#OccupyCentral thread: Give me Liberty or Give me Death!

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Hong Kong is not a sovereign country. Never was, never will.

Taiwan is a not a sovereign country. It is a renegade province of China.

If Hong Kong wants to be a sovereign country, then it has to overcome the political stalemate of Taiwan and China, which both claim to be the sovereign country of all Chinese.

Hence, even if Hong Kong frees itself from China, it has to free itself from Taiwan, which claims to be the rightful ruler of China.

This is not a subject of willow tree bending with the wind or some rigidity of China.

Any part of China that chooses to break away and be independent is considered a rebellion, not a protest.

Even Taiwan dare not mention the word "independent" to China, for it knows the consequences, both politically and economically.

Hong Kong is a sovereign part of China. If not, why the British did not hand back Hong Kong to Taiwan but to China?

Unlike Crimea, the people of Hong Kong did not hold a referendum, even if illegal in the eyes of China. Crimea held one and 90 over percent of the population of Crimea voted to join with Russia and split with Ukraine. Russia did no wrong, because that is the wish of the population of Crimea.

I suggest to hold a referendum in Hong Kong and let everyone decides.

The fact remains a small population of Hongkies just want to be independent of anyone and be a sovereign country. This ain't going to happen, because without China, Hong Kong is nothing.

There is no way China will allow Hong Kong to defend itself with a treaty with Japan and USA to protect itself militarily. But without military capabilities, Hong Kong cannot protect its own territory. No country can be sovereign if it has no military capability to protect itself.

Henceforth, Hong Kong would be better off being part of China, for the alternative is suicide. While the Cantonese is one of the bravest and most entrepreneurial of the dialects of China, it is still Chinese and all Chinese will be treated similarly in the eyes of other races, no matter whether you're from Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, Macau or Hong Kong.

The only way to bring down the Chinese and destroy the race is infighting like this. It's a laughing stock of the world, because when it comes to the end, it's a battle of the races and so far, the Chinese are winning. Has been winning for the last 5,000 years except for the last 200 years, it was brought down on its knees because of infighting and opium addiction.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Yoda say

shallow understanding.... a shallow man comes from.

Re: this mofo wants to be responsible for students lives?

Leongsam said:

Shanmugam is an astute politician and is comment are a reflection of his in depth of understanding of the geopolitical realities of the region.

Click to expand...

George Yeo was so much better.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

but Taiwan was the true original sovereign republic of China.....u must remember China was never a "nation" or a single entity,it was a series of dynasties and emperors split up into different kingdoms with different parts warring against each other for 5000 years......it was Sun Yat sen who established the first modern entity of China as a country,a sovereignty.did Taiwan claim it was the sovereignty of all chinese?no it was merely the establishment of the first independant,democratic "China".

Sinkie said:

Hong Kong is not a sovereign country. Never was, never will.

Click to expand...

Re: HK should hold Referendum on its future


LIVE: Hong Kong government says it will meet with student leaders if blockades are removed

PUBLISHED : Sunday, 05 October, 2014, 8:26am
UPDATED : Sunday, 05 October, 2014, 6:43pm

Staff Reporters

In a statement, the government called for main roads in Admiralty to be re-opened and requested that a bridge connecting the government offices to surrounding streets be cleared to allow civil servants access to the buildings.

6.25pm: Executive Councillor Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee said she believed the government and police would be willing to investigate the police's handling of clashes during the Occupy protests, as demanded by the Federation of Students.

"For the sake of the government and police's credibility, I believe they will handle the matter in a fair manner," Ip, a former security minister, said in a TVB interview.

Regarding the violence in Mong Kok on Friday, she said the area, notorious for triad activities, was not a suitable place for a sit-in. "Why did Occupy Central have to occupy Mong Kok? There are all sorts of people making a living there and the protests had already been affecting them for one week," she said.

6.15pm: In a dramatic twist, Occupy Central announced on its Twitter page that the Mong Kok protesters would be leaving to join the "occupation" in Admiralty. Protesters in Admiralty also decided to withdraw from Lung Wo Road, adjacent to Tim Wa Avenue (in front of CY Leung's office) to clear traffic.

True to their call for democracy, the Lung Wo decision was arrived at, of course, through a vote. They aren't giving up their blockade around the government headquarters, including the footbridge over Harcourt Road.

6pm: Former chief secretary Henry Tang Ying-yen joins the chorus of voices from the government urging protesters to leave the streets and come to the negotiating table. Here is an English translation of his statement:

1. I call on students and other protesters to withdraw immediately to ensure their personal safety.
2. The best solution to problems is dialogue, not stand-off. I believe the government has heard everybody's appeal, and for the next step, we should establish communication in a rational and pragmatic manner, and prevent unnecessary clashes from happening again.
3. The series of clashes and chaos have impacted the society, people's livelihood and the economy to some degree. All stakeholders should keep calm and let the society return to normal operation first.
4. Political reform is a gradual process, one step at a time. All reforms should be based on the Basic Law and decisions by the National People's Congress Standing Committee. I wish everybody could negotiate the future development of Hong Kong's political reform with attitudes of rationality, pragmatism and compromise. Only this way could we all have a chance to take a step forward on political reform, instead of being trapped where we were.

