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ST Kinetics to make weapons overseas, more lay offs coming.

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
how about leasing??

Leasing is only a temporary plan for armies that need it. They almost always buy the weapons they lease or something else.

I think that a mistake was made when the SAF negotiated training facilities overseas. They have them in Australia, Brunei, Thailand, Indonesia, India, ROC, etc. Some countries like Brunei might charge the SAF a token amount to use their country to house the training facility. But others charge the SAF a sizeable amount of money to use their bases. Instead of paying money for them, the SAF should have exchanged weapons for the use of the facilities. They did that a bit with the Thais when they gave them the old F-16 A/B models for the use of Udon Thani Air Base for x number of years. They good have given the Indons some AMX-13 for the use of Pekan Baru by the RSAF, or Pegasus 155mm Howitzers to India for the armour training, or Bionix for the Phillippines if they let us use Clarke Airbase again, or just provide ammo made by ST Kinetics as compensation to the countries hosting us. That way, ST Kinetics does get some over seas sales by an indirect way. i.e. SAF orders the ammo or vehicles, and donates them to the countries hosting us. If they like it, they may place follow orders directly with ST.
 

sleaguepunter

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
SAF Leo2 was a lousy choice considering saf warplanner always assume enemy number 1 is up north. One of the reason Kor Armor Diraja (KAD) brought the upgraded T72 was the weight. most of the bridges in the country have weight limit under 50tons which the 42tons T72 has no problem moving across. But the 62tons Leo2 will have problems crossing the numerous waterways that dotted the countryside. I still don't understand why SM1 were retired without another alternative light tank. Stridsfordon 90 will be a good choice as it design to fight in thick vegetation.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
SAF Leo2 was a lousy choice considering saf warplanner always assume enemy number 1 is up north. One of the reason Kor Armor Diraja (KAD) brought the upgraded T72 was the weight. most of the bridges in the country have weight limit under 50tons which the 42tons T72 has no problem moving across. But the 62tons Leo2 will have problems crossing the numerous waterways that dotted the countryside. I still don't understand why SM1 were retired without another alternative light tank. Stridsfordon 90 will be a good choice as it design to fight in thick vegetation.

I am pretty sure that the Leo 2 was not the SAF's choice at all. Do you not consider it strange that there was no competition to find the right MBT for the SAF? Consider that when the RSAF were looking for a replacement strike aircraft, they conducted trials with all the possible candidates including the Rafale, Grippen, Typhoon, Super Hornet, etc. Before they settled on the F-15.

Should not armour be trialing Leclerc, Merk 4, M1, T-72, etc, in Area D to find the best possible MBT? Instead they just awarded the purchase to Kraus Maffei and the Leo 2. This is a totally unproven tank in combat, other then a couple of IED attacks on it in Astan. In one of the IED attacks, the driver was killed, prompting the Germans to add belly armour to the Leo 2A7+ mods. We don't have this problem with M1, Merks, T-72, etc as there is a wealth of combat data on them. You sure as hell do not want to bring this tank into a tank vs tank, and find out that there is a fatal weakness somewhere in the design. Now, if you believe Hans168, and I do, the reason for the SAF only going with the Leo 2 is because of the after market mods that ST Kinetics and Diesenroth could charge the SAF. These included extensive armour upgrades using Dieseroth's AMAPS, and other upgrades inside the turret. if they had bought any other tank other then the Leo 2, the makers would tell them to fuck off as all upgrades would have been done by the parent company. Therefore in this case, I am sure that the tail is wagging the dog. i.e. ST Kinetics is telling SAF what to buy. Its the same for the Bionix too, i am thinking off the top of my head, at least 3 other IFVs that are superior to it.

