Slot games, Casino Rewards & Privileges

[Mindless]

Personally, I play Max line and if there is a Power play option, I will also go for it.

Max Line is to catch as many full house as possible. This is because the Paytable for full house vs 3 or 4 column win is vastly different. For eg, for 5D, the 5 phoenix pays 1000, and 4 phoenix pays 100 and 3 phoenix pays 50. So if I play 5 lines/10 lines/15 lines vs 25 lines on 1 credit per line, I can save from 10-20 credits per bet. But potentially, I can miss the full house which pays 1000 and only get 100 or 50 credits payout. i.e. the opportunity cost is between 900-950 credits. I am quite bothered by the opportunity loss and hence I will always play max line and 90% of the time, I will pay additional for the Power Play.

All said, I agree with Bro Kia that if stretching BR is priority, then it would better to play less lines.

 

[aurvandil]

Max Line is to catch as many full house as possible. This is because the Paytable for full house vs 3 or 4 column win is vastly different. For eg, for 5D, the 5 phoenix pays 1000, and 4 phoenix pays 100 and 3 phoenix pays 50. So if I play 5 lines/10 lines/15 lines vs 25 lines on 1 credit per line, I can save from 10-20 credits per bet. But potentially, I can miss the full house which pays 1000 and only get 100 or 50 credits payout. i.e. the opportunity cost is between 900-950 credits. I am quite bothered by the opportunity loss and hence I will always play max line and 90% of the time, I will pay additional for the Power Play.

You might want to consider reviewing this a bit.

If you play 25x1 and you strike a 5 phoneix, you win 1000.
if you play 5x5 and you strike a 4 phoneix, you win 500. Even a 3 phoneix gives you a nice 250.

Which play is better thererfore depends on the underlying probabilty.

It is impossible to determine this by just looking at the pay tables since the pay tables don't reveal the probability.

It is however clear that it is close to statistically impossible for the payout to be consistent for all combinations.

To determine which is better, you need to run Monte Carlo simulations that play the game thousands if not millions of times. The simulations I have run show that

1) The max line is usually one of the worst performing. I have a hypothesis that they design it such because Max line play is one of the most popular among slot players.
2) The best performing number of lines varies from game to game . It is usually somewhere in the middle.
3) 5 lines is not the absolute best but it gives a decent return across a wide number of games I have tested.

 

[jjcc888]

Hi jjcc88,
The great exchange is back again 6AM-6PM Fri ~ Sun and if you are going to the casino this Fri, just head to PA counter and check how much you can convert your PD to slot credits. 5D Machine 1110 & 1109 still remain friendly, you may like to try.
Thanks for the links to those online slot games, hope to see more Aristocrat games available online.

Thanks

Well I finally got my card renewed - now no more Premier Advantage but instead Sands Rewards Club [change of name only ?]

Started at 5D 1110 and in barely half hour - with my 2nd $50 note (1st Tier $100 BR) managed to get over $200
ie. slight profit plus $100 Daily Levy earned back >> Nett Positive
BUT do you expect me to leave just after half an hour ????
Had planned to play around 3 hours - to make it for my 4pm facial appointment

So as usual longer play means initial wins would turn into losses
2nd Machine was a COE 2cts slot outside Fatt Choi area [other end]
Ended up losing $500 Total BR in wallet

Went to PA Counter and could only exchange $125 Slot Credits
Used up some PDs at Tong Dim (simple lunch)

Then went over to my fav Diamonds & Roses
DID manage to get back over $250 cash BUT ultimately last-minute continued play saw a $100 note being lost
So Final Tally : only $150 balance cash in wallet
"TOTAL LOSS" = $500-150=$350 + $125 slot credit + $100 Daily Levy = $575
Still considered 'disciplined' bc didn't do any ATM WDs and using 'much much lowered BR' compared with the initial days

Itchy fart .... mmmm .... IF I could only leave just after that half-hour play or so :o:(
But how could I .... sighs :o

Anyway after my facial, I switched/upgraded my package and swiped my credit card for MORE than 5x my $575 Casino Loss .... these high-end facials (on Xmas Promo) should last me the next 2 years ... sighzzzz :p
(ooops .... really an easy target .... HOW to save money like this ..... sighzzzzz)
But then again supposed such do have a form of RETURN compared to the casinos ?

