• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Ravi Philemon: Hougang is not WP’s own little fiefdom

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Posted for discussion

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2012/03/hougang-is-not-wps-own-little-fiefdom/

Should Hougang be reserved exclusively for Workers' Party (WP) to contest People's Action Party (PAP)? Are any other political parties intent to contest in Hougang anathema?


This view is expressed very strongly in the blogosphere, especially in response to Tan Jee Say and National Solidarity Party's stand that they will not unequivocally state that they will not contest the pending Hougang by-election.


This opinion seem to stem from the fear that only WP will be able to deny the PAP another seat in Parliament in Hougang, and that a multi-cornered electoral battle will only favour the men in white.
The fear also rises out of the recent four-cornered Presidential Election where some quarters have concluded that Tan Kin Lian and Tan Jee Say throwing their hats into the electoral contest, robbed Tan Cheng Bock of his victory.


But what these have forgotten is, if Tan Jee Say and Tan Kin Lian had not availed themselves, then the voters would have had to choose from two former PAP MPs and Central Executive Committee members.


Even PM Lee chose to remind the voters that both were in the same team in his post-election congratulatory message (see HERE).


Although I disagree with the view that WP should not contest in Hougang because WP's selection process of election candidate is not rigorous enough (no matter how rigorous the selection process is, cases like Yaw's do happen), I agree that the political players must not be vilified or discouraged for wanting to give the people of Hougang a choice – which is what democracy is all about.


And choice is what the two other Tan's, not from PAP, gave the people of Singapore – and for that they must not only be appreciated, but be also respected.


Quite a few would have spoken up against the bogeyman of 'freak election' unleashed by the PAP during election times. We cannot then, when it suits our convenience, use the same argument of 'freak election' (i.e. PAP will win if another party besides WP stands in Hougang) to discourage other parties to contest the impending by-election.
Another excuse as to why the other opposition political players should not contest in Hougang, emanate from the rationale that because the others have not 'walked the ground' they should not contest in that ward, if they do, then they are just being opportunistic.


This is a disingenuous argument. How can the other opposition parties 'walk the ground' when it is held by a opposition party; and especially when it is so close to the last General Election, when nobody expected something like this to happen?


The PAP actually uses this same argument at every election, to say why the opposition should not be voted in, when the PAP itself is guilty of parachuting in candidates who have not 'walked the ground', using mere Party branding.


And also how can the opposition 'walk the ground' when the boundaries keep shifting, when they all hold full-time jobs, and without the help of government funded grassroots organisation (read People's Association)?


In fact, if other political players stay away from Hougang, it is probably not because they support WP's continued presence in Hougang, but because of pragmatism…they don't want to lose their deposit, their don't want to irk the voters who'll think that they are opportunistic, they don't have the resources, etc. Because it is almost certain that any other Party (besides the PAP) that challenges WP in Hougang will lose its deposit.


If Desmond Lim's lose in Pungol East single member constituency in the last General Election (see HERE), is an indicator, those that fear that WP will not retain its seat in Hougang if another Party contests there, need not fear so. That the men in white won that electoral battle is besides the point (anyone fielded in that ward besides PAP would not have won). It will be the reverse in Hougang.
The real question is, by what margin is WP going to win in Hougang?


Some political players have of course used their inability to contest the impending Hougang by-election to their advantage.


Whether we want it or not, multi-cornered electoral battles will become a reality in the foreseeable future. I can certainly foresee WP going into areas like Marine Parade and Tampines in the next GE, and it is only right for them to do so, because they need to grow as a political party. Should WP be vilified if they choose to challenge NSP in the 'turfs' NSP has claimed as their own?


Just as WP cannot be faulted for wanting to expand into other wards, other opposition players too should not be assailed for wanting to do the same; because they too need to grow as a party and the parties will not grow unless they take part in elections. Furthermore, these parties are only doing what they have promised they would do – contest elections to give the people of Singapore a choice.
Vilifying something that is not villainous is a great disservice.


When that happens, there is a chance that some voters will lose their confidence and trust in them resulting in their elect-ability being affected – which is more to the advantage of the men in white in the long run.


