[GPGT] GOH MENG SENG criticise Chen Show Mao speech + responses from netizens

[eatshitndie]

sg is run unlike any other country. it is run as sg inc., thus ceo, cfo, cto, cio, cmo salaries are justified. and ministers have double, sometimes triple duties and responsibilities. besides running the country to constantly produce budget surpluses, they have oversight over the success and profitability of glc's and mnc's as direct investments contribute to the wealth of the country. their enactment of policies also affect every dollar invested in sg, including appreciation of real estate and further expansion of wealth. the multiplication of wealth in such critical mass is far more beneficial to any modern society than all month to month pay checks put together. renumeration in such puny terms becomes insignificant when all things are considered. the massive amount of wealth and investments on the macro stage should produce "trickle down" economics in the micro level - the fact that majority of sinkies are happy with the pap and continue to vote for them is a testament of the above mentioned. thus, i would agree that sg ministers deserve what they get, and perhaps more, as a million or more a year is tiny compensation for trillions involved. let's see what would happen if those trillions were to vaporize in the wrong hands. you can pretty much forget about your paycheck and pitiful assets, including your ah beng auto and hdb flat.

 

[hurley]

Let's look at it this way.

The PAP has had their way all these years enriching themselves under the existing formula. If the price of a widget reflects its true value, then we should be getting top of the first world country performance galore. But what do we get?

We had to pay $10 for shitty $1.50 chye tow kuey. That's the issue.

the problem is, even the 60.4% of pappie supporters don't even know where to buy this $1.50 chye tow kuey

how do you profile a PAP minister? carries kate spade, eats $10 chye tow kuey even when his/her standard of living is affected by the revision of their salary

 

[Leongsam]

Don't worry about my existentialist credentials. I have been here I daresay as long as you have.

You obviously lived in a different world from the rest of us. In my part of town, we had to pump up kerosine lamps every night for light. My school uniform was ironed with device fueled with charcoal. Cooking was a wood burner or charcoal stove. Running water was down the road 500 metres away. 8.5 sing dollars was required to buy a British Pound.

Yes the people were happier but that was because the mere act of living from day to day brought satisfaction and a trip to the movies was something you could look forward to for a whole month.

Nowadays people are unhappy because they can't afford the latest Merc. There is simply no comparison.

 

[kingrant]

There sure were streetlamps, rediffusion, black n white TV, flourescent lights in tin shed CCs, radios, electric trams, far from being a basket case; so where were you?

Those consumer appliances were not available to most people anyway, so there was better social equity. Income distribution was fairly narrow. Singapore was in a state of economic underdevelopment, but to label it as a basket case, is definitely dishonest.

People now are unhappy because the govt took our money but didnt do a good job. They are not demanding a Merc for themselves. They just want $10 chye tow kuey when they paid $10.

You obviously lived in a different world from the rest of us. In my part of town, we had to pump up kerosine lamps every night for light. My school uniform was ironed with device fueled with charcoal. Cooking was a wood burner or charcoal stove. Running water was down the road 500 metres away. 8.5 sing dollars was required to buy a British Pound.

Yes the people were happier but that was because the mere act of living from day to day brought satisfaction and a trip to the movies was something you could look forward to for a whole month.

Nowadays people are unhappy because they can't afford the latest Merc. There is simply no comparison.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

I will not be surprised if people like Leongsam believe that it is because of the PAP that Raffles, the British and Japanese made Singapore their HQ for the region. :*:

 

[Leongsam]

There sure were streetlamps, rediffusion, black n white TV, flourescent lights in tin shed CCs, radios, electric trams, far from being a basket case; so where were you?

There were street lamps outside my home. There was black and white TV at the community centre. However, there was no electricity in my home. There was no electricity in my neighbour's home. There was no electricity in the hundreds of tin and attap huts that surrounded me.

There was electricity in the homes of the British Armed Forces personnel who lived in the next Lorong. Even a freakin' Lance Corporal had electricity. They had running water too... and a flushing toilet. The Brits had no plans to extend these luxuries to me and my family.

While I was living in a hut and cycling to school, across East Coast Road from where I lived were the homes of the rich. Their houses were monstrosities with acres of land including tennis courts, badminton courts and swimming pools. They had live in gardeners, drivers and armies of black and white servants to take care of themselves and their children. In their 3 car garages were Mercs and Jags. You have the gall to tell me that there was less income disparity in those days??? My family got by on less than $180 per month while the rich owned tin mines, rubber plantations, banks, bus companies, factories plus half of Singapore real estate. If LKY had not acquired their lands, the disparity would have grown even wider.

