Shanmugam response to Dominique's death. WTF!

[hofmann]

If 100 grenades is what it takes to simulate real battle, I would be most happy to immerse myself in the thick cloud in order to be sure that when it comes to the real thing, I am both physically and mentally prepared to fight for my country.

Then rewrite the training manual to make it 6 or 69 smoke grenades for realistic training in FIBUA. If the actions of the Cpt were even remotely justifiable, TSR would have changed. But it didn't, didn't it?

 

[yahoo55]

Just discovered that there is a Dominique Lee facebook page by his family, and his family posted this a few days ago ...

Apparently the SAF was informed and knew that he has asthma when he enlisted, hence he had to wear a blue tag which he did during that training exercise, but he was not exempted from the smoke grenade exercise by his officers even though he has asthma.

During the coroner’s inquiry of their son's death, MINDEF refused to provide the parents important information on the cause of death such as the forensic pathologist reports and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports, and also refused to answer questions from the parents.


https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLee/posts/1119314584779805

March 25 2016

We refer to MINDEF’s letter to The Straits Times Forum (NSF’s death and family’s bid to sue: MINDEF replies) on 18 March 2016. MINDEF in this latest reply, continues to evade answering the real questions the family has been asking these past years.

Yes, the coroner’s inquiry (CI) in August 2013 was a seemingly transparent process, taking the form of an open hearing fully accessible to the public and media. Yes, we, the family of Dominique, and our legal counsel were also present, and given opportunities to address questions relating to Dominique’s death. And yes, we did post our questions at the CI; however, most of the questions were not answered.

According to the State Court website, the role of the CI is to determine findings relating to factual matters such as
• The identity of the deceased
• Where and when the deceased died; and
• How the deceased died, namely, the circumstances connected with the death and the cause of death.
The website also stated that “[t]he coroner will not frame a finding in such a way as to determine any question of criminal, civil or disciplinary liability on the part of any person or persons. As such, his findings will be factual and neutral”. Hence, while we do not dispute with the factual findings of the CI, we do disagree with the coroner determining that Dominique’s allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”, as this framing is subjective and unsubstantiated.

Just as MINDEF has reiterated, the coroner had indeed found that Dominique had died from “acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes”. However, MINDEF has conveniently not reminded the public that the CI had also found that SAF had used excessive smoke grenades in the exercise that resulted in Dominique’s untimely death, and that none of those involved in the exercise on 17 April 2012 had any knowledge or training on the significance of the blue tag that Dominique was required to wear (and was wearing at the time of the incident) at all times. In addition, the CI had also revealed that the combat medic did not have adequate equipment to handle the dire situation at the time of the incident.

We have never disagreed with the factual findings of the CI. In fact, it is precisely these factual findings that further convinced us that MINDEF/SAF had indeed been negligent in their duty to ensure the health and safety of every National Service man and hence, must be held accountable for Dominique’s death.

We had requested at the CI that the forensic pathologist and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports to be made public. However, this request was refused. We had also requested the presence of the forensic pathologist and any of the five senior respiratory medicine specialist from MINDEF’s Respiratory Advisory Board at the CI, to provide answers to some of our questions, but this request was also denied. Needless to say, many of the questions we asked during the CI also received no answers.

It is startling that MINDEF/SAF, and now the AGC, are espousing the defence on the very subjective and unsubstantiated claim made by the CI that the allergic reaction Dominique suffered was “unlikely to have been predicted”. The TSR must have been designed for a reason, and it must have been implemented for a reason. If the TSR can be breached with no consequence, then it makes a mockery of its existence. In the case of Dominique, it was precisely the breach of the TSR that resulted in his death.

To rule that the breach is not the direct cause of Dominique’s death is a judgment that defies logic. Yet we are unsurprised that the AGC had decided against prosecuting anyone based on only this one non-factual finding amidst other pertinent factual ones surfaced during the CI, because the AGC is the counsel for MINDEF in this case and hence, its decision must and will favour MINDEF’s defence. The family disagrees that this is what one would consider an “independent and impartial” judgment, or a fair conclusion to the entire process.

