CSJ ‘exposed the pretensions of PAP’ – CALD Chairman

[jw5]

I remember reading that but cant remember who. Who said that? You said that? Then not bad LOL

It was by you Ramseth.

 

[HedgeTrader]

It was by you Ramseth.

Suddenly I become Ramseth again just because he disappear. OK lah you better ask Vamjok want to call me dad or notr LOL

 

[jw5]

Suddenly I become Ramseth again just because he disappear. OK lah you better ask Vamjok want to call me dad or notr LOL

Dear Ramseth

Vamjok has been in this forum including delphi since the year 2000.
Your nickname Ramseth later than that in 2002 or 3.
Your 1st clone was in Sep 2010.
Your 2nd clone HedgeTrader in Aug 2011.
Ok, enough for now, please set up more clones and let your ego continue to expose you.
This forum has become the hunting ground for your self esteem.

 

[HedgeTrader]

Wah now I seriously involved as Ramseth clone but nevermind lah, just forum LOL

FYI I was there since beginning 1998 YPAP forum. Ramseth was there using Vincent nick. He was kingpin there. But halfway change nick to Ramseth. He got make announcement change nick also. No need to guess. YPAP forum later kana moderate hard and we all ranroad to Delphi Sammyboy. Me also under another nick. Then Delphi Sammyboy closed for for awhile and I also fuck forget it. GE time I came back to read again, later register and post again. Believe or not is your biz LOL

You say I Ramseth then I Ramseth lor also no diff to me just passtime forumming only LOL

 

[jw5]

You say I Ramseth then I Ramseth lor also no diff to me just passtime forumming only LOL

Ok then Ramseth, move on.
One more thing, u can write like a moron if u want on any topics of your choice, but cut out the LOL copycat.
And please stop mocking the forum and its members.
If u were really interested in CSJ, u would be in leetabar's threads, using whichever nickname.
The main reason why u are in this thread is because lockeliberal, perspective, scroobal, cleareyes, etc are all here, forummers u either know personally or dislike.

 

[HedgeTrader]

You a bit kee siao liao. I write what I like is my biz. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

You can dont read LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[mojito]

I don't see any evidence of RP standing out. A look at the management of the party definitely shows something about KJ that caused the exodus - and it's definitely not democratic. The principles are best applied to how you run your organisation, not how loud it is placed in your manifesto. The RP defectors certainly didn't leave RP because they got to discover what JBJ stood for - it's because they saw how different KJ was from JBJ.

Share your sentiments bro. However my point was not about whether they left because of difference in opinions regarding RP's platform, but rather that they joined out of impulse or sniffed a chance for political office.

To be sure, I meant to refer to individuals who gathered under the banner of JBJ before his passing. Out of the woodwork that is RP, there are advocates for human rights, more comprehensive social nets, and disaffected citizens campaigning bread and butter issues. If the issues they champion are anything to go by, these are very loose interpretation (possibly a departure) of what reforms are really needed to separate the Party from the organs of the state, the domestic economy and the civil service. So could you say they fully comprehended JBJ's motivations for setting up the party, judging from their words and deeds after leaving it?

Why I mentioned them in this thread was, unlike RP which has yet to make a significant impact despite carrying the mantle of JBJ, CSJ's actions demonstrated (excuse the pun) the 'cozy' relationships between the party and the state, challenging the legitimacy of the establishment with his 'Tak Boleh Tahan' movement and what's not.

 

[elephanto]

I read with interest the subsequent posts.

Am gratified in this decidedly anti-estab, hypocrisy-hating forum with types ranging from the rabid to the clueless, there are still gems of sane cogent opinions fairly expressed.

It is largely true that Chee doesn't resonate with the majority of Singaporeans - that explains SDP's standing.

But like the others who described him categorically for who he is, I must say I share the same view.

Chee - whatever your take on him - has convictions and has stood up for his convictions.

Many of us can't - either not foolhardy enough or have all sorts of sane considerations.

