Unlike roxygurly's mother who is probably a streetwalker, my mother used to work hard for a pittance in the rubber factory then cuttting sheets of rubber from latex rolls. She has often told me a lot of stories about riots then and how LKY was behind all these union unrest, agitating the workers, exploiting their discontent etc. That is why he is expert now in controlling the labour union today. He has seen and done it all.
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Poor Command of History - A Singaporean plight?
- Thread starter scroobal
- Start date
I'm curious to know where you got your source that Lim Chin Siong was a communist member of the CPM. TN Harper's paper on Lim Chin Siong and the Singapore Story makes it clear that there was substantial doubt that Lim Chin Siong was a communist and was certainly not part of the CPM. The best evidence one can find to substantiate the claim that Lim was communist was the quote by Philip Moore, deputy to the UK Commissioner to Singapore:
The arrests, of course referred to a planned operation which later became known as Cold Store. But I see no evidence at all that Lim was ever a member of the CPM. So how could he have inducted someone into the CPM before a portrait of Stalin?
Because like most Asians, Japanese are anti-intellectual. Anti-intellectual doesn't mean bo tak chek. It just refers to a kind of apathy towards knowledge and learning.
Wow ! He really was a puppet master back then :p
There's a distinction between memorizing and reading, I think.
The PAP has painstakingly been referring to the Communist as crypto-communist, pro-communist, communist united front, communist front and all other names except communist in order to protect one President, one prime minister and a number of past key PAP office holders as well as their children. If you read all the official literature the only person named a communist by authorities is Chin Peng. So who were this nameless communist or comunists.
Many of them have come in from the cold and have regular dinner meetings with their ex-colleagues and adversaries very much in the open.
No specifics but this should indicate something. Hopefully the papers are uncovered when old man kicks the bucket.
Philip Moore is not the only one that was not given details for a number of reasons. Except for Corridan and handful of angmos, the rest were never in the picture. There is also ex-Commissioner of Police who stated categorically that Lim Chin Siong was not a communist. And his men laughed.
Here are some of the details
I) The authorities raided a pineapple plantation factory in Kranji and found a biscuit tin in a hidden compartment hidden in the ceiling. It had mirco writing on rice paper. Handwriting analysis showed that it was Chin Siong. It was addressed to Southern Johore Command and I am not talking about the Sultan's private army.
2) A Scion of a wealthy businessman who attended Chinese High revealed the details of his cell which was headed by Chin Siong this included the oath taking. The person was then sent to London to further his studies and then to HK.
3) In 1984, Lim Chin Siong provided a detailed account of his activities as far as his memory could recall including the meeting with his controller the last of whom was Fang Chuang Pi. There were 3 clandestine meetings. To corroborate, one meeting was confirmed by the courier who led him to Plen and it was Plen's ex-girlfriend. This account was given after having spent nearly 10 years in London and a few years in Singapore. He was not in detention.
4) Eu Chooi Yip gave a detailed account on his return from Beijing. He named many.
Look at all the activities and events of that period. If the communist were not in command of the middle road unions, what were they in command and control of. Obviously the communist were not controlling a sarabat stall.
I am sure Chin Peng alone from the jungles of Betong Salient cannot be running the communist party by himself. Ask people to name who threw the bombs. assassinated people, set fire to businesses, extorted chinese businessmen in Singapore and they can't seem name any and that includes our state compliant press. Those with names are not communist but pro=communist and dedicated leftist. You ever wondered why?
Many of them have come in from the cold and have regular dinner meetings with their ex-colleagues and adversaries very much in the open.
No specifics but this should indicate something. Hopefully the papers are uncovered when old man kicks the bucket.
Philip Moore is not the only one that was not given details for a number of reasons. Except for Corridan and handful of angmos, the rest were never in the picture. There is also ex-Commissioner of Police who stated categorically that Lim Chin Siong was not a communist. And his men laughed.
Here are some of the details
I) The authorities raided a pineapple plantation factory in Kranji and found a biscuit tin in a hidden compartment hidden in the ceiling. It had mirco writing on rice paper. Handwriting analysis showed that it was Chin Siong. It was addressed to Southern Johore Command and I am not talking about the Sultan's private army.
2) A Scion of a wealthy businessman who attended Chinese High revealed the details of his cell which was headed by Chin Siong this included the oath taking. The person was then sent to London to further his studies and then to HK.
