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An Ex-Christian's story
- Thread starter tuttifruiti
- Start date
Sorry all. Was busy with school and work. Here's part 2
Don't worry about my dad. He still believes in Christ, still does his prison fellowship and other 'pastoral' work (without a church).
Christians reading this must be thinking how come pastor so silly. Fired from church then don't believe in god, its a test from god, etc. He still does. i don't. Him being fired from church got me thinking. My cell group comforted me and tried to explain god's way. I wasnt satisfied. I look for my own answers and talk to like-minded friends.
Church is dirty. Its all about politics. They want to earn money. I'd rather put my money into charity. Churches money goes into buying big useless screen projectors, big cars for pastors (we have no car, my father takes bus to church), useless expensive music equipment. The better they market it, the more people they attract with their superb interior designs and paint jobs. Then they will start preaching on god, don't rob god etc. then go about collecting their tithes and offerings.
There are so much flaws with the bible itself. Preachers like to preach things that are easy to preach. But many things are left out of the bible. many questionable things about the bible. You can ask a christian so many questions about his faith but he will only answer those that he can. For example, i was reading in this folder that some one was asking why 6 days to create the earth? And someone's answer was it is a hebrew word for period or a length of time. Okay. Fair enough. Then they will answer the rest of their questions with Divine plan, god works in mysterious ways, etc. I used to believe that, but now i know they are all 'smoking' me.
Did you know that jesus christ might not have existed? Go research. The bible says that people came from all over galilee to hear him preach, and to let him cure their illnesses but yet there are no FIRST-HAND accounts of this. Such a massive crowd and no accounts of this? No writings on this? No artist or poets during their time wrote about this? This is just one theory. So many others. Christians say it is satan trying to fool us.
There's a documentary on youtube that suggest jesus might be a buddhist monk because so much of his teachings are similar to that of buddha and that the silkroad may be a place where merchants and scholars exchanged ideas and cook up this religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbUEZfJJaQ
Looking at the bible now as an atheist i began to see how absurd the bible is. Let me try to summarize the bible.
God creates man. Woman and man eats forbidden fruit cause god didnt want them to be smart. Punished FOREVER. (please note that this god is suppose to be omnipotent, the alpha and omega) Floods, diseases, plagues came onto those that didnt listen to him. Like some god throwing a tantrum. Here comes the new testament. Sent and tortured his son to die for us sinners who are sinners because our ancestors (adam and eve) ate the fruit. Hold on. You punish your own son for a mistake our ancestors did? Holding this grudge for so long? Sent jesus to show your love? You are god. So many other ways to do it and you come up with such immature acts? wow really?
As a teen(still christian) i always wondered what happens to other people of other faith. For example. A boy born into a muslim family is doomed for hell - In the eye of a christian. But this boy had no choice, born into a muslim family and his society is all pro-muslim, he is going to live and die as a muslim and our omnipotent god knows this. Another example. My grandma is a buddhist. she is the most loving and kind-hearted grandma ever. She is doomed for hell also for not believing in christ and doing charity work.
Sorry for long and messy story. so much to tell but cannot arrange the contents properly. i still got more to say but i think i am done for now. thanks for reading so far.
Don't worry about my dad. He still believes in Christ, still does his prison fellowship and other 'pastoral' work (without a church).
Christians reading this must be thinking how come pastor so silly. Fired from church then don't believe in god, its a test from god, etc. He still does. i don't. Him being fired from church got me thinking. My cell group comforted me and tried to explain god's way. I wasnt satisfied. I look for my own answers and talk to like-minded friends.
Church is dirty. Its all about politics. They want to earn money. I'd rather put my money into charity. Churches money goes into buying big useless screen projectors, big cars for pastors (we have no car, my father takes bus to church), useless expensive music equipment. The better they market it, the more people they attract with their superb interior designs and paint jobs. Then they will start preaching on god, don't rob god etc. then go about collecting their tithes and offerings.
There are so much flaws with the bible itself. Preachers like to preach things that are easy to preach. But many things are left out of the bible. many questionable things about the bible. You can ask a christian so many questions about his faith but he will only answer those that he can. For example, i was reading in this folder that some one was asking why 6 days to create the earth? And someone's answer was it is a hebrew word for period or a length of time. Okay. Fair enough. Then they will answer the rest of their questions with Divine plan, god works in mysterious ways, etc. I used to believe that, but now i know they are all 'smoking' me.