Tomorrow Sat have the 1st of my Mani-Pedicure Deals - to be done together with my friend
Hopefully with company we would we able to resist any Hard-Sell to sign on etc
The coming weeks are packed-full of Deal Appointments : for facials, hair, trip, meals, etc .....
Wow this Dec month - every week at least one facial (thank goodness they're for different various functions/types !) ..... lots of pampering etc ....

 

[Kia0042]

You might want to consider reviewing this a bit.

If you play 25x1 and you strike a 5 phoneix, you win 1000.
if you play 5x5 and you strike a 4 phoneix, you win 500. Even a 3 phoneix gives you a nice 250.

Which play is better thererfore depends on the underlying probabilty.

You recall me about JesterPete style, 1,3,7 credit lines bet, oh I really hate this style. Want to "chop a big tree with a penknife"? Maybe it is possbile, just need to "wait long long". This guy who "invented" JP style eventually admitted that his style does not work actually, it is only suitable for low BR players to delay their play time.
I think JP style is suitable at FFF and CE machines too:p. especially to those uncles and aunties who play there for the whole day with $100 BR. Hmmm, perhaps I should try JS DELUXE style (1,3,7 x 20bet) on my Sunday morning shift, the grand JP is 154k last evening, hope it is still there on Sunday. :p

Remember those days we played slot at AA and country clubs, the 20cts and 50cts 1 line Panda, Toucan, Sport Car, Mask machines, etc... for almost 10+ years I played those machines I have never hit full house highest symbol. I only managed to hit the full house highest symbol when they introduced 3 lines and 5lines bet.

 

[HellBoy]

One of the first jackpot i played was the mechanical type - the classic fruits jackpot with cherry, lemon, orange, bell etc.
The machince is at the back of a old shop house somewhere in Tanjong Pagar. 10c per game.

It would be nice to own one of these antique somedays.

 

[aurvandil]

You recall me about JesterPete style, 1,3,7 credit lines bet, oh I really hate this style. Want to "chop a big tree with a penknife"? Maybe it is possbile, just need to "wait long long". This guy who "invented" JP style eventually admitted that his style does not work actually, it is only suitable for low BR players to delay their play time.

Do you happen to have a url link to his original postings on slot machines forum? Always keen to understand new methods and ideas. As I undestand from the later postings, it is supposed to be for Wicked Winnings 1/2.

My method is not really "chop a big tree with a pen knife". What you are doing is go after a different specturm of the payoff table.

If you are playing 25x1, you are going after the full house for the symbols. If these hit, you generally end the session ahead. If you don't get any full house, you bleed money because the 3 and 4 scores are generally not enough to cover what you are pumping into the machine.

If you are playing 5x5, you are NOT going after the full house. Because you get 5x the payout whenever you strike, you can easily win money with just high 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind strikes. Another advantage of 5x5 are the scatters. If you hit a scatter, you get 5x the payout as compared to a payout of just 1x if you are playing 25x1. Finally for the feature, 5x5 shines if the feature is triggered by a scatter followed by a game where you randomly select choices (e.g. Village People, The Price is Right, Lemings). As these usually payout based on the credits you are playing, you get 5x the payout. Even if the feature are free spins, the method can hold its own against 25x1. This is because just one or two 3 or 4 strikes means that you get a decent 5x return.

If you want to put the method on steriods, maybe you can try 5xMax Credit (100?).

 

[Kia0042]

Do you happen to have a url link to his original postings on slot machines forum? Always keen to understand new methods and ideas. As I undestand from the later postings, it is supposed to be for Wicked Winnings 1/2.

