Here is why Japan advanced in 1800-1945 whereas China become poor nation

Asterix · May 23, 2015

Sideswipe said:
............ Mao Zedong told Vladimirov that it was not honorable to sell opium but the CCP had no choice but to do that. they used the highly profitable opium’s revenues to purchase weapons from the KMT and then they used those weapons to destroy the KMT.

As Machiavelli puts it, when evaluating the actions of a Prince, one judges by the result.

The CCP did not have wealthy Dutch benefactors. The Soviets fought and were recovering from a costly war with the Germans and obviously Stalin or any other Soviet leader for that matter, would not want a powerful and unified neighbour to its south. If KMT generals were not corrupt, their weapons would not be available for sale to the enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj1cgBI5rdI

Sideswipe · May 23, 2015

Asterix said:
As Machiavelli puts it, when evaluating the actions of a Prince, one judges by the result.

The CCP did not have wealthy Dutch benefactors. The Soviets fought and were recovering from a costly war with the Germans and obviously Stalin or any other Soviet leader for that matter, would not want a powerful and unified neighbour to its south. If KMT generals were not corrupt, their weapons would not be available for sale to the enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj1cgBI5rdI

for the sake of evaluating history, the result is secondary, the truth is more important. to my understanding. the CCP has not admitted that they grew and sold opium during ww2 to this present day. whether or not the CCP had a just cause for that then depends on interpretations.

did you realize the irony of Mao Zedong's words to Peter Vladimirov ? the CCP purchased weapons to fight the KMT government of China, not the Japanese invaders. it's one of many slips of tongue by Mao to Vladimirov during the ww2 period.

Asterix · May 23, 2015

Sideswipe said:
......... the CCP purchased weapons to fight the KMT government of China, not the Japanese invaders. it's one of many slips of tongue by Mao to Vladimirov during the ww2 period.

Old Chiang wanted to finish off the Commies first before turning his full attention to fight the Japanese. Had to be "persuaded" by the Young Marshall. Both sides were equally guilty of strategising in order to place themselves in a better position for a post WW2 confrontation. The Commies probably could not forget nor forgive the treachery that Chiang did to their comrades in Shanghai and you know what - they shoudn't! That event is known as the Shanghai massacre of 1927. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary and prudent to reserve adequate firepower to finish off the internal enemy when the external enemy is gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre

Sideswipe · May 23, 2015

Asterix said:
Old Chiang wanted to finish off the Commies first before turning his full attention to fight the Japanese. Had to be "persuaded" by the Young Marshall. Both sides are equally guilty of strategising in order to place themselves in a better position for a post WW2 confrontation. The Commies probably could not forget nor forgive the treachery that Chiang did to their comrades in Shanghai and you know what - they shoudn't! That event is known as the Shanghai massacre of 1927. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary and prudent to reserve some firepower to finish off the internal enemy when the external enemy is gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre

Chiang Kai Shek had a just cause to purge the Communists from the KMT then. the Communists were in cahoots with the left-wing faction of the KMT led by Wang Jingwei, and they were seriously threatening to split the KMT from within.

it is very regrettable that the CCP preserved and used all resources and firepower against their number 1 enemy, the KMT during the anti-Japanese war. the CCP evaded the Japanese invaders for 8 long years and rarely fought a decent battle. shame on them !

tanwahtiu · May 23, 2015

you got the points here. Opium trade become more important commodities at China doorstep then to sell Brit industrial revolution products like the boiling water machines for ships and rail road machines to Chinese and the Asia region.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ZGYTi8AWAloP4Ag&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1200&bih=541

China were trapped and hard to eliminate opium trade at their doorstep when the Brit need huge amount of easy drug money to finance their ever demand for new inventions one after another in their Britain soil homeland. This was about the British Empire expansion and they have this

Britain rule the waves, really?, or
Britain rule the opium trade, sounded more appropriate.

Sideswipe said:
according to historian Xin Haonian who verified the Chinese Communist Party's opium story from Taiwanese sources and Peter Vladimirov who spent 4 years in Yan’an as the Soviet official highest representative to CCP during ww2. the Eight Route Army’s 359th Brigade and He Long’s 120th Divison were actively involved in the growth and sale of vast amounts of opium then. according to Peter Vladimirov, they sold the opium everywhere in China: CCP, KMT and Japanese territories. Mao Zedong told Vladimirov that it was not honorable to sell opium but the CCP had no choice but to do that. they used the highly profitable opium’s revenues to purchase weapons from the KMT and then they used those weapons to destroy the KMT.

