Give us HDB flats AT COST, not 30 yrs Mortgage Enslavement!

[Ramseth]

No men as rich and mobile and virile as GMS can go Shenzhen so many times without ending up with golden house to keep beauty. GMS may be exceptional, the role model many are looking for, unyielding to temptation even at close proximity and easy availability. But I don't know. I never follow him to Shenzhen.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

No men as rich and mobile and virile as GMS can go Shenzhen so many times without ending up with golden house to keep beauty. GMS may be exceptional, the role model many are looking for, unyielding to temptation even at close proximity and easy availability. But I don't know. I never follow him to Shenzhen.

You know, I am not someone like you who will go around to fool around, worse, get photographed and people put it up on internet! Well, of course you are now single but even if I am single, I would be very shy of such things.

Jokes aside, it is a matter of moral upbringing and personal religious training. Nothing so great about it. I believe there are many other people who will not succumb to temptations as well.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[SneeringTree]

Of course fixing the perverse public housing market in Singapore will have tsunamic impacts. But if not now then when????

Those who keep thinking about the (economic) fallout are somewhat misguided. It is almost akin to a cancer patient not wanting to have chemo because of fear of the side effects!

I support GMS in this issue completely! The technicalities of the solution can be worked out but there must be a recognition (as he has recognized) that the public housing market is fundamentally, fatally flawed and unsustainable.

 

[Ramseth]

You know, I am not someone like you who will go around to fool around, worse, get photographed and people put it up on internet! Well, of course you are now single but even if I am single, I would be very shy of such things.

Jokes aside, it is a matter of moral upbringing and personal religious training. Nothing so great about it. I believe there are many other people who will not succumb to temptations as well.

Yes, as a matter of personal upbringing, my parents thought me to be responsible. When I was married, zero affair. Divorce settlement, zero alimony, can't prove any fault on my part. My ex-wife still a good friend amicably, visited me when I'm hospitalized.

Yes, I had fun in birthday parties and the likes. I hugged and kissed girls, they do me too. What's wrong with that? Did any girl complain molest or harrassment? No. We had fun together. Lighten up, pal.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

It is also important to be content. When one is contented with what they have it is difficult to stray.

And, it is not difficult if you do not put yourself in a difficult position to begin with.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Of course fixing the perverse public housing market in Singapore will have tsunamic impacts. But if not now then when????

Those who keep thinking about the (economic) fallout are somewhat misguided. It is almost akin to a cancer patient not wanting to have chemo because of fear of the side effects!

I support GMS in this issue completely! The technicalities of the solution can be worked out but there must be a recognition (as he has recognized) that the public housing market is fundamentally, fatally flawed and unsustainable.

We must realise that MBT is not the lone problem. IF indeed MBT loses his seat but the PAPies remain in power, then some other PAPpy will take his place and the same HDB will continue as per normal.

MBT doesn't work alone. He works for his political party, the PAP. IT is the PAP that has to be stopped.

Hopefully, GMS (NSP) and the other Alternative PArties can have some solidarity when it comes to macro policies such as housing, FTs, CPF, healthcare, GIC/Temasek, NTUC because we need a united front for such policies to be believable by the public and for the public to vote based on these issues.

INdeed we need strong medicine for such a disease that the PAPies have created. But this is actually medicine that people will like. They just need convincing that it will work and that there is a united front to make it happen

 

[shOUTloud]

I am sorry, GMS. I read through your solution and I still dun understand how it can be a "final solution". By selling HDB flats at costs, you will bring prices down.

Fair enough, you help to get prices down to costs. So younger Singaporeans get to buy these flats at good prices. Why do you think prices will stay down? What will happen is that these Singaporeans will sell their flats at a higher price and buy condo?

I agree that the current situation is untenable but what you are proposing is ridiculous.

IMHO, the whole issue is about demand and supply. HDB is flooding the market with HDB flats and they should continue to do so. Let property prices continue to slide maybe about 20-30% (which is a hefty 100k on most transaction). There will be a group seriously pissed but at least there is a new equilibrium.

Frankly, the situation for me is a no-lose situation either way but I do not agree with your solution.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

You must understand in new HDB flat market, HDB is the monopoly and it can and has fixed prices according to its wishes.

If young Singaporeans could afford to buy condo after staying for 5 years, why not? But on one hand, some claim resale market will crash, but on the other hand, you think they could sell at good price that is good enough to buy a condo?