For that, I too, believe Chee deserves some credit for having balls of conscience.

Unlikely politician, ACS days etc etc .... that set me thinking.

No one is born, setting out to be a politician. Even LKY alludes to WW2, Jap treatment of him & the times : they propel him into public life.

Consider the others:-

Everyone was simply minding their business etching out a living - in their chosen professions.

JBJ was a magistrate at court in the early 60s. When David Marshall abandoned Worker's Party he founded, JBJ took over WP as his vehicle into politics.

Francis Seow was Solicitor-General, then his high living and other 'juicy insider' developments, he left the Legal Service, then Gemini Chit Fund episode then ........ then 80s, emerge to win the Law Society Presidency .... then under moral pressure from Govt, took up Henrickson's cajoling advice, kena ISD-ed, then joined WP. Then fled claiming persecution (may be true but he is not as clean as a hound's tooth in money matters too), so MC, sick to travel to appear in court, then long term squatter in Harvard U.

Likewise, Chee. Academic, lecturer in Neuro-Psychology under Vasoo's Art's & Soial Science Faculty ... joined SDP etc etc

PAP under LKY is all pragmatism & realpolitik - but crucially produces results.
So much so, confucian Lee believes he has inherited the HEavenly Mandate to govern & voters, damn it, can't you guys just rubber stamp us at every election.

It doesn't help that the riff-raff Opp politicians in the 70s cause one-party Parliament & clean sweeps to be the order of the day in the 70s.

So Lee gets to be convinced all the good men are in his grasp, Oppo is bankrupt for ideas & talent. JBJ, oh ! That Anglophile is so dying heart British Liberal/Labour type that will go on & on on rights & welfare.... bear with him, he can't win.

Then Anson.
Then volswagen nerd Chiam who lost in 76 to Lim Kim San (Cairnhill), then lost again in 1980 to Howe Yoong Cheong in Potong Pasir, shits! this modest 'O' Level performer actually beat scholar Mah Bow Tan in 1984 !

Lee vowed: out will come my knuckle-dusters, must impress upon my chosen 2nd Generation Leaders (Woody & Gang), how to deal with political opponents....

Queensberry rules be damned, I will dig into your past, lives stripped bare, skeletons exposed - mine is not called 'character assassination', because you guys opposing me? You guys are not good enough, so they are 'character flaws' in the 1st place for me to expose. In elections in the 80s, these 'expos^es' are in the form of A4 leaflets specially produced during the middle of the short campaign to deal fatal blows to their electoral chances....

Fast Forward to the 21st century where:
(0) the technology landscape is different : from social media to blogs to tweets to facebook to podcasts etc etc
(1) the electorate is different
(2) the opposition calibre is different
(3) the campaigning know-how is miles ahread of the 70s & 80s ruckus accusing Lee & Lee of corruption & bicycle thief & scissor sharpeners, the Harbans Singhs & Seow Kee Lengs .. the free this free that, scrap NS, close down defence etc etc
(4) lawsuits, parliamentary subcommitttee hearings, rise of NGOs and civic society - political consciousness has heightened & maturity grew

So in the 80s & 90s, Lee can in private talked about 'fixing' 'em by entirely aboveboard means, becos the opponents are found wanting in more ways than one.

He must have passed down the table talk to his son for as late as the 2006 election, PM Lee Hsien Loong made that Freudian Slip, '...if too many Opposition MPs in Parliament (criticising, sabotaging, destructive engagement I assume he is referring to..), then part of my valuable time meant for governing must be set aside to protect my rearguard.... i.e. I must waste time FIXING them '. Hilarious !
(*note* above is not verbatim but my take on words to the effect & meaning imputed)

From 2011 Elections onwards, the truly WATERSHED one, though this term has been usd ad nauseum for umpteen elections past.
From GE2011 onwards, PAP must fight fair & seen to be fighting fair....

