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HDB 101 : What the PAP don't want you to know.

Highfalutin

Alfrescian
Loyal
.

Yes, I have pointed out in other posts that the HDB has build way too few units. In the 80s, and 90s, 30,000 plus new units a year was not unusual. Now in the last few years, its barely 10,000, and in fact in 2008, I think it was only 2700. How can they build so few in the face of the FT influx, and natural demand? The reason is that MBT did not make the wrong decision. It is a deliberate plan. What happens when you reduce the supply of a product? The demand goes up. The HDB knows this. By raising the demand of the flat, the price of the flat goes up, and in particular the resale market price. This in turn enables the HDB to demand a higher price for new builds. This is all part of their plan. Otherwise, they cannot justify such large price increase. Remember the HDB is always talking about market subsidies. They claim their price is below what the market is charging and is therefore a subsidy. Well, by escalating the price of the market (by reducig the supply of flats), the market price goes way up, but the HDB can still charge much more and claim they are giving market subsidies as their price is still below the market high that they created.


Ng Teng Fong was not the King of real estate. Mah Bow Tan is, and for a paltry 1.5 million dollars a year. Yup, the ability to manipulate demand and effectively raising the price and inevitably generating high profits is the true mark of a real estate tycoon. Why isn't Mah Bow Tan in the private sector making billlions instead of staying on with the PAP and getting fucked by Lee Kuan Yew? Is it because only in Government can one constantly manipulate the conditions in one's favour? Maybe Mah Bow Tan is no genuine talented real estate tycoon after all. He need to operate under the PAP Mafia strong arm no protest tactics. Salut!
 

tonychat

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Ng Teng Fong was not the King of real estate. Mah Bow Tan is, and for a paltry 1.5 million dollars a year. Yup, the ability to manipulate demand and effectively raising the price and inevitably generating high profits is the true mark of a real estate tycoon. Why isn't Mah Bow Tan in the private sector making billlions instead of staying on with the PAP and getting fucked by Lee Kuan Yew? Is it because only in Government can one constantly manipulate the conditions in one's favour? Maybe Mah Bow Tan is no genuine talented real estate tycoon after all. He need to operate under the PAP Mafia strong arm no protest tactics. Salut!

If the govt do their work like a tycoon. Then he should be removed. BUt as usual, sinkie got no balls to do that.
 

NoNewsGood

Alfrescian
Loyal
Altho the leases on most props are 99 years, people actually buy and sell without thinking abt it too much. Here I may not agree with Papsmearer that 'owners' don't know that for a fact. 99 yrs is a long time anyway, and of course, it means at the end of 99 yrs, the land and everything on it reverts back to the title holder, which in this case, is SLA and not HDB anyway. HDB leased the land from SLA and then HDB developed the land by building flats on it and sells them out. Private developers buy land from URA who leased it from SLA too. SLA is thereal landowner on behalf of the govt. SLA leases land to JTC for commercial and industrial uses.

.

There is a difference between leasehold land and lease.

The condominium you buy from a private developer if not freehold land is leasehold land. You will get a title deed for the unit you buy and the unit will show that you are the owner. Since you are the owner, you may pledge the property with the bank (without seeking the developer's consent).

The HDB flat you 'buy' from HDB is not leasehold land. It is a lease i.e. tenancy agreement. Since you are merely a tenant, you do not get a title deed for the unit you 'buy'. Since the HDB unit does not belong to you (remember? you are just a tenant), you may not pledge the property with the bank.

You may ask "then why I could 'mortgage' my HDB flat to the bank for a loan?". This is a creature created by the HDB Act, in which by law your 'interest' in the lease (tenancy) is recognised as a 'mortgageable' interest to borrow money from the bank. Otherwise, under normal circumstances, a lease (tenancy) is not good enough (proprietary) interest to pledge with the bank in exchange for a loan. This why until the changes to the HDB Act in 2004, no one could take loan from a bank to 'buy' HDB flat.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
But I still say paying rents means more pressure on yr domestic budget. Imagine yr pay already deducted for yr CPF and then you want to use take home pay to pay rent. Beats me.