3) In 1984, Lim Chin Siong provided a detailed account of his activities as far as his memory could recall including the meeting with his controller the last of whom was Fang Chuang Pi. There were 3 clandestine meetings. To corroborate, one meeting was confirmed by the courier who led him to Plen and it was Plen's ex-girlfriend. This account was given after having spent nearly 10 years in London and a few years in Singapore. He was not in detention.
4) Eu Chooi Yip gave a detailed account on his return from Beijing. He named many.
Look at all the activities and events of that period. If the communist were not in command of the middle road unions, what were they in command and control of. Obviously the communist were not controlling a sarabat stall.
I am sure Chin Peng alone from the jungles of Betong Salient cannot be running the communist party by himself. Ask people to name who threw the bombs. assassinated people, set fire to businesses, extorted chinese businessmen in Singapore and they can't seem name any and that includes our state compliant press. Those with names are not communist but pro=communist and dedicated leftist. You ever wondered why?
He learnt it from the best. And they were really god. Lim Chin Siong was exceptional, charismatic, handsome, articulate both orally and in written form yet deadly.
It's a combination of individual and environment. School textbooks are huge influences as one reads them during formative years and had to pass exams with what's written in them. Control over contents of textbooks is more than half the socialogical and propaganda battles won.
By the way, my series of conversation with Japanese ex-girlfriend earned me quite a few infraction points from a certain forummer here accusing me of out-of-topic and spamming. The topic is whether poor command of history is a Singaporean plight? I'm just illustrating from personal experience that other nationalities have that plight too.
Am I out of topic? Let the readers judge. As for the infraction points and remarks, thanks for the concern. I won't retaliate and I'm sorry, I also can't recipocrate as I'm not the type who's concerned about an anonymous stranger's state of mind. I'll keep on addressing issues in my style, until perhaps I'm banned someday.
I won't infract or ban anyone. I just say it out loud here in the open.
Dear Scroo
I always wondered why there were gaps in the History and when they would be filled. Even in Chin Peng's narrative, Eui Chooi Yip appears and disappears almost like he was never there.
The problem here is History and its winner's and losers. LKY was a winner in a winner takes all game, loser gets exile and a possible bullet reward and the Communist , communist sympathizers etc were the losers.
Singapore in its present form was a result of LKY's win and for that I am thankful. However in today's day and age, LKY's legacy whether good or bad has been dragged into the political debate, thus history has become a political tool.
The SDP seeks to link the excesses of his later years i.e spectrum with the successes of his early wins i.e Cold Store, to discredit , destroy and to bring down what they feel are myths but in doing so , they have selectively edited history to create their own new myths.
The losers in so much as I admire them for their convictions and strong beliefs in a very deadly era, I have to ask or question their need to reinvent themselves as peaceful leftists.
I would have admired them more, if they came out and just said I was a communist sympathizer, I helped the communist , I did not like LKY but he won full stop
Locke
I always wondered why there were gaps in the History and when they would be filled. Even in Chin Peng's narrative, Eui Chooi Yip appears and disappears almost like he was never there.
The problem here is History and its winner's and losers. LKY was a winner in a winner takes all game, loser gets exile and a possible bullet reward and the Communist , communist sympathizers etc were the losers.
Singapore in its present form was a result of LKY's win and for that I am thankful. However in today's day and age, LKY's legacy whether good or bad has been dragged into the political debate, thus history has become a political tool.
The SDP seeks to link the excesses of his later years i.e spectrum with the successes of his early wins i.e Cold Store, to discredit , destroy and to bring down what they feel are myths but in doing so , they have selectively edited history to create their own new myths.
The losers in so much as I admire them for their convictions and strong beliefs in a very deadly era, I have to ask or question their need to reinvent themselves as peaceful leftists.
I would have admired them more, if they came out and just said I was a communist sympathizer, I helped the communist , I did not like LKY but he won full stop
Locke
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When the story on LKY finally closes, I suspect that history will remember him in the same way as Mao, Marcos and Suharto. All had early success and did a lot of good in the early part of their career. They however grew acustomed to power and its trappings. They clung to power and eventually did a great deal of harm.
Given the relatively short and boring nature of Singapore history it is not surprising. Most people who have a keen interest in history tend to either like very old history or the military part of it.
Singapore history can be divided into roughly pre-colonial, colonial, japanese occupation and post independence.
