-
IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here. The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.
Sign Petition: WP To answer questions about the managers of AHPETC!
- Thread starter zeroo
- Start date
Didn't they already answer this question previously?
According to their own spin but without real life basis, they are indispensable, heavyweights, and in the case of a particular family, exceptional.
According to their own spin but without real life basis, they are indispensable, heavyweights, and in the case of a particular family, exceptional.
Last edited:
rating for shit skin stinkiness? Obviously holy fucking smelly.
Try governing Mudlaysia or Jiu hu
Should ask Shanmugam to explain what he meant by...You took money from the man on the street and give it to your friends,..???
Every word stated by Pappies has quite a meaningful and reflection of their own things.
Thank you, you highlight all those to the whole nation... conflict of interest in big big org., husband & wife in top top, rob poors and give to friends, etc.
Sound very familiar to all of us.
Thank you, you highlight all those to the whole nation... conflict of interest in big big org., husband & wife in top top, rob poors and give to friends, etc.
Sound very familiar to all of us.
Even if true, less 'sinful' than giving oneself the money - from taxpayers.
I'm a citizen of SG
I was very happy to have Mr Lee Kuan Yew as our PM but when he retire, he passed the PMship to his son, Lee Hsien Loong
But along the way, Lee Hsien Loong wife Mdm Ho Ching became our Temasek
CEO
the above arrangement of a country Key Appointment is very similar to my place wan ton mee store owner.
Papa passed his stall to his son and the son wife collect money
But lately I discovered that this wan ton mee stall is short-changing us by giving lesser char siew and wan ton
Why did that uncle let his children do this?
What has happened to the stall I supported in 1980?
I was very happy to have Mr Lee Kuan Yew as our PM but when he retire, he passed the PMship to his son, Lee Hsien Loong
But along the way, Lee Hsien Loong wife Mdm Ho Ching became our Temasek
CEO
the above arrangement of a country Key Appointment is very similar to my place wan ton mee store owner.
Papa passed his stall to his son and the son wife collect money
But lately I discovered that this wan ton mee stall is short-changing us by giving lesser char siew and wan ton
Why did that uncle let his children do this?
What has happened to the stall I supported in 1980?
Alamak, PAP TC have been doing the same thing that your ministars are accusing the WP TC of. How? Are you going to commit hari kiri? Your passing will be a great help to sinkapore.
Calvin Cheng
7 mins ·
It is hilarious to see Internet 'experts' trying to draw parallels of the PAP doing what the Workers Party did in AHPTEC.
There are none.
The issue at AHPTEC was not merely that the officials of the TC were also the directors of the MA.
The issue is that related parties approved each other's invoices and expenses.
In proper corporations, even a CEO cannot approve his own expenses. A non-related director needs to authorise, and a 3rd non related director needs to counter sign.
Therefore all the silly diagrams that are being posted on TOC and other similar anti-establishment blogs are completely irrelevant.
If any of its writers had consulted any trained financial controller or process auditor, it would have been obvious.
My issue with the WP is thus that its corporate governance mistakes are so rudimentary it's shocking. A properly trained GM would have known. Or just hiring a process auditor would solve the problem in a couple of weeks.
In the absence of evidence of dishonesty, I this would reiterate that they are merely inept.
Its Internet supporters should also do well to accept that if any of these silly analogies they are drawing between PAP and Government organisations were valid, the Workers Party would have under parliamentary immunity, brought it up.
They didn't.
So these bloggers should stop embarrassing themselves and expose their evident lack of basic corporate education and knowledge.
7 mins ·
It is hilarious to see Internet 'experts' trying to draw parallels of the PAP doing what the Workers Party did in AHPTEC.
There are none.
The issue at AHPTEC was not merely that the officials of the TC were also the directors of the MA.
The issue is that related parties approved each other's invoices and expenses.
In proper corporations, even a CEO cannot approve his own expenses. A non-related director needs to authorise, and a 3rd non related director needs to counter sign.
Therefore all the silly diagrams that are being posted on TOC and other similar anti-establishment blogs are completely irrelevant.
If any of its writers had consulted any trained financial controller or process auditor, it would have been obvious.
My issue with the WP is thus that its corporate governance mistakes are so rudimentary it's shocking. A properly trained GM would have known. Or just hiring a process auditor would solve the problem in a couple of weeks.