4th Generation Leaders whoever they may be - (Kee Chiu & Heng , the 2 prominent instant Ministers(one acting only) are out of depth politically speaking, but everybody's gotta start somewhere) - must r-eignite the fire of ordinary citizens in the new millieu of globalization, red-dot Spore running out of 'Remaking' Options, tight cost structures but most importantly politically awakened (WIDE AWAKENED) electorate that will not stand for the likes of Operation Spectrum ever again.

We need :
sincere,
competent,
credible leaders
- from both the PAP & the Opposition -
who has the political acumen
to be great public communicators & connectors
to truly win
the hearts,
the minds
and the imagination of the people.

The people being?
We, the Citizens of Singapore !

 

[kingrant]

You and the PAP deserve each other. your understanding of democratic principles are zero.

One must know what is a good law and what is a bad law. I dont expect you to understand very much so as a faithful dog to yr masters, you follow every law, even tho some of them may be bad laws. Take f'nstance, the changed laws against assembly and procession. You dont find first world parliaments in advanced countries tinkering with laws to restrict freedom of assembly unless it is for criminal purposes. I expect you to take umbrage, but you not only dont do that, you condemn the very people who fought against them. So in yr acquiescence, you deserve the repressive govt of the day, but spare a thought for the people who desperately try to keep democracy alive here. An award is just a recognition, it doesnt pay rents, libel costs..if you cant give an award, the least you can do is show some decent appreciation.

What sacrifice? What reward? What democracy? My half past 6 England also know democracy mean do things most people want. He do things most people dont want. Like that mean his principle mean he win got democracy, he lose no democracy. WP win mean WP betray democracy. Dont break law dont defame people dont go jail dont bankrupt mean betray democracy. Break law, defame people, go jail and bankrupt mean sacrifice for democracy. LOL & KNN where got logic?

 

[HedgeTrader]

One must know what is a good law and what is a bad law. I dont expect you to understand very much so as a faithful dog to yr masters, you follow every law, even tho some of them may be bad laws. Take f'nstance, the changed laws against assembly and procession. You dont find first world parliaments in advanced countries tinkering with laws to restrict freedom of assembly unless it is for criminal purposes. I expect you to take umbrage, but you not only dont do that, you condemn the very people who fought against them. So in yr acquiescence, you deserve the repressive govt of the day, but spare a thought for the people who desperately try to keep democracy alive here. An award is just a recognition, it doesnt pay rents, libel costs..if you cant give an award, the least you can do is show some decent appreciation.

Who define whats good or bad law? The majority. Thats democracy. Go ahead and talk and bear arms to revolt. Cannot win by vote mean didnt win democracy support. I dont support PAP. I dont vote PAP. But I accept majority and democracy. You SDP people? Dont vote you mean no democracy. Worse than PAP!

 

[eatshitndie]

Wah now I seriously involved as Ramseth clone but nevermind lah, just forum LOL

FYI I was there since beginning 1998 YPAP forum. Ramseth was there using Vincent nick. He was kingpin there. But halfway change nick to Ramseth. He got make announcement change nick also. No need to guess. YPAP forum later kana moderate hard and we all ranroad to Delphi Sammyboy. Me also under another nick. Then Delphi Sammyboy closed for for awhile and I also fuck forget it. GE time I came back to read again, later register and post again. Believe or not is your biz LOL

You say I Ramseth then I Ramseth lor also no diff to me just passtime forumming only LOL

jabberwocky is our diehard ramseth clone hunter and detective. if you are not careful, you'll become a ram clone. (oops, too late.) btw, what was your handle during unmoderated ypap era?

 

[methink]

Who define whats good or bad law? The majority. Thats democracy. Go ahead and talk and bear arms to revolt. Cannot win by vote mean didnt win democracy support.

Wah piang eh... your definition of democracy is ZERO!

By your definition, Saddam Hussien and Col Gaddafi who changed the laws at every turn, are practising democrats.