Did you know that jesus christ might not have existed? Go research. The bible says that people came from all over galilee to hear him preach, and to let him cure their illnesses but yet there are no FIRST-HAND accounts of this. Such a massive crowd and no accounts of this? No writings on this? No artist or poets during their time wrote about this? This is just one theory. So many others. Christians say it is satan trying to fool us.
There's a documentary on youtube that suggest jesus might be a buddhist monk because so much of his teachings are similar to that of buddha and that the silkroad may be a place where merchants and scholars exchanged ideas and cook up this religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbUEZfJJaQ
Looking at the bible now as an atheist i began to see how absurd the bible is. Let me try to summarize the bible.
God creates man. Woman and man eats forbidden fruit cause god didnt want them to be smart. Punished FOREVER. (please note that this god is suppose to be omnipotent, the alpha and omega) Floods, diseases, plagues came onto those that didnt listen to him. Like some god throwing a tantrum. Here comes the new testament. Sent and tortured his son to die for us sinners who are sinners because our ancestors (adam and eve) ate the fruit. Hold on. You punish your own son for a mistake our ancestors did? Holding this grudge for so long? Sent jesus to show your love? You are god. So many other ways to do it and you come up with such immature acts? wow really?
As a teen(still christian) i always wondered what happens to other people of other faith. For example. A boy born into a muslim family is doomed for hell - In the eye of a christian. But this boy had no choice, born into a muslim family and his society is all pro-muslim, he is going to live and die as a muslim and our omnipotent god knows this. Another example. My grandma is a buddhist. she is the most loving and kind-hearted grandma ever. She is doomed for hell also for not believing in christ and doing charity work.
Sorry for long and messy story. so much to tell but cannot arrange the contents properly. i still got more to say but i think i am done for now. thanks for reading so far.
Sorry...there are alot of theological errors in your 'Summary.'
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not to make them smart (or stupid). They ate simply they had chosen to believe in the Devil rather than their Creator. So, it was not so much about that 'eating'. It was their disobedience that brought in sin into the sin-free paradize that God has created for them. Can you imagine you are a Chinese soldier in China and instead of taking instructions from the Chinese general, you instead take all the instructions from the Americans. Do you seriously think that you can continue to be a member of the Chinese Armed Forces? Likewise, how could God allow both Adam and Eve to continue to be in the paradise when they had already rebelled against Him, and ignored God's commands? So, get it right....it was not what they eat; but it was their disobedience and had intentionally (though deceptively) went against the will of God.
It is not true....never, never be the case that only those who listen to God and obey His commandments will be free from disease, will be able to escape flood, and all kinds of plagues. In fact, the whole New Testament is written basically for Christians and from cover to cover, from the first Book, the Book of Matthew to the last Book, the Book of Revelation, Christians are warned that they are going to face calamities and tribulations. Remember, God is Respecter of nobody. Even though the Jews are His chosen people, we read, especially in the OT, the Jews had suffered more than many non-Jews. Reason: Just like Adam and Eve, they had disobeyed God and did what was right in their own eyes. So, get it right....calamities and plagues are part and parcel of this world and none can escape...believers or non-believers will have to face them.
Since sin was brought into this world, many people from all cultures are trying to atone their sins by offering animals as sacrifices and in some cultures they even offer human beings, especially young children to their gods. We read this even in the OT and this has continue till this day. These sacrifices cannot and have not been able to bring people back to their sense and in spite of all these practices, people are still as evil as it was in Noal's day. God has given human 4,000 years to prove themselves. We know the story....human can't and will never able to prove that we can be righteious no matter how hard we try to make earthly sacrifices to God. God therefore sent a Perfect Sacrifice, His only begotten Son, Jesus as the final sacrifice. So, get it right...God did not punish His Son for the mistakes of our foreparents made. He sent His Son Jesus because He did not want us to continue to live in the state of hopelessness; He did not want us to live our lives that are completely in direct opposition to Him. And the only Person can reverse this is by offering a Perfect Sacrifice. This is sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, is the highest form of love that God has shown to us. Jesus died on the cross not the correct the mistake of Adam and Eve but rather as the Perfect and Acceptable offerring so that we can be redeemed to be in His Kingdom.