In the absence of evidence of dishonesty, I this would reiterate that they are merely inept.
Its Internet supporters should also do well to accept that if any of these silly analogies they are drawing between PAP and Government organisations were valid, the Workers Party would have under parliamentary immunity, brought it up.
They didn't.
So these bloggers should stop embarrassing themselves and expose their evident lack of basic corporate education and knowledge.
Goh Meng Seng
1 hr · Edited ·
Almost 100% of my neutral friends I have met expressed disappointment with opposition due to WP AHPETC saga. 50% of my pro opposition friends also expressed the same sentiment.
I tried to tell them WP is WP, nothing to do with other opposition parties but it seems that they view it as the same. Or rather, they view it as WP so screw up, other smaller ones will be worse. .etc.
We are coming to a very dangerous situation of massive disillusion of voters...these two groups of voters are the king makers, unlike the hardcore opposition supporters.
1 hr · Edited ·
Almost 100% of my neutral friends I have met expressed disappointment with opposition due to WP AHPETC saga. 50% of my pro opposition friends also expressed the same sentiment.
I tried to tell them WP is WP, nothing to do with other opposition parties but it seems that they view it as the same. Or rather, they view it as WP so screw up, other smaller ones will be worse. .etc.
We are coming to a very dangerous situation of massive disillusion of voters...these two groups of voters are the king makers, unlike the hardcore opposition supporters.
Allow me to correct a misconception. The PAPzis (whom you call 'doggies in white') in fact:
- rob the poor
- pocket the monies themselves (by way of high salaries, etc,)
- and then allow their friends to further pillage and rape the people.
Lee took our money, gave it to the wife, children, relatives, lackeys and friends and it easily if clawed back amounts to half a trillion. So who is worse. Sham is shit everywhere in the world outside Lee's lackey umbrella.
WP must come clean and PAP must respect voters' choice
Chua Mui Hoong, Opinion Editor
Updated today at 06:00 AM
AHPETC is an acronym that many Singaporeans would be familiar with after this week.
The Aljunied-Hougang-Punggol East Town Council was the subject of two days of Parliamentary debate which held it to account for its management lapses as spelt out in the Auditor-General Office's (AGO) audit report. The audit was ordered by the National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan, after the town council's own auditors had for two years issued a disclaimer of opinion, which means it could not say that financial statements provide a true and fair account of the town council's financial position. The town council was also late in reporting its accounts and cyclical maintenance.
Three ministers weighed in on the issue.
Mr Khaw called on the Workers' Party, which runs the town council, and its MPs to manage the town council better. He said the government will tighten laws to give it more oversight and powers over town councils.
Law Minister K Shanmugam, a former top litigator, went for the jugular when he accused the WP of running the town council for the benefit of their friends in FMSS, a company that serves as managing agent and received millions in funds to run the town council. He said the town council's set-up - lots of self-dealing, with the same people doing work, certifying it, and approving payments to themselves - was unlawful.
Education Minister Heng Swee Keat said the WP had failed to win the trust of Singaporeans with their behaviour. It can't even check itself, how can it hope to serve as a check on the government, he said.
The general picture pieced together by the People's Action Party ministers is that of a group of WP MPs - town councillors in AHPETC - who were not just inexperienced, but also incompetent. Mr Shanmugam said they acted in breach of their fiduciary duties; all three ministers said they overpaid their friends in FMSS for services with monies taken from hardworking Singaporeans; and accused them of hedging and evading when held to account.
The Workers' Party of course has its own side of the story.
None of the WP MPs who spoke in Parliament denied or disputed the AGO report. They said they accepted it, had responded to it, and essentially would improve.
Mr Low Thia Khiang, the WP chairman, said the difficulty was a political one: The WP had problems getting a managing agent to run AHPETC. Two companies that took tender documents backed out of the tender. It decided to let FMSS run it. FMSS was set up by two WP stalwarts who had experience running Hougang Town Council.
"Under our current system, it seems to me that any opposition party which aspires to be elected in a GRC will have to build a town management team to train hundred staff officers first, then taking the advice of the Minister for National Development start shopping for an off-the-shelf accounting software.
"If an opposition party aspires to be the next government, perhaps it may need to build an army of civil servants first. This is a strange political situation for any functioning democracy to be in."
Ms Lee Li Lian, WP MP for Punggol East, told a similar story of how companies shunned working for the opposition town council. The WP won the Punggol East by-election in Jan 2013.