Just make a search by username JesterPete to retrieve his posts.

If you are playing 5x5, you are NOT going after the full house. Because you get 5x the payout whenever you strike, you can easily win money with just high 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind strikes. Another advantage of 5x5 are the scatters. If you hit a scatter, you get 5x the payout as compared to a payout of just 1x if you are playing 25x1. Finally for the feature, 5x5 shines if the feature is triggered by a scatter followed by a game where you randomly select choices (e.g. Village People, The Price is Right, Lemings). As these usually payout based on the credits you are playing, you get 5x the payout. Even if the feature are free spins, the method can hold its own against 25x1. This is because just one or two 3 or 4 strikes means that you get a decent 5x return.

If you want to put the method on steriods, maybe you can try 5xMax Credit (100?).

Your theory sounds right however you may not get what you want during the real play. It often happens in this way, you bet full, you hit only 3 or 4 of a kind and when you cheat the bet lines, you miss 5 of a kind.

If you want to put the method on steriods, maybe you can try 5xMax Credit (100?).

I may try someday on WMV machines because I don't like them and not familiar with the pay lines.

 

[aurvandil]

Your theory sounds right however you may not get what you want during the real play. It often happens in this way, you bet full, you hit only 3 or 4 of a kind and when you cheat the bet lines, you miss 5 of a kind. :mad

As mentioned previously, I have been using 5x5 sucessfully in Genting. I have been using it to roll over the RM 3k PP package as well as the daily RM 200 package. Every 3 day 2 nights, I will roll about RM 3600. My average loss playing 5x5 is RM 200 to RM 500. Considering I get the Resort room for free, 2 free Coffee Terrace buffet and the rest of my meals covered using coupons/GP, I would say I have been beating Uncle Lim fairly consistently.

On WMS machines, they are my preferred slots as I find 5x5 performs the best on them. Added bonus is that they are usually not linked to a progressive jackpot. It doesn't do so well on Aristocrat machines. Also in Genting, it is very hard to find non hyperlink Aristocrat machines.

 

[aurvandil]

Just make a search by username JesterPete to retrieve his posts.

I have been reviewing his posts. He doesn't seem to be trying to find the optimum number of reels to play. Instead he seems to be a Wicked Winnings fan. He is trying to maximize his play time. In doing so, he found that playing 1-3 reels 7 cents does not appear to be inferior to the max reel play favoured by other players.

I never like Aristocrat machines such as Wicked Winnings coz it is difficult to figure out the math model and gain an advantage. When I play Aristocrat, it is usually classics like Geisha and Queen of the Nile. Aristocrat math models tend to be flatter than WMS as the features for many of their games are triggered by symbols on paylines. When triggered, you usually get free spins. This negates the advantages of 5x5 which I had earlier posted.

 

[Kia0042]

You may like to try your method on Konami China Shore, this game does not require full lines betting yet when you trigger 3 scatters within your play lines, the feature will activate all the play lines.
I tried WMV Samurai II (B1 near 1109) last evening, played your method, that is cheat lines - 9lines X Max, $300 for 15mins play only, Hmmmmm, hit nothing or did I missed something? I am not sure coz not familiar with the pay lines. Anyway, I may try again as this machine sometimes pay pretty well, not to me, to other players. :p

 

[Mindless]

Totally "slotted" [meant slaughted] yesterday. Went back to play all the games that I have done well previously, but nothing I played yesterday was right, except for once when I hit a FH of "Chai+A" X10 on 5K. I was the Santa Claus yesterday sigh.

Would love to try out Aurvandil's theory one of these days. Hmm.

Anyone play IGT's 100 Wolves and 100 Panda. I have seen many Max Play on the 2c ($10). It is very difficult to get free games features. However, the payline is exceptional when you get many stacked wilds.

Cheers and good luck.

