Is it an offence to play poker (involving money) at home?

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Show me which part of the law provide you with such allowance.

Do you know the difference between legislation, subsidiary legislation, and administrative discretion?

It is physically impossible for 100% of the law to be captured in legislation. That is why when it comes to enforcement, there is subsidiary legislation to provide a second layer of guidelines, and administrative discretion to provide the authorities leeway to handle varying circumstances.

I am not sure if Scroobal's "2 table" rule is correct, but am pretty sure the rest is. Same goes for Ramseth's comments earlier on.

 

[scroobal]

I expect the dens to disappear but not the Ah Longs that are the integral part of such dens.

2 months ago, only 3 underground dens were in operation. According to one of the operator, no need for police to raid their dens. They die a natural death. No business.

 

[eatshitndie]

eatshitndie:

Not sure about poker games at the 2 casinos. I only play baccarrat. No pai kow and si ki puay, that I am sure.

baccarrat seems to be targetted at asians and poker at caucasians. i suppose it depends on demographics.

 

[Baimi]

this police is good, he knows the difference between advice and advise

Sam hate the police for this.

 

[scroobal]

I am just amazed that people have difficultly understanding how society operates in order to remain orderly and sane. We have been conditioned so well that people cosntantly look for rules to guide them and less of common sense.

Do you know the difference between legislation, subsidiary legislation, and administrative discretion?

It is physically impossible for 100% of the law to be captured in legislation. That is why when it comes to enforcement, there is subsidiary legislation to provide a second layer of guidelines, and administrative discretion to provide the authorities leeway to handle varying circumstances.
.

 

[eatshitndie]

Do you know the difference between legislation, subsidiary legislation, and administrative discretion?

It is physically impossible for 100% of the law to be captured in legislation. That is why when it comes to enforcement, there is subsidiary legislation to provide a second layer of guidelines, and administrative discretion to provide the authorities leeway to handle varying circumstances.

I am not sure if Scroobal's "2 table" rule is correct, but am pretty sure the rest is. Same goes for Ramseth's comments earlier on.

can be staked, raided and arrested but also can be acquited. finality rests with judge.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I'm sure the potential social problems are a lot higher with casinoes.

Especially casinoes in a small hotel like SG.

True until the two casinos started operations. Undeground gamblers frequent the casinos today when they have money. <SNIP>
2 months ago, only 3 underground dens were in operation. According to one of the operator, no need for police to raid their dens. They die a natural death. No business.

 

[jixiaolan]

Do you know the difference between legislation, subsidiary legislation, and administrative discretion?

Of cux i know, now yr turn to define discretion.

 

[Zombie]

Do you know the difference between legislation, subsidiary legislation, and administrative discretion?

It is physically impossible for 100% of the law to be captured in legislation. That is why when it comes to enforcement, there is subsidiary legislation to provide a second layer of guidelines, and administrative discretion to provide the authorities leeway to handle varying circumstances.

I am not sure if Scroobal's "2 table" rule is correct, but am pretty sure the rest is. Same goes for Ramseth's comments earlier on.

Q: Is it an offence to play poker (involving money) at home?

my understanding:
1) legislation = law
2) subsidiary legislation = law (not guidelines)
3) administrative discretion = not law, but if they want to charge you for gambling, they must still go back to 1 and 2, right?

 

[Forvendet]

Legislation = law passed by Parliament

Subdiary legislation = law passed by authorities within scope of Parliament legislation

Administrative discretion = power of decision within scope of Parliament and subsidiary legislation

 

[Grimloq69]

In sg it's not so relevant.

PAP: do what I tell you to or I'll bring out my knuckle dusters

Sinkie peasant: ok cuz I Bo lampah

Legislation = law passed by Parliament

Subdiary legislation = law passed by authorities within scope of Parliament legislation

Administrative discretion = power of decision within scope of Parliament and subsidiary legislation

 

[GoldenDragon]

baccarrat seems to be targetted at asians and poker at caucasians. i suppose it depends on demographics.

It could well be the other way around - Asians enticed to baccarrat and caucasians "gian"poker.

 

[GoldenDragon]

can be staked, raided and arrested but also can be acquited. finality rests with judge.

DATA doesn't come easily especially for gambling cases. If can't get you for an offence under the CGHA, they get you for unlawful assembly under sec143.

 

[GoldenDragon]

I'm sure the potential social problems are a lot higher with casinoes.

Especially casinoes in a small hotel like SG.

Very true, bro. The underground dens are not frequented by people of mid or high status. The dens are usually badly ventilated and the mid and upper class can get a little threatened with the surrounding and fear of police arrest too. After 3am, you get drunkards and those high on drugs patronising these dens.

Casinos are completely different. The cosy environment is an advantage compared to run-down illegal dens. To some, it is THE place to be seen.

 

[busdriver111]

The two tables policy took a long while to realise as CGH can be interpreted widely. In mid 1980s, as result of pressure from social groups, clans and grassroots organisations, it was developed and announced publicly during that time.

A police officer cannot conduct raid or arrest anyone without authorisation from an Asst Supt of Police. It is one of rare occasion where a Police Officer cannot arrest or raid without sanction of an ASP. Most laws allow Police Officer to act unilaterally.

This was to stop blur officers from doing things without the knowledge of Senior Officer of the rank of ASP who knows what Policies apply. The ASP is also required by MHA policy to open a file and conduct surveillance by different officers on different occasions. None of this is in the Act.