If it's a straight fight we want, then we're only going to get that when we have something like Malaysia's Pakatan Rakyat here. And the likelihood of that happening in Singapore, is very slim.
That being the case, with WP being the dominant opposition party right now, the other parties will always have to play second fiddle to WP, unless they challenge not just the PAP, but also WP (especially if WP refuses to cooperate with them). If that does not happen WP will take all the 'sweet ground' and the others will be left with the 'hard' ones; the result of that being, only WP members being more likely to be in Parliament.


Which means that WP will challenge the other political parties on their 'turfs' and the other political parties will challenge WP (and perhaps even another) on the 'theirs'.


Can we vilify Singapore People's Party if it wants to contest Ang Mo Kio GRC because it is next to Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC (and so makes sense), when Reform party has contested there in the last election and has claimed it as their 'turf'?


Because we don't have a coalition today, it is fair for opposition parties to pit themselves against each other for their own survivability. So, multi-cornered fights will be unavoidable as we go into the future. It will be the survival of the fittest – the rest will fall by the sidelines.


The other political parties do not have to ensure WP's survival.


Hougang is as fair as it gets in any election because the Hougang boundaries have barely changed over the years, and has been a WP stronghold for that many years. If another opposition political player contests Hougang (I highly doubt if any will), I predict that they will get no more than 8 per cent of the votes cast. Which will be a good learning curve for WP, for they'll know that those that voted against them, but not for PAP, want WP to run a tighter ship.


But Hougang is certainly not WP's own little fiefdom, that every other opposition party has to stay away from.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Funny, I've never heard of WP raising any voice against anyone wanting to contest, have you? So, how come the accusation of fiefdom?

It's not civil war. It's democracy. The voters decide.
 

Kinana

Alfrescian
Loyal
Like I said, Nicole should not have said that no other opposition parties should touch Hougang because it is LTK's turf. Very childish of her.
If she does not want to contest Hougang, just say so, period and no more.
 

mojito

Alfrescian
Loyal
Realistically speaking other than WP and PAP candidates, challengers are guaranteed to lose in HG. What is the point of this article? To persuade someone else to throw their hat into the ring? Or to advance some highfalutin principle detached from reality?
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
Funny, I've never heard of WP raising any voice against anyone wanting to contest, have you? So, how come the accusation of fiefdom?

It's not civil war. It's democracy. The voters decide.

Perhaps that is the real reason why NSP announced they may want to contest - to paint WP as a party jumping up and down and showing double standards, therefore "equal PAP" for being so "unwelcoming" of competition. If you are like the SDP or SPP which immediately said "no", it would not make sense for you to paint WP as "jumped", "unhappy" etc.

It's like a girl who wants to steal the boyfriend of another girl, tells the boy that his girlfriend has not been happy with her for contacting him and therefore please break up with her as she will show possessive tendencies after they are married - when the friend did not say or do anything. NSP has been the one releasing defensive statements, not WP which even didn't thank SDP, SPP and SDA for staying out.

Ravi is close to the NSP but forgets that if NSP thinks it's their right to go to Hougang, why even bring up the MK incident in the first place. The more you agree that any party has the right to contest Hougang, the more you should keep quiet about what WP "did" in 2011. It is whether 3CF is part of your value system or not. Otherwise, it is revenge.

And before people (like possibly Sadist) use the argument that WP going to 3CF is arrogance but NSP going for 3CF is righteous revenge, we can conclude that this would be the real double standards.
 
Last edited:

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
And before people (like possibly Sadist) use the argument that WP going to 3CF is arrogance but NSP going for 3CF is righteous revenge, we can conclude that this would be the real double standards.

Basically, he's trying to cook up something like, if someone else come in for 3-corner, it's fair right. If WP isn't afraid of 3-corner, it's arrogance. If that someone else loses deposit, it's the fault of WP arrogance. If WP actually loses because of 3-corner, it's his wisdom. 司马昭之心,路人皆知。
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
Basically, he's trying to cook up something like, if someone else come in for 3-corner, it's fair right. If WP isn't afraid of 3-corner, it's arrogance. If that someone else loses deposit, it's the fault of WP arrogance. If WP actually loses because of 3-corner, it's his wisdom. 司马昭之心,路人皆知。

If WP isn't afraid of 3-corner, it's arrogance. If WP is afraid of 3-corner, it's unelectable and weak. If we say this, we are with WP. If we don't say this, they have a free hand to pyro WP all they want.

