Truman's time was without widespread use of micro recorders or recorders of any kind. For the past decade, almost every mobile phone has voice recording function, not to mention many of MP3 players, laptop etc. It will not be hard to secretly record a racial rant from LTK. Yet there is none.
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SDP will withdraw.
- Thread starter scroobal
- Start date
We should make here the distinction between Chiam's performance as a parliamentarian and his performance as a party leader. When Chiam won a seat in 1984, his performance in parliament was good enough that people eventually gave him 2 more seats. But as the manager of his party, he alienated his party members. Much of this was not his fault: it was not his fault that Cheo Chai Chen and Ling How Doong were not judged good enough (but for what reason?) Not his fault that Chee Soon Juan did that stupid hunger strike. But it takes more than one Chee Soon Juan to get Chiam to leave the party. So the question that your account does not answer is: why was Chiam See Tong ousted and not Chee Soon Juan? The answer to that question is that it is Chiam who has difficulties working with other people, not Chee Soon Juan.
Chiam's weakness is that he cannot work with other people. Chee Soon Juan's weakness is that he doesn't know the mindset of the common people. They are different people with different weaknesses. What happened in 1996/7 is the fault of both Chiam See Tong and Chee Soon Juan.
What would have happened if there was no Chee Soon Juan? As we can see with SDA and SPP, the same would have happened.
As it is, there are many parties on the landscape. How many major parties is ideal for Singapore? Answer is definitely not one. Your answer is 2. Myself, I would say in a mature landscape, it is 3 or 4. If Singapore had proportional representation, the answer would be as many as you want. Switzerland has 7, I think. Since Singapore is first past the post, the answer would be less. 2 is too few, because if both parties are fucked up like in the US, you have a problem because getting rid of 2 fucked up parties is more difficult than getting rid of 1 fucked up party.
This stage, where the opposition has made gains and is elected to parliament for the first time is the most trying test of any party. Worker's party is in the same position as SDP was in 1991. There will be many tests - how to deal with the PAP sabo machinery, how to deal with stonewalling civil servants, how to make do with fewer resources, how to run the town councils. All this is on top of having to do stuff that normal parties have to do - ie membership, party discipline, articulating a political vision, walking the ground. Winning the election in 2011 is almost the easy part.
As for the landscape, I said it before. Democracy in Singapore is not mature. There are people who think that the PAP has to be removed from power asap, or at least we have to squeeze their balls so that they understand the fear. There are people who think that we should all have different parties doing different things so that the one with the best ideas suited for the current times will win. Sometimes a conservative party is better for the country, other times a liberal party is better. The strength of democracy is that you have to switch. So in that sense more opposition parties is better.
But since Singapore is first past the post and not proportional representation, it is largely a winner takes all landscape. So in a way a weak and divided opposition is not that good. Right now, I believe that there is a balance between all anti-PAP forces united into one, and parties experimenting with ideas. That's why I say 3-4 major parties. Which is 1 or 2 less than what we have - meaning they have to fold and parties that remain grab what's left. I believe there is room for 2 or even 3 opposition parties. The only question is: which parties are those?
Chee Soon Juan's focus is on policy issues, human rights, more social nets. Many of his ideas were ahead of his time. People are starting to appreciate the value of freedom of speech - or rather the older generation who didn't believe in that are dying off. SDP is becoming more relevant. It is very different from WP and will not compete for the same voters as WP. I believe it has a place and a purpose. There is enough space in Singapore for both SDP and WP.
Politics is not necessarily a fight to the death. It's like a coffeeshop: the teochew mui stall can live side by side with the bak chor mee stall, and the peranakan food stall, to borrow Mr Brown terminology. We will not eat bak chor mee every day, and we will also not ask the bak chor mee man to close down. In a sense they are competing, in another sense they are all part of a bigger system. The idea is not to only focus on which part of the system is best, but to think further, how the system works as a whole.
A multi-corner fight in a BE is not such a bad thing. Singapore is not so overflowing with political talent that every opposition party can field candidates and walk the ground in the whole of Singapore. In the GE, maybe you have a few multi-corner fights, won't be more than 10 seats. If there are cases where there are both walkovers and multi-corner fights then of course the opposition needs to get slapped.
Anyway like I said before, one or two political parties will implode. I'm thinking probably RP and SPP, but could be other parties. Then WP / SDP / NSP will get room to grow. Nothing wrong with that. In fact RP has already half imploded before GE 2011 when Nicole Seah and company crossed over to NSP.