She explained that AHPETC was due to take over the town council from May 2013. It thus asked the handing over council, Pasir Ris Punggol TC, to call for a tender for cleaning services in March. Two established companies tendered - but withdrew when the date of the handover to the WP drew close.
"The tenderers were invited to attend the tender meeting in late April 2013, just before the handover in May. Unfortunately, representatives were sent from both companies to inform that they were no longer able to participate in the tender and would like to withdraw from the tender process. It was also followed up by written notices to the TC Chairman on their decision to withdraw without any valid reasons.
"AHPETC had no choice but to respect the company's decision to withdraw. As the incumbent conservancy contractor was to cease their services by end June 2013, the town counil then needed to quickly make a decision to invite companies to tender; otherwise no one will be clearing rubbish and cleaning lifts! This is just one of the many challenges opposition town council faces.
"On the other hand, I am pleased to note that EMSU (essential maintenance service unit) services provided by the previous contractor continued their services in Punggol East. Regardless of political affiliations, residents' interests should always be the priority and there should not be elements of political preference or fear. It will be sad if there are elements of fear when bidding for a project in opposition TCs."
The PAP said the WP MPs were "playing the victim" with such charges.
They had spoken so confidently of their ability to run a large town council, boasting that they had successfully run Hougang Town Council for over 20 years, said Mr Heng.
Yet the audit showed the town council was in a sorry, sad state, he said.
Here, Mr Low indicated one reason why: In the past, the Housing Board in charge of public flats, provided computer and EMSU (essential maintenance service unit) services and charged town councils a monthly fee.
This raises the question of whether, in fact, services critical to the smooth running of a town council were denied to AHPETC after it took over, with the unrealistic expectation that it should devise a computer system, set up a maintenance structure, and get things going in 90 days. If so, this may be a factor in why the WP did creditably with Hougang but fell flat on its face with a larger town council.
WP's Mr Png Eng Huat for example, highlighted this issue when he said that AHPETC had to develop its own database and computer system to track payments and service and conservancy charges.
"I wish to touch on safeguarding public funds. It is a waste of public funds for an incoming administration to develop a new computer system that does essentially the same functions as the previous system, which was also develop with public funds.
"I understand in the old days, HDB used to provide town councils with a centralized computer system. It makes perfect sense since town councils are set up to manage only HDB estates and the common areas. Who else would have the latest data on the number of flats in an estate, the types of flats, the residency status of the tenants, the amount of grant each flat should receive, when to start collecting S&CC and whether the unit is rented out whole or partial? All these information affects S&CC and grants.
"And such systems are not cheap to develop. The old system at Aljunied Town Council cost over $20 million, hardware and software, split among the other PAP town councils. AHPETC has spent over half a million dollars just to replicate what the old system could do and we still have a way to go. Isn't that a waste of resources and public funds? Setting up a centralised computer system will certainly safeguard residents' interest and money, no doubt."
What are Singaporeans to make of the whole sad, sorry saga, as the PAP put it?
I think a fair-minded person following the debate cannot help but think that the WP has a lot to answer for, and that it should take the matter more seriously than its MPs appear to do in Parliament - Pritam Singh for example suggested he would answer to residents (and not to Parliament), earning a quick rebuttal from MP Sam Tan that he was an Aljunied resident and could Mr Singh please answer him.
Singaporeans may forgive an opposition party for inexperience, but not if it fails to take action on lapses; or if it comes across as shielding its own supporters. "We must not allow FMSS to profiteer from its incompetence," said Mr Khaw.
To me, the relevant questions at this point are:
- Was there any criminality in the town council's actions (or inaction)? If so, rest assuerd the government will take action.
- Was there a breach of civil law? Both Mr Khaw and Mr Shanmugam suggested that if the town council were a listed company, it would face civil action - and shareholders would sue or demand resignations. As Mr Khaw put it, aggrieved parties can seek recourse.
- What next for FMSS? Mr Khaw has urged Mr Low to investigate the matter and hold FMSS to account if there was any wrongdoing.
While the WP has to step up to show itself capable of running a town council, the PAP too should not duck the political issues raised by the WP.
It was not too long ago that the PAP explicitly denied opposition constituencies access to government funds for upgrading or shunted them to the back of the queue. Meanwhile, anecdotal accounts of the career or business setbacks of those who have truck with opposition parties routinely make the rounds in the cocktail and kopitiam circuit.