Pre-colonial period are mostly about the malay kingdoms of the region. Of which very few of us can relate to.
Colonial period are mostly about hardworking forebears. Nothing really interesting here.
Japanese occupation is all about suffering and more suffering. Only interesting here is maybe the war part. But given that the battle for Malaya and Singapore was pretty much of one blunder after another...
Post independence is mostly about fighting communism and how the MIW..........(MESSAGE DELETED under ISD orders)
Singapore history can be divided into roughly pre-colonial, colonial, japanese occupation and post independence.
Pre-colonial period are mostly about the malay kingdoms of the region. Of which very few of us can relate to.
Colonial period are mostly about hardworking forebears. Nothing really interesting here.
Japanese occupation is all about suffering and more suffering. Only interesting here is maybe the war part. But given that the battle for Malaya and Singapore was pretty much of one blunder after another...
Post independence is mostly about fighting communism and how the MIW..........(MESSAGE DELETED under ISD orders)
Dear Arun
Mao was a great revolutionary a great idealogue but a lousy, thinker, his early positives were also outweighed by early negatives . Suharto at the very least had early positives which outweighed the early negatives, Marcos was all negative from day one.
Locke
Mao was a great revolutionary a great idealogue but a lousy, thinker, his early positives were also outweighed by early negatives . Suharto at the very least had early positives which outweighed the early negatives, Marcos was all negative from day one.
Locke
Eu was the best person to put thinks in perspective. However they felt it was best to keep things tight. Even his oral history was limited and kept small by the authorities.
One of the primary drivers were the long standing business people who are valuable to our position as a commercial centre.
SDP and their people have no links or clues to where to find the answers. They are basically clueless.
One of the primary drivers were the long standing business people who are valuable to our position as a commercial centre.
SDP and their people have no links or clues to where to find the answers. They are basically clueless.
I like how you broke it up. Post independence is still a blur at best.
Kwa Geok Choo's nephew is a historian, an archivist and has been part of the "game" and would be the best person to put things in perspective. He is a nice guy and more an academic and has less vices than most. He has the access and the clout to give Singapore and Singaporeans the best shot of an accurate history, warts and all.
Hope he does it.
Kwa Geok Choo's nephew is a historian, an archivist and has been part of the "game" and would be the best person to put things in perspective. He is a nice guy and more an academic and has less vices than most. He has the access and the clout to give Singapore and Singaporeans the best shot of an accurate history, warts and all.
Hope he does it.
Given the relatively short and boring nature of Singapore history it is not surprising. Most people who have a keen interest in history tend to either like very old history or the military part of it.
Singapore history can be divided into roughly pre-colonial, colonial, japanese occupation and post independence.
Post independence is mostly about fighting communism which ..........(MESSAGE DELETED under ISD orders)
The part on Marcos is not really true. The Philippine economy actually did quite well for his first term and the early part of his second term. It went downhill after that.
I cited these 3 leaders as all 3 had incorporated "economic miracle" into their mythology. When people stopped experiencing this "economic miracle", support for them faded and they had to resort to all sorts of means to stay in power for the "good" of the people.
I don't think this is true. The PAP and those who write history have not been hesitant with the "communist" label. Devan Nair is known to Singapore historians as a former communist who nonetheless later sided with LKY and became president. This isn't exactly knowledge which is hidden or coloured to obscure the truth. I haven't seen any evidence that they have chosen to dress down communist tendencies by labelling it slightly differently. So what's the big difference between communist and pro-communist? One is known and used as adjective and the other is a noun. I don't see any evidence that this distinction is any more than grammatical. If you have source(s), I would appreciate it if you cited them.
I'm not too sure who specifically the archives named as communist. But here's what I could find just on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tan_Chay_Wa's_tombstone_trial
So at least one other person was named as communist.
This is very interesting, which source(s) did you read for this?
The influence of the Communist parties since the 1948 emergency was curtailed sharply. There's disagreement as to the power they wielded in Singapore since they were banned, as far as I know.
This is likely due to the fact that the term Communist United Front was nothing more than an inaccurate umbrella term used to group all the left-wing parties together. TN Harper's paper tells us that during that period there were various left-wing groups who were not united but whom nonetheless shared similar beliefs. The CUF term was invented only as an excuse to marginalise and justify undemocratic and politically motivated operations such as Cold Store.
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