This is how the rest of the world works. They do not mix their retirement plans with current living expenses. Again, the PAP has figured this out. Don't forget in the 70s and 80s, when landlords could buy flats for $80K or less, landlords were charging a lot less rent, and it was very easy to pay for a rental flat on a domestic budget. As well CPF contribution was lower so take home pay was more. Today, its much harder to do so, but one still has to look into it seriously as a resort to buying HDB.
 

bergkamp

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thanks Papsmearer for this enlightening thread. Personally, I have taken a $300k HDB loan at 2.6% pa. Realised that after 8 years, with interest factored in, I still have $266k outstanding loan. It dawned on me that the interest I am paying over 30 years loan period is easily $200+ k ...?? Can any brother help to calculate. I shuddered to think of those champion that take $500k or more loan over 30 years. Once you are 45 and 55 years old, the CPF contribution rate would decrease and you would have to folk out more cash to compensate for the balance outstanding amount that CPF cannot pay.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Hello everyone, I don;t seem to be able to edit my first post, so I want to add points number 7 and 8 here.

7) The HDB in addition to not wanting to let you know how much it cost them to build your flat and hence avoid revealing their profit margin, also does not want you to understand that they make additional income though lending you a HDB loan. Its true that not all HDB leaseholders have a HDB loan. But for those that do, just picture this scenario.

Your "purchase" a flat from the HDB for $350K. You have savings or relatives that enable you to put $100K down and take a HDB loan for $250K. Lets say that it actually costs the HDB $100K to build this flat. Lets also say that the mortgage rate on this HDB loan of $250K is the concessionary rate of 2.6% for 30 years. Over the life of this HDB loan (assuming no lump sum or early pay outs), the HDB would receive in total $106,077 in interest in addition to receiving back their $250K principal. Total cost to you is therefore:
Initial down payment to HDB of $100,000
Principal repaid back to HDB $250,000
Interest paid to HDB $110,306
Total $460,306

Of course you can play with the numbers, like what if I took only 20 years mortgage, what if I make extra payments, etc. But in the above scenario, which I consider to be realistic, the HDB has ultimately grossed $460K from a $100K investment. Wow, Temasek and GIC should be so lucky. LOL. Yet another little thing the HDB does not want you to know.

8) The rise in HDB prices caused by the factors mentioned in the original post has a very unpleasant side effect - It has also raised the Cost of Living in S'pore to a very high level. because HDB is so pervasive in the S'pore economic context, any change in its structure impacts immensely on the cost of living. I am not saying that it was the only cost of high living cost, but its a major factor. How does it work? Well, the increase in HDB prices as mentioned above also results in an increase in private property prices. But I failed to mention that commercial property prices also increase at the same time, maybe at a higher rate. Imagine a kopitiam in a HDB estate. The owner now has to pay much more to purchase it, he in turns has to charge more rent to the operator to realise a return, the kopitiam operator now has to pass on his rental cost in the form of higher prices to the consumer, and so on. Multiply this by thousands of stores under the HDB auspices and you can see how this rental cost transfers to the public and consequently increases the cost of living. Now I have mentioned above the PAP and HDB have thought of everything and refined their model to maximize their benefit. But this is one consequence that they fail to account for.
 
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0939

Alfrescian
Loyal
CPF has failed as a retirement saving from the moment it implemented. Most of the old folks like my parent retired during the 80s. Those days the HDB were much cheaper and the balance money not enough to see through the remaining years. With medisave set to increase, what money left for us for retirement. Buying HDB flat is one option. We need to have a roof. Hopefully we can pay the loans form instalments. But CPF contribution is set at limit $4500. Do we still have enough for retirement.
If I remembered correctly, one minister who said we must have at least $750,000 to retire.
The only thing we can hope for is HDB to go up and up and hope that our children got a better education to see themselves through and ourselves as parents to help them. through. No wonder our birth rate is one of the lowest in the world. Good luck to those with big family and those who miss the boat.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Thanks Papsmearer for this enlightening thread. Personally, I have taken a $300k HDB loan at 2.6% pa. Realised that after 8 years, with interest factored in, I still have $266k outstanding loan. It dawned on me that the interest I am paying over 30 years loan period is easily $200+ k ...?? Can any brother help to calculate. I shuddered to think of those champion that take $500k or more loan over 30 years. Once you are 45 and 55 years old, the CPF contribution rate would decrease and you would have to folk out more cash to compensate for the balance outstanding amount that CPF cannot pay.