Thankfully, after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God has protected the tree of life from being eaten by Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:22). This is one of the greatest mercies of God. Had God allowed both Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life (after they had disobeyed Him by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), they would been able to live forever. As their descendants, we too would be able to live forever. But....take no comfort on this. Who would want to live for ever under our present worldly state....diseases, plagues, etc. Can you imagine you are having sickness and will never able to recover and live in sickness forever! In this world, we know two things will come sooner or later: Sickness and Death. By the mercy of God, He allows death and had God allowed Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, we will be under an eternal curse of getting sick and to live in sickness forever! Can you imagine you are forever blind; forever deaf; forever walk with only one limp; forever living with no arms and no legs; forever sitting at a wheelchair!
Thankfully, through the death of Jesus on the cross, we are able to live forever but not in the present wordly state. Instead, we will be able to live forever and be free from all diseases and plagues. This summarises indeed what the Cross of Jesus is all about. It was not about God punishing His Son but this is the only way for us to live forever free from diseases and plagues without the need to eat from the tree of life because Jesus is the Tree of Life (John 11:25-26): I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
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Thanks for sharing your personal, heartfelt story. Truly refreshing. Not just another rubbish cut and paste job from you tube.
"Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not to make them smart (or stupid). They ate simply they had chosen to believe in the Devil rather than their Creator. So, it was not so much about that 'eating'. It was their disobedience that brought in sin into the sin-free paradize that God has created for them. Can you imagine you are a Chinese soldier in China and instead of taking instructions from the Chinese general, you instead take all the instructions from the Americans. Do you seriously think that you can continue to be a member of the Chinese Armed Forces? Likewise, how could God allow both Adam and Eve to continue to be in the paradise when they had already rebelled against Him, and ignored God's commands? So, get it right....it was not what they eat; but it was their disobedience and had intentionally (though deceptively) went against the will of God."
Sorry i don't know how to quote and unquote.
No wonder some people in the forum like to bash you. (i've been lurking around here for some time.)
Let me try to reason with you constructively - although i know it will go nowhere. All that you said makes so much sense to a christian. BUT not to an atheist with a logical and rationale brain that your god has blessed upon us to THINK with.
First of, the bible is flawed in so many ways, i will go to your level of thinking and try to make sense (if any)
1. About disobedience? Then why put it there in the first place? To tempt us with it? You,as a loving parent do you tempt your child with drugs? Its like a mother saying this to her child " Ah boy ahhh, mummy left some drugs in the cabinet, but you cannot go take ahhh. not good for your health. later get addicted." Would a mother do that? Then if poor little ah boy go take the drugs because mei mei tempt him, the mother will get angry and chase the boy and girl out of the house and then both of them will commit incest.
2. The chinese army analogy is exactly what christianity preaches and it is very apt that you chose it as an example. Christianity breeds the sense of elitism. Need me to explain further?
Matthew 15:21
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Here we see that jesus only saves the jews ( talk about a loving and merciful god). people argue that jesus was sent to save the jews so that the jews can bring about the salvation of man. Really? Our god selects people he wants to save? Then must give those unchosen ones a test of faith cause by right they don't deserve it? how loving is your lord.
If i was a chinese soldier and instead of taking instructions from my mentality insane general - i chose to follow a foreigner who makes sense and clears my doubts and dont behave like a little boy throwing tantrums and feeding me lies, i would chose the foreigner. i may be executed by the firing squad for treason, but death is a choice i rather take then to follow a mad general, i will look for my own answers with rationale thinking. Look no further at a real-live example - north korea. enough said.
I would like to debate with the rest of your wisdom but it is rather painful to have a rush of thoughts of rebuttal in my head and my slow fingers can only type so fast.
Silly as it seems, i would like to meet you in person over a cup of coffee and hear you preach. i am open to christian-talk, i still can be swayed if you reason well (which doubt it).
PS: Please dont use the bible to defend yourself. Please. We all know that is created by men to control men, there are doctrines that were left out or carelessly compile by men who had the great need to come to a general consensus to rule the weak and the poor then. Now we all smart, know maths, science, geography, history. What you could use are sources of historical value that make sense. The bible written by your god through men got so much flaws that the book you like to quote from has the same historical value and valid references that The Three Little Pigs had - zero. Find some for me to prove yourself. That is always the flaw of your arguments - the bible. In a nutshell, use LOGIC to defend your faith not some interpretation you come up with.