JG was given photocopied forms to practice.
Actually if I'm Sylvia or LTK, I am happier with sdp joining in. It takes the pressure off from winning, as people will know that multi corner fights will surely mean pap win.
WP has nothing to lose, as the seat was PAP to lose. Furthermore it is only two to three years to next GE, and that problem with abandoned renovation of the mall could potentially be left unresolved intentionally if WP is to win this by election.
So better to just put up a good fight, and let pap win in multi corner fight. Let pap resolve all the tough issues in punggol east first, before WP try it at next GE. Sdp joining n the fight in WP backyard this BE will also mean that WP can muscle in onto SDP turf the next GE without looking like bad guy.
WP has nothing to lose, as the seat was PAP to lose. Furthermore it is only two to three years to next GE, and that problem with abandoned renovation of the mall could potentially be left unresolved intentionally if WP is to win this by election.
So better to just put up a good fight, and let pap win in multi corner fight. Let pap resolve all the tough issues in punggol east first, before WP try it at next GE. Sdp joining n the fight in WP backyard this BE will also mean that WP can muscle in onto SDP turf the next GE without looking like bad guy.
It is impossible to tell. He can always only restrict his views to a bunch of close friends. For Truman we only know after his letters to his wife were made public. His racism towards Asians has tremendous consequences since he was the one who decided to drop atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I give you an example. Probably you think your boss is a fuckface, but you will never tell him. Or you will only tell your friends and family. The consequence is that he will never know. Politicians, especially successful ones know what to hide from the public. And even if the current WP is called racist, it will not be the first time. Then again why are there 2 minorities in Aljunied when only one was necessary?
Note that I am not saying that LTK is racist. I am only saying I don't know.
Agree. Anyway during the GE there will be more than enough seats to go around. Tanjong Pagar will be up for grabs. SDP and WP can grab land from SDA or RP or even SPP. Why grab land from each other? When you have two parties lowering the total votes for the PAP, that achieves the effect.
Why don't you force yourself to learn to speak and read Chinese as a token of your support for racial harmony?
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then there is no telling if LTK is a rapist, gay, murderer, alien etc.
People just can't go around with baseless speculation. Especially in this age of smart phones, no public figure can hide their real self for long. If there is not a single proof in two decades, then there is nothing.
Hey, you are back. Still recall how excited you got over Shanmugam. How is the forum that you are moderating?
Agree but sadly he always had poor political acumen and strategy is something CSJ struggles. After 20 years, you would have thought he would have learnt something.
In sync with you on this. I was pleased with the new blood that they accepted in 2011. Impressive, passionate but we are now back to poor strategy and that characteristic detached sense. Fortunately there is no other party that appeals to the new and vibrant lot so they will hang around.
Though Michelle did well leaving quickly.
Though Michelle did well leaving quickly.
In 1991, the BEES strategy worked. Voters know that no opposition party can form govt. Look at WP's 8 in parliament. Look at the material we have in the CECs of all opposition parties. Take SDP for example, except for VW, the rest are poor. In fact they have better material outside the CEC.
Voters will be cautious and are not seeking to replace govt. They are trying to rein in the PAP and get them to be more accountable.
Voters will be cautious and are not seeking to replace govt. They are trying to rein in the PAP and get them to be more accountable.
SDP only think about themselves and didn't even bother to assess the ground sentiment. go look at the SDP facebook page, so many people asking them to back down.
that means that if csj is deposed or he left voluntarily, deja vu of cst leaving sdp in the 1990s, sdp without csj would be in better form than now. but would csj leave - without the image of sdp, he is nothing. maybe csj should start a ngo instead rather than be in a political party
Haha in 1991 I was still a schoolkid running around in shorts.
Like I said in 1997, Cheo Chai Chen and Ling How Doong were voted out. I did not name the reason because I know for sure that I don't know what that reason is. If you said that the by-election strategy worked then you are reading the minds of millions of people. In 1991, after checking the stats, it was the third election in a row which swung against the PAP. They already knew that the elections were swinging against them, that's why they came up with the GRC stunt in 1988. Plus it was the first election after LKY premiership. It was just a natural trend. When the PAP vote becomes low enough, a few seats will fall. No by-election effect was necessary to explain the results.
I will refrain from commenting on whether SDP is good or poor until we see the results of the by-election. But I agree that at this point in time, voters are not seeking to replace the government. Still:
1. When PAP gets 65% of the votes, they get everything other than 2 seats.
2. When PAP gets 60% of the votes, they get everything other than 6 seats.
3. When PAP gets 55% of the votes, they lose 20 seats.
4. When PAP gets 50% of the votes, they lose half the seats.
So we are actually at the 60% mark where a "freak" result is just around the corner!
