Gomez's responses create a perception that the SDP are elitist and are unwilling to roll up their sleeves to slog it out and instead hope to sail into parliament on the coat-tails of nightly rallies, speeches and information pumped out from your website.

Please don't waste all your past efforts and sacrifices. Go out there. Visit households. Let the word spread.

As much as I am a strong supporter of the SDP, I can tell you that there is no way any SDP member will get into Parliament if you take the view that door-to-door visits are "relics" and "out-of-date".

Ask yourself honestly. Between a politician taking the effort to sweat it out, climb the stairs and visit your household and one who does not, who would you feel more obliged to give your vote to?..."


The SDP failed to court the electorate the way their PAP opponents did and the way the WP has done. Having said that, there is a positive side to this setback for the SDP. It is not a half-empty glass or an unmitigated disaster that will lead to the SDP imploding and people walking out of the party like what Sneering Scroobal would like to portray it to be. It is a half-full glass. The SDP has improved. It has got 4 out of 10 votes (HBT GRC) - that's nothing to sneer at - despite working less at the grassroots work as compared to the PAP and WP.

If they do like what you say and start knocking on doors and start courting voters the way the WP (and even the PAP) has done, I have absolutely no doubts that they can attain that 11% swing for them to win the Holland-Bukit Timah GRC (and more) in 2016.

I wish Chee and the SDP, Low TK and the WP, GMS and the NSP and all the other opposition parties every success as they continue to lead the march against the PAP.

And to Scroobal, peace be upon you my brother. Let it go. Find your inner peace.
 

steffychun

Alfrescian
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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Singaporeans do vote for a party whose Sec-Gen kicked out a good serving Man like Chiam ST. They remember.
 

PTADER

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Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Welcome back bro. I knew you could not resist. Always saying goodbye but never saying goodbye. What happened, no pm first to get me to identify myself.

Lockeliberal identity is known and Andrew Loh is his really name. Nobody stands a chance when you start divulging their inner details and passing these to your good friend the doctor in Temasek Review to write shameless article and wrecking people's lives. I am sure they too will peace. Why don't you reveal your identity to them if you are genuine with your intention. Bet you, you won't

You don't even know if I am man, women, donkey, old, young, chinese, Indian, mexican or malay. No one does. Even if you call me a faggot, a bigot or a fraud nothing will stick as no one knows who the hell I am. I have all your PM trying to suck up to me including one where I supposed to be a retired ex-ST reporter with testicular cancer. You tried to suck up to Profirio and it did not go anyway. You tried to character assassinate GMS about an imaginary incident in Ang Mo Kio and it came to bite you as a dishonest person. GMS got 42%, well what did your ilk achieve. Lets not forget you and your buddies complaining to the Mod in the delphi forum and banning us. In this forum you can't get away, so the behaviour changed. Note that your buddies and you no longer participate - why - cat got your tongue. Or you can't ban anyone.

Those who identities are known will of course be nice to you as you not only deceitful but dangerous. In essence they fear you. What can you do to me?

Look at "WP Baru", the target of your venom. They have 6 seats as MPs, not NMPs or NCMP. That's for being sincere, dedicated and hardworking. They withstood your constant barrage of allegations, innuendos and smears. Now you want to cozy up to WP and their friends.

The damage you have done cannot be undone. The same goes for the doctor pal of yours. Those who are new to the forum would not understand the damage that you have done. Trying to bury WP and NSP with smears and false allegations. Suddenly you want to bury the hatchet when the wind starts blowing the other way.

ps. love your CSI explanation on why the face on the video is not the good doctor.

Nice try at telling your usual tall tales and lies about me "revealing" names, the usual lies about Ang Mo Kio coffeeshop incident, your lies about my supposed "links" with Temasek Review, that I got people, banned, that I was "sucking" up to Profiro, you (of all people!!! :eek:), allegations, etc, etc, etc.

Best of all must be your severe delusions about forummers being "nice" to me simply because I know their names and that they "fear" me!!! :eek:

Newer forummers who may want to know the history of Scroobal may want to check out this link in order to have a sense and flavour of the man.

BTW, I am not cozying up to anyone because they won seats Scroobal. I made my peace with them and they with me way before this election, in October 2010 last year as evidenced by the link I have given above.

Also, I wrote this to yellow_people on the 3 May 2011, way before the results were known when I saw his postings.

Learn to be like your brother and me Scroobal. Stop lying. Stop being egoistic. Stop being delusional and you will not be frothing and foaming at the mouth as much and being unhappy all the while. Instead you find will inner peace and happiness and be a beautiful person just like your brother and I. :smile:

I know deep down inside you, there is a beautiful side of you struggling to emerge from the bitter foam and froth. I will be happy to help you find your inner beauty if you so desire.

Peace upon you my brother. May you realise that your "power" in this forum is as meaningless as it is ephemeral and may you find joy and happiness in your life.

God bless you my brother.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Couple of points bro.