You really never answered my questions - we should meet really. i stay around the east side.
Thank you for your time.
Sorry i don't know how to quote and unquote.
No wonder some people in the forum like to bash you. (i've been lurking around here for some time.)
Let me try to reason with you constructively - although i know it will go nowhere. All that you said makes so much sense to a christian. BUT not to an atheist with a logical and rationale brain that your god has blessed upon us to THINK with.
First of, the bible is flawed in so many ways, i will go to your level of thinking and try to make sense (if any)
1. About disobedience? Then why put it there in the first place? To tempt us with it? You,as a loving parent do you tempt your child with drugs? Its like a mother saying this to her child " Ah boy ahhh, mummy left some drugs in the cabinet, but you cannot go take ahhh. not good for your health. later get addicted." Would a mother do that? Then if poor little ah boy go take the drugs because mei mei tempt him, the mother will get angry and chase the boy and girl out of the house and then both of them will commit incest.
2. The chinese army analogy is exactly what christianity preaches and it is very apt that you chose it as an example. Christianity breeds the sense of elitism. Need me to explain further?
Matthew 15:21
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Here we see that jesus only saves the jews ( talk about a loving and merciful god). people argue that jesus was sent to save the jews so that the jews can bring about the salvation of man. Really? Our god selects people he wants to save? Then must give those unchosen ones a test of faith cause by right they don't deserve it? how loving is your lord.
If i was a chinese soldier and instead of taking instructions from my mentality insane general - i chose to follow a foreigner who makes sense and clears my doubts and dont behave like a little boy throwing tantrums and feeding me lies, i would chose the foreigner. i may be executed by the firing squad for treason, but death is a choice i rather take then to follow a mad general, i will look for my own answers with rationale thinking. Look no further at a real-live example - north korea. enough said.
I would like to debate with the rest of your wisdom but it is rather painful to have a rush of thoughts of rebuttal in my head and my slow fingers can only type so fast.
Silly as it seems, i would like to meet you in person over a cup of coffee and hear you preach. i am open to christian-talk, i still can be swayed if you reason well (which doubt it).
PS: Please dont use the bible to defend yourself. Please. We all know that is created by men to control men, there are doctrines that were left out or carelessly compile by men who had the great need to come to a general consensus to rule the weak and the poor then. Now we all smart, know maths, science, geography, history. What you could use are sources of historical value that make sense. The bible written by your god through men got so much flaws that the book you like to quote from has the same historical value and valid references that The Three Little Pigs had - zero. Find some for me to prove yourself. That is always the flaw of your arguments - the bible. In a nutshell, use LOGIC to defend your faith not some interpretation you come up with.
You really never answered my questions - we should meet really. i stay around the east side.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for taking time to read.
It is not true....never, never be the case that only those who listen to God and obey His commandments will be free from disease, will be able to escape flood, and all kinds of plagues. In fact, the whole New Testament is written basically for Christians and from cover to cover, from the first Book, the Book of Matthew to the last Book, the Book of Revelation, Christians are warned that they are going to face calamities and tribulations. Remember, God is Respecter of nobody. Even though the Jews are His chosen people, we read, especially in the OT, the Jews had suffered more than many non-Jews. Reason: Just like Adam and Eve, they had disobeyed God and did what was right in their own eyes. So, get it right....calamities and plagues are part and parcel of this world and none can escape...believers or non-believers will have to face them.
Wah. really very messy for my small brain. i break it down so i can understand.
First and foremost. This is your pastor/own interpretation, i am very sure you never been to the afterlife and see for yourself or actually talked to this god of yours. you are just parroting your pastor or you are mental. really really trying not to insult you here but lets go to your level and try to make sense.
here we go:
1.It is not true....never, never be the case that only those who listen to God and obey His commandments will be free from disease, will be able to escape flood, and all kinds of plagues
Okay. Very very immature thinking.I knew christian church go-ers who believe in this christ and still are plagued with diseases, christians lying in bed with cancer, christians dying in floods or natural disaster. Nope? Work of satan, must be lah. Everything blame him even when it is god that allows it. Nope? god works in mysterious ways? Nope? we are part of a divine plan. Okay so, we are created only to get destroyed by this loving god. he knows about this flood when he created earth and still goes on to create people to die from the floods. like to look from above and say to himself, haha! i shall bring this man into the world and make sure he ends up in Japan when the tsunami hits when he turns 16. quite sadistic ya?