 

[aurvandil]

You may like to try your method on Konami China Shore, this game does not require full lines betting yet when you trigger 3 scatters within your play lines, the feature will activate all the play lines.
I tried WMV Samurai II (B1 near 1109) last evening, played your method, that is cheat lines - 9lines X Max, $300 for 15mins play only, Hmmmmm, hit nothing or did I missed something? I am not sure coz not familiar with the pay lines. Anyway, I may try again as this machine sometimes pay pretty well, not to me, to other players. :p

Great you are trying it out. Will look out for Konami China Shore as it sounds like the type of machine that will work well with my method.

WMS Samurai Master is a great game to play this method. As is Crystal Forest and Jungle Wild.

Because you are "cheating" on the lines, you will not strike as often as compared as to when you are playing max lines. You therefore need to preserve your capital and play until you hit 1 or 2 features and the max credit advantage can kick in. As WMS games features are usually triggered by scatters, you are not losing out by not playing max lines since you would not have gotten any features even if you had played max lines.

For Samurai Master, the feature when triggered is extremely advantageous as

1) It is triggered by a scatter
2) After the feature is triggered, there are stacked wilds and you can get 2 to 3 of the first reels filled with nothing but wilds. When this happens, a humble 5x5 or 25 credit bet can yield up to 10k credits. If you are playing max credit, the payout will be really solid.

 

[aurvandil]

Would love to try out Aurvandil's theory one of these days. Hmm.

Hope you try it out and write some field reports. At the end of the day, 5x5 is only 25 credits. If you are playing 5 cents, it works out to only $1.25 per spin. That's not a very big slot bet and you can probably play 1 to 2 hours without burning a big hole.

I have done lots of time motion studies in Genting so I can even calculate your expected loss.

If you playing 5x5 on a 5 cents machine, you will roughly roll about $1,000 in 1 hour.

CRA specifies that the minimum payout for slots is 90%.

Assuming that the casino set the minimum 90%, this means you can expect to lose $100 if you play non stop for 1 hour.

Based on this, you can then estimate the amount you can expect to lose based on the time you intend you play.

Over in Genting, I balance this out by the fact that I get free room and free food. Hence even though I lose RM 200 to RM 500 every time I go up and play the RM 3K PP package, I end up beating the casino since the value of the free room and food is much more than what I am losing to the casino.

And yes ... lots of people have stared at me wondering why I am using a stop watch when I play slots. The slot attendants also circle around me suspiciously.

 

[hotrocks]

Hi everyone...fresh face coming in..

Have been tracking the thread for sometime....and had some niggling questions which I am unable to get anwers from the net. Hence, created an account and here I am posting away!!

Before that, common courtesy dictates that I should intro myself abit eh...I used to think that slots are for suckers (pardon my language). I prefered table games. However, sometimes I play the slots for fun when 1. I won enough from table games 2. I lost a lot from table games 3. While waiting for my friends to go home. So slots were like FOR passing time. But..i soon reliased that ....I actually do quite well in slots. I can honestly say most times I made small losses from slots, unlike table games.

So, I began to think maybe my luck is playing these machines rather than going against the croupiers. So I began playing slots more often, often to the chuckles of my friends..you know la...aiyoh sucker la you..its all fixed..you can never win the machines..blah blah blah. But..the more I pay..I find that actually I can win some rather than losing all the time. I know its luck..as its the RNG which determines whether you are a winner or not..but maybe I am just a wee bit lucky most of the time on slots.

So the purpose of my post here is to dig some answers which I tried googling. I know the machines are programmed to payout at 90%. My question is, how the machines computes the winnings. E.g ...assuming I won like 5000 credits on a spin. I then gamble it...I lose. Does the machine still counts that it had paid out 5k credits or it will deemed that no win happened? Also, RNG dictates the winning spin, but does it dictates the gamble (red /black)? If it does, does it mean that whatever my choice is during the gamble, the results are the same? red or black makes no diff?

Thanks to anyone whom is able to reply. My apologies if the question has been posted before...