Hi BergKamp, i can calculate this for you. If you don't sell your flat and don't prepay anything and maintain this loan for the 30 year period, you would have paid in total $132,367 in interest alone. Plus your original principal, your total payment would have been $432,367. Is your monthly payment about $1200 per month?
 

bergkamp

Alfrescian
Loyal
Hi Papsmearer, you are spot-on about my monthly payment and thank you for the quick reply! However, I have also used $140k from CPF OA as downpayment, when I "sell" my flat, have to repay the $140k plus interest (which probably another $50k +) to my CPF account. Find it ridiculous that I have pay interest for using own CPF OA money...keke.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
CPF has failed as a retirement saving from the moment it implemented. Most of the old folks like my parent retired during the 80s. Those days the HDB were much cheaper and the balance money not enough to see through the remaining years. With medisave set to increase, what money left for us for retirement. Buying HDB flat is one option. We need to have a roof. Hopefully we can pay the loans form instalments. But CPF contribution is set at limit $4500. Do we still have enough for retirement.
If I remembered correctly, one minister who said we must have at least $750,000 to retire.
The only thing we can hope for is HDB to go up and up and hope that our children got a better education to see themselves through and ourselves as parents to help them. through. No wonder our birth rate is one of the lowest in the world. Good luck to those with big family and those who miss the boat.

whether we have enought to retire on or not, its a good question. In the 70s, 80s, and even early to mid 90s, my answer would have been a yes. But with the sharp escalation in HDB prices, people paying $500K and up for their flat, they have to sell their flat for $1 million to make the $750K target. Is this realistic? the whole country will be awash in $million HDb flats in order to afford a decent retirement.

CPF under the original guise was a good concept. I would say it was not a failure. But the way the PAP has cut it up and allow this and levy that, in its current form, its an abject failure.

Our hope of our children getting a good education and see themseves through are getting slimmer and slimmer in the face of increased competition from FTs for good schools, uni spots, and the subsidizing of FT education with scholarships, and the general favouritisim in the workplace to FTs and their dragging down of the average wages. Its not looking too good for them.
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear PAP

You forget that the spread that HDB makes from the loan is in fact 0.1 per cent not the full 2.6%, the other 2.5% goes to the CPF board.




Locke
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear PAP, Berkamp


You forget that the spread that HDB makes from the loan is in fact 0.1 per cent not the full 2.6%, the other 2.5% goes to the CPF board.




Locke
 

ChaoPappyPoodle

Alfrescian
Loyal
Don't dilute arguments against the tyrannical PAP and its HDB with issues regarding whether it is a lease or ownership or rental. It is a poor argment with chances of very little headway.

Better to hone in on the major and intrinsic issues with the HDB -
poor planning and construction
poor and yet high maintenance
riiculous grant amount that is not a true subsidy
deliberately hiding information from the public and refusing to answer to sincere and honest questions regarding costs
now HDB seems duty-bound to cater to FTs housing needs at the expense of locals
abuse of the CPF funds by 'forcing' locals to use it for housing needs

Whether the HDB makes .1% or 2.6%, the money goes into the garment coffers. Remember, the HDB magically loses billions each year. The money goes to other other garment agencies.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Dear PAP

You forget that the spread that HDB makes from the loan is in fact 0.1 per cent not the full 2.6%, the other 2.5% goes to the CPF board.




Locke


Once again Locke, your failure to grasp the concept is very disappointing. The HDB is statutorily separate from the CPF, 2 different orgs, 2 different stat boards, etc. The HDB does not give anything from the interest they charge to the CPF. The HDB does not borrow from the CPF for individual mortgages of a tenant. They therefore do not give the CPF anything.

HDB borrows money from the Singapore govt., as well it issues its own bonds to finance its construction of HDB flats. It is true some of the money the HDB borrows from the govt. did come from the CPF, but HDB does not know which portion. The Govt. acts as a lender to HDB, CPF is not a direct lender. In the event that the construction of a persons flat was financed thru a bond issued by the HDB, or even if its not, all the 2.6% interest collected goes to the HDB. Non to CPF. The only spread is what HDB has to pay to the govt. or to bondholders for the their development loan versus what they collect from the tenant. This is not known to us.

I hope this is clear to you.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Hi Papsmearer, you are spot-on about my monthly payment and thank you for the quick reply! However, I have also used $140k from CPF OA as downpayment, when I "sell" my flat, have to repay the $140k plus interest (which probably another $50k +) to my CPF account. Find it ridiculous that I have pay interest for using own CPF OA money...keke.

Yes, hahaha, the CPF is another thread altogether. So, if you look at your total cost of principal and interest $432,367 plus the $140,000 downpayment plus what u think is another $50,000 to CPF, your grand total becomes a whopping $622,367. Don't forget your additional funds needed for the inevitable upgrades down the road.
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear PAP

The loans on the books of both HDB and CPF do not lie. The CPF lends to the gov at 2.5% the gov lends to HDB at 2.6%. One just needs to look at the amount of loans taken by HDB from the GOV and compare the total amount outstanding owed by the GOV to the CPF to get a sense of the numbers. Yes some bonds are issued by HDB at commercial rates but the vast majority of the loans are taken out via special low costs finance loans from the Gov.