Basically with some people, you cannot win. I may be an occasional volunteer with one of the 5 Aljunied divisions, but anyone who is not an idiot will know there is a capacity difference between NTUC chief Lim Swee Say and a Fairprice cardholding vege-buying auntie, and he will probably assert the two are the same.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ravi's article is best described as childish. Democracy is not just about choices. Its about effective representation in parliament. Singapore is not your ordinary democracy by any stretch of one's imagination. Though I do agree that no party or individual should "reserve" a constituency, Hougang is not your usual constituency and neither is the PAP your usual democratic party. Its does not believe in democracy as history proves and its monopoly on power will continue to drive its agenda.

If NSP or any other party has a much better fighting chance to ward off the PAP in Hougang, I am sure all opposition supporters and the residents would support NSP or that party. That is not the case. WP still has incumbency and retentive factor. The danger is splitting votes or even causing unecessary rift in the opposition which struggles to pull in one direction. We resented what SDP in the past dif and now with new blood and VW, they too understand the gameplan.

Ravi has a real short memory. We all know that Tony Tan would not have made it to the Istana without the help of Tan Jee Say. Are we going into round 2, because one short fat fuck does not understand the concept of strategy, the idea of not letting the PAP squeeze their way in or understand simple odds. Ralph Nader delivered the presidency to the Republicans, his archenemy because he could not do the sums.

My suggestion to Ravi is to stick to reporting events, interviewing the various players and bringing us the news. All valuable and absolutely necessary knowing that Ms Chua over in Toa Payoh would not pee without checking with the PAP. Don't dabble in analysis unless you want to join GMS in the world of Harban Singh, Seow Khee Leng, Sebastian Teo and a few others.
 
Last edited:

rainnix

Alfrescian
Loyal
Funny, I've never heard of WP raising any voice against anyone wanting to contest, have you? So, how come the accusation of fiefdom?

It's not civil war. It's democracy. The voters decide.

Why WP supporters are so jumpy about 3CF? They should have confidence in their candidate in the coming HG's BE right? I believe WP will still retain HG no matter how many corner fights there is, so I don't bother about whatever strategies, or speculations of NS or TPH or TJS or whoever.

WP supporters should have more confidence on Png, really.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Can you understand English. Its not jumpy or lack confidence in retaining. Its more the margin of victory. Ever see WP or its known supprters KPKB since this thing started. Here is an analogy - you mum goes to the wet market in her pyjamas. People comment about her poor conduct, lack of upbringing etc. they are not jumpy or losing confidence. They are commenting about the poor conduct of NSP. Get the picture.

You are truly a blurfuck. Better stick to 3 in 1. You should have confidence about WP and its supporters.


Why WP supporters are so jumpy about 3CF? They should have confidence in their candidate in the coming HG's BE right? I believe WP will still retain HG no matter how many corner fights there is, so I don't bother about whatever strategies, or speculations of NS or TPH or TJS or whoever.

WP supporters should have more confidence on Png, really.
 

Sadist

Alfrescian
Loyal
And before people (like possibly Sadist) use the argument that WP going to 3CF is arrogance but NSP going for 3CF is righteous revenge, we can conclude that this would be the real double standards.

Don't pull me into your shit. All I am saying is NSP has the right to withhold their decision on whether to contest in the HG BE, despite you trying to beat them into coming up front with a "Yes" or "No" answer. That's bullying.

If NSP do contest, which I think it is unlikely, it could back fire on them.

Happy?
 

Sadist

Alfrescian
Loyal
Whether we want it or not, multi-cornered electoral battles will become a reality in the foreseeable future. I can certainly foresee WP going into areas like Marine Parade and Tampines in the next GE, and it is only right for them to do so, because they need to grow as a political party. Should WP be vilified if they choose to challenge NSP in the 'turfs' NSP has claimed as their own?

It's really too early to engage in multi-cornered fight in the next election. What is there to gain for opposition parties?