I have to say you're really talking through your arse.

 

[kingrant]

You said Singapore was a basket case because it had no electricity, no water etc. so I gave you examples to disprove you. Now you agree Singapore has them. Only you dont get them because you didnt pay for them. Also, we were just a colony.

Well, under the enlightened home rule of the PAP, today, even when you dont pay up, the PUB and the SP Services will cut off electricity or water to your home.

There are certainly always the rich who lived in big houses as there have been the poor who lived in the shadows. I am not saying all this should disappear for there to be no income disparity. The income gap is I am sure not as aggravated as it is now.

There were street lamps outside my home. There was black and white TV at the community centre. However, there was no electricity in my home. There was no electricity in my neighbour's home. There was no electricity in the hundreds of tin and attap huts that surrounded me.

There was electricity in the homes of the British Armed Forces personnel who lived in the next Lorong. Even a freakin' Lance Corporal had electricity. They had running water too... and a flushing toilet. The Brits had no plans to extend these luxuries to me and my family.

 

[Leongsam]

You said Singapore was a basket case because it had no electricity, no water etc. so I gave you examples to disprove you.

Nowhere did I say that the whole freakin' Island had no electricity. I said and I quote :

I don't know when you came into existence but when Singapore was still a British Colony, it looked very much like a basket case through my eyes. Sanitation was non existent. Running water was a luxury. So was electricity. The currency was worthless. Roads in the outlying areas were nothing more than m&d tracks which were unusable when it rained.

If you're going to start putting words in my mouth, civilized debate is not possible.

 

[GoldenDragon]

FolksThere is serious debate raging here on the pay model but the title is misleading. Would suggest in future to start a new thread once you realise that its not about GMS and mving to another subject. Other readers might skip this thread based on title.

I am the opposite. Will never skip any thread featuring GMS. Will ignore all others and devote myself faithfully to comments made by a sage.

 

[brocoli]

FolksThere is serious debate raging here on the pay model but the title is misleading. Would suggest in future to start a new thread once you realise that its not about GMS and mving to another subject. Other readers might skip this thread based on title.

why insult the TS????

 

[sleaguepunter]

There are certainly always the rich who lived in big houses as there have been the poor who lived in the shadows. I am not saying all this should disappear for there to be no income disparity. The income gap is I am sure not as aggravated as it is now.

not i want to side ah leong but in those days, the rich can do whatever they want and those days there no middle class to speak of. at least now, as long lawsuits dont involve the papigs, the courts wont turn away the poor. most ppl then mostly rent a room that have a whole family of 5-7 persons in a 4x4 room. my mum grew up in such an era, nothing to be happy about.

 

[elephanto]

I am the opposite. Will never skip any thread featuring GMS. Will ignore all others and devote myself faithfully to comments made by a sage.

I am exactly like u, Kim leng.Got GMS being mentioned I sure zoom in ha ha ha

 

[kingrant]

Well, what I am trying to say is that just cos you didnt have running water and electricity in yr home does not mean that Singapore is a basket case.

You didnt pay taxes either, so why are you complaining?

You also said that when the rain fell then, the roads became unusable into a river of m&d.

Well, at least we didnt pay the British enormous sums to take care of us, so we shouldnt complain. Now you pay millions to the govt, they still give you an unwanted brown river in Orchard Road, and they want you to believe it is a pond. Maybe we still dont pay enough to get a river.

Nowhere did I say that the whole freakin' Island had no electricity. I said and I quote :



If you're going to start putting words in my mouth, civilized debate is not possible.

 

[GoldenDragon]

I am exactly like u, Kim leng.Got GMS being mentioned I sure zoom in ha ha ha

Hokkien nang kong, wa nang kak GMS wu yien.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

When I read Pritam's speech and watch the "cross-fire" between DPM Teo and Gerald Giam, I could not stop feeling that WP has totally lost its plot.

What's the difference between pegging wages to Admin Service superscale (MR4) vs entry level senior civil servant MX9 grade? Apparently they don't really know that the civil servant pay is highly pegged to each other in hierarchic order and in return, the salaries were again pegged according to "market competitive rate" which basically means, in principle, what WP has proposed is totally the same as what PAP has been doing all this while!