It is a known fact that all asthmatic NSFs, including Dominique, are exempted from Chemical Defence Training where they are subjected to high concentration of zinc chloride. This fact was verified by the Platoon Commander at the CI. This exemption suggests that all decision makers in MINDEF/SAF, including both officers in this incident, knew or at least suspected that the concentration rather than the mere presence of zinc chloride would pose a danger to asthmatic NSFs. How then, can they declare unashamedly that the allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”?

There is enough medical information online, available to anyone who cares to search, about the dangers of high concentrations of zinc chloride, especially to asthmatics. Did MINDEF/SAF not have access to such easily available information when they approved the use of smoke grenades that contain zinc chloride in training? Did they not consult experts on the effects of these smoke grenades on individuals when drafting the TSR, which every training officer must to comply with? To claim that such allergic reaction as the one Dominique suffered was unforeseen and “unlikely to have been predicted” strongly suggests that MINDEF/SAF had not done their homework before exposing all NSF to the dangers of the smoke grenades all these years.

If MINDEF/SAF and the AGC are confident of their findings and processes, then the MINDEF/SAF should not invoke S14 of the Government Proceeding Act (S14 GPA), but should welcome the Court to independently and impartially study all the evidence available, including those offered by the forensic pathologist and MINDEF’s Respiratory Advisory Board, to arrive at a fair conclusion. It is only when MINDEF/SAF allows itself to be questioned in the open Court, and readily makes available all the evidence of the case, that the public can continue to have the highest confidence in the SAF.

 

[PTADER]

All of u missed the point! Sigh!
Mindef already admitted they r wrong, so no argument there. Public is outragedi by the light punishment and also the minuscule compensation. Also cannot use civil law to get redress. Let's keep to these points and Mindef got no leg to stand on. Light punishment and promotion?? Over a death! The laughable compensation .. Life is really cheap in the most expensive city in the world!

Actually, not quite true. All that Ng Eng Hen/MINDEF has admitted is that the TSR was breached ( a "small" wrong). They have completely delinked this TSR breach with their responsibility in causing the soldier's death which is a "huge" wrong. They have completely disclaim responsibility for the death. In fact, they have tried to put the blame on the soldier.

The light punishment was an outcome of this delinking as those two clowns, for very suspicious reasons, were charged under a relatively less serious section (either Sect 17 or 21, Disobedience of orders /general orders) instead of a more relevant and serious one, Sect 41, Endangering life or property.

The two were also charged under a less serious "Summary Trial" in the Superior/Bde Commander's personal office. They were not charged in a more serious "General Court Martial" in a Subordinate Military Court.

 

[Leongsam]

Just discovered that there is a Dominique Lee facebook page by his family, and his family posted this a few days ago ...

Apparently the SAF was informed and knew that he has asthma when he enlisted, hence he had to wear a blue tag which he did during that training exercise, but he was not exempted from the smoke grenade exercise by his officers even though he has asthma.

During the coroner’s inquiry of their son's death, MINDEF refused to provide the parents important information on the cause of death such as the forensic pathologist reports and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports, and also refused to answer questions from the parents.


https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLee/posts/1119314584779805

As usual the parents are trying to confuse the issue. Asthma is a chronic long term condition.

Asthmatics can lead perfectly normal lives as long as they control their symptoms. I live with someone who has asthma so I should know and this person has no problems with smoke.

An acute allergic reaction is a different kettle of fish altogether. Non asthmatics can have acute allergic reactions eg those who are allergic to peanuts, bee stings, nettles etc.

The parents are trying to link the two in order to justify a ridiculous law suit for their personal gain.

 

[enterprise2]

Actually, not quite true. All that Ng Eng Hen/MINDEF has admitted is that the TSR was breached ( a "small" wrong). They have completely delinked this TSR breach with their responsibility in causing the soldier's death which is a "huge" wrong. They have completely disclaim responsibility for the death. In fact, they have tried to put the blame on the soldier.

The light punishment was an outcome of this delinking as those two clowns, for very suspicious reasons, were charged under a relatively less serious section (either Sect 17 or 21, Disobedience of orders /general orders) instead of a more relevant and serious one, Sect 41, Endangering life or property.