Regarding the KAD buying the PT-91, i believe at that time, there were 3 considerations. One was the cost, the Poles sold it at a very competitive price. Then they were willing to take Palm Oil delivery as an offset to the cost. And the last is the weight as you mention, as well as the need for only a 3 man crew. But in terms of this terrain and urban environment, its more suitable then a 60 tonnes + tank like the Leo. Unlike the desert environment or open fields of europe, around this terrain, you cannot pick off an enemy tank at 4000m ranges using your superior optics, gun, and ballistic computer. Around here, I reckon engagement ranges will rarely exceed 2000m, more likely in the 1000m range give or take 250m. At this range, the T-72 with its 125mm gun and APFSDS round will kill any Leo just as surely as any decent MBT. At these shorter ranges, any advantages that the Leo has over the PT-91 is largely negated in my opinion.

The retirement of the AMX-13 is also a big mystery to me. It should only be retired after a light tank was found and put into service to replace it on a one for one basis. But ST Eng fucked up the light tank design so badly, I think they gave up on it. And even though the AMX-13 was upgraded to the SM1 standard, the threat environment has changed so much in the last 20 years that really, in all honesty, if we had gone to war with it, it would have been a rolling coffin on tracks for many of our boys. So, I guess they decided to retire it, but not scrap it from what I understand.
 

Leckmichamarsch

Alfrescian
Loyal
Leasing is only a temporary plan for armies that need it. They almost always buy the weapons they lease or something else.

I think that a mistake was made when the SAF negotiated training facilities overseas. They have them in Australia, Brunei, Thailand, Indonesia, India, ROC, etc. Some countries like Brunei might charge the SAF a token amount to use their country to house the training facility. But others charge the SAF a sizeable amount of money to use their bases. Instead of paying money for them, the SAF should have exchanged weapons for the use of the facilities. They did that a bit with the Thais when they gave them the old F-16 A/B models for the use of Udon Thani Air Base for x number of years. They good have given the Indons some AMX-13 for the use of Pekan Baru by the RSAF, or Pegasus 155mm Howitzers to India for the armour training, or Bionix for the Phillippines if they let us use Clarke Airbase again, or just provide ammo made by ST Kinetics as compensation to the countries hosting us. That way, ST Kinetics does get some over seas sales by an indirect way. i.e. SAF orders the ammo or vehicles, and donates them to the countries hosting us. If they like it, they may place follow orders directly with ST.


You are simply brilliant............ why can't those shithead think of such innovative bartering.........??
 

Leckmichamarsch

Alfrescian
Loyal
SAF Leo2 was a lousy choice considering saf warplanner always assume enemy number 1 is up north. One of the reason Kor Armor Diraja (KAD) brought the upgraded T72 was the weight. most of the bridges in the country have weight limit under 50tons which the 42tons T72 has no problem moving across. But the 62tons Leo2 will have problems crossing the numerous waterways that dotted the countryside. I still don't understand why SM1 were retired without another alternative light tank. Stridsfordon 90 will be a good choice as it design to fight in thick vegetation.

choice dictated by how it benefits me personally....................HUAT AH
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
You are simply brilliant............ why can't those shithead think of such innovative bartering.........??

Thank you for saying so. Bartering in the arms industry is not as rare as many people think. Bartering on large ticket items is expected. In addition to the Palm oil example I gave above, i seem to recall that Iran also bartered oil for Chinese and Russian weapons. But these are bureaucrats and scholar generals you are talking about. They are not interested in saving the taxpayer any money at all. They want the latest shining toys and get their commission and kick backs from arms dealers after paying full price. In many cases, bartering removes alot of the elements of corruption from arms deals. Perhaps that is why the PAP will not use it.

Case in point is the Pegasus 155mm Howitzer that Indians like alot. They liked it so much, they actually ordered it. The ordered was killed off when it was discovered that ST Kinetics bribed an Indian official to win the contract. What if the SAF said to the Indians, "we give you one battery of Pegasus for free. You deploy it in the Himalayas along your border with China and see how you like it. Just buy the ammo from us at a fixed contract price. In exchange, you allow us to use your tank range and armour training facilities for X number of years for free". If they like the Pegasus, they can order more directly from ST. I don't see how the Indians would refuse such an offer. ST being a GLC has the luxury to do such things because they are not under a quarterly shareholder profit pressure like Boeing, Lockheed, etc. They can take the long term view and look at the high possibility of follow on orders.