1) SDP certainly did much better than the past.
2) Chee's approach was very different from his past style. Note his response to VB's challenge and also his sterling remarks concerning VB after the results were announced.
3) The Sembawang Team which is core SDP also achieved better results close to 13% improvement even without Ms Chee.
4) Here is what seems to stump most people - the poor performance of those not associated with SDP but come in at the last moment as tenants despite their qualifications and campaign presentation. No one expected the BT=Holland and Alec Tok to do that badly. I tend to think that this will deter other capable candidates from joining SDP for the future. This is where your comment below are relevant.

Many years ago one term became well used by supporters of SDP - "Chee is ahead of his time". After all these years, I am not so sure.

My sense is that Chee and SDP need to understand that issue and sectarian activitism is not politics and government. Networking and hotels receptions are well and fine in NGO activism but not in local politics. The other extreme is WP - they appear to struggle for money, you never hear them host a hotel function, there are no fashionistas or trend setters in WP and confrontation is not in the vocab.

The single biggest issue is the SDP does not seem to screen the people it associates with. In politics , one's character is central to any equation.


Dear PT and Scroo
Here are several other points of thought. Firstly I admire the SDP marketing collateral and its website, informative, well presented , well written, Heck compared to the WP , its presentation and packaging sucks. We look like circa 1984. But to its credit it works.

SDP Marketing.

What was that bear doing at the walk abouts as a macot ? It was soon copied by SDA and its Simbo the Ant but no one else joined on the bandwagon. KISS, Selling the democrat is about shaking hands. The bear was some marketing guru imangination run amok.

SDP Manifesto

Calling it a Shadow budget was an over inflation. A Shadow Budget makes sense when you have Numbers in parliament. Not before. Yes I know everyone calls it a Manifesto but sometimes the TRIED and Tested work. If there is no need to improve it DONT. Again a marketing gimick run amok.

Speeches During Rallies.

What is reported during the Rallies especially by a Mainstream Press more favorable counts. They were all over the place. Yes Rhetoric is fine, yes a swipe at a Minister is fine but at the end of the day not one clear message resonates. Attack a Minister if you have to but make sure it dove tails back to a nice easy catch phrase. They were at the end of the day pulling the SDP cart in different directions.
Locke
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

In all these years that Lockeliberal has been in this forum, he has been an absolute gentlemen. Never rude nor abrasive. Always attempting to give a measured repliesy or a responses. Sure his opinions in some cases are not in sync with some or all but whose is. In the main, it has been accurate or close and certainly a mark of a gentleman.

So how did he settle his differences with you. What did he do wrong? What exactly are the issues with him that you found offensive that you now in search of "inner peace" have agreed to forgive and forget. This is an extreme as an analogy but you seem to have settle your differences with Mother Theresa or Mahatma Gandhi.

You have changed your ways because you realised that you were wrong in threathening and abusing people in the old forum. Why not come right out and apologise. If you realised that the WP formula works and that GMS actually is half decent person, cough it out. If you now realise that Chiam has not been endorsed by the PAP, withdraw your remarks.

Don't indulge in the unilateral statements and comments about reconciling your differences with others when others are operating exactly the same. It's you in search of "inner peace"

You are no different from the PAP. When cornered, suddenly becoming apologetic and less arrogant. What happened to your boldness. Lets face it - if you attack WP now, people will either laugh or think you grew another head. Was it worth it making such serious allegations about WP, Chiam and GMS.

If you really that sincere, let's see a serious letter of apology to the Workers Party and another letter to Goh Meng Seng and Chiam See Tong. Until then don't give us the crap about forgetting and forgiving. If you want to forget and forgive yourself, please go right ahead.

ps. to attain your "inner peace" you can take it that I am a fraud, absolutely biased, liar and and any other adjective that will help you sleep at night.


BTW, I am not cozying up to anyone because they won seats Scroobal. I made my peace with them and they with me way before this election, in October 2010 last year as evidenced by the link I have given above.
.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

funnily enuff i did not notice much buzz over CST's comment at the start of GE11 when he claimed that CSJ had approached him to come back n join SDP, which i recall was reported in ST...did i miss something?...did CSJ n SDP ever address this claim?...
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

funnily enuff i did not notice much buzz over CST's comment at the start of GE11 when he claimed that CSJ had approached him to come back n join SDP, which i recall was reported in ST...did i miss something?...did CSJ n SDP ever address this claim?...

It's all water under the bridge for Chiam and Chee. Has been so for a long time but don't trust the Braddell Brothel to report it.

Yes, Chee invited Chiam to come back to SDP, in effect merging SPP into SDP, and even offered to bestow official founder status on him in addition to carving out a special position for him in the CEC. They were also discussing fielding a joint team for Bishan-TP GRC. After some consideration Chiam declined.
 

steffychun

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

It's the SDP image created by CSJ. He is a crazy guy who has single-handedly destroyed a party that Mr Chiam created. I've always been suspicious of his motives and I'm surprised he is still able to recruit such quality candidates.

I agree. Tan JS should kick him out and take over.
 

Rimururu

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

It's all water under the bridge for Chiam and Chee. Has been so for a long time but don't trust the Braddell Brothel to report it.

