Singapore did become independent on 31 August 1963 but ceased to be independent on 16 September 1963. It then became a sovereign state on 9 August 1965.
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Indefensible.....papee white-washing Singapore history
- Thread starter kukubird58
- Start date
The same way we can accept you changing your signature from "I will retire from SBF if Singapore was an inedependent sovereign country in 1963." to "I will retire from SBF if Singapore was already formally recognised by any country as an inedependent sovereign country in 1963."
hahaha.....for empty vessel like u who still do not understand what is meant by "unilateral/illegal/de facto"...
I try to make it clearer...
nevertheless I will change back to the wordings as u pointed out..
Bro Htolas, good grasp of facts and calm presentation...
alas, some people are fixated at getting personal & parochial.
let him be - no one can change another if the other party is not prepared to be open.
this poor bird is so unloved his sole purpose is to wack scroobal in every which way, yet he has never even been addressed by or acknowledged by Scroobal . In the words of Glen Close, actress in Fatal Attraction : I am not going to be IGNORED !
so he call others bootlickers to scroo and now after some exchange with Kingrant, still buay song to start a thread capitalizing on PE BE and wanting to wbe proven right....
bird, be filled with peace and joy in our heart, cheers kuku !
alas, some people are fixated at getting personal & parochial.
let him be - no one can change another if the other party is not prepared to be open.
this poor bird is so unloved his sole purpose is to wack scroobal in every which way, yet he has never even been addressed by or acknowledged by Scroobal . In the words of Glen Close, actress in Fatal Attraction : I am not going to be IGNORED !
so he call others bootlickers to scroo and now after some exchange with Kingrant, still buay song to start a thread capitalizing on PE BE and wanting to wbe proven right....
bird, be filled with peace and joy in our heart, cheers kuku !
to be more precise, the question should be "should singapore be included in the list of historical unrecognized states between the period 1st september 1963 through the 16th of september 1963?"
from as recent as 2012 to as far back as 1736, there's a list of historical unrecognized states and/or countries which existed temporarily (less than weeks or months), existed for a period of years and subsequently re-absorbed by larger states or political entities, existed for a period of years/decades and re-emerged with a new name and state/country, still continue to exist today.
the earliest notable state in such a list is the kingdom of corsica (birthplace of my favorite hegemon, napoleon), and the year of secession from the republic of genoa was 1736. from 1755 to 1769, it became the corsican republic and was subsequently annexed by france. corsica is part of france to this day.
the latest notable state in this list is azawad, 2012 to present, a controlled territory in northern mali by ansar dine. it is the current hotbed of "terror" activities (near algeria).
closer to sg, and in the middle of the list, is the lanfang republic. the lanfang republic was established by chinese settlers and immigrants in indonesia from 1777 to 1784, and was known to be a tributary state of qing china. the dutch took control and added it as part of the indonesian colonies.
since there are so many tiongs in sg, the prc was formerly referred to as the chinese soviet republic from 1931 to 1937 even though china was under kmt rule and referred to as the republic of china.
closer to home in sg was the unrecognized state of tamil eelam (1983 to 2009). we know it's now re-absorbed by sri lanka.
there was also the philippine republic from 1899 to 1901. it was an independent state by self-declaration on june 12, 1898 up to the same year on december 10, and that was when spain ceded her philippines' colonies to the u.s. after the conclusion of the spanish-american war. it was formerly established as an independent country with a new constitution in january 23, 1899. it fought against the u.s. in a war of independence and lost in 1901. today the philippine republic is part of the philippines.
question is. how cum the 16-day pre-federation independent singapore is not on the list even though she is now the republic of singapore?
from as recent as 2012 to as far back as 1736, there's a list of historical unrecognized states and/or countries which existed temporarily (less than weeks or months), existed for a period of years and subsequently re-absorbed by larger states or political entities, existed for a period of years/decades and re-emerged with a new name and state/country, still continue to exist today.
the earliest notable state in such a list is the kingdom of corsica (birthplace of my favorite hegemon, napoleon), and the year of secession from the republic of genoa was 1736. from 1755 to 1769, it became the corsican republic and was subsequently annexed by france. corsica is part of france to this day.
the latest notable state in this list is azawad, 2012 to present, a controlled territory in northern mali by ansar dine. it is the current hotbed of "terror" activities (near algeria).