The two were also charged under a less serious "Summary Trial" in the Superior/Bde Commander's personal office. They were not charged in a more serious "General Court Martial" in a Subordinate Military Court.

Those r very good points and I stand corrected. I wonder what is MINDEF motivation on this. R they worried if they go for the more serious charges, then it will impose a heavier burden of care on SAF officers on their men? That it will tilt the balance of fairness that it will be unfair to the officers? That it will open the floodgates to past cases. As to the future, they've alr fixed the easy part - tigten the rules to Ensure it won't happen again

 

[virus]

Again you try to confuse also. Visual handicap is a long term. If not permanent problems and patients are trained to use the walking stick. Drivers at all occasions are trained to slow down and give way to all. Just because you are blind and driving a car does not mean you have every right to floor the pedal knocks off all pedestrians when the traffic lights are against you. Rules in such cases are meant to be followed strictly and offenders must be punished summarily others more examples will follow.

 

[Papsmearer]

Those r very good points and I stand corrected. I wonder what is MINDEF motivation on this. R they worried if they go for the more serious charges, then it will impose a heavier burden of care on SAF officers on their men? That it will tilt the balance of fairness that it will be unfair to the officers? That it will open the floodgates to past cases. As to the future, they've alr fixed the easy part - tigten the rules to Ensure it won't happen again

Nothing so chim as that lah. Likely one of the 2 Capt is a SAF Scholar. So, they have to protect him, and in the course of doing so, they also had to do the same for the other Capt. or it looks very suspicious.

 

[Leongsam]

Nothing so chim as that lah. Likely one of the 2 Capt is a SAF Scholar. So, they have to protect him, and in the course of doing so, they also had to do the same for the other Capt. or it looks very suspicious.

It is good to know that career soldiers are being protected against malicious civil law suits.

 

[enterprise2]

Nothing so chim as that lah. Likely one of the 2 Capt is a SAF Scholar. So, they have to protect him, and in the course of doing so, they also had to do the same for the other Capt. or it looks very suspicious.

Don't think that's the case. It will be illogical and our garment is anything but illogical! They logical to the hilt! They r protecting the 'system' not any individual ( scholar or whatever). If they acquiesce to Dom''s family, it'll undermine the system somewhat and that's why they need to protect it.

 

[Leongsam]

Don't think that's the case. It will be illogical and our garment is anything but illogical! They logical to the hilt! They r protecting the 'system' not any individual ( scholar or whatever). If they acquiesce to Dom''s family, it'll undermine the system somewhat and that's why they need to protect it.

The system is there for a purpose and that is to protect hard working Singaporeans from malicious and baseless law suits.

 

[PTADER]

As usual the parents are trying to confuse the issue. Asthma is a chronic long term condition.

Asthmatics can lead perfectly normal lives as long as they control their symptoms. I live with someone who has asthma so I should know and this person has no problems with smoke.

An acute allergic reaction is a different kettle of fish altogether. Non asthmatics can have acute allergic reactions eg those who are allergic to peanuts, bee stings, nettles etc.

The parents are trying to link the two in order to justify a ridiculous law suit for their personal gain.

May not necessarily be asthma although I am sure it "helped" (see below).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_airway_disease
http://www.atsjournals.org/?journalCode=ajrccm&journalCode=chest&linkType=ABST&resid=88/3/376

"Reactive airways dysfunction syndrome

Reactive airways dysfunction syndrome (RADS) is a term proposed by Stuart M. Brooks and colleagues in 1985 [SUP][4][/SUP] to describe an asthma-like syndrome developing after a single exposure to high levels of an irritating vapor, fume, or smoke.[SUP][5][/SUP] It involves coughing, wheezing, and shortness of breath.[SUP][6]
[/SUP]
It can also manifest in adults with exposure to high levels of chlorine, ammonia, acetic acid or sulphur dioxide, creating symptoms like asthma.[SUP][7][/SUP] These symptoms can vary from mild to fatal, and can even create long-term airway damage depending on the amount of exposure and the concentration of chlorine. Some experts classify RADS as occupational asthma. Those with exposure to highly irritating substances should receive treatment to mitigate harmful effects.[SUP][8]"[/SUP]

