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More on China’s Faux GDP Data

GoFlyKiteNow

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More on China’s Faux GDP Data

By Barry Ritholtz - November 19th, 2009, 2:00PM

Back in October, I laughed off the latest China GDP data as utterly fabricated.

As it turns out, I was not the only one. China expert Gordon G. Chang (author of The Coming Collapse of China) is more than skeptical — he has the data to question much of China’s growth miracle.

Its been wildly exaggerated:
“Beijing, in the 1990s, ordered factories to churn out goods in periods of low demand, and there are indications that officials are resorting to this tactic now. While optimistic analysts point to astounding car sales–up 70.5% in July, 94.7% in August and 83.6% in September–there are reports that central government officials have ordered state enterprises to buy fleets of vehicles and that these businesses are storing them in parking lots across the country.

These stories are as yet unconfirmed, but they are consistent with statistics showing that gasoline sales have been flat this year–up only 6.4% in August, for instance, and sliding since then from all indications. So here’s another question: At a time when economic activity is supposedly rising at a quick pace, how can large increases in passenger vehicle sales not be accompanied by corresponding surges in fuel usage? (emhasis added)

The answer is that Beijing’s statisticians have gone back to their old tactic of making up figures to support the Politburo’s predictions. The Chinese economy is probably growing due to state-led investment, but it cannot be doing so at the rates claimed.

Wen Jiabao’s stimulus plan is, above all, grossly inefficient. For all the money he is pouring into the economy, the country is getting a small return in economic output. That’s why Premier Wen, despite the high growth numbers he’s been reporting, consistently refuses to end his stimulus program. If his numbers were real, he would be worried about overheating. But he’s apparently not.”

Gee, whoever would have guessed that a Totalitarian government would lie in its official data?
 

GoFlyKiteNow

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Who Believes China’s ‘Bernie Madoff’ Data?
By Barry Ritholtz - October 22nd, 2009, 9:15AM

I don’t want to spend too much time on this, but I have to laugh every quarter when we get economic data out of China.

China’s economy expanded at the fastest pace in a year as stimulus spending and record lending growth helped the nation lead the world out of recession. Gross domestic product rose 8.9 percent in the third quarter from a year earlier, the statistics bureau said in Beijing today. The median of 34 estimates in a Bloomberg News survey was for a 9 percent gain. Separate reports showed industrial production and retail sales accelerated in September.

The dollar headed higher and Asian stocks dropped on concern that the acceleration in China’s growth will spur policy makers to consider withdrawing record fiscal and monetary stimulus in coming quarters. Qin Xiao, chairman of China Merchants Bank Co., this week said it’s “urgent” for the central bank to tighten policy to avert asset-price bubbles.

I look askance at the US economic data — skewed, massaged, modeled to within an inch of its life. But its mostly transparent, with the statisticians readily available for further discussion.

The Chinese data looks to me as if it is issued by edict — they are non-transparent, well managed, and remarkably consistent over time.

I wonder if Beijing’s accountant is an 80-year-old with offices in New City and Florida . .

--------

New Asia

China's 8.9% Growth? No Way
Gordon G. Chang, 10.23.09, 12:01 AM EDT

Beijing has spent its way to a sugar high.


On Oct. 22, Beijing announced that gross domestic product grew by 8.9% in the third quarter of 2009 compared with the corresponding period last year. The National Bureau of Statistics also reported that growth for the first three quarters was up 7.7%.

The 8.9% figure confirmed the economy's upward trend. Growth, according to official statistics, tumbled to 6.1% in the first quarter, well off the double-digit figures seen in 2007 and the first half of last year. The economy picked up during this year's second quarter, when it expanded 7.9%. Now it is clear that China will attain for 2009 at least the 8% target that Premier Wen Jiabao set in January. China's leadership is evidently satisfied. As the State Council noted on Wednesday, "The positive trend of recovery has been consolidated."

How could it not have been? Since last November, Beijing has spent perhaps as much as $900 billion--from its own funds as well as those of the larger state banks--to jump start its $4.3 trillion economy. No government can disburse that amount of cash without creating some economic activity.

Yet China's economy, for all the stimulus it has received in 11 months, is underperforming.