5.51pm: He's coming down! The bridge man has finally decided to leave his precarious perch on top of an Admiralty bridge after almost an hour speaking to three negotiators. There's applause from people below as he clambers to safety, after dropping his megaphone on the air mattress below.

He had been standing on the bridge for five hours, demanding an audience with student activists and live coverage from foreign networks.

As he was escorted away by police, the man insisted he only wanted his children to go back to school. He also denied that he was paid by anyone to pull that stunt. "I am only a father of three," he told the press. "I'm neither for nor against [Occupy] ... all I want is that my children can go to school and learn what is true democracy."

5.37pm: Earlier this afternoon, elderly men carrying blue ribbons started shouting "say no to democracy" at the crowds near the Sogo shopping mall in Causeway Bay. The group accused the protesters of being paid to fight for democracy.

"You don't know how lucky you are in Hong Kong," said a man through a speakerphone: "All you have today, it's because of the central government." Then they played the national anthem, prompting a few mainland tourists to sing along.

5.15pm: The Hong Kong police also said that 10 people - nine men and one woman aged between 26 and 67 - were arrested in the Mong Kok protest camp yesterday. They were held on suspicion of fighting in a public place, assault, indecent assault and unlawful assembly. Some of them have triad backgrounds. One of those arrested was a man over 50 who assaulted a journalist.

Another 20 people arrested have been released on bail.

Ten journalists and 21 police officers in Mong Kok reported being injured. “There have been violence on both sides [supporters and opponents of Occupy]. Do not provoke police and cause further chaos,” police spokesman Steve Hui said, adding they would not rule out more arrests.

A group of 'blue-ribbon' protesters storm the Causeway Bay site, chanting anti-democracy slogans. Photo: Silvio Carillo

5.10pm: Police are tight-lipped on what their plans are regarding the Occupy protests tonight, following the government's insistence that traffic, classes and work should go back to normal tomorrow.

Asked point-blank if they intended to use tear gas or rubber bullets to possibly clear protest zones, Steve Hui Chun-tak, chief superintendent of the police public relations branch, said in today's press conference: “The commanders at the scene will take actions based on the actual situation on the ground. We have a strict manual on the use of force.”
“We will keep monitoring the developments. It is important that we make correct assessments,” he added.

Hui also warned against attempts to breach police cordons: “Police will not tolerate or spare any violent acts. Robust and firm actions will be taken against such acts."
Hui urged protesters to evacuate from all protest zones and remove barriers as soon as possible.

4.50pm: Despite recurring confrontations in Mong Kok today, the protest has overall remained peaceful. But SCMP reporters have noticed familiar faces returning to the site even after police escorted them away.

One persistent detractor in Mong Kok, who identifies himself as a police supporter, was seen chanting slogans outside the police headquarters in Wan Chai a few days ago. And in August, he was among those who cheered when a man slapped pro-independence activist Chiu Hin-chung outside the Eastern Court.

4.36pm: Members of the Executive Council, a body of advisers to the chief executive, have condemned the violence in protest areas and urged students to leave the streets. A statement published on the government's website today said:

The Non-official Members of the Executive Council have condemned the violent acts occurring in protest areas, saying they do not tolerate violence and appeal to all parties to exercise restraint. Members said they support the police's impartial enforcement in maintaining public order.

They called on all Occupy Central participants and protesters to leave the scene to allow the blocked roads and affected public transport services to resume [to] normal, so citizens and students can get back to work and school tomorrow. They also appealed to protesters not to block access to the Central Government Offices to let civil servants return to work and continue serving the public.

Members urged the Federation of Students to enter into dialogue with the Government on constitutional reform.

Protesters' response amid pockets of violence: "Desire for true democracy won't be defeated by police, mob collusion and paid thugs". Photo: Stuart Lau

4.15pm: An executive of the world's largest jewellery chain, Chow Tai Fook, triggered an online backlash when she mocked victims of violence and sexual assault in the democracy protests.

Public relations deputy chief Joanna Kot, in Facebook posts, scoffed at those who had been beaten or molested by anti-Occupy crowds. “Assaulted? It’s late by a few days already! You all saw it! If there’s a problem, you [protesters] want the police, if there’s no problem you say they are bad guys. If you’re all that, then leave by yourself."

In another post regarding a female student protester who had been indecently attacked, she wrote: “Molested? Remember not to report to the police; revolution requires sacrifice, fighting for democracy is above the law. Those anti-Occupiers are 'peacefully' molesting you. You should be understanding! LOL!”