Asterix · May 23, 2015

Sideswipe said:
Chiang Kai Shek had a just cause to purge the Communists from the KMT then. the Communists were in cahoots with the left-wing faction of the KMT led by Wang Jingwei, and they were seriously threatening to split the KMT from within.

"In the year after April 1927, over 300,000 people died across China in anti-Communist suppression campaigns executed by KMT."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre

There can be no just cause for the massacre of such a huge number of your comrades nor for the use of gangsters to do the evil deed.

The KMT deserved to lose China.

Sideswipe said:
it is very regrettable that the CCP preserved and used all resources and firepower against their number 1 enemy, the KMT during the anti-Japanese war. the CCP evaded the Japanese invaders for 8 long years and rarely fought a decent battle. shame on them !

The Red Army were guerillas and engaged in unconventional warfare with the Japanese. At that stage, they do not have tanks and heavy artillery. Why should they abandon their tried and tested methods and risk suffering huge losses using unfamiliar tactics against well armed enemies? Just because Chiang unwillingly agreed to a fake alliance against the Japanese?

Sideswipe · May 23, 2015

Asterix said:
"In the year after April 1927, over 300,000 people died across China in anti-Communist suppression campaigns executed by KMT."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_massacre

There can be no just cause for the massacre of such a huge number of your comrades nor for the use of gangsters to do the evil deed.

The KMT deserved to lose China.

The Red Army were guerillas and engaged in unconventional warfare with the Japanese. At that stage, they do not have tanks and heavy artillery. Why should they abandon their tried and tested methods and risk suffering huge losses using unfamiliar tactics against well armed enemies? Just because Chiang unwillingly agreed to a fake alliance against the Japanese?

if only the 300,000 people died, and China was saved from the evil Communism, then it would be all worth it in the end.

the CCP's guerrillas warfare were all fairy tales stories to deceive the gullible Chinese people. in this day, China television stations produced unrealistic and ridiculous anti-Japanese war dramas to portray Communist forces bravely fighting against the Japanese invaders, to continue the deception of the Chinese public.

according to General Albert Wedemeyer, the USA Chief of Staff to Chiang Kai Shek during ww2. in Wedemeyer's own words. he dropped his men behind the Japanese lines, they had observers teams there. their reports can't confirm that the Communists were accomplishing a great deal militarily in the Yan'an region. Historians had dug through Mao Zedong's selected works thoroughly and discovered that 90% of his cables to Communists forces were related to contending against the KMT, 10% related to the Japanese.

the CCP should simply admit that they did nothing of significance in the anti-Japanese war then on this year, the 70th anniversary of ww2 end.

sleaguepunter · May 23, 2015

Sideswipe said:
if only the 300,000 people died, and China was saved from the evil Communism, then it would be all worth it in the end.

the CCP's guerrillas warfare were all fairy tales stories to deceive the gullible Chinese people. in this day, China television stations produced unrealistic and ridiculous anti-Japanese war dramas to portray Communist forces bravely fighting against the Japanese invaders, to continue the deception of the Chinese public.

i dont disagree with your view but chiang really screw up his chance to claim hegemony of china due to his burden of corrupted subordinates. the term 得民心者得天下 really prove to be truth in the civil war between the kmt and the ccp. both side know japanese menaces only temporary. while ccp were brain washing the peasants, kmt were still repressing the peasants. It a strategic error for kmt to lose the north as in history, only one out of all dynasties was won by attacking from the south. the rest all from the north.

Asterix · May 23, 2015

By the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War, the balance of power in China's civil war had shifted in favour of the Communists. Their main force grew to 1.2 million troops, with a militia of 2 million. Their "Liberated Zone" contained 19 base areas, including 1/4 of the country's territory and 1/3 of its population; this included many important towns and cities. Moreover, the Soviet Union turned over all of their captured Japanese weapons and a substantial amount of their own supplies to the Communists, who received Northeastern China from the Soviets as well.[49]