Likewise our old man who won elections by any crooked means and changed the laws to suit his own interest, is a democrat huh? Mine you... LKY did not change the laws for the good of the ppl, but to protect his own interest... at his whims and fancies. This is good law and democracy?

No wonder ppl like you are blind and voted PAP. Same idiotic class as those clearAssies and stuffychutish dogs.

 

[kingrant]

Sure, by the majority of PAP MPs in a rubber stamp parliament. Using gerrymandeering and unfair electioneering mechanisms like GRCs which was broken only recently. Were you consulted?

Chee is a bad politician at winning elections but that didnt mean his principles were wrong or undeserving of the populace appreciation. He failed at tactics to win elections but his actions are certainly laudable. So not being able to win elections due to persecution is certainly not democracy. One can also win elections like LTK and WP but that didnt mean true democracy has arrived and tyranny has been beaten.

You deserve the chains you wear around your neck like millstones.

Who define whats good or bad law? The majority. Thats democracy. Go ahead and talk and bear arms to revolt. Cannot win by vote mean didnt win democracy support. I dont support PAP. I dont vote PAP. But I accept majority and democracy. You SDP people? Dont vote you mean no democracy. Worse than PAP!

 

[Annoyed]

As a fairly avid reader of Shakespeare, I shudder at the thought of Chee playing Hamlet.

You're entitled to your take as you put it that way. My take is that he's a condemned actor. If he was to play Hamlet, Shakespeare would be taken out of English literature syllabus.

Must be a uniquely Singaporean phenomenon whereby the tyranny of the majority is upheld by a bunch of people that was never even consulted to begin with.

Sure, by the majority of PAP MPs in a rubber stamp parliament. Using gerrymandeering and unfair electioneering mechanisms like GRCs which was broken only recently. Were you consulted?

 

[methink]

Must be a uniquely Singaporean phenomenon whereby the tyranny of the majority is upheld by a bunch of people that was never even consulted to begin with.

And this is democracy to many hedgeporks, clearAsses and stuffychutes!

Truly uniquely Singapore!

 

[Fook Seng]

[QUOTE="]•/3

Chee is a bad politician at winning elections but that didnt mean his principles were wrong or undeserving of the populace appreciation. [/QUOTE]

The problem people have with Chee was at the time when people were desperately looking for more opposition MPs in parliament, he failed miserably, so obsessed with his personal battle. And this carried on for years and years. Whatever he does might be for democracy but it is a democracy to satisfy his own desires not what the people want. People need greater representation in the right channels, where it matters. It is through greater representation in parliament that more and more able people will have the encourage to step forward and contest in the elections.

 

[kingrant]

That's exactly what I meant. One cannot always look for elections and electoral victories as markers. Chee is not a shrewd politician but definitely a democracy champion. No other can take down Old Man and his son and davinder in our courts and made them look so vulnerable and uninvincible. There was a T T Rajah from the past but he was a lawyer, whereas Chee was not one. Still say, kudos to the Chees. Not easy doing what they did.

The problem people have with Chee was at the time when people were desperately looking for more opposition MPs in parliament, he failed miserably, so obsessed with his personal battle. And this carried on for years and years. Whatever he does might be for democracy but it is a democracy to satisfy his own desires not what the people want. People need greater representation in the right channels, where it matters. It is through greater representation in parliament that more and more able people will have the encourage to step forward and contest in the elections.

 

[yellowarse]

Chee may be batty as a politician and a wall-banger with his head, but he sure had gumption and gall, and prepared for personal sacrifice. For that, I thought he deserved the award. he truly championed for democratic principles with his life.

Well put. The idealist is seldom the shrewdest of politicians.

 

[yellowarse]

Wrong. The court case only had supporters on both sides sticking to their causes more firmly. This is not how PAP won ground from Barisan on WP won ground from PAP, which made the difference - it is winning over people who traditionally voted the other side. This is staying the course at ground zero. The Lees are not dumb. If they could be discredited by the hearing, they would not have attended. The Chees by castigating the Lees in such a manner went down further from the time they hollered GCT.