Chow Tai Fook confirmed that Kot was an employee but said her posts did not represent the views of the company. Around 20 of the chain’s stores, which are immensely popular with mainland tourist shoppers, have ceased operating due to the pro-democracy protests. Online commenters have called for Kot’s dismissal, with some urging a boycott of the brand until she is removed.

3.55pm: A woman negotiator and four firemen have reached the bridge man. The firemen put up a ladder for him, but he refused it. He was more amenable, however, to taking sips of water given to him by the negotiator.

Following the bridge man's request for a meeting, student union leaders Alex Chow Yong-kang and Joshua Wong Chi-fun are waiting below for officers to persuade the man to climb down.

"We are advised to stay away from the ground in front of him at the moment, and to wait until negotiators have convinced him to come down before we can have an open dialogue," Chow said.

3.33pm: Bridge man has launched a verbal attack on a foreign journalist he saw laughing below, yelling out obscenities and telling onlookers he was going to jump off the bridge away from the airbag inflated by emergency services.

Someone sent a drone into the air to capture aerial footage, but police and firemen leapt in and forced the pilot to land it.

3.15pm: All is still tense on the streets of Mong Kok this afternoon, as these pictures show:

2.52pm: The total number of injured people sent to public hospitals resulting from Occupy protests since last Sunday has climbed up to 165, according to the Hospital Authority. Nine people remained in hospital at 2pm today, all in a stable condition, a government spokeswoman told the South China Morning Post.

2.30pm: Alex Chow has arrived at the scene and is looking up at bridge man.

Alex Chow (right) arrives on the scene and looks up at the man on the bridge. Photo: Samuel Chan

2.14pm: Hong Kong Federation of Students has responded to a government statement which said it was ready to open a dialogue with protest leaders if roads were re-opened and a route to the government offices was cleared to allow civil servants to get to work.

The Federation of Students accused the government of being "misleading". saying that protesters had no intention of barring civil servants from government HQ.

"The way leading to the central government office complex has all along remained open. The 3,000 civil servants can enter the building. It is possible for the Administration Wing to appeal to workers to return to their place of work. Please, the government, stop being misleading," the students' body said.

"Whether blocked roads are re-opened should not be part of the preparation for bilateral dialogue," it added.

Reiterating its own set of demands, Scholarism said talks would only go ahead if police "carefully handle" people on the streets, both for and against the Occupy protests.

2.05pm: Bridge manhas demanded he be granted an audience with Scholarism's Joshua Wong and the Federation of Students' Alex Chow by 3pm, or he says he will "do something". A woman on the roof of the bridge has passed the man some water.

"I want uncut footage out on live TV," says the man, who says his surname is Yip.

'In one hour I'll do something,' says man on Admiralty bridge. Photo: May Tse

1.55pm: Bridge man is now sitting down, making a speech through a megaphone. He's been up there for more than half an hour.

1.50pm: The man on the bridge has told people below that he has three children, aged eight, 11 and 14, and they need to get to school. He has been sitting with his feet dangling over the side, and pacing up and down atop the bridge's concrete arch support. A fall onto the road below will mean severe injuries at the very least.

"I won't go until CNN or the BBC is live here," he says.

A woman has shouted up accusing him of taking money to stage a "show". The man shouted back a denial that he had been paid.

An anti-Occupy protester has scaled a bridge in Admiralty and is demanding to speak to student protest leaders. Photo: Samuel Chan

1.35pm: An anti-Occupy protester has scaled a bridge in Admiralty and is demanding to speak to student leaders.

"Alex Chow, tell us when we can have our roads back!" he has demanded, addressing those below through a megaphone.
"I want to talk to Alex Chow and Joshua Wong.
"I've already brought a loudspeaker with me; it's not bought with grandpa's [Beijing's] money."

Six fire engines have arrived by now. Rescuers have inflated a giant cushion underneath the bridge.

1.15pm The government has announced in a statement that it is ready to open a dialogue on consitutional reform with the Federation of Students, but has laid out two conditions which it “hoped the Federation of Students and other bodies concerned would co-operate on”.

The first condition is that protesters stop blocking the pedestrian bridge connecting government headquarters and the roads surrounding the chief executive's office, so government operations can resume and civil servants can get to work; the second is that the main roads in Admiralty are cleared in order for traffic to resume. The government hopes this will allow schools in Central, Wan Chai and Western districts to reopen tomorrow.

The Federation of Students earlier said it was willing to meet with certain government representatives, although the group ruled out face-to-face meetings with Chief Executive CY Leung, who, they believe, should resign.

Are we inching towards dialogue at last? Or will the demands and counter-demands of each side keep things at a stalemate?