Now go get the JP.........guys. Good luck

 

[aurvandil]

in the past, there was a lot of discussion about whether casinos could remotely change the payouts with the new wireless server based machines. There were also hints that the technology had evolved to batch jobs that automatically change the payouts for whole batches of machines.

A poster on slot machines forum has now proof that this technology exists and has been deployed in the Las Vegas casinos. Check out the discussion here:

http://www.slotmachinesforum.com/sh...-Payout-percentages-can-be-changed-on-the-fly.

Over in Genting, I notice that I tend to be a bit more lucky from 6 pm to around 9 pm. As Genting is on a mountain, there are a lot of day trippers. Past 9 pm, it becomes difficult to make it back to KL. My hypothesis is that they might losen the slots a bit to encourage people to stay and play a bit more.

Also from the postings, I get the impression that slot players here tend to do a lot worse during big holidays like CNY where the casinos are packed to the brim and they have to roll out the snaking queue lines to manage the crowd.

 

[aurvandil]

So the purpose of my post here is to dig some answers which I tried googling. I know the machines are programmed to payout at 90%. My question is, how the machines computes the winnings. E.g ...assuming I won like 5000 credits on a spin. I then gamble it...I lose. Does the machine still counts that it had paid out 5k credits or it will deemed that no win happened? Also, RNG dictates the winning spin, but does it dictates the gamble (red /black)? If it does, does it mean that whatever my choice is during the gamble, the results are the same? red or black makes no diff?

This is one of the fallacies of many gamblers. There is the thinking that

a) I have $1000
b) I have lost $400 on slots
c) The slots have a payback of 90%
d) This means that if I continue playing, I will eventually win back $300 to achieve a payback of 90%.

There are 2 main flaws in the logic. These are:

1) The RNG in slots are memoryless. This means that what has happened before has no impact on the next spin. Hence regardless of whether you have been wining or losing, the probability of winning or losing on the next spin is exactly the same. The CRA payout requirements for 90% means that if I were to take the machine and subject it to large numbers test (e.g. play it for 1 million rounds), the payout will be at least 90%.

2) If you started with $1,000 but have lost $400, it does mean that you have lost 40%. You payout needs to be determinded by the how long you have been playing the game. Using the time motion statistics I had provided earlier, you will roll about $1000 for every hour you play 5x5 on a 5 cents machines. Hence if you start with a bankroll of $1000 and play for 4 hours, you are effectively betting $1,000x4=$4,000. Assuming a payback of 90%, this means that you can expect to lose $400 for the 4 hours of play.

 

[hotrocks]

in the past, there was a lot of discussion about whether casinos could remotely change the payouts with the new wireless server based machines. There were also hints that the technology had evolved to batch jobs that automatically change the payouts for whole batches of machines.

A poster on slot machines forum has now proof that this technology exists and has been deployed in the Las Vegas casinos. Check out the discussion here:

http://www.slotmachinesforum.com/sh...-Payout-percentages-can-be-changed-on-the-fly.

Over in Genting, I notice that I tend to be a bit more lucky from 6 pm to around 9 pm. As Genting is on a mountain, there are a lot of day trippers. Past 9 pm, it becomes difficult to make it back to KL. My hypothesis is that they might losen the slots a bit to encourage people to stay and play a bit more.

Also from the postings, I get the impression that slot players here tend to do a lot worse during big holidays like CNY where the casinos are packed to the brim and they have to roll out the snaking queue lines to manage the crowd.

Hi Aurvandil..

Thanks for the reply mate. Much appreciate it. So, it is settled then...winning or losing on slots is 100% luck, as RNG is random. Hence, how do we know which machines are "loose" or "tight" then since RNG is totally random? I always believe that the slot will give back some monies after you "feed" it...guess its from my previous experiance playing "Cherry Master".
Kinda explains why on one occasion ..I stuffed RM2k in a machine and got like RM200 back...

Would like to try your 5x5 method one of these days. Another question.. do you prefer to play ..stand alone slots or progressive links slots? Personally I feel like stand alone machines offers are easier to win...