 

[PTADER]

Those r very good points and I stand corrected. I wonder what is MINDEF motivation on this. R they worried if they go for the more serious charges, then it will impose a heavier burden of care on SAF officers on their men? That it will tilt the balance of fairness that it will be unfair to the officers? That it will open the floodgates to past cases. As to the future, they've alr fixed the easy part - tigten the rules to Ensure it won't happen again

There's definitely more to this than meets the eye. As I mentioned in another post, the line that should never, ever be crossed for the SAF is one that causes the death of a soldier, particularly a conscripted soldier.

That MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan Wing Kai have gone to great lengths including bringing the entire SAF Officer Corp into disgrace and disrepute through their deceitful, dishonest and dishonorable conduct, strongly indicate that they are now desperately trying to cover up something. That "something" could have been possibly be related to corruption, protection of white horses, scholars or personal relatives, etc.

No one will know exactly until this disgraceful farce is blasted out into the open.

 

[Leongsam]

There's definitely more to this than meets the eye. As I mentioned in another post, the line that should never, ever be crossed for the SAF is one that causes the death of a soldier, particularly a conscripted soldier.

That MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan Wing Kai have gone to great lengths including bringing the entire SAF Officer Corp into disgrace and disrepute through their deceitful, dishonest and dishonorable conduct, strongly indicate that they are now desperately trying to cover up something. That "something" could have been possibly be related to corruption, protection of white horses, scholars or personal relatives, etc.

No one will know exactly until this disgraceful farce is blasted out into the open.

The SAF did not cause the death of a soldier. It was his allergy to Zinc Chloride that caused his death. It is not the SAF's fault he had allergies. It was probably an inherited condition.

 

[PTADER]

Nothing so chim as that lah. Likely one of the 2 Capt is a SAF Scholar. So, they have to protect him, and in the course of doing so, they also had to do the same for the other Capt. or it looks very suspicious.

Could also be a cover up for or to protect the OC (in his capacity as Supervising Officer of that FIBUA training) or the CO as well due to the "follow on" effect.

The CO, LTC Wilson Low, the then Commanding Officer of 3 SIR when the soldier died, is, based on his "credentials", likely to be a scholar. He would have met Teo Chee Hean's "Command Responsibility" threshold in which he should have also been held responsible for the soldier's death.

 

[yahoo55]

As usual the parents are trying to confuse the issue. Asthma is a chronic long term condition.

Asthmatics can lead perfectly normal lives as long as they control their symptoms. I live with someone who has asthma so I should know and this person has no problems with smoke.

An acute allergic reaction is a different kettle of fish altogether. Non asthmatics can have acute allergic reactions eg those who are allergic to peanuts, bee stings, nettles etc.

The parents are trying to link the two in order to justify a ridiculous law suit for their personal gain.

The parents were replying to MINDEF's "arguments" on 18 March 2016.

According to the parents, asthmatics are allergic to high concentrations of zinc chloride as indicated by medical information, that's why all asthmatic NSFs, including their son, are exempted from Chemical Defence Training.

To rule that the breach is not the direct cause of Dominique’s death is a judgment that defies logic. Yet we are unsurprised that the AGC had decided against prosecuting anyone based on only this one non-factual finding amidst other pertinent factual ones surfaced during the CI, because the AGC is the counsel for MINDEF in this case and hence, its decision must and will favour MINDEF’s defence. The family disagrees that this is what one would consider an “independent and impartial” judgment, or a fair conclusion to the entire process.

It is a known fact that all asthmatic NSFs, including Dominique, are exempted from Chemical Defence Training where they are subjected to high concentration of zinc chloride. This fact was verified by the Platoon Commander at the CI. This exemption suggests that all decision makers in MINDEF/SAF, including both officers in this incident, knew or at least suspected that the concentration rather than the mere presence of zinc chloride would pose a danger to asthmatic NSFs. How then, can they declare unashamedly that the allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”?