I am of the opinion that compared to 1991, the ground has changed a lot.
In 1991, you need a BEES to urge people to vote for the Opposition. In 2013, there is no such a need even though there is still general concurrence that the Opposition cannot form an alternative government. In fact that fear was already gone in 2011 when except for a slip up at Tanjung Pagar all wards would have been contested.
The reasons for this, I can see. come from two areas. One is that the recent performance of the PAP left much to be desired and for those who believe that it is the Civil Service that upholds the smooth functioning of the country, a freak result of a PAP upset would not be too dire a situation.
The second reason is that the key opposition party, WP, openly admitted that they were not ready to form an alternative government, not yet anyway, indirectly practicing a BEES all by themselves. As an election strategy, they are right as the middle ground voters have no problem giving the votes to them.
What many middle ground voters fear are parties like SDP and RP. They talk about forming an alternative government with even proposed plans how they want to carry these out.
Mind you these plans are not simple plans to solve problems but plans that poke a stake into the social and economic fabric of our society. These are not plans just to help the poor people or to realign the salary structures of our people. These are revolutionary ideas (revolutionary with respect to the status quo but quite old fashion socialist in nature).
I have my serious doubts on these plans, even though I don't object to having some socialist elements in our society. For these reasons and for the risks that these entail, SDP and RP polled less well even compared with less aggressive parties like NS and SPP.
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then there is no telling if LTK is a rapist, gay, murderer, alien etc.
People just can't go around with baseless speculation.
Rapist and murderer are different. Rapists has victims, murderer has dead bodies. Racist is just a thought. You cannot cover up your actions as easily as your thoughts. Even keeping a secret like being gay (this is called staying in the closet) is difficult. I was reading the Steve Jobs biography and Tim Cook (former COO and now CEO of Apple) was described as unmarried. I laughed because it's quite well known that he's gay.
What a person is like, what a person is thinking, you never know. I give you one real life example, George Bush 2, former governor of Texas. When he was governer, he behaved like a moderate conservative. Everybody thought he was going to be a moderate conservative as a president. When he became president, he turned out to be extremist conservative.
Well, those who can form an alternative government won't form one, those who want to form one cannot form one. In essence there is a by-election effect. As I said in an earlier post, the by-election effect is a non-issue, has never been an issue. In 1991 there was no by-election effect, only a decade long swing against the PAP. The possibility of a freak result will only surface when the PAP is down to 55%, but that has never happened. Until now. Freak results do not happen in Singapore other than once in 50 year floods.
Like you I may or may not agree with the socialist ideas of SDP but I think that they should be a voice in the electoral landscape. You need people like that to present a clear vision for people to discuss or whatever. I think KJ is a libertarian because he used to be an investment banker. Libertarian is in many ways the opposite of a socialist.
You must believe, though, that when we reach 30 opposition members in the house, they can and must have a say in national issues, and they must exert some influence on the civil service. That is what parliament is supposed to do. You never want a situation where the civil service is so independent of the parties that parliament cannot control them. That is the problem facing Japan today. Parliament is the method by which the people controls the actions of the government and if the people cannot control the government, that is like driving a car with no brakes. If you see 30 opposition members in parliament and they're still confused or stupid, just vote the PAP back in.
hahaha....talking about arrogance...let me use the following hypothetical case to illustrate the meaning of de facto..
On 12/01/2013, LTK organised an event at the Speaker Corner covered by the SCM....
he declared the following:
"WP by virtue of having 8 members in parliament, must be regarded as the dominant opposition party.
I hereby declared myself as the de facto opposition leader and all the other oppostion party should respect my position and defer to me"
while csj will give him the middle finger...
some blur cock then went away saying that LTK declared himself as the opposition leader on 12/01/2013 and hence he is the opposition leader of Singapore in 2013.
On 12/01/2013, LTK organised an event at the Speaker Corner covered by the SCM....
he declared the following:
"WP by virtue of having 8 members in parliament, must be regarded as the dominant opposition party.
I hereby declared myself as the de facto opposition leader and all the other oppostion party should respect my position and defer to me"
while csj will give him the middle finger...
some blur cock then went away saying that LTK declared himself as the opposition leader on 12/01/2013 and hence he is the opposition leader of Singapore in 2013.
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Hope one day I can see CSJ in a turban.
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