The whole problem is that MINDEF and the PAP seem to get a free pass from the stupid citizens when it comes to defence spending. It is by far the largest ticket item in the budget, over $16 billion a year, and yet no oppo party has a defence critic to go over it with a microscope. To this day, I still do not know what is the military threat to singapore despite my asking everyone of senior rank that I know (and that includes a full bird colonel former CIO). How can a Colonel in the SAF not be able to articulate to me what the threat is? Every dollar spend on submarines, F-15, Leo 2, etc, goes to the economy of another country. It goes to support jobs in another country. Its one less dollar that can be spend on health and education in this country. the enormity of what the PAP is getting away with is mind boggling. I know the real reason why they have such a large military and so many fancy toys, but its an obscene reason. And its really disgusting that the PAP will do this shit at the taxpayer expense.
 

Leckmichamarsch

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thank you for saying so. Bartering in the arms industry is not as rare as many people think. Bartering on large ticket items is expected. In addition to the Palm oil example I gave above, i seem to recall that Iran also bartered oil for Chinese and Russian weapons. But these are bureaucrats and scholar generals you are talking about. They are not interested in saving the taxpayer any money at all. They want the latest shining toys and get their commission and kick backs from arms dealers after paying full price. In many cases, bartering removes alot of the elements of corruption from arms deals. Perhaps that is why the PAP will not use it.

Case in point is the Pegasus 155mm Howitzer that Indians like alot. They liked it so much, they actually ordered it. The ordered was killed off when it was discovered that ST Kinetics bribed an Indian official to win the contract. What if the SAF said to the Indians, "we give you one battery of Pegasus for free. You deploy it in the Himalayas along your border with China and see how you like it. Just buy the ammo from us at a fixed contract price. In exchange, you allow us to use your tank range and armour training facilities for X number of years for free". If they like the Pegasus, they can order more directly from ST. I don't see how the Indians would refuse such an offer. ST being a GLC has the luxury to do such things because they are not under a quarterly shareholder profit pressure like Boeing, Lockheed, etc. They can take the long term view and look at the high possibility of follow on orders.

The whole problem is that MINDEF and the PAP seem to get a free pass from the stupid citizens when it comes to defence spending. It is by far the largest ticket item in the budget, over $16 billion a year, and yet no oppo party has a defence critic to go over it with a microscope. To this day, I still do not know what is the military threat to singapore despite my asking everyone of senior rank that I know (and that includes a full bird colonel former CIO). How can a Colonel in the SAF not be able to articulate to me what the threat is? Every dollar spend on submarines, F-15, Leo 2, etc, goes to the economy of another country. It goes to support jobs in another country. Its one less dollar that can be spend on health and education in this country. the enormity of what the PAP is getting away with is mind boggling. I know the real reason why they have such a large military and so many fancy toys, but its an obscene reason. And its really disgusting that the PAP will do this shit at the taxpayer expense.


I recall Najib as Minister of Defence paid for his polish or russian tank (with reactive armour....T>>>??) in palm oil

Hey bro I think you shud be sitting on EVP Patrick's chair in ST ...............
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
I recall Najib as Minister of Defence paid for his polish or russian tank (with reactive armour....T>>>??) in palm oil

Hey bro I think you shud be sitting on EVP Patrick's chair in ST ...............