There is enough medical information online, available to anyone who cares to search, about the dangers of high concentrations of zinc chloride, especially to asthmatics. Did MINDEF/SAF not have access to such easily available information when they approved the use of smoke grenades that contain zinc chloride in training? Did they not consult experts on the effects of these smoke grenades on individuals when drafting the TSR, which every training officer must to comply with? To claim that such allergic reaction as the one Dominique suffered was unforeseen and “unlikely to have been predicted” strongly suggests that MINDEF/SAF had not done their homework before exposing all NSF to the dangers of the smoke grenades all these years.

 

[enterprise2]

There's definitely more to this than meets the eye. As I mentioned in another post, the line that should never, ever be crossed for the SAF is one that causes the death of a soldier, particularly a conscripted soldier.

That MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan Wing Kai have gone to great lengths including bringing the entire SAF Officer Corp into disgrace and disrepute through their deceitful, dishonest and dishonorable conduct, strongly indicate that they are now desperately trying to cover up something. That "something" could have been possibly be related to corruption, protection of white horses, scholars or personal relatives, etc.

No one will know exactly until this disgraceful farce is blasted out into the open.

The prob is SAF is closed Organisation. All militaries are as they can justify secrecy is vital to national security. So they will mete out their own punishment away from public eye. With this shroud, people can say there is cover up going on in there. Maybe there is or maybe there isn't. Guess we'll never know!

 

[mojito]

There's definitely more to this than meets the eye. As I mentioned in another post, the line that should never, ever be crossed for the SAF is one that causes the death of a soldier, particularly a conscripted soldier.

That MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan Wing Kai have gone to great lengths including bringing the entire SAF Officer Corp into disgrace and disrepute through their deceitful, dishonest and dishonorable conduct, strongly indicate that they are now desperately trying to cover up something. That "something" could have been possibly be related to corruption, protection of white horses, scholars or personal relatives, etc.

No one will know exactly until this disgraceful farce is blasted out into the open.

Blast in the open? Sound like what terrorists would do. Imagine in parleement. That would be terrible. Civilized folks should sit down and discuss compense.

 

[Leongsam]

The parents were replying to MINDEF's "arguments" on 18 March 2016.

According to the parents, asthmatics are allergic to high concentrations of zinc chloride as indicated by medical information, that's why all asthmatic NSFs, including their son, are exempted from Chemical Defence Training.

These smoke grenades have been in use for the last 40 years. They are not made of some new fangled formula with unknown side effects.

I trained many batches of cadets and went through many exercises and training classes that involved smoke grenades. There was no limit to the amount that could be used. We drew the ammo based upon the logistics schedule for the class or exercise concerned and used up all the ammo before the end of the session.

Nobody died. Nobody had any allergic reaction of any sort. We aren't talking small numbers. We literally had hundreds of thousands of NS men go through conditions similar to what this defective soldier experienced.

How in hell is any trainer supposed to know that this lone joker is going to kick the bucket just from smelling smoke???

 

[CABcommander]

If 100 grenades is what it takes to simulate real battle, I would be most happy to immerse myself in the thick cloud in order to be sure that when it comes to the real thing, I am both physically and mentally prepared to fight for my country.

hey quitter,

don't make yourself sound so patriotic. you already quit this country and is happily fucking sheep in new Zealand :oIo:

 

[mojito]

These smoke grenades have been in use for the last 40 years. They are not made of some new fangled formula with unknown side effects.

I trained many batches of cadets and went through many exercises and training classes that involved smoke grenades. There was no limit to the amount that could be used. We drew the ammo based upon the logistics schedule for the class or exercise concerned and used up all the ammo before the end of the session.

Nobody died. Nobody had any allergic reaction of any sort. We aren't talking small numbers. We literally had hundreds of thousands of NS men go through conditions similar to what this defective soldier experienced.

How in hell is any trainer supposed to know that this lone joker is going to kick the bucket just from smelling smoke???

Very worrying that ministers have to come out and make statements like that. All this could have been avoided with little white lies here and there by everyone involved. Who dropped the ball? This absence of loyalty is systemic. We should question all personnel involved very thouroughly.