This is proven by the fact that MR4 is 5 times of MX9 which is why WP ends up with the exactly the same number, $55K for basic monthly pay. WP is just like a blind man taking a walk round and round, coming back to the same point but insisting that they are walking the different path as PAP!

Politically speaking, they have failed badly in letting PAP to paint them into the corner by saying, hey, WP is no different from PAP! So next time, please shut up about high ministerial pay!

On top of that, Gerald Giam has exposed WP's weakness, they don't really know what they are talking about! They don't know how the civil service pay is being determined and just blindly use it as a peg and say it is different... but it is definitely no different!

What Gerald Giam should have said in retort is that if WP is to become the ruling party, the formula and principle in determining the civil service pay scale would have changed as well! That is to say, we are very different from PAP after all and please don't keep saying we are the same as you! But Gerald Giam failed miserably and didn't understand the art of Parry and Strike. He just basically walks right into the hole which is unwittingly dug by his own party with a slight push by DPM Teo!

Gerald Giam's inability to debate effectively was seen in his first cross fire with Vikram when he actually admits that WP's proposed basic monthly pay for entry level ministers are the same with what has been proposed by the review committee. What he should have done is to reiterate that when the whole package is taken into consideration, the quantum is totally different. He should have stressed on the fact that the bonuses are different, instead of replying directly to such a "trap question".

But I bet he has tried his best. The fault lies with an ill-thought proposal which lacks the depth in analyzing the political implications as well as the realistic implementation issue. Layman just couldn't be bothered with all those confusing figures and their argument will be all buried with those figures. The opponents will definitely amplified the obvious figures cited, the same $55k basic monthly salary. The indifference between pegging to MX9 and MR4.

Whoever behind them, the think tank and such should be shot for coming up with such disastrous proposal which eventually sinks the MPs during the debate. I am really dismayed at such performance and palm face when I see how WP members being slaughtered mercilessly in parliament these few days.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Just watch this video on the cross fire between DPM Teo vs Gerald Giam. Poor Gerald Giam has been pawned.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/parliament/video_archive.php?blurb=DPM-Teo-replies-to-clarifications-sought-by-MPs-Chen-Show-Mao-and-Gerald-Giam-He-calls-on-the-House-to-come-together-to-accept-the-review-committees-recommendations-which-provide-competitive-benchmarking-against-the-market&video=_Parl%20Floor_20120118_clarifications.flv&title=parliament_20120118__Parl-Floor_20120118_clarifications

Goh Meng Seng

 

[brocoli]

When I read Pritam's speech and watch the "cross-fire" between DPM Teo and Gerald Giam, I could not stop feeling that WP has totally lost its plot.

What's the difference between pegging wages to Admin Service superscale (MR4) vs entry level senior civil servant MX9 grade? Apparently they don't really know that the civil servant pay is highly pegged to each other in hierarchic order and in return, the salaries were again pegged according to "market competitive rate" which basically means, in principle, what WP has proposed is totally the same as what PAP has been doing all this while!

This is proven by the fact that MR4 is 5 times of MX9 which is why WP ends up with the exactly the same number, $55K for basic monthly pay. WP is just like a blind man taking a walk round and round, coming back to the same point but insisting that they are walking the different path as PAP!

Politically speaking, they have failed badly in letting PAP to paint them into the corner by saying, hey, WP is no different from PAP! So next time, please shut up about high ministerial pay!

On top of that, Gerald Giam has exposed WP's weakness, they don't really know what they are talking about! They don't know how the civil service pay is being determined and just blindly use it as a peg and say it is different... but it is definitely no different!

What Gerald Giam should have said in retort is that if WP is to become the ruling party, the formula and principle in determining the civil service pay scale would have changed as well! That is to say, we are very different from PAP after all and please don't keep saying we are the same as you! But Gerald Giam failed miserably and didn't understand the art of Parry and Strike. He just basically walks right into the hole which is unwittingly dug by his own party with a slight push by DPM Teo!

Gerald Giam's inability to debate effectively was seen in his first cross fire with Vikram when he actually admits that WP's proposed basic monthly pay for entry level ministers are the same with what has been proposed by the review committee. What he should have done is to reiterate that when the whole package is taken into consideration, the quantum is totally different. He should have stressed on the fact that the bonuses are different, instead of replying directly to such a "trap question".