Unless there are new parties or changes in the boundaries, opposition parties should concentrate on consolidating their gains and capture a few more GRCs. It will be sucidal to the opposition movement if WP are to contest in MP and Tampines, NSP may react to the hostility by sending a team to contest in Aljunied. It's a lose lose situation and horse trading is still the way to go.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
Or to advance some highfalutin principle detached from reality?

bro,
in my case, me had had the idea mooted twice:
1. having implored GMS to step into ring because he yaya payaya said LTK using "空城计"。
2. having thought of a 3CF as a litmus test for the incumbent, as well as another party, to see their popularity after the post GE effect. i.e. is it just a fad or something more substantial.
just like to set hypothesis for testing lah :smile::smile::smile: occupational hazards :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

cleareyes

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ravi oh Ravi, why are you so dumb Ravi?

An writeup like that would put a smile on the face of PAP supporters. I m not sure of NSP supporters but PAP supporters would see this as a chance to call for 3CF and get Hougang back.

To be realistic is the key, not childish revenge or egotistic claim of any kind. Such display of hidden ego would result in non-progress of anyone, of any party even.

So why write this? I do agree that Hougang is not WP's fiefdom. But then, If I want to throw the question back, was MK ever NSP's flefdom as well?

And in suggesting for a 3CF, which Ravi has indirectly indicated NSP as the third corner, would Ravi be able to answer it if PAP won back Hougang, or he would just say its a test that WP could not pass?

I always thought that as opposition supporters, one of our aim is to reduce PAP's hold in parliement. Or was it an intention to reduce WP's hold in parliement instead? and hence, who is the ruling party? PAP or WP??

Too many questions, too few answers. maybe some people need to reflect on what they say and do before getting it out again.
 

mojito

Alfrescian
Loyal
just like to set hypothesis for testing lah :smile::smile::smile: occupational hazards :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Yaw was considered a new candidate in HG and his vote% was more than 2 standard deviations from the national mean. Denote function as f(timing of election, incumbency, maybe even quality of candidate). Other than the timing of bi-elections (nearly a year after GE), another crucial factor may be WP's incumbency in HG as scroobal has mentioned. It could have strengthened or weakened in the aftermath of the scandal but we can't really tell.
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
Any fight with the PAP from the Opp has to be a convincing win by the Opp. Too many cooks spoil the broth. We all know that any 3CF will mean non-WP challengers losing deposits. But that's not the pt. Split votes will only reduce the convincing margin, and we need this big margin (hopefully growing with each BE/GE) to force the (still) arrogant PAP to change not only its ways but its policies.
 

Varuna

Alfrescian
Loyal
Those who wants a snatch at the piece of the meat can go ahead. Of coz it is nothing wrong. If it is for self or party, then anyone is free to go for it. But if it is towards a better chance for opposition to secure a seat in parliament, they should let the one that has the highest chance of winning represent opposition. Of course, someone may know WP stands the highest chance but bears grudge against them because he finds them to be morally unfit to be a strong leader representing opposition, and may want to throw spanner to incite others to join in the foray. It's a political risk one has to weigh to involve in this BE match. It could be crash and burn with reputation at stake, and even losing their stake for GE2016. Is it worth it?
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
Don't pull me into your shit. All I am saying is NSP has the right to withhold their decision on whether to contest in the HG BE, despite you trying to beat them into coming up front with a "Yes" or "No" answer. That's bullying.

If NSP do contest, which I think it is unlikely, it could back fire on them.

Happy?

You can tell I am tired of your constant rubbish but shall bother to give you one reply.

You really belong in the cesspool along with your fat fellow insect if you think I am so capable of bullying the whole NSP or even bother to, so there's no need to come to dirty my shit. Everyone knows the non-commitment will kill and has already killed the NSP, not anyone else or even me.

And even as you say NSP is unlikely to contest and it could backfire, are these not enough to make a decision? If I give either a milk bottle or walking stick to an old man who knows no kids and he tells me he needs to think about it because the warranty for the milk bottle is one year longer, he only tells me how stupid he is. NSP is in the doldrums. When they first stated a non-decision before LHL confirmed a BE, it made sense. Thereafter instead of keeping quiet they repeated that no decision was made. I have never seen a party so inept in my life.

No one bothers about how WP is reacting because they did not react. It's about how bad NSP is in decision making. And their supporters seeing how inept they are turns the attention to a cooked-up WP's "reaction". Ravi tried to make NSP look good by "sanitising" the 3CF concept, not realising that NSP was the one that complained about it in the first place. And that this will have implications on NSP standing in future negotiations not just with WP but others as well.
 
Top