Interestingly a Sgt has the power to stop a plane leaving and arresting someone in it for drugs etc. When it comes to CGH, even an inspector has no powers.

Gambling and prostitution are 2 activities that have an policy umbrella with MHA determining the rules. The rules are seldom disclosed. The only instance is mid 1980s for CGH.

Do read the CGH throrughly and even an idiot will realise that law actually allows anyone to be prosecuted for gambling with his wife in the confines of his home using one table. See the part about public access and then the other where no public access also you are in trouble. Does it make sense?

Go ask any lawyer and they will never give a written opinion when it comes to CGH and laws relating to prostitution.

I had wanted to write a paragraph by paragraph reply to your post to explain the Act, but after considering what kind of rejoinder might be anticipated from you, I decided that it would be tiresome and unnecessary.

I just have this to say :

1. I have read thoroughly and used the CGH act on more than one occasion. I would like to believe that I know it pretty well.

2. Remember that all sections in the Act have to be read in conjunction with the interpretation section.

3. Nowhere in the Act is reference made to the number of tables involved. So I am quite sure there is no section which makes gambling with your wife on one table at home an offence.

4. Within the police force and the MHA, there may be some kind of policy regarding the number of tables required to make it a CGH (So you claim). But that is not law, and neither does it affect the legality of gambling in a non CGH.

I have personally seen 16 persons (4 mahjong tables) arrested at the same time and at the same place, subsequently acquitted of gambling in a CGH. All 16 admitted to gambling for money, but the defence managed to show that the premises was not a CGH. Even the AGC withdrew their notice of appeal when the GD came out.

4. I also know for a fact that there are many lawyers who will give an opinion on CGH offences. But of course it will cost dearly, since written opinions are not the norm in criminal practice. If the lawyer refuses, that's because the opinion would be very straight forward, and the lawyer does not want to waste his time and his client's money.

As for prostitution, I hope you know by now that prostitution per se is not an offence in our little sunny island republic.

5. The way you write, some uninitiated laymen may think you are in practice. So, when were you called?

 

[@rmadill0]

Wow, this thread is getting interesting. A simple question had attracted expert views from all over the place. Camping here to gain knowledge.

 

[scroobal]

You obviously have not read the Act or have difficulty connecting the dots.

Here is another set of laws under which people are often prosecuted for living off the immoral earning of prostitutes. Do read Part XI of the Women's Charter. Anyone reading it will have a clear understanding that running a brothel or controlling prostitutes is an offence under the law.

Yet there are permits and licences issued by MHA for designated places such as Geylang, Petain Road, Keong Saik St, Desker and Rowell Road. Not only that, those working in such locations need to have their names registered undergo regular medical checkup and all this must be organised by the Brothelkeeper. Many years ago, the Govt ran a full documentary on TV for an hour and how prostitution is managed, including the yellow passes. This was also brought up in parliament on many occasions.

Note there is no mention of licences, permits or allowance to operate a brothel or procure prostitutes or allow someone to live off the earnings of prostitutes anywhere in the law books of Singapore (Legislation). How do you reconcile it.

There are intervention mechanism in both CGH and the Women's Charter that the authorities use. See if you can find it.

Don't worry about me and my qualification. Just assume that I have not attended school before.

I had wanted to write a paragraph by paragraph reply to your post to explain the Act, but after considering what kind of rejoinder might be anticipated from you, I decided that it would be tiresome and unnecessary.

I just have this to say :

1. I have read thoroughly and used the CGH act on more than one occasion. I would like to believe that I know it pretty well.

The way you write, some uninitiated laymen may think you are in practice. So, when were you called?

 

[Ramseth]

I have friends running legalised brothels, girls with yellow cards and all that. I understand that the Women's Charter part on prostitution applies to Singapore citizens, PRs and foreign wives of Singapore citizens only. They're not to hire any of them as prostitutes, no yellow cards shall be issued to them. Yellow cards are issued with work permits under the occupation category of sex worker. They're permanently banned from marrying Singaporeans, getting PR or citizenship.

No, I didn't hear this from police or lawyers. I heard it from brothel owners.

 

[scroobal]

Yes, you are right on all counts except the part on Women Charter. It applies to all persons in Singapore no matter what their nationality. Also the management of brothels and the running of approved organised prostitution does not come under Women's Charter.This is run directly by MHA and highly organised with Anti- Vice carrying out the enforcement.

The quotas for sex workers are by nationality and screening must take place.

I have friends running legalised brothels, girls with yellow cards and all that. I understand that the Women's Charter part on prostitution applies to Singapore citizens, PRs and foreign wives of Singapore citizens only. They're not to hire any of them as prostitutes, no yellow cards shall be issued to them. Yellow cards are issued with work permits under the occupation category of sex worker. They're permanently banned from marrying Singaporeans, getting PR or citizenship.

No, I didn't hear this from police or lawyers. I heard it from brothel owners.

 

[kukubird58]

hahaha..my bird brain got to work in over-drive.
I am not in the legal profession.
no, i am also not attempting to give any"opinions" here but the legal profession is known for coming out with all sort of legal jargons to confuse everybody thereby protecting their rice bowls.
The operative word is opinion; it may be right; it may be wrong.
Everything is subject to interpretation and everyone has his own opinion.
In this profession...it pays to confuse matters ....figuratively speaking.