As an initial matter, reported third-quarter growth was slightly below the 9.1% consensus estimate of economists. More important, it is unlikely that 3Q expansion was anywhere near the claimed 8.9%. This claim is not consistent with other statistics. The economy, for example, is still dependent on exports: Before the massive government spending, about 38% of GDP was attributable to sales abroad. Yet exports tumbled 23.0% in July, 23.4% in August and 15.2% in September. Another important indication of slowing activity was the third-quarter drop in imports. They fell 14.9% in the first month of the quarter,17.0% in the second and 3.5% in the last.

And what took up the slack? The other two legs of the economy are, of course, investment and consumption. On consumption, retail sales, a crucial indicator of activity at China's shops, zoomed up during the last quarter, increasing by no less than 15.2% in any of the three months of the period.

There are fundamental problems with this key statistic, however. First, Beijing includes government purchases in the number as well as goods shipped from factories but not yet sold to consumers. Because the retail sales figures include these extraneous items, it is no wonder they do not correlate with statistics showing consumer price declines in each month of the July-September period--down 1.8%, 1.2% and 0.8%--plus increases in M2 in all three months. In September this broad measure of money in circulation jumped 29.3% after increasing 28.4% and 28.5% in the two prior months.

Because these numbers are consistent with trends evident throughout the year, we have to ask a simple question: How can a country have robust consumer sales, nagging deflation and rapid monetary expansion all at the same time? One reason is that vast quantities of consumer goods are now sitting in warehouses.
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jojostar

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what it reminds me of is Madoff ponzi scheme, before the scam broke I was presented with option to invest in its Funds (for my firm not my money) but looking at his returns they just didn't make sense too consistent no real peaks and valleys just always going up. numbers like that don't make sense - i had no idea he was faking these in a scam just felt uneasy about it and if it doesn't make sense you should avoid something like that. clearly china's economic numbers don't make sense either.

it brings up another key point they get so much foreign direct investment (say compared to a country like India or Vietnam maybe 10x as much) with this money coming from HK and Taiwan Chinese and from Western/Japanese mnc but their economic growth rate is just slighty greater than these other countries - obviously they are not using this money efficiently so have to assume they are invested in excessive infrastructure and just scamming a lot of it through corruption.
 

longbow

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Gordon Chang is famous for predicting the meltdown of Chinese Banks but instead it was the banking system of the developed world that suffered a meltdown. Thankfully, the Chinese financed the US bailout of the US banking system. If it weren't for the bailout I think US would be in a severe depression.

Actually this other guy is talking though his ass. Why?

1) Just look at the amount of Chinese made goods that we are using right now. Look at your computer, your Ipod, your clothing, your kid's toys, tires etc etc. Just take a look around your home. Even the AC is from China. And now we have many made in China cars running around SIngapore.

2) Look at the US Chinese trade deficit. If the Chinese figures were wrong then the US figures must be reliable. For 2008, US China Trade is US$410B with US running a US$266B deficit. China exports to US alone was $337B.
Do the same for EU, India

3) Then for a hint of internal consumption just look at the local car market. Look at the Louis Vuitton shops as an indication. OK definately not US level consumption but give that it has 4 times the pop I think they are consuming at UK level at least

4) Look at Chinese reserves. Where the heck did they find all this money from to buy US Treasuries? To buy up resources by the tens of billions.

5) the talk that Chinese cars sales is due to Chinese G buying up the cars is nonsense. We are talking about 9 million cars a year. Where can the Chinese G park even 200K cars without people talking about it. I am sure the Chinese G are renewing their fleet (just like what US did) to spur the market but at most we are talking about a few hundred thousand not 9 million. And then we can see consumers are buying up market premium models. You mean the Chinese G is also specially buy premium models to grow the premium market too?

More on China’s Faux GDP Data

By Barry Ritholtz - November 19th, 2009, 2:00PM

Back in October, I laughed off the latest China GDP data as utterly fabricated.

As it turns out, I was not the only one. China expert Gordon G. Chang (author of The Coming Collapse of China) is more than skeptical — he has the data to question much of China’s growth miracle.

Its been wildly exaggerated:
“Beijing, in the 1990s, ordered factories to churn out goods in periods of low demand, and there are indications that officials are resorting to this tactic now. While optimistic analysts point to astounding car sales–up 70.5% in July, 94.7% in August and 83.6% in September–there are reports that central government officials have ordered state enterprises to buy fleets of vehicles and that these businesses are storing them in parking lots across the country.