In March 1946, despite repeated requests from Chiang, the Soviet Red Army under the command of Marshal Malinovsky continued to delay pulling out of Manchuria while he secretly told the CPC forces to move in behind them, because Stalin wanted Mao to have firm control of at least the northern part of Manchuria before the complete withdrawal of the Soviets, which led to full-scale war for the control of the Northeast. These favourable conditions also facilitated many changes inside the Communist leaders: the more hard-line and firmer force finally gained the upper hand and defeated the opportunists.[49][50] Prior to giving control to Communist leaders, on March 27, Soviet diplomat requested joint venture of industrial development with the Nationalist Party in Manchuria.[51]

Although General Marshall stated that he knew of no evidence that the CPC were being supplied by the Soviet Union, the CPC were able to capture a large number of weapons abandoned by the Japanese, including some tanks but it was not until large numbers of well trained KMT troops surrendered and joined the communist forces that the CPC were finally able to master the hardware.[52][53] But despite the disadvantage in military hardware, the CPC's ultimate trump card was its land reform policy. The CPC continued to make the irresistible promise in the countryside to the massive number of landless and starving Chinese peasants that by fighting for the CPC they would be able to take farmland from their landlords.[54]

This strategy enabled the CPC to access an almost unlimited supply of manpower to use in combat as well as provide logistic support, despite suffering heavy casualties throughout many civil war campaigns. For example, during the Huaihai Campaign alone the CPC were able to mobilize 5,430,000 peasants to fight against the KMT forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

Sideswipe · May 23, 2015

sleaguepunter said:
i dont disagree with your view but chiang really screw up his chance to claim hegemony of china due to his burden of corrupted subordinates. the term 得民心者得天下 really prove to be truth in the civil war between the kmt and the ccp. both side know japanese menaces only temporary. while ccp were brain washing the peasants, kmt were still repressing the peasants. It a strategic error for kmt to lose the north as in history, only one out of all dynasties was won by attacking from the south. the rest all from the north.

both the KMT and the CCP repressed the peasants. that's the truth. but we have to consider the circumstances in that period of history. in those days, the Armies of China lived off the land of the peasants where they were stationed, with little to no funding from the central government of the day. the Armies were of course unwelcome leeching visitors of the lands to the peasants. the Armies had to repress the peasants to various degrees in order to subsist themselves there. it was a very regrettable and unavoidable thing. even Chiang Kai Shek's closest general Tang Enbo had to source for his own funding of his troops locally in those hard and difficult times.

during the civil war 1945-1949, the KMT made many disastrous military decisions due to the high-ranking Communist spies inside the Nanking military department. the CCP's military effectiveness and success which they attributed to the peasants' support were greatly exaggerated. the CCP won because of those spies, it's as simple as that.

tanwahtiu · May 23, 2015

a poor nation, and infested with opium smokers, the internal rife and civil problems can only do much in today war machines which need money to fight.

CCP and KMT can only do little but it was good to see internal fighting that China don't have to pay that 60 million pound sterling to the 8 nations.

Sideswipe · May 23, 2015

Asterix said:
By the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War, the balance of power in China's civil war had shifted in favour of the Communists. Their main force grew to 1.2 million troops, with a militia of 2 million. Their "Liberated Zone" contained 19 base areas, including 1/4 of the country's territory and 1/3 of its population; this included many important towns and cities. Moreover, the Soviet Union turned over all of their captured Japanese weapons and a substantial amount of their own supplies to the Communists, who received Northeastern China from the Soviets as well.[49]

In March 1946, despite repeated requests from Chiang, the Soviet Red Army under the command of Marshal Malinovsky continued to delay pulling out of Manchuria while he secretly told the CPC forces to move in behind them, because Stalin wanted Mao to have firm control of at least the northern part of Manchuria before the complete withdrawal of the Soviets, which led to full-scale war for the control of the Northeast. These favourable conditions also facilitated many changes inside the Communist leaders: the more hard-line and firmer force finally gained the upper hand and defeated the opportunists.[49][50] Prior to giving control to Communist leaders, on March 27, Soviet diplomat requested joint venture of industrial development with the Nationalist Party in Manchuria.[51]

Although General Marshall stated that he knew of no evidence that the CPC were being supplied by the Soviet Union, the CPC were able to capture a large number of weapons abandoned by the Japanese, including some tanks but it was not until large numbers of well trained KMT troops surrendered and joined the communist forces that the CPC were finally able to master the hardware.[52][53] But despite the disadvantage in military hardware, the CPC's ultimate trump card was its land reform policy. The CPC continued to make the irresistible promise in the countryside to the massive number of landless and starving Chinese peasants that by fighting for the CPC they would be able to take farmland from their landlords.[54]