closer to sg, and in the middle of the list, is the lanfang republic. the lanfang republic was established by chinese settlers and immigrants in indonesia from 1777 to 1784, and was known to be a tributary state of qing china. the dutch took control and added it as part of the indonesian colonies.
since there are so many tiongs in sg, the prc was formerly referred to as the chinese soviet republic from 1931 to 1937 even though china was under kmt rule and referred to as the republic of china.
closer to home in sg was the unrecognized state of tamil eelam (1983 to 2009). we know it's now re-absorbed by sri lanka.
there was also the philippine republic from 1899 to 1901. it was an independent state by self-declaration on june 12, 1898 up to the same year on december 10, and that was when spain ceded her philippines' colonies to the u.s. after the conclusion of the spanish-american war. it was formerly established as an independent country with a new constitution in january 23, 1899. it fought against the u.s. in a war of independence and lost in 1901. today the philippine republic is part of the philippines.
question is. how cum the 16-day pre-federation independent singapore is not on the list even though she is now the republic of singapore?
hahaha...because everybody think that kukubird is kuku.....lol.
here come the heavyweight elephant with pea brain who cannot understand simple English and think that the whole world is wrong and his cronies are always right despite obvious cock-ups......
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i'm not saying others are wrong. i'm simply presenting facts. there's a criteria for inclusion in the list, and sg before joining the malaysian federation fit that criteria. there was a declaration of independence or claiming of statehood, or she had a population and an organized government to enter into relations with another state, or she had de facto control over a territory in which the population resided, or she had been recognized as a state by at least one other state. if she fulfilled any of the four criteria above, not all of them, she deserved to be on the highly honorable list, at least as a footnote or little red dot. the entry should include: singapore, 1963, now the republic of singapore, gained independence from britain on 31 august 1963, had new government on 1 september 1963, joined malaysia on 16 september 1963, and secede from the federation in 1965. otherwise, she should petition the new world order to be included in the lowly dubious list, which has yet to exist.
history is about reading widely from various independent sources.
last noted, according to Time Magazine 6th Sept 1963 issue, article titled Malaysia: Tunku Yes, Sukarno No, me quote "the proposed date of federation was 31 August 1963, however, the date was delayed until 16 September 1963 due to opposition from Indonesia's Sukarno and the Sarawak United Peoples' Party." so Singapore was an independent country, free from British colonial rule, for 16 days before it joined the Federation on 16th September 1963.
the US Library of Congress reports, and me quote "On August 31, Lee declared Singapore to be independent with the PAP government to act as trustees for fifteen days until the formation of Malaysia on September 16. On September 3, Lee dissolved the Legislative Assembly and called for a new election on September 21, to obtain a new mandate for the PAP government." so Singapore had about 2 weeks of independence prior to joining Malaysia on 16th September 1963 under Merger.
Singapore was indeed independent on 31st August 1963 from British rule, but was Singapore a sovereign state on 31st August 1963? this is a bit confusing for me, anyone can help out? :o:o:o
if sg was able to enact laws, have independent authority and govern her population within her territory or geographical area within those few weeks, she could be regarded as a sovereign state.
Thanks to all who offered praise. I'm no expert, just someone interested in living in the past.
First, the dates of the UDI period. UDI was made on 31 Aug 1963 but took effect at 0000h on 1 Sep 1963. Singapore became part of Malaysia at midnight on 16 Sep 1963 (which btw was LKY's 40th birthday.)
Next, ESND's definition of a sovereign state is by and large correct, though I was not aware that a list of unrecognized states existed - thanks for that and now I will try to memorize them - I'm like that. And, yes, Singapore should get a listing, even if the UDI period was short. Another unrecognized state would of course be Somaliland, part of Somalia.
Finally, I don't care what kukubird's reasons are for bringing this up; I'll still treat it as a genuine quest for knowledge. When he shows signs of twisting and turning, I'll try to correct him. If he persists, I'll ignore him.
First, the dates of the UDI period. UDI was made on 31 Aug 1963 but took effect at 0000h on 1 Sep 1963. Singapore became part of Malaysia at midnight on 16 Sep 1963 (which btw was LKY's 40th birthday.)