But I bet he has tried his best. The fault lies with an ill-thought proposal which lacks the depth in analyzing the political implications as well as the realistic implementation issue. Layman just couldn't be bothered with all those confusing figures and their argument will be all buried with those figures. The opponents will definitely amplified the obvious figures cited, the same $55k basic monthly salary. The indifference between pegging to MX9 and MR4.

Whoever behind them, the think tank and such should be shot for coming up with such disastrous proposal which eventually sinks the MPs during the debate. I am really dismayed at such performance and palm face when I see how WP members being slaughtered mercilessly in parliament these few days.

Goh Meng Seng

I was going to start a thread when isaw the peekture below......

"when is GMS goin to start a thread mocking GG"" but you preempt me...!!


quick kwestion... did you know about MX9 ???

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

"when is GMS goin to start a thread mocking GG"" but you preempt me...!!


quick kwestion... did you know about MX9 ???

It doesn't matter to me if I know MX9 or not but I do know super scale civil servant pay is pegged to the top income earners, not the "general public salary scale". How could it be when you are talking about "competitive wages"? For WP to claim that they also believe in "competitive wage" is already a step towards self destruction because not many Singaporeans earn $11K per month! And in order to have "competitive wages", you will have to "price" your salary competitively to the market... those who is earning $11k as well! And $11k is DEFINITELY NOT a common man's salary scale!

That is why I feel that WP has exposed not only their ignorance but also their naivety in coming up with this proposal. They didn't go through a thorough thought process but just put up a proposal without firm structure and believe that this is a bright idea which dispel "elitism". They should have stuck with LTK's earliest idea of pegging to the lowest 20% income group which gives specific, concise and clear direction and intends, instead of burying themselves into figures with principles which they are totally ignorant about.

As the Hokkien saying goes, kiang jiu hor, mai kei kiang!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[brocoli]

It doesn't matter to me if I know MX9 or not but I do know super scale civil servant pay is pegged to the top income earners, not the "general public salary scale". How could it be when you are talking about "competitive wages"? For WP to claim that they also believe in "competitive wage" is already a step towards self destruction because not many Singaporeans earn $11K per month! And in order to have "competitive wages", you will have to "price" your salary competitively to the market... those who is earning $11k as well! And $11k is DEFINITELY NOT a common man's salary scale!

That is why I feel that WP has exposed not only their ignorance but also their naivety in coming up with this proposal. They didn't go through a thorough thought process but just put up a proposal without firm structure and believe that this is a bright idea which dispel "elitism". They should have stuck with LTK's earliest idea of pegging to the lowest 20% income group which gives specific, concise and clear direction and intends, instead of burying themselves into figures with principles which they are totally ignorant about.

As the Hokkien saying goes, kiang jiu hor, mai kei kiang!

Goh Meng Seng

you know .... as much as i hate to admit ....

you are right....

the massacre actually did not stop there ....@ what you see on TV... off screen after that in parliament

he was actually reprimanded like a school boy by BG tan .... and Heng Chee How join in , although Heng Chee How was like a kind principal compare to the tough macho guy BG Tan who like a sibei siao on guardman....

 

[GoldenDragon]

It doesn't matter to me if I know MX9 or not but I do know super scale civil servant pay is pegged to the top income earners, not the "general public salary scale". How could it be when you are talking about "competitive wages"? For WP to claim that they also believe in "competitive wage" is already a step towards self destruction because not many Singaporeans earn $11K per month! And in order to have "competitive wages", you will have to "price" your salary competitively to the market... those who is earning $11k as well! And $11k is DEFINITELY NOT a common man's salary scale!

That is why I feel that WP has exposed not only their ignorance but also their naivety in coming up with this proposal. They didn't go through a thorough thought process but just put up a proposal without firm structure and believe that this is a bright idea which dispel "elitism". They should have stuck with LTK's earliest idea of pegging to the lowest 20% income group which gives specific, concise and clear direction and intends, instead of burying themselves into figures with principles which they are totally ignorant about.

As the Hokkien saying goes, kiang jiu hor, mai kei kiang!

Goh Meng Seng

A pity you lost in the GE. If only you had won. Your presence in parliament wiould send shivers down the spine of all MIWs. LKY would then realise they did not search well. Otherwise you would have been spotted. Straightaway you be made minister. In your case maybe direct as DPM. Surely you are miles ahead of HSK eh?