2.In fact, the whole New Testament is written basically for Christians and from cover to cover, from the first Book, the Book of Matthew to the last Book, the Book of Revelation, Christians are warned that they are going to face calamities and tribulations.
Nope. Please dont do this. NT is written by men to control the weak. Zero historical value. lets not go there again. i dont need to cite sources here do i? quite a well known fact. Everyone knows we going to have troubles in life, nothing is smooth sailing - don't really need a book or god to tell us that do we?
3. Remember, God is Respecter of nobody. Even though the Jews are His chosen people, we read, especially in the OT, the Jews had suffered more than many non-Jews. Reason: Just like Adam and Eve, they had disobeyed God and did what was right in their own eyes. So, get it right....calamities and plagues are part and parcel of this world and none can escape...believers or non-believers will have to face them.
So many names for this god to empower the weak. God of the poor, god of the unloved, god of the powerless ( i anyhow crap it out) this are all to rally the weak and people in times of turmoil. to make them feel so useless they need to turn to a god of mercy a god of forgiveness, defender of the poor, blah blah. Here we go again: why the separation of jews and non-jews? racist god, its either you are a jew or non-jew. WHY? ain't we all one human race? why must jews this jews that? why? divine plan? must be. Part and parcel of this world and none can escape. sounds familiar. any cult leader can do this. "oh behold, there will be floods and plagues will come(duh) and soon our god Tuttifruti will come down and save us all. Have hope! Anyone can preach this but only fools will be taken in that it is god's work. The rest of us? Well, we studied geography and know that something called meteorology exists. Its the study of weather. look it up - clearly you were absent for geography class in school.
Do i really have to go on?
Wah. really very messy for my small brain. i break it down so i can understand.
First and foremost. This is your pastor/own interpretation, i am very sure you never been to the afterlife and see for yourself or actually talked to this god of yours. you are just parroting your pastor or you are mental. really really trying not to insult you here but lets go to your level and try to make sense.
here we go:
1.It is not true....never, never be the case that only those who listen to God and obey His commandments will be free from disease, will be able to escape flood, and all kinds of plagues
Okay. Very very immature thinking.I knew christian church go-ers who believe in this christ and still are plagued with diseases, christians lying in bed with cancer, christians dying in floods or natural disaster. Nope? Work of satan, must be lah. Everything blame him even when it is god that allows it. Nope? god works in mysterious ways? Nope? we are part of a divine plan. Okay so, we are created only to get destroyed by this loving god. he knows about this flood when he created earth and still goes on to create people to die from the floods. like to look from above and say to himself, haha! i shall bring this man into the world and make sure he ends up in Japan when the tsunami hits when he turns 16. quite sadistic ya?
2.In fact, the whole New Testament is written basically for Christians and from cover to cover, from the first Book, the Book of Matthew to the last Book, the Book of Revelation, Christians are warned that they are going to face calamities and tribulations.
Nope. Please dont do this. NT is written by men to control the weak. Zero historical value. lets not go there again. i dont need to cite sources here do i? quite a well known fact. Everyone knows we going to have troubles in life, nothing is smooth sailing - don't really need a book or god to tell us that do we?
3. Remember, God is Respecter of nobody. Even though the Jews are His chosen people, we read, especially in the OT, the Jews had suffered more than many non-Jews. Reason: Just like Adam and Eve, they had disobeyed God and did what was right in their own eyes. So, get it right....calamities and plagues are part and parcel of this world and none can escape...believers or non-believers will have to face them.
So many names for this god to empower the weak. God of the poor, god of the unloved, god of the powerless ( i anyhow crap it out) this are all to rally the weak and people in times of turmoil. to make them feel so useless they need to turn to a god of mercy a god of forgiveness, defender of the poor, blah blah. Here we go again: why the separation of jews and non-jews? racist god, its either you are a jew or non-jew. WHY? ain't we all one human race? why must jews this jews that? why? divine plan? must be. Part and parcel of this world and none can escape. sounds familiar. any cult leader can do this. "oh behold, there will be floods and plagues will come(duh) and soon our god Tuttifruti will come down and save us all. Have hope! Anyone can preach this but only fools will be taken in that it is god's work. The rest of us? Well, we studied geography and know that something called meteorology exists. Its the study of weather. look it up - clearly you were absent for geography class in school.