Yes he did. That was a shrewd piece of business by Najib, but then again, he is a businessman first and a politician second. Whereas PAP and the GLCs are bureaucrats. Big diff. The problem with ST and the senior management and even the PAP in general is that they want to do the sexy deals, the big new deals. That is why they are so focused on selling the Bionix 2, Terrex 2 to the Marines, etc. These are low percentage deals. They achieve some success with the Bronco to the UK, but that was more providence then anything else. Money can be made by doing the low tech deals. I don't see why they cannot offer an upgrade package to the Indons for their AMX-13s, similar to the SM1 standard. The Indons have over 250 AMX-13. ST did the upgrades for the SAF's AMX in the late 80s, they could have offered it to the Indons in the 90s. Its a low tech deal, they could have accepted crude oil or LNG in payment. Anything to make it work. After all, ST already had an assembly line to upgrade the SAF tanks, what's a few more Indon tanks. Instead now, the Indons went and upgraded their own AMX-13 in 2014 and it looks pretty good. They took the turret of the Austrian SK 105 Kuraissier and mated it to the AMX-13 chassis. Now, they have a 105mm rifled gun in an AMX-13 with a modern diesel engine and other upgrades. ST is acknowledged to be the world leader in AMX-13 tanks, how they did not get this contract (or did they even try) is beyond me. But give credit to the Indons for being innovative. For USD$900K, they got an upgraded AMX-13 with a navistar turbo diesel, a new transmission, new ballistic computer/range finder, and a 105mm CN-105-57 gun.
 

Leckmichamarsch

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes he did. That was a shrewd piece of business by Najib, but then again, he is a businessman first and a politician second. Whereas PAP and the GLCs are bureaucrats. Big diff. The problem with ST and the senior management and even the PAP in general is that they want to do the sexy deals, the big new deals. That is why they are so focused on selling the Bionix 2, Terrex 2 to the Marines, etc. These are low percentage deals. They achieve some success with the Bronco to the UK, but that was more providence then anything else. Money can be made by doing the low tech deals. I don't see why they cannot offer an upgrade package to the Indons for their AMX-13s, similar to the SM1 standard. The Indons have over 250 AMX-13. ST did the upgrades for the SAF's AMX in the late 80s, they could have offered it to the Indons in the 90s. Its a low tech deal, they could have accepted crude oil or LNG in payment. Anything to make it work. After all, ST already had an assembly line to upgrade the SAF tanks, what's a few more Indon tanks. Instead now, the Indons went and upgraded their own AMX-13 in 2014 and it looks pretty good. They took the turret of the Austrian SK 105 Kuraissier and mated it to the AMX-13 chassis. Now, they have a 105mm rifled gun in an AMX-13 with a modern diesel engine and other upgrades. ST is acknowledged to be the world leader in AMX-13 tanks, how they did not get this contract (or did they even try) is beyond me. But give credit to the Indons for being innovative. For USD$900K, they got an upgraded AMX-13 with a navistar turbo diesel, a new transmission, new ballistic computer/range finder, and a 105mm CN-105-57 gun.



Looks like Indon catching up fast what STK can & were doing........... there is a saying among Chinese Indon that when the m&ds not long wear sarong but paints,,,,,,,,,,,, Chinese there will hv no biz opps
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Looks like Indon catching up fast what STK can & were doing........... there is a saying among Chinese Indon that when the m&ds not long wear sarong but paints,,,,,,,,,,,, Chinese there will hv no biz opps

On the lower end stuff like licensed manufacture of small arms, and ammo, they are probably same level as us. But they make stuff they need to supply their own army. ST makes stuff to try and sell overseas, big diff.
 

Hans168

Alfrescian
Loyal
On the lower end stuff like licensed manufacture of small arms, and ammo, they are probably same level as us. But they make stuff they need to supply their own army. ST makes stuff to try and sell overseas, big diff.

probably much like sg their armed forces find that it is a lot cheaper & product quality more reliable than to buy overseas.......... SAF stopped buying from CIS long long ago due to price & quality issues. They have so much substandard rejected lots of 5.56mm that the only way out was to use them in pressure testing of the rifle barrels BUT costing was at full rate!!! Wow..

One key reason was that they were doing concuss brass rod foundry production at a scale so low that there was no economy of scale. Also the cartiridge casing tended to have skin peeling off albeit in small patches....... soo much for pioneer scholars running the place like Lai Choon Loong who was caught by his wife to be dipping his fountain pen in office ink bottle & wife complained and he was ordered by big bitch to be moved to Sembcorp spontaneously........
 
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