The Gov itself can loan money it does not have to HDB. It cannot print money due to central bank and currency board rules. Thus in essence we have the chain you describe above.


Locke
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
There is a difference between leasehold land and lease.

The condominium you buy from a private developer if not freehold land is leasehold land. You will get a title deed for the unit you buy and the unit will show that you are the owner. Since you are the owner, you may pledge the property with the bank (without seeking the developer's consent).

The HDB flat you 'buy' from HDB is not leasehold land. It is a lease i.e. tenancy agreement. Since you are merely a tenant, you do not get a title deed for the unit you 'buy'. Since the HDB unit does not belong to you (remember? you are just a tenant), you may not pledge the property with the bank.

You may ask "then why I could 'mortgage' my HDB flat to the bank for a loan?". This is a creature created by the HDB Act, in which by law your 'interest' in the lease (tenancy) is recognised as a 'mortgageable' interest to borrow money from the bank. Otherwise, under normal circumstances, a lease (tenancy) is not good enough (proprietary) interest to pledge with the bank in exchange for a loan. This why until the changes to the HDB Act in 2004, no one could take loan from a bank to 'buy' HDB flat.

Yes, you are right. However with the HDB act of 2004, there is a deeper reason. Ask your self why for decades, the HDB was self financing flats and than all of a sudden open the doors to the private sector to compete with them via this Act?

The reason is that the Govt. of Singapore started charging high interest rates to HDB for its loans. For a GLC like HDB, there is no reason for them to pay 4.75%, or even 5% + for their bonds and loans. Their credit rating is rock solid. Since the interest rate they charge tenants is pegged to the CPF OA rate plus 0.1%, the HDB in affect have lost money on their loans. They have a negative spread of over 1% and and in some cases 2%. This is one of the reasons why the HDB claims to have lost so much money over the last couple of years. Therefore, by changing the criteria for who can get concessionary loans, and allowing tenants to borrow from public banks, the HDB has shed some of its potential loss making loans on to the backs of the tenants. What people don't realise is that there is no subsidy in the price of the flat, but there is actually a subsidy in the financing portion. But now, those forced to borrow from the bank will pay market rates for their loans, and save HDB the negative spread.
 

po2wq

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
... The reason is that the Govt. of Singapore started charging high interest rates to HDB for its loans. ...
so dat, in turn, ze gahmen has sufficient moni 2 finance obscenely hi salaries 2 ze world's bestest paid politicians ... :mad:
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Dear PAP

The loans on the books of both HDB and CPF do not lie. The CPF lends to the gov at 2.5% the gov lends to HDB at 2.6%. One just needs to look at the amount of loans taken by HDB from the GOV and compare the total amount outstanding owed by the GOV to the CPF to get a sense of the numbers. Yes some bonds are issued by HDB at commercial rates but the vast majority of the loans are taken out via special low costs finance loans from the Gov.

The Gov itself can loan money it does not have to HDB. It cannot print money due to central bank and currency board rules. Thus in essence we have the chain you describe above.


Locke

Locke, I remind you again that this is not what you said.

You forget that the spread that HDB makes from the loan is in fact 0.1 per cent not the full 2.6%, the other 2.5% goes to the CPF board.

Once again, I reiterate the money does not go to the CPF board, but to the govt. Over $10 billion of the loans that HDB carried are not at a sweetheart rate from the govt. The rest is a favourable rate from the govt.

The govt. does print money but not in the literal sense. All govts do that, they just increase and decrease the money supply thru the various means they have at their disposal.
 

streetsmart73

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I find that just talking to people I know, even educated people like school principals and what not, they are totally ignorant about the way the HDB system works. Here are some myths and misconceptions. Please add to them.

1) "I bought my HDB flat"/"I own my HDB flat" - No you didn't and no you don't. You are a tenant, the the HDB is the landlord. Its says so in your contract. Than why did you just pay all that money for? What you have actually done is pre-paid your rent 99 years in advance, in one lump sum. That's why you have to borrow from the bank the $300K or whatever it is to move into your flat. So people, you are pre-paying your rent, not buying your flat. Get this concept first, than everything will fall into place.

2) If I don't own it, than how come I can sell my flat for a lot of money? - What you have sold is not your flat. In other words, the four walls, floor, toilet fixtures etc. do not belong to you. You cannot sell something that does not belong to you. What you have sold to someone else is the right to occupy your flat for the balance of the 99 years lease. Lets say that your flat is 15 years old, which means that you have 84 years left on your list. The person "buying" it is willing to pay you x amount of money for the right to occupy your flat for the next 84 years, and he therefore will enjoy the rights priveleges of your flat instead of you. You have in affect, assigned your flat to someone else, with the stipulation that he will take over all responsibility of the flat (like conveyancing fees, upgrade costs, etc.) in addition to paying you the assignment fee aka purchase price. Its similar to subletting. Because the HDB is your landlord, the HDB has to approve all "sales", as the new person taking over your flat is going to be their new tenant.