Do i really have to go on?
the church cannot fire a man of word. it is the organisation behind a church that fire your dad. just to make clear.
how to recover lost post ah. i wrote something rather lengthy to counter psalm's points but like never appear.
You knew of the Christian church....blah...blah...blah....
As born-again Christian for over 30 years who have gone through 'thick and thing of life' so to speak, let me said this, especially my fellow Christian brothers and sisters:: When facing calamities or under-going tribulation, never, never, never put the blames on Satans. Reason: By so doing, you are giving glory to the Evil One. We must note that the Holy Scripture is very clear on this: In this world we will have tribulations...this is the word from God (John 16:33): These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Tribulations and sufferings are part of this sinful world and all (and all means all) of our sufferings are all because of our sins. The world is completed corrupted with the sins but we are told to be "Of good cheer" because Jesus has overcome them. So, hear this now, again: Do not blame Satan for all those bad things. If you are told of this, just reject it.
Nope. Please dont do this. NT is written by men to control the weak. Zero historical value.
The Gospels are written for sinners, the hopeless, and oh yes, for the weak and the meek. The Gospels bring light to this dark and depraved world And, yes, we are going to continue to spread the His gospels because our hope is in His word, nothing else matter.
Whether you like it or not, everytime you dated a document, be it a simple letter, an office memo, a cheque, whatever, you are proclaiming the historicity of Jesus, regardless of your religiurous faith. The date of the document bears such proclamation. As you can see, this message is written on June 7, 2012, In the Year of Our Lord Jesus! The calendar reference of A.D. (or In the Year of Our Lord Jesus) is the only internationally acceptable calender reference. Yes, there are other calendar year reference but they are only used exclusively within the community or religious group.
It was the birth year of Jesus that turned the histories of the world into two periods: Before Christ and After Christ. Every ancient discoveries by it an ancient document, an ancient ruins, etc, they are dated with B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ). Please use your commonsense, if Jesus was just a factitious figure, why did His birth year has such a strong chronological importance to the world? There were many great historical figures born before the birth of Jesus, e.g. Buddha, Aristotle, and many hundred (or thousands of them) but why their birth years had never been so significant compared to the birth year of Jesus Christ. Answer is simple: Regardless of your faith, each time you dated a document which is a physcial evidence of what you write and what you said, you have to invoke the Name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. How could a factitious be so significance? Is the whole word so immature that they must us the birth year of Jesus Christ as the calendar reference year? Answer is simple: By this calendar reference date, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, you are proclaiming His authority and you are acknowledging the true fact that Jesus is a historical Person and not a facititious one.
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Your comparison of the parents, the drugs, etc....and the story in Genesis 1 about the fall of man is simply a big joke.
(a) Eve was not attempted by another sister, Eve was tempted by the Devil.
(b) God did not chase them out of the paradize when they first ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They themselves hid away from God behind the tree.
(c) Adam and Eve were not brother and sister. They were husband and wife.
Your second part on the case of the army is nothing but just putting words into other's mouth. This is what we would expect from people like you, and you have the cheek to invite me to meet you. In my original writing, I have never said that the Chinese general was insane...but you added this. In the second place, you are assuming all foreigners are completely not insane. Third, we are talking about military, even though as what you said, the Chinese general could be insane, but the least the soldier do is not to obey him, but why take orders from enemies? I think you are just insane yourself!
By the way, I have met up with many non-Christians especially in my early days. I was very anxious to 'debate' with them. And you are not the only one here now have suggested we debate face to face, I feel so humbled by the invitation....really! How could someone who writes with 'insane-messages' (by your implication) and yet be invited to the debate. I think it takes a 'bigger insane' to invite another insane. So, really no apology need to be made......your invitation is declined because i don't debate with the Big Insane.
And my experience is that, the word of God doesn't need to be debated. The word is sharper than two-edged sword...and in some way, I have regretted to the debates I had with some of my friends. It's just a waste of time because once your heart is hardened towards God, no amount of debate can convict and loosen it up. Only through the Spirit of God that we can come before Him. Debate can never do it.