These stories are as yet unconfirmed, but they are consistent with statistics showing that gasoline sales have been flat this year–up only 6.4% in August, for instance, and sliding since then from all indications. So here’s another question: At a time when economic activity is supposedly rising at a quick pace, how can large increases in passenger vehicle sales not be accompanied by corresponding surges in fuel usage? (emhasis added)

The answer is that Beijing’s statisticians have gone back to their old tactic of making up figures to support the Politburo’s predictions. The Chinese economy is probably growing due to state-led investment, but it cannot be doing so at the rates claimed.

Wen Jiabao’s stimulus plan is, above all, grossly inefficient. For all the money he is pouring into the economy, the country is getting a small return in economic output. That’s why Premier Wen, despite the high growth numbers he’s been reporting, consistently refuses to end his stimulus program. If his numbers were real, he would be worried about overheating. But he’s apparently not.”

Gee, whoever would have guessed that a Totalitarian government would lie in its official data?
 

longbow

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Loyal
They ARE investing heck of a lot in their infrastructure. A couple years back there was a major earthquake and rebuilding for just that would easily suck up $100B.

So if you take in their total global exports + internal consumption of 1.4B people (clothing, cars, housing, food, medical, and fact that they are all doing better) + add rapid building up its infrastructure + built up of its military (pentagon has mentioned that Chinese military built up a much higher than reported) and the GDP figures seem believable

They are spending US$100B a year just on their rail system

" China plans to invest at least 700 billion yuan (102.49 billion U.S. dollars) per year in railway construction over the next three years, said Wang Zhiguo, vice minister of railways on Monday."In the first seven months of this year, China invested 247.49 billion yuan in railway construction, up 136 percent year on year," said Wang, adding that the planned railway investment for 2009 is 600 billion yuan.

He said by the end of next year, about 20,000 km of new railways will be approved for construction, which will need an investment of at least two trillion yuan.

By the end of this year, China will have a total of 86,000 km rail lines, second only to America, according to Wang.

(Xinhua News Agency August 11, 2009)
"


As for your comment that lots of FDI coming in yet growth is not as large as its neighbors - that is because Chinese GDP is large. If chinese GDP is small then this large FDI would push its economy well aboev double digit.



what it reminds me of is Madoff ponzi scheme, before the scam broke I was presented with option to invest in its Funds (for my firm not my money) but looking at his returns they just didn't make sense too consistent no real peaks and valleys just always going up. numbers like that don't make sense - i had no idea he was faking these in a scam just felt uneasy about it and if it doesn't make sense you should avoid something like that. clearly china's economic numbers don't make sense either.

it brings up another key point they get so much foreign direct investment (say compared to a country like India or Vietnam maybe 10x as much) with this money coming from HK and Taiwan Chinese and from Western/Japanese mnc but their economic growth rate is just slighty greater than these other countries - obviously they are not using this money efficiently so have to assume they are invested in excessive infrastructure and just scamming a lot of it through corruption.
 
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jojostar

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Loyal
china has been faking economic statistics for a very long time during the great leap forward at least

recently for many years they predicted 8% gdp growth rates and guess what they achieved 8% growth think this happened many years in a row.
 

KennyMGM

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Loyal
what it reminds me of is Madoff ponzi scheme, before the scam broke I was presented with option to invest in its Funds (for my firm not my money) but looking at his returns they just didn't make sense too consistent no real peaks and valleys just always going up. numbers like that don't make sense - i had no idea he was faking these in a scam just felt uneasy about it and if it doesn't make sense you should avoid something like that. clearly china's economic numbers don't make sense either.

it brings up another key point they get so much foreign direct investment (say compared to a country like India or Vietnam maybe 10x as much) with this money coming from HK and Taiwan Chinese and from Western/Japanese mnc but their economic growth rate is just slighty greater than these other countries - obviously they are not using this money efficiently so have to assume they are invested in excessive infrastructure and just scamming a lot of it through corruption.

My boss tell us the same thing. Most of the data coming out of China
are not reliable. Even the Western banks have become very cautious about advising their clients. Investors must not take such data seriously while planing their investments.
This is the usual advice we get now a days.
 

littlefish

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Loyal
what it reminds me of is Madoff ponzi scheme, before the scam broke I was presented with option to invest in its Funds (for my firm not my money) but looking at his returns they just didn't make sense too consistent no real peaks and valleys just always going up. numbers like that don't make sense - i had no idea he was faking these in a scam just felt uneasy about it and if it doesn't make sense you should avoid something like that.

You are real smart. Thanks for letting us know this perfectly useless piece of information.
 
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