Many Singaporeans will listen the WP's litany of woes with some sympathy, even if they have no patience with their repeated prevarication on their financial statements.
The PAP can dismiss such talk by the WP as politicking or playing the victim.
Or they can take advantage of the review of the Town Council Act to put in place rules of transition, to make sure that essential services, computer systems, accounts, and all relevant matters are properly handed over when a town council moves from one political party to another, and that an incoming council is given time and every assistance for a smooth transition..
Singaporeans deserve better than a WP that ducks and evades responsibility. They also deserve better than a system that hobbles an opposition party from taking over a town administration smoothly. Voters' choice is sovereign, and a First World government must respect that choice and accord the legitimately-elected party the respect and assistance to carry out its duties it deserves. Singaporeans deserve no less.
[email protected]
Chua Mui Hoong, Opinion Editor
Updated today at 06:00 AM
AHPETC is an acronym that many Singaporeans would be familiar with after this week.
The Aljunied-Hougang-Punggol East Town Council was the subject of two days of Parliamentary debate which held it to account for its management lapses as spelt out in the Auditor-General Office's (AGO) audit report. The audit was ordered by the National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan, after the town council's own auditors had for two years issued a disclaimer of opinion, which means it could not say that financial statements provide a true and fair account of the town council's financial position. The town council was also late in reporting its accounts and cyclical maintenance.
Three ministers weighed in on the issue.
Mr Khaw called on the Workers' Party, which runs the town council, and its MPs to manage the town council better. He said the government will tighten laws to give it more oversight and powers over town councils.
Law Minister K Shanmugam, a former top litigator, went for the jugular when he accused the WP of running the town council for the benefit of their friends in FMSS, a company that serves as managing agent and received millions in funds to run the town council. He said the town council's set-up - lots of self-dealing, with the same people doing work, certifying it, and approving payments to themselves - was unlawful.
Education Minister Heng Swee Keat said the WP had failed to win the trust of Singaporeans with their behaviour. It can't even check itself, how can it hope to serve as a check on the government, he said.
The general picture pieced together by the People's Action Party ministers is that of a group of WP MPs - town councillors in AHPETC - who were not just inexperienced, but also incompetent. Mr Shanmugam said they acted in breach of their fiduciary duties; all three ministers said they overpaid their friends in FMSS for services with monies taken from hardworking Singaporeans; and accused them of hedging and evading when held to account.
The Workers' Party of course has its own side of the story.
None of the WP MPs who spoke in Parliament denied or disputed the AGO report. They said they accepted it, had responded to it, and essentially would improve.
Mr Low Thia Khiang, the WP chairman, said the difficulty was a political one: The WP had problems getting a managing agent to run AHPETC. Two companies that took tender documents backed out of the tender. It decided to let FMSS run it. FMSS was set up by two WP stalwarts who had experience running Hougang Town Council.
"Under our current system, it seems to me that any opposition party which aspires to be elected in a GRC will have to build a town management team to train hundred staff officers first, then taking the advice of the Minister for National Development start shopping for an off-the-shelf accounting software.
"If an opposition party aspires to be the next government, perhaps it may need to build an army of civil servants first. This is a strange political situation for any functioning democracy to be in."
Ms Lee Li Lian, WP MP for Punggol East, told a similar story of how companies shunned working for the opposition town council. The WP won the Punggol East by-election in Jan 2013.
She explained that AHPETC was due to take over the town council from May 2013. It thus asked the handing over council, Pasir Ris Punggol TC, to call for a tender for cleaning services in March. Two established companies tendered - but withdrew when the date of the handover to the WP drew close.
"The tenderers were invited to attend the tender meeting in late April 2013, just before the handover in May. Unfortunately, representatives were sent from both companies to inform that they were no longer able to participate in the tender and would like to withdraw from the tender process. It was also followed up by written notices to the TC Chairman on their decision to withdraw without any valid reasons.
"AHPETC had no choice but to respect the company's decision to withdraw. As the incumbent conservancy contractor was to cease their services by end June 2013, the town counil then needed to quickly make a decision to invite companies to tender; otherwise no one will be clearing rubbish and cleaning lifts! This is just one of the many challenges opposition town council faces.