Frankly, what I have written here are not for those whose hearts are hardened towards God like the Drifti, Fruiti, the Doggie, the Fishy, the Rojak Scientist. What I am sharing here are mainly for our own Christian brothers and sisters, and for those whose hearts are still not hardened towards God.
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If that pastor worth the salt, he could easily be accepted into another church.
Like in may dismissible cases we heard, often is one-sided....did the pastor preach something outside the Bible? Or did the church preach something outside the Bible and the pastor was not happy......did the pastor was being paid too high and the church couldn't pay him more than the church could afford, and etc....? in either case, we don't know exactly the story.
I strongly believe that the appointment of pastor is a divine calling.....but sadly, many churches treated this like another other professional career job...and if that is the case....certainly the worldly rules of employment apply: Hiring, Promotion, Firing/Dismissible.
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A born again christian of 30 years and you talk like a 6 year-old. doesnt make sense to me. Notice that you are rebutting those you think is easy to rebuke. you still have not answered the bulk and crux of my questions.
Let’s begin – the ex-christian vs the christian
But firstly -on your christian nature. You sound like the typical christian hypocrites that you can find in every church.
You like to use bible quotes and feel mighty proud of it? I came to this forums to share and you call me insane? You decline my sincere invitations? Lets see what your bible got to say about people like you.
<b>James 4:12 - There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? </b> (for judging me)
<b>Romans 14:1 - As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. </b> ...(for declining invitations)
<b>Mark 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. </b> (you are to preach the gospel to non-believers, instead of judging me and declining my invitation, you are throwing me aside, is this what jesus would do? For all you know you could have talked sense into me and make me walk the path of jesus but instead you made me pissed like every other person with your illogical and condescending tone)
Lets move on shall we? To talk about your selective rebuttal.
I really think its satan’s work according to your bible. Remember the book of job?
Job 1:6
<b>1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. </b>
Here, we can interpret that satan has to ASK god for permission to tempt man. And it is this god that allows for it? So how can it not be satan’s work? In fact it is both satan and god’s work. Satan has to suggest to officer in command and officer in command to approve.
The calendar part made me laugh. Some Buddhist countries still follow the Buddhist calendar so it makes Buddha real? Off my head I can only think of is Thailand. But there are more. Hahahahahaha. Are you like 6 years old? This is probably what I also would write if I was that age too. So you are forgiven.
Lets touch on the adam and eve part.
A) Read my anecdote properly. Mei mei told ah boy = eve told adam. God allowed temptation – look above for the book of job verse.
b) God chased them out of the garden eventually. <b>Gen 3:23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. </b>
c) I see them as brothers and sisters. Cause we are the children and son and daughters of god. This is how I interpret it. But I am pretty sure your interpretation is correct too, cause your pastor talked to god and told you so. Okay so I give it to you. What happens to cain and abel then? How they find other wives if they were the only humans then? Lets do maths. Adam + eve + cain + abel = 4. funny. Logical thinking doesn’t work here. How did they reproduce? 3 males one female all related by blood. Hmm. ( pretty sure you will skip this question too)
On my father’s defense:
<b>Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. </b>
Apparently, my father, Hitler, chairman mao were all given authority by jesus. This god really works in mysterious way.
You must find it quite hard to argue with me. I know bible verses too. Not proud to admit I was a pastor’s son. I feel I know too much about the bible. While you know too little and act all knowledgeable spewing bible verses. Be afraid, the bible is full of contradictions and varies ways of interpreting it. Why? Cause its man-made. That’s it. Give me more challenge please please.
Let’s begin – the ex-christian vs the christian
But firstly -on your christian nature. You sound like the typical christian hypocrites that you can find in every church.
You like to use bible quotes and feel mighty proud of it? I came to this forums to share and you call me insane? You decline my sincere invitations? Lets see what your bible got to say about people like you.
<b>James 4:12 - There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? </b> (for judging me)
<b>Romans 14:1 - As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. </b> ...(for declining invitations)
<b>Mark 16:15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. </b> (you are to preach the gospel to non-believers, instead of judging me and declining my invitation, you are throwing me aside, is this what jesus would do? For all you know you could have talked sense into me and make me walk the path of jesus but instead you made me pissed like every other person with your illogical and condescending tone)
Lets move on shall we? To talk about your selective rebuttal.