Next, ESND's definition of a sovereign state is by and large correct, though I was not aware that a list of unrecognized states existed - thanks for that and now I will try to memorize them - I'm like that. And, yes, Singapore should get a listing, even if the UDI period was short. Another unrecognized state would of course be Somaliland, part of Somalia.
Finally, I don't care what kukubird's reasons are for bringing this up; I'll still treat it as a genuine quest for knowledge. When he shows signs of twisting and turning, I'll try to correct him. If he persists, I'll ignore him.
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If Singapore did not have to join Malaysia, she could very well enact laws, become sovereign etc. and become truly independent on 31 August 1963. The only thing holding it back was that LKY wanted KL to deal with his pro-Communist fellow travellers, and Britain had to see this thru. I am cheered that a lot of bros - HTOLAS, elephanto, cass, Eatshitanddie, zhihau etc - saw and read what I have written and repeated my posts with true accuracy, so I rest my case.
Zhihau is absolutely spot on about reading widely to get a good grasp of history. People like this village kuku idiot think that I lifted it from wiki, when the real source is CIA. In fact, more than just wiki and CIA have reprinted the fact, and there is really not factually wrong or inaccurate to claim independence ( arguing it is de facto is just splitting hairs). In fact as I have said, this is already moot, my point was that LKY just had to do it to relieve the itch in his groin- proclaim he was free and not wait for 16 Sep.
Our ignoramus has to spend much more time at the Singapore/Malaysia collection in our NLB to bring himself out of his dark cave, and stop thinking in terms of Primary school history text book crap that you are only independent when the UN recognises you. If the British Raj that has ruled a thousand seas steps back and lets you proclaim Merdeka 3 x on the steps of no more formal a place than the City Hall, and not shoot you for treason or clap you in the slammer, I dont see why it is anybody's business that the PM needed to ask the U.N. if he can be indep or not.
Continuing to haggle over de facto or de fuckto indep is disingenious. Pls dont insult all our bros here. Time out for idiots from this forum as he promised.
Zhihau is absolutely spot on about reading widely to get a good grasp of history. People like this village kuku idiot think that I lifted it from wiki, when the real source is CIA. In fact, more than just wiki and CIA have reprinted the fact, and there is really not factually wrong or inaccurate to claim independence ( arguing it is de facto is just splitting hairs). In fact as I have said, this is already moot, my point was that LKY just had to do it to relieve the itch in his groin- proclaim he was free and not wait for 16 Sep.
Our ignoramus has to spend much more time at the Singapore/Malaysia collection in our NLB to bring himself out of his dark cave, and stop thinking in terms of Primary school history text book crap that you are only independent when the UN recognises you. If the British Raj that has ruled a thousand seas steps back and lets you proclaim Merdeka 3 x on the steps of no more formal a place than the City Hall, and not shoot you for treason or clap you in the slammer, I dont see why it is anybody's business that the PM needed to ask the U.N. if he can be indep or not.
Continuing to haggle over de facto or de fuckto indep is disingenious. Pls dont insult all our bros here. Time out for idiots from this forum as he promised.
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There are two ways of looking at it. First is that you have to be independent for a long enough time for that "independence" to count as being "real".
If you look at it that way, then Singapore wasn't "really" independent for those two weeks.
But if you look at it that way, then we were never part of Malaysia. Those two years were just an illusion that could not be sustained due to such great philosophical differences between LKY and the Tunku.
In the long run, those 2 weeks of independence was really a more accurate indication of the shape of things to come.
The other thing is that I don't know about LKY's "Merdeka" proclamation, but doesn't merdeka mean "freedom" in Malay? It doesn't mean independence. Only thing it means is "the British are leaving".
And yes, time for kukubird to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TniztJYqsJ8
"Oh, the snot has caked against my pants
It has turned into crystal
There's a bluebird sitting on a branch
I guess I'll take my pistol..."
If he had put it the way you did, I would have conceded it is a valid point. But the idiot wasnt keen on facts; he is, was, and has always been trolling, so no point to light the bulb in his head which really is covered with cowhide.
Btw, if you google translate "Merdeka" it says "independent". "Free" is also on the list of possible meanings, but let's not start me on freedom and independence now.
Btw, if you google translate "Merdeka" it says "independent". "Free" is also on the list of possible meanings, but let's not start me on freedom and independence now.
Well you could also take my point to mean that independence is independence, it doesn't matter for how long. 2 years of merger with Malaysia doesn't really mean anything. If you go to Los Angeles, do you ever think that it used to be part of Mexico? Independence was the really important thing.