Buying a condo will involve in mortgage payment as well. Most people cannot afford it even if they could get enough cash to pay the down payment; i.e. their income cannot support the monthly mortgage payment.

Similarly, even with this method, a new equilibrium will be reached. Those who are earning $2000 per month will still stay put. They sell their flats, they will have to buy a flat somewhere to stay at higher price. Most importantly, their income cannot support.

Goh Meng Seng

I am sorry, GMS. I read through your solution and I still dun understand how it can be a "final solution". By selling HDB flats at costs, you will bring prices down.

Fair enough, you help to get prices down to costs. So younger Singaporeans get to buy these flats at good prices. Why do you think prices will stay down? What will happen is that these Singaporeans will sell their flats at a higher price and buy condo?

I agree that the current situation is untenable but what you are proposing is ridiculous.

IMHO, the whole issue is about demand and supply. HDB is flooding the market with HDB flats and they should continue to do so. Let property prices continue to slide maybe about 20-30% (which is a hefty 100k on most transaction). There will be a group seriously pissed but at least there is a new equilibrium.

Frankly, the situation for me is a no-lose situation either way but I do not agree with your solution.

 

[SickSinkies]

who wants to buy crappy pigeon holes ?

public housing is for poor Third World Cuntry .

 

[shOUTloud]

GMS, what you are doing is transferring the pain from one party to another. Basically you are taking away the pain from the younger group who has yet to buy flats and transfer the pain to the group that just bought over the past 2-3 years. I am not sure why this is a good solution.

A better solution is to gradually deflate the market by flooding it with new flats and slowly let the prices come down. This will spread the pain amongst a larger group.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

GMS, what you are doing is transferring the pain from one party to another. Basically you are taking away the pain from the younger group who has yet to buy flats and transfer the pain to the group that just bought over the past 2-3 years. I am not sure why this is a good solution.

A better solution is to gradually deflate the market by flooding it with new flats and slowly let the prices come down. This will spread the pain amongst a larger group.

You see, when the asset enhancement scheme started, it is also a transfer of pain. People thought they are suddenly "richer", sell flat buy another one... But they are fooled, they are transferring the pain to their children and future generations.

In this case, it is less pain. Yes, younger couples are buying at lower price but just too bad. However, at the resale market front, your flat value doesn't differ too much. I think it is only reasonable to safeguard our future generations' rights and well being. We have suffered but at least we should save our children from this evil scheme.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[shOUTloud]

I do not disagree with you on the "pain" issue. My issue is whether it should be a revolution or evolution. You are proposing a revolution while I think an evolution is more palatable. Cheers!

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I do not disagree with you on the "pain" issue. My issue is whether it should be a revolution or evolution. You are proposing a revolution while I think an evolution is more palatable. Cheers!

Flooding the market with new HDB flats won't work effectively as long as the pricing mechanism of fixing price to resale market conditions. This is because, as explained, the two markets are segmented. Most of those who are in resale market are people who cannot buy direct from HDB.

Unless you are saying that HDB is willing to lower price.. but on what basis?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[aurvandil]

Goh Meng Seng

I would like to suggest that before we take this big step, let us first gather more data. At this point in time, we still do not know the final cost of HDB flats. People have been doing estimates via awarded GeBiz tenders but the methodology by which the land cost component is calculated appears to be a mystery.

I would like to suggest perhaps as a first step, you should first campaign to get MBT to release the cost it takes to build HDB flats. This was done by Minister Teh in 1981 and there does not appear to be any national interest issues for why this information cannot be released into the public domain.

After we know the cost of building HDB flats, you can then go to phase 2 of your program which would be to come up with a better pricing mechanism for new HDB flats.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Aurvandil,

That would be a good route map!

I just want to set it straight that this government is bind by the social contract embedded in the Land Acquisition Act to provide cheap BASIC Public Housing for Singaporeans.

I am even ok for a pricing mechanism that would give HDB a profit of 5% or 10% over cost price. No problem with that. The problem now is that HDB allows excess liquidity to dictate the price and washes its hands off its original responsibility.

Goh Meng Seng

Goh Meng Seng

I would like to suggest that before we take this big step, let us first gather more data. At this point in time, we still do not know the final cost of HDB flats. People have been doing estimates via awarded GeBiz tenders but the methodology by which the land cost component is calculated appears to be a mystery.