I really think its satan’s work according to your bible. Remember the book of job?
Job 1:6
<b>1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. </b>
Here, we can interpret that satan has to ASK god for permission to tempt man. And it is this god that allows for it? So how can it not be satan’s work? In fact it is both satan and god’s work. Satan has to suggest to officer in command and officer in command to approve.
The calendar part made me laugh. Some Buddhist countries still follow the Buddhist calendar so it makes Buddha real? Off my head I can only think of is Thailand. But there are more. Hahahahahaha. Are you like 6 years old? This is probably what I also would write if I was that age too. So you are forgiven.
Lets touch on the adam and eve part.
A) Read my anecdote properly. Mei mei told ah boy = eve told adam. God allowed temptation – look above for the book of job verse.
b) God chased them out of the garden eventually. <b>Gen 3:23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. </b>
c) I see them as brothers and sisters. Cause we are the children and son and daughters of god. This is how I interpret it. But I am pretty sure your interpretation is correct too, cause your pastor talked to god and told you so. Okay so I give it to you. What happens to cain and abel then? How they find other wives if they were the only humans then? Lets do maths. Adam + eve + cain + abel = 4. funny. Logical thinking doesn’t work here. How did they reproduce? 3 males one female all related by blood. Hmm. ( pretty sure you will skip this question too)
On my father’s defense:
<b>Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. </b>
Apparently, my father, Hitler, chairman mao were all given authority by jesus. This god really works in mysterious way.
You must find it quite hard to argue with me. I know bible verses too. Not proud to admit I was a pastor’s son. I feel I know too much about the bible. While you know too little and act all knowledgeable spewing bible verses. Be afraid, the bible is full of contradictions and varies ways of interpreting it. Why? Cause its man-made. That’s it. Give me more challenge please please.
Tutti I hear you and do agree. But not all of the bible is man made. There are solid teachings of Hesus in there if I may say so.
My feel is that if you do want GOD to guide you just ask sincerely.
Try this bit before you do. Ask GOD to protect you from the evil of Satan. Then ask " God of the universe , please guide me"
Simple prayer and I believe you will never be wronged.
Peace be with you
My feel is that if you do want GOD to guide you just ask sincerely.
Try this bit before you do. Ask GOD to protect you from the evil of Satan. Then ask " God of the universe , please guide me"
Simple prayer and I believe you will never be wronged.
Peace be with you
I don't think there is a need for me to answer you anymore....reason is simple: You keep introducing verses after verses and ignoring what I had discredited you earlier. How could we debate with people like you.
You example of the mother-daughter-Ah Boy story and trying to relate to the story of Adam and Eve is simply a big joke.
Not only we find it quite hard to argue with you...,.we find it impossible, and Satan knew the Bible too.
May be you should try harder to argue with your pastor dad....which I understood he was sacked from the church...and I am not surprised....if he couldn't convince his son about the biblical truth of the Jesus, how could he convince others. The church might be wrong in sacking him because of this....anyway, we don't know the whole story...but we (or rather I) have no intention to know more....my advice...don't wash dirty linen in the public...for whatever reason your dad was sacked, it should be between him and his church.
Any we don't argue words concerning the Bible. We are told to share with the world and to encourage the word of God with fellow Christians. No where in the Bible has told us to argue. So, yes....not just quite hard, it's impossible to argue with you....may be your dad find that too.
Though you are not proud to admit your father is a pastor, but I wonder your father is proud to admit you are his son who is so good in quoting Bible verses and challenging Christians.
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Tutti thanks for sharing your story. Although i do not believe, i respect those who belief 
Hello.
firstly, i wrote so much and thats all you can say? Here we go, you sitting on your throne of judgement again. judging people before even knowing them. its people like you that get to go to heaven, disgusting. pretty normal la. christians love to judge people. very ugly. maybe thats why my dad and i dont go to church anymore. i still debate with my dad and i have more productive debates with him then with you all high and mighty sitting on the right hand of god judging people. very clever. i still have christians friends and we still hang out, i like them but its idiots like you giving christians a bad name. oh, and please answer my questions? Where did i go wrong about the adam and eve part? what else is flawed? Besides judging my father of course. try to stick to the question.
thank you
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