Yes, Chee invited Chiam to come back to SDP, in effect merging SPP into SDP, and even offered to bestow official founder status on him in addition to carving out a special position for him in the CEC. They were also discussing fielding a joint team for Bishan-TP GRC. After some consideration Chiam declined.

I believed it is all down to folly. Chee was young and hot-headed at that time, so he might have been very forceful and rash, which in turn, was out of line with Chiam's stance.
 

Conqueror

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

It's the SDP image created by CSJ. He is a crazy guy who has single-handedly destroyed a party that Mr Chiam created. I've always been suspicious of his motives and I'm surprised he is still able to recruit such quality candidates.



Although I don't really know what had happened to Chiam's ousted, I would rather focus on Chee's ideology of the local democracy. His way of expressing do not go down well with the uneducated lot BUT those educated and westernised ones love him. The percentage of peasants outnumbered the elite class. Being a Dr Sun Yet-san is definitely better than LTK being the Teochew village chief where there is no future for a diversified Singapore.
 

yellowarse

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

I believed it is all down to folly. Chee was young and hot-headed at that time, so he might have been very forceful and rash, which in turn, was out of line with Chiam's stance.

Actually it wasn't Chee who ousted Chiam. Chee was on a hunger strike at the time, and SDP stalwarts like Ling and Cheo took advantage of the situation to force Chiam out through a CEC vote. After Chiam sued, got reinstated and resigned, Chee actually asked him reconsider his resignation.

Apparently Chiam was too autocratic for some of the senior CEC members, hence the ouster.

One more thing: even though Chiam privately didn't approve of the hunger strike, publicly he backed Chee throughout and even had a doctor personally attend to Chee.
 
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Conqueror

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Actually it wasn't Chee who ousted Chiam. Chee was on a hunger strike at the time, and SDP stalwarts like Ling and Cheo took advantage of the situation to force Chiam out through a CEC vote. After Chiam sued, got reinstated and resigned, Chee actually asked him reconsider his resignation.

Apparently Chiam was too autocratic for some of the senior CEC members, hence the ouster.

One more thing: even though Chiam privately didn't approve of the hunger strike, publicly he backed Chee throughout and even had a doctor personally attend to Chee.



If this is the case, then what is the problem ? Chee is a good guy, right ? Why do people hate Chee for being a goody ? Chiam may have some problems with the members in general. Chiam is just a star like Nicole. You can't possibly vote for a star, right ? Unless the star has got a penchant for PAP bashing. I'll vote him in !
 

yellowarse

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

At the end of the day, both Chee and Chiam have Singapore's best interests at heart, though they have very different leadership styles. Chiam is more autocratic, Chee more democratic (notice how Chee's guys stand by him through lawsuits, jail and bankruptcy?).

But Chee's been demonized by the press, so he's the bad guy in the eye of the electorate. This has a lot to do with old fart who once said that there were 2 people he wouldn't allow into parliament: JBJ and CSJ.
 

Rimururu

Alfrescian
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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Actually it wasn't Chee who ousted Chiam. Chee was on a hunger strike at the time, and SDP stalwarts like Ling and Cheo took advantage of the situation to force Chiam out through a CEC vote. After Chiam sued, got reinstated and resigned, Chee actually asked him reconsider his resignation.

Apparently Chiam was too autocratic for some of the senior CEC members, hence the ouster.

One more thing: even though Chiam privately didn't approve of the hunger strike, publicly he backed Chee throughout and even had a doctor personally attend to Chee.

True, the CEC took advantage of both Chiam's and Chee's tiff. But anyway, I believe Chee is not a bad man, just that at time he was hot-headed and impatient, being young at that time. Chiam, being older and more matured, could not stand it and hence the spat. Ling is now out of the political arena, after being exposed to being an idiot in parliament. Cheo is slightly better. But what really matters, is both Chee and Chiam has put it behind them and respect each other different styles.

If Chiam was autocratic, it was natural for people born in the 20s and 30s to behave that way, even LKY behaves like an emperor in PAP. Back in those days, one has to show might to survive.
 

steffychun

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

SDP has a shit defence policy. Reduce NS is popular, how will they defend Singapore?
 

scroobal

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Chee is an enigma at best of times. Even his ex-schoolmates could not read him.




If this is the case, then what is the problem ? Chee is a good guy, right ? Why do people hate Chee for being a goody ? Chiam may have some problems with the members in general. Chiam is just a star like Nicole. You can't possibly vote for a star, right ? Unless the star has got a penchant for PAP bashing. I'll vote him in !
 

steffychun

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

Chee is an enigma at best of times. Even his ex-schoolmates could not read him.

Actually I've always wondered--no ex-classmates (school and uni) have ever voiced their views of the PAP members and Oppo members. For eg., no former uni coure mate of LHL has ever talked about him? Are they scared of being sued? How come no one from Cambridge and Harvard dare talk about LHL?
 

Cruxx

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Re: What went terribly wrong in Holland-BT for the best qualified opposit team in the

SDP has a shit defence policy. Reduce NS is popular, how will they defend Singapore?

Privatise the army. And not forgetting GIC and all GLCs. Liberate the populace through a mix of anarcho-capitalism and intellectualism.
 
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