Lastly...I always thought that slots are usually looser during the wee hours of the morning...as you can see most of the JP are won around 6am in Genting...
Cheers

 

[aurvandil]

Hence, how do we know which machines are "loose" or "tight" then since RNG is totally random?

In the old days before the server based slots, there used to be all kinds of theories about how the casinos used strategic placement of machines to decide on loose or tight machines. This has never been proven and even if it is true, it would be pretty much obsolete today with the ability these days to wirelessly change the payouts. The method I favour is to diversify and play as many different machines as possible. This is easily done by using a stop watch and playing 5 minutes on a machine before moving on to another machine. In this way, you get an average return and avoid those unhappy experiences where a single machine eats most of your bankroll.

Another question.. do you prefer to play ..stand alone slots or progressive links slots? Personally I feel like stand alone machines offers are easier to win...

The online slots publish that they retain about 2% for their progressive slots. Some casino insiders have mentioned that Genting retains 3% for the progressive jackpots. i don't like playing progressive slots because I am a casual player. In Genting and even in the Singapore casinos, there are syndicates who play the progressive slots. These usually have the assistance of casino staff who tip off the syndicates when the jackpots have grown to a sufficent size to yield a positive expectations game. Because of such syndicates, you lose out when you play progressives. This is because you will only get a chance to play when the jackpots are small. When the jackpots are large, you will not get the chance to play because you find the slots being monopolised by hordes of people.

Lastly...I always thought that slots are usually looser during the wee hours of the morning...as you can see most of the JP are won around 6am in Genting...

As I mentioned before, I am a casual slots player. I go up to Genting to relax and have some fun with my kakis. Since I am on holiday, I am most certainly not going to wake up at 4 am or 5 am to play slots. I thererfore have no idea if this is true.

 

[Mindless]

Hi. In the Singapore IRs, a lot of slots are progressive linked. It is hard to find stand alone, especially the popular Aristocrats games. I personally like progressive, but not all. Eg I liked the Genting Express and Jackpot carnival in First World. I also like Gold Rush in RWS but hate the FaFaFa and Cash Express.

I don't think JP drops at any particular hours. I still believe its release is random at a time when the JP pool is ripe. I also believe it usually drops when many people are playing becos that is when the pool accumulates fast. Once I was playing alone in Cash Express at RWS during the wee morning. No one else was playing. When I didn't bet, the JP pool just doesnt move. Each time I bet, the meter barely moves a little because I was the only one betting. I played for a while and I gave up because although the JP is almost ripe, one person barely moves the meter and it may take very long before the JP drops. Imagine, if the JP drops then, I would have been the winner. But I know it is not going to happen.

 

[aurvandil]

I don't think JP drops at any particular hours. I still believe its release is random at a time when the JP pool is ripe. I also believe it usually drops when many people are playing becos that is when the pool accumulates fast. Once I was playing alone in Cash Express at RWS during the wee morning. No one else was playing. When I didn't bet, the JP pool just doesnt move. Each time I bet, the meter barely moves a little because I was the only one betting. I played for a while and I gave up because although the JP is almost ripe, one person barely moves the meter and it may take very long before the JP drops. Imagine, if the JP drops then, I would have been the winner. But I know it is not going to happen.

As mentioned before, slots are memory less. The chance of you hitting the JP is the same regardless if you are playing alone or if there are lots of people playing. The only way this can change is if they remotely change the payouts during wee hours to attract more people to play. This is a plausible hypothesis although we need more empirical evidence to see if it true.

Progressives are good to play if you are a regular who tracks the jackpots and only play when the jackpots are big and ripe. It is however a lot of work and as Bro KIA has written, quite expensive as the 3% deduction can really add up if you chase and chase but don't hit. If you are a casual player, stand alones are in my view better. Somewhat fortunately, the WMS machines I like to play to play 5x5 on are mainly stand alone in Genting.