This strategy enabled the CPC to access an almost unlimited supply of manpower to use in combat as well as provide logistic support, despite suffering heavy casualties throughout many civil war campaigns. For example, during the Huaihai Campaign alone the CPC were able to mobilize 5,430,000 peasants to fight against the KMT forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

Their main force grew to 1.2 million troops, with a militia of 2 million.

that is the bullshit of all CCP bullshit then. in truth, the Communists had 300-500K regular troops and an unspecified number of irregular troops at the end of ww2. it is not difficult to prove that.

George Marshall was a big asshole who caused the fall of China to the Communists.

For example, during the Huaihai Campaign alone the CPC were able to mobilize 5,430,000 peasants to fight against the KMT forces.

the 5 million peasants figures are so ridiculous. the CCP won Huaihai Campaign because of this KMT traitor Guo Rugui who leaked military information to the CCP. the KMT called Guo the biggest traitor of the KMT in the civil war.

Asterix · May 24, 2015

Sideswipe said:
Their main force grew to 1.2 million troops, with a militia of 2 million.

that is the bullshit of all CCP bullshit then. in truth, the Communists had 300-500K regular troops and an unspecified number of irregular troops at the end of ww2. it is not difficult to prove that.

If the Commies indeed had, at that stage in the civil war, less men than they claimed, isn't their achievement of ultimately defeating the KMT greater?

Sideswipe said:
For example, during the Huaihai Campaign alone the CPC were able to mobilize 5,430,000 peasants to fight against the KMT forces.

the 5 million peasants figures are so ridiculous. the CCP won Huaihai Campaign because of this KMT traitor Guo Rugui who leaked military information to the CCP. the KMT called Guo the biggest traitor of the KMT in the civil war.

Toward the end of the Civil War, [Lieutenant General] Du [Yuming] correctly guessed that Major General Guo Rugui (郭汝瑰), one of Chiang's most trusted staff officers, was a Communist agent. Unfortunately, the only evidence he was able to present was that Guo, unlike most Nationalist cadres and officers, was clean. Chiang did not consider this a good reason to suspect Guo and became enraged when Du presented his view because Chiang believed it implied that all of the Nationalists were corrupt, and that only the Communists were clean. Du's wife had also been a Communist herself.

Du was captured during the Huaihai Campaign and held in prison until his pardon in 1959, after which he was rewarded with a high-ranking position in the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. The Communist leadership may have promoted Du to this role in order to convince his son-in-law Yang Zhenning, a Nobel laureate in physics, to return to China. Guo Rugui, who was in fact a Communist spy after all, was also placed in the same political organization as Du, and the two became friends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Yuming

Asterix · May 24, 2015

Sideswipe said:
............. this KMT traitor Guo Rugui who leaked military information to the CCP. the KMT called Guo the biggest traitor of the KMT in the civil war.

The KMT considered him a traitor, to the Commies he is a hero. As far as I am concerned, as long as he did it for what he believed to be for the good of his country (as opposed to mere political parties), and not for material or other rewards, he is a hero. You think so easy to be lone spy deep in the heart of the enemy's headquarters arh? Every day could be your last day on earth!

The KMT never used spies? Both Mao and Chiang, being traditional Cina Ah Peks, would have read and applied Sun Tzu's Art of War. Obviously one of them was better at the game.

Sun Tzu on the Use of Spies (Chapter 13 of the Art of War):

"Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, is the height of inhumanity.

One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory.

Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation.

Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes .................. "

tanwahtiu · May 24, 2015

a financially bankrupt China can only use traitors to defeat among themselves, Chinese generals fight against own generals 三国演义 story repeating over again when the country is bankrupt.

Asterix said:
If the Commies indeed had, at that stage in the civil war, less men than they claimed, isn't their achievement of ultimately defeating the KMT greater?