And the other thing is, just as "freedom" has multiple meanings, "independence" could mean Singapore as an independent entity from the British, Singapore and Malaysia as one independent entity from the British, or Singapore as an independent entity from Malaysia. Words are just words, it depends on how you use them.
Exactly my point from my first post. Old Man also didnt think it mattered so he crowed. I was laughing when I thought that and posted it. Yet the village nincompoop became earnest to a T about the concept of indep. UN recognised indep is really comic, if it did not reflect on his tragic lack of any grey matter.
1st of september when the unilateral declaration of independence was made effective. it's a little-known piece of south east asian history. and thanks to htolas for confirming it. sabah, known as north borneo, also could be considered independent from 1st of september 1963 to the 16th of september 1963. the nod was given by the british on 31 august 1963, but effectively, independence took effect on the 1st. it is not 100% true that sabah, or north borneo as she was known during her brief 16-day independence, was immediately part of malaysia starting from 31 august 1963. the 0000hr on the 16th, if taken into account, would also mean that it was 15 days for north borneo independence, and not 16 days. if you ask north borneo secessionists, they are very technical and nit-picky about this. and yes, every state in the federation, like in the u.s., has secessionist tendencies. :p
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1) Independence whether unilateral or otherwise means sovereignty. Countries seek recognition from other countries for security reasons as well as to formalise visa and travel arrangement for their respective citizens. The most famous case of UDI is the United States of America. The question is how long can your independence last if you are not strong enough or not recognised.
2) Old man wanted Singapore to join Malaysia as an equal partner ie. 2 independents states coming to a mutual agreement. He could not do that with the British as the masters. He also felt that he could extract the London Agreement demands if he was independent. To bolster his case, he convinced Sabah and Sarawak to declare Independence together with him effective 1 Sept 63. The British immediately reacted and told the other 2 states that they will be given self governing status and they did not declare a UDI despite the contrary appearing.
3) Old Man told Tungku on 1st Sept that unless they agree in black and white on the London Agreement items by 12 Sept ( nomination day for the recently dissolved legislative assembly), he would on 16 Sept start canvassing for formal recognition from other states and the dye will be cast. Razak quickly did the paper work and met all the demands except for one stupid item of not retaining Sec 55 ( local parlance) detention for SS members. Razak instead gave him a letter of authority. All therefore was met on 7 Sept and well beyond the 12th of Sept deadline.
3) In essence, Singapore became independent on 1 Sept and remained so for 15 days.
4) For all the Shennigans Old Man did, he became paranoid as a result, fearing for his safety for the rest of his life. When Fuad Stephens, then Chief Minister of Sabah years later invested $1.5m and started the Singapore Herald, Old Man panicked and though that Fuad was after him for screwing around with Sabah and Sarawak for his own ends over the independence and merger. He shut it down and called it black ops.
2) Old man wanted Singapore to join Malaysia as an equal partner ie. 2 independents states coming to a mutual agreement. He could not do that with the British as the masters. He also felt that he could extract the London Agreement demands if he was independent. To bolster his case, he convinced Sabah and Sarawak to declare Independence together with him effective 1 Sept 63. The British immediately reacted and told the other 2 states that they will be given self governing status and they did not declare a UDI despite the contrary appearing.
3) Old Man told Tungku on 1st Sept that unless they agree in black and white on the London Agreement items by 12 Sept ( nomination day for the recently dissolved legislative assembly), he would on 16 Sept start canvassing for formal recognition from other states and the dye will be cast. Razak quickly did the paper work and met all the demands except for one stupid item of not retaining Sec 55 ( local parlance) detention for SS members. Razak instead gave him a letter of authority. All therefore was met on 7 Sept and well beyond the 12th of Sept deadline.
3) In essence, Singapore became independent on 1 Sept and remained so for 15 days.
4) For all the Shennigans Old Man did, he became paranoid as a result, fearing for his safety for the rest of his life. When Fuad Stephens, then Chief Minister of Sabah years later invested $1.5m and started the Singapore Herald, Old Man panicked and though that Fuad was after him for screwing around with Sabah and Sarawak for his own ends over the independence and merger. He shut it down and called it black ops.
everybody loves a holiday! :p:p:p
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