3) You are using your retirement income and funds to pay for your current living expenses - By enabling you to buy and pay for the monthly mortgage with your CPF, the PAP has in effect inflated the price of the flats, and forced the people into paying the inflated price by jeopardising their retirement for current living expenses. Most retirement advisors will tell you to pay for your cuurent living expenses with after tax dollars and from income that you are currently earning and not thru the use of funds earmarked for your retirement. But if people were to follow this retirement advise, they will find that their after tax dollars cannot buy too much. Hence, the PAP has allowed them to dip into their CPF account, and allowing to buy flats at an inflated price.

4) Than why do so many people use the CPF to "buy" flats? - People do this because they are ignorant and don't understand the concept of retirement funds and the real purpose of it. You can see many retired aunties and uncles working at menial jobs and barely able to make ends meet in the twilight of their lives. This is a time when they should have been enjoying their retirement and not wondering when the next meal will be. If they had not spend all their money from their CPF paying for their flats, would their lives be easier? The second reason why people use their CPF is because the PAP have set the interest rate so low for the CPF accounts that people actually are losing money in their account because the rate of inflation is higher than what they are getting paid. Even if you max out all the avenues in your CPF to get better returns than what the govt. pays you, you will still not be keeping up with inflation. If the PAP pays people 8%-18% per annum interest on their CPF accounts, much fewer people will be enticed to withdraw funds for the purposes of acquiring a HDB flat. Why do I mention 8%-18%, well this is what GIC, Temasek, and other GLCs ostensibly earn when they borrow money from CPF for their own investment, money that is actually yours. Consequently, people are forced into dipping into their CPF for HDB flats. It is important people understand this PAP tactic.

4)Well, I can sell my flat when I am old and retire on the money that I get - Yes, you could do that. But this is not the 70s and 80s anymore. The days of buying a $70,000 flat and selling it 25 years later for $400K are gone. There are many cases now of people losing money on their flats. And if you sell it, where would you live? Would you rent for the remaining years of your live? Would you downsize and buy a smaller and cheaper flat? Nowadays, its not unusual to purchase a $400K flat and still have to renovate it. If your flat ends up costing you $500K after reno and what not, how much do you have to sell it for 25 years later to make enough money to retire comfortably on? $1 million? The market for this price is iffy. And if you stay in the same flat for a long time, lets say 50 years or more, your flat will actually start to decline in value as the maturation of the leasehold period approaches. If you sell your flat at the highest point of its value, lets say in 10-20 years, where will you live? You will still need buy another flat at the new higher price to live in for the remaining 30 years of your life.

5) Is what I pay for this flat really all I pay? - The simple answer is no. If you pay x amount for the flat, you have to factor in the following:-
- Opportunity costs of foregone returns from your CPF that you have used on the flat.
- Mandatory HDB money making schemes like upgrades that will add to the capital cost of your flat. In every country in the world, if the building has deteriorated to the degree that upgrades are needed, its the landlord that bares the burden. In uniquely SIngapore, the tenants pay for it.
- Conservancy charges, that keep going up and not down.
- Possible forced relocation to another flat in a new estate because your block has now be taken over by the HDB for demolition/rental to FTs, etc. Forced relocation means you have to now pay additional money for the new flat they want you to move to, hence increasing your capital costs.

6) The long term consequence is a very expensive housing costs - If you look at many European and Asian countries like Japan, you will find that the same property stays in the same family for generations. Just imagine if a person owning a freehold property in another country can pass his property on to his son, and than the son pases it on his grandson, etc. over 3 generations. By the end of the 3rd generation, the property could be worth a lot of money. In the same scenario in S'pore, the property is worth nothing.

So, what is the solution? The main gist of the solution is to minimize your exposure to the HDB. Some solutions I can think of:
- Create 2 family households in a flat rather than one household. Kongsi with your siblings or parents and live in one flat.
- Rent from the HDB instead of "buying"
- Live in JB, commute to S'pore, after all 300K Malaysians do that every day.

The whole game is set up for the HDB/PAP to win. They have set the rules, but this thread is intended to educate the people as to what some of these rules are. It does not mean that you will win the game, but it helps to know what they are.


hi there


1. bro, kudos to you. well done!
2. recommend you to forward the article to ah cow, who claimed that it is affordable, mah!
 
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