You're entitled to your opinion. But most people who have read the transcripts would agree that Chee tore the Lees and Davinder apart in court. It was a magisterial (pardon the pun) performance that I think surpassed even Francis Seow's classic '86 exchange with old fart that left the latter red-faced and tongue-tied.

 

[yellowarse]

My take is:-

If you remember Dr Chee (let's give his full honorific) when he 1st come onto the Spore Political Scene before his dismissal/public 'Where's the money?' rant & civil disobedience & bankrupcy suits etc - important to note he was once free from his current public persona which attracted all the name-calling....

In 1992, when then new PM graciously allow a by-election in his own ward purported to show the last GE was called not to bypass JBJ, as well as to induct fresh RAdm Teo Chee Hean, Chiam proudly unveiled his Phd find: Dr Chee Soon Juan.

1. Dr Chee in his early press conferences, akin to Mourhino the Special One, proclaimed his academic pedigree & highlighting the fact that he has 'brains' no inferior to PAP candidates (true, a rarity given Opp candidates then, other than a few medical docs, few if any PhD I can recall)

2. He carried some angst even then - proud of the fact that he, a one-time NUS reject, is now a PhD lecturer in the very University that once reject him presumably on grades entry.

3. His ideas quite lucidly captured in his 1st book : Dare to Change. He put in effort. Compiling research to present in Parliamentary Hearings on medical costs only for the PAP to mock his 'typo' errors.

Like Scroobal, I believe Chee genuinely believe the Western view that Democracy is a universal good, forms/practices and all - cultural/political/societal considerations not withstanding. so, in the face of perceived injustice, out came the usual democracy fighters recipe book: hunger strike, sit-in, street protests, linked up with international democracy advocates (1-time running with Martin Lee from HK Democrats & Taiwan's DPP) etc etc.

PAP still under Old Man's Banyan Tree Shadow treat every opponent with overkill - but Chee provoked them further with his in-your-face confrontation as well as, face it, in terms of elocution & argument weaving, Dr Chee is a class above the PAP ministers even then.

The higher a profile Chee took, the more PAP wacked him - and sometimes, Chee overzealously supply his own hang rope. The Jurong East market bellowing : don't run! answer me! where's the money in stark contrast to the smiling mild Woody waving him off and not engaging Chee in anger - such contrast & Chee's image as a rabble-rouser is sealed in the public's mind forever.

I am sure along the way, the stress & injustice must have gotten to Chee. I remember attending a rally in JE stadium 2001GE, Chee brought his kiddie daughter to the rally and he & his forlorn family - really pitiful to watch. Still, he lost that GE.

The govt tracked him all the way : law suits, watching for foreign funds getting to him, preventing him to travel to network, painting him as megalomania etc etc.

Am sure around then, Chee decided OK, can't get elected - then let's do the next best thing : educate the people, show up the natural injustices. Hence all the silent protests by walking from point A to point B to Istana, wearing T-Shirts, challenging illegal assembly laws, holding talks indoor then police barged in with videocam but dunno how to charge him flouting what law - Home Team under WKS is a laughing stock.

Today, if I am Chee, I will remain an undischarged bankrupt ineligible to stand for elections - to be forever a visual reminder to the world of PAP's kiasu persecution of Organized Dissent. Damn it, in 1984, an voter displeasure by way of ballot box, LKY already deemed it as 'sophisticated' voters wanting to exert pressure on the govt !!!! Talk about being super-sensitive & paranoia kiasuism !

Interesting chronological analysis on the Chee saga from a psychological angle. But I think that like JBJ, CSJ would love to have his bankruptcy discharged and have another shot at parliament. JBJ had his two sons to help him; CSJ is likely still looking for a white knight.

Yes, he's been a champion for democracy, he's wrung certain concessions from the PAP gov't – Speakers' Corner among others – but I don't think he'd like to be remembered as a failed politician forever.