Du was captured during the Huaihai Campaign and held in prison until his pardon in 1959, after which he was rewarded with a high-ranking position in the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. The Communist leadership may have promoted Du to this role in order to convince his son-in-law Yang Zhenning, a Nobel laureate in physics, to return to China. Guo Rugui, who was in fact a Communist spy after all, was also placed in the same political organization as Du, and the two became friends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Yuming

Sideswipe · May 24, 2015

Asterix said:
If the Commies indeed had, at that stage in the civil war, less men than they claimed, isn't their achievement of ultimately defeating the KMT greater?

without the Soviet Russians’ help, the CCP had no chance in hell to win the civil war. some people might argue that the KMT had the Americans on their side. there was a key difference.

the KMT’s collaboration with the USA were above board and highly publicized. the KMT even boasted of the USA’s aid to China in the press conferences and the papers. the Chinese public knew that the Americans were aiding the KMT to rebuild the country and to fight the Communists then. the CCP’s collaboration with the Soviets were shrouded in complete secrecy. the CCP claimed that they received no Soviet aid at all and the Soviets claimed that they don’t interfere in Chinese internal affairs. it was all lies to deceive the Chinese people, and the Americans. the Chinese public didn’t know the CCP shady dealings with the Soviets then.

according to Kim II Sung memoir. he sent 300,000 North Korean soldiers to join the CCP army as mercenaries from 1945-1948. the Outer Mongolian mercenaries also joined the CCP army. It is said there were Soviet military advisers on the lines giving advices to the Communist forces and the Soviet military advisers planned and directed the decisive Liaoshen and Huaihai campaigns.

the Soviet’s massive military aid and the North Korean 300K soldiers proved that it was clearly not the free will of the Chinese people that determined that the CCP defeated the KMT in the civil war. from VJ-day to early 1948, the USA imposed an Arms embargo on the KMT government of China. Great Britain and rest of Europe followed suit. it was practically a worldwide Arms embargo against the ROC.

was the CCP’s victory really that remarkable ? or was there an international conspiracy to doom China to communism ? the story of the Chinese civil war was not as simple as it seemed.

Sideswipe · May 24, 2015

Asterix said:
The KMT considered him a traitor, to the Commies he is a hero. As far as I am concerned, as long as he did it for what he believed to be for the good of his country (as opposed to mere political parties), and not for material or other rewards, he is a hero. You think so easy to be lone spy deep in the heart of the enemy's headquarters arh? Every day could be your last day on earth!

The KMT never used spies? Both Mao and Chiang, being traditional Cina Ah Peks, would have read and applied Sun Tzu's Art of War. Obviously one of them was better at the game.

this Guo Ruogui was just a stupid fool who was deceived by the Communists, and he was a big big hypocrite. I tell you why if you are interested.

the idea is never that the CCP cheated the victory by using the spies. it is all about showing respect to the truth of history and debunking the lies of the past. the spies played an ultimately decisive role in the CCP’s military victory, and that was the truth of the Chinese civil war then. whether or not the spies’ contributions made the CCP’s victory much less glorious or enjoyable, that depends on interpretations.

sleaguepunter · May 24, 2015

U giving Kim memoirs too much credible. His memoir list that to justify the million strong Chinese people volunteer force. Machiam like the Chinese are repaying the Koreans for the efforts in the 辽宁战役。

sleaguepunter · May 24, 2015

There never honor in war. The end justifies the means. History are always written by the victors. What worse now is who control the media can rewrite history. Ccp can BS all they want as 90% of the population don't have a shit about what really happened during the Chinese civil war just like here believe lky took over a fishing village.

Sideswipe · May 24, 2015

sleaguepunter said:
U giving Kim memoirs too much credible. His memoir list that to justify the million strong Chinese people volunteer force. Machiam like the Chinese are repaying the Koreans for the efforts in the 辽宁战役。

Fatty Kim's grandfather definitely sent large numbers of his troops to the CCP army then. maybe he exaggerated the figures. according to Chen Cheng and Fu Zuoyi, there were 100-150K North Korean mercenaries in the CCP army then. in addition. the North Korean Arsenals were available for free pick-up for the CCP. the Soviet Russians' military aid mostly went through North Korea first before it landed into the hands of the CCP. North Korea played the transporter role for CCP then. it is said the North Korean soldiers fought for the CCP during the Liaoshen campaign.

North Korea did help the CCP quite a lot in the war then. to think of it. it was right from Mao Zedong's perspective that he sent 1 million troops to aid North Korea in the Korean war. Mao should repay that big debt owned to Kim II Sung.

Here is why Japan advanced in 1800-1945 whereas China become poor nation

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