"On the other hand, I am pleased to note that EMSU (essential maintenance service unit) services provided by the previous contractor continued their services in Punggol East. Regardless of political affiliations, residents' interests should always be the priority and there should not be elements of political preference or fear. It will be sad if there are elements of fear when bidding for a project in opposition TCs."
The PAP said the WP MPs were "playing the victim" with such charges.
They had spoken so confidently of their ability to run a large town council, boasting that they had successfully run Hougang Town Council for over 20 years, said Mr Heng.
Yet the audit showed the town council was in a sorry, sad state, he said.
Here, Mr Low indicated one reason why: In the past, the Housing Board in charge of public flats, provided computer and EMSU (essential maintenance service unit) services and charged town councils a monthly fee.
This raises the question of whether, in fact, services critical to the smooth running of a town council were denied to AHPETC after it took over, with the unrealistic expectation that it should devise a computer system, set up a maintenance structure, and get things going in 90 days. If so, this may be a factor in why the WP did creditably with Hougang but fell flat on its face with a larger town council.
WP's Mr Png Eng Huat for example, highlighted this issue when he said that AHPETC had to develop its own database and computer system to track payments and service and conservancy charges.
"I wish to touch on safeguarding public funds. It is a waste of public funds for an incoming administration to develop a new computer system that does essentially the same functions as the previous system, which was also develop with public funds.
"I understand in the old days, HDB used to provide town councils with a centralized computer system. It makes perfect sense since town councils are set up to manage only HDB estates and the common areas. Who else would have the latest data on the number of flats in an estate, the types of flats, the residency status of the tenants, the amount of grant each flat should receive, when to start collecting S&CC and whether the unit is rented out whole or partial? All these information affects S&CC and grants.
"And such systems are not cheap to develop. The old system at Aljunied Town Council cost over $20 million, hardware and software, split among the other PAP town councils. AHPETC has spent over half a million dollars just to replicate what the old system could do and we still have a way to go. Isn't that a waste of resources and public funds? Setting up a centralised computer system will certainly safeguard residents' interest and money, no doubt."
What are Singaporeans to make of the whole sad, sorry saga, as the PAP put it?
I think a fair-minded person following the debate cannot help but think that the WP has a lot to answer for, and that it should take the matter more seriously than its MPs appear to do in Parliament - Pritam Singh for example suggested he would answer to residents (and not to Parliament), earning a quick rebuttal from MP Sam Tan that he was an Aljunied resident and could Mr Singh please answer him.
Singaporeans may forgive an opposition party for inexperience, but not if it fails to take action on lapses; or if it comes across as shielding its own supporters. "We must not allow FMSS to profiteer from its incompetence," said Mr Khaw.
To me, the relevant questions at this point are:
- Was there any criminality in the town council's actions (or inaction)? If so, rest assuerd the government will take action.
- Was there a breach of civil law? Both Mr Khaw and Mr Shanmugam suggested that if the town council were a listed company, it would face civil action - and shareholders would sue or demand resignations. As Mr Khaw put it, aggrieved parties can seek recourse.
- What next for FMSS? Mr Khaw has urged Mr Low to investigate the matter and hold FMSS to account if there was any wrongdoing.
While the WP has to step up to show itself capable of running a town council, the PAP too should not duck the political issues raised by the WP.
It was not too long ago that the PAP explicitly denied opposition constituencies access to government funds for upgrading or shunted them to the back of the queue. Meanwhile, anecdotal accounts of the career or business setbacks of those who have truck with opposition parties routinely make the rounds in the cocktail and kopitiam circuit.
Many Singaporeans will listen the WP's litany of woes with some sympathy, even if they have no patience with their repeated prevarication on their financial statements.
The PAP can dismiss such talk by the WP as politicking or playing the victim.
Or they can take advantage of the review of the Town Council Act to put in place rules of transition, to make sure that essential services, computer systems, accounts, and all relevant matters are properly handed over when a town council moves from one political party to another, and that an incoming council is given time and every assistance for a smooth transition..
Singaporeans deserve better than a WP that ducks and evades responsibility. They also deserve better than a system that hobbles an opposition party from taking over a town administration smoothly. Voters' choice is sovereign, and a First World government must respect that choice and accord the legitimately-elected party the respect and assistance to carry out its duties it deserves. Singaporeans deserve no less.
[email protected]
Similar threads