I would like to suggest perhaps as a first step, you should first campaign to get MBT to release the cost it takes to build HDB flats. This was done by Minister Teh in 1981 and there does not appear to be any national interest issues for why this information cannot be released into the public domain.

After we know the cost of building HDB flats, you can then go to phase 2 of your program which would be to come up with a better pricing mechanism for new HDB flats.

 

[elephanto]

I would like to suggest perhaps as a first step, you should first campaign to get MBT to release the cost it takes to build HDB flats. This was done by Minister Teh in 1981 and there does not appear to be any national interest issues for why this information cannot be released into the public domain.

After we know the cost of building HDB flats, you can then go to phase 2 of your program which would be to come up with a better pricing mechanism for new HDB flats.

I fully second this.

For too long, policy debate is no level playing field for the opp or the public due to lack of relevant info & stats. Such a demand is legitimate & the public have a right to know.

As GMS noted too, it is a good route map - a reasoned step by step challenge to the ruling party which all fair-minded concerned citizens can rally to.

 

[Ramseth]

I would like to suggest perhaps as a first step, you should first campaign to get MBT to release the cost it takes to build HDB flats. This was done by Minister Teh in 1981 and there does not appear to be any national interest issues for why this information cannot be released into the public domain.

On the contrary, it's very dangerous. It had led to a ministerial suicide and would never be allowed to happen again.

 

[lifeafter41]

From:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=370393600858&ref=nf

My father's generation may just pay 10 to 15 yrs mortgage to get a decent HDB flat, I have to pay 20 yrs. But now, my children in future, will have to pay 30yrs or even more. Yet, Minister Mah still claims that HDB is affordable!

For young couples nowadays, don't expect to have any retirement at 62. You will be forced to work until 75 or more. This is because if you marry at 30 yrs old, you won't be able to finish paying up your mortgage before 60 years old!

And please bear in mind, according to HDB's calculations, you will be using all the available money in your CPF! You will have minimum amount of money by the time you reach 60. This is the kind of plan PAP government and HDB has installed for you.

40 years of mortgage, also affordable. Nevertheless, is that the reason why lately there has been a lot of activity in the HDB reasle market. Are Singaporeans buying up the flat for their children, in anticipation, of the relentless prices increase and they do not want their children to be paying 40 years of mortgage on a leasehold 99 years place.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Goh Meng Seng

I would like to suggest that before we take this big step, let us first gather more data. At this point in time, we still do not know the final cost of HDB flats. People have been doing estimates via awarded GeBiz tenders but the methodology by which the land cost component is calculated appears to be a mystery.

I would like to suggest perhaps as a first step, you should first campaign to get MBT to release the cost it takes to build HDB flats. This was done by Minister Teh in 1981 and there does not appear to be any national interest issues for why this information cannot be released into the public domain.

After we know the cost of building HDB flats, you can then go to phase 2 of your program which would be to come up with a better pricing mechanism for new HDB flats.

The last time MBT was asked, he told the HDB to shut out any request for information. Do not expect the PAPies to give you anything that can be used against them. Stop being naive.

You will get nothing. It is as simple as that. Stop deluding yourself. And if the sun turns blue and you do get something from them, expect to get nothing useful. Wake up people. This is the PAP you are talking about.

You do not need the actual figures to do something concrete. Ballpak figures are good enough to expound on your premise that housing is not affordable and that the PAP's idea of affordable housing requires 25+ years to pay off and at the expense of funds for retirement.

Further, Wong CUnt Seng has suggested about 500,000 new FTs in the next 5years. I can assure you that the HDB will not be able to build enough homes to accomodate these new FTs. And we haven't even factored in Singaporeans.

As long as Singaporeans do not have the time to venture into civil society pursuits it will suit the PAPies just fine.

The PAPies have a totally different agenda to that of being a government for the people. Their emphasis is higher GDP so that they look good and their fat pay checks get fatter. What is included in that GDP is not of their concern.

We are all screwed as long as the PAPies remain in power. It is as simple as that.

 

[Gillette]

For public housing, current construction cost is approximately S$150 psf of GFA. Just check the HDB tender award announcements from listed contractors like Lian Beng, etc.
Consulting firm RLB also gives quarterly estimates of construction costs of various sectors from mid to high end residential, retail, office and hotels. Construction cost excludes the cost of preparing the land for urban use. eg, roads, drains, utility pipes...