12.50pm: Exceutive Council convenor Lam Woon-kwong says Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying's televised speech last night should not be described as an "ultimatum". Leung last night said there was a "pressing" need for civil servants to be allowed back to work tomorrow and for protesters to clear the area outside the Tamar headquarters. He warned of the potential for "serious consequences for public safety and social order" if the protest went on.

Speaking to the media, Lam again appeals for protesters to disperse peacefully. "We need to take care of the interests and lives of the seven million people in the city as well."

Elsewhere former Chief Justice Andrew Li Kwok-nang has joined a chorus of calls for students to disperse from the Occupy scenes at once, "otherwise there is a danger to their safety".

In a statement issued through Mingpao newspaper's website, Li said: "The young represent our future. Through their peaceful demonstrations in recent days, the students' ideals and aspirations for democracy have been fully understood and are respected.

"The demonstrations have caused disruption to the life of the community. In the interests of the community, which the students must also understand and respect, it is now time for them to leave the protest venue.

"No one would like to see the students getting hurt. I sincerely urge the students to leave immediately. Otherwise there is a danger to their safety."

The scene in Admiralty this morning, after last night's rally drew thousands. Photo: Dickson Lee

12.30pm: Another wave of anti-Occupy demonstrators have challenged the crowd in Mong Kok.

One man clad in a black T-shirt hurled abuse at protesters. "Why is water canon not used if they say tear gas is too violent?" he asked police.

Another group of people attempted to tell protesters how badly their businesses were being were hit. "I only made HK$80 yesterday and I have a kid to raise," one man, who
refused to give his name, said. He said he owned a shop on Reclamation Street and paid a rent of $80,000 a month.

Anti-Occupy demonstrators make their feelings known in Mong Kok once again. Photo: SCMP

In another episode an Occupy Central supporter lost her temper during a heated discussion with an anti-Occupy demonstrator.

"I want to kill this dog," she yelled, before being subdued by lawmaker Albert Chan Wai-yip. Chan said: "As we have come to this critical time, we need to stay as calm as ever."

Meanwhile two trucks said to be carrying water have been allowed to leave the government buildings via Tim Wa Avenue.

In Admiralty volunteer Cheng Mung-oi, who has spent the last week separating rubbish to facilitate recycling, said protesters should be concerned about the environment, as well as social justice.

"This is also about what kind of a world we want to leave for our next generation," said Cheng, a nurse.

11.39am: Financial Secretary John Tsang Chun-wah admitted today the government had "no experience and psychological preparation" in face of the "unprecedented" Occupy campaign.

Writing his weekly blog post, Tsang, the number three Hong Kong official, said he "did not sleep well" and worried about "more serious matters" in the course of the civil disobedience protests.

"The high speed of development over the past week was completely out of everybody's expectation," said Tsang. "It's hard not to be concerned that more serious chaos could happen.

"Undeniably, the transformation of the mass movement this time is unprecedented. The government, political parties, community groups, the media and the public have no experience and psychological preparation to face this situation, making it all the more difficult to resolve."

He said it was difficult to predict which direction events would take, adding that the confrontation between pro- and anti-Occupy groups in Mong Kok had "further deepened our worry".

"This event is a grave test for all Hong Kong people. Its handling shall require everyone's wisdom and patience," he said.

Tsang will leave Hong Kong this afternoon for a US visit, which will include a meeting with Federal Reserve chairwoman Janet Yellen. He said he had hesitated when making a decision on whether to go to the States, but had decided upon the visit so as to explain Hong Kong's situation directly.

11.20am: A number of Occupy protesters tell reporters on the ground that they fear the government is preparing to move in and evict them, following a pledge from CY Leung last night that government and schools would reopen on Monday. Here's what people are saying:

Anthony Cheong, 29, hotel manager, protesting in Causeway Bay: "There are many police today. Nothing similar has happened in the last few days. I believe they are going to do something. Honestly, we are afraid."

Shelley Chang, 21, student, protesting in Causeway Bay: "It's a strategy. There were many people in Mong Kok and Admiralty, so I thought I should help here. If they try to clear over there, people can come here and continue occupying the streets."

Oscar Ng Wai-ching, 23, said: "I fear the police will attack or do something tonight or the next day - I think will be more dangerous."

Mr Lee, 57, history teacher: “I think CY will clear protest sites today. All I can tell my students is to be careful. I know that even if I asked my students to leave, they wouldn’t."

Minor skirmishes continue in Mong Kok, where Occupy protesters are periodically yelled at by people opposing the ongoing protest. Photo: Chris Lau

11am: It's McOccupy! McDonald's on Leighton Road in Causeway Bay appears to be doing its bit to ensure the dental hygiene of protesters spending the night on the streets. The fast food chain is giving away a free tube of toothpaste to customers who buy certain meals.

"Get a refreshing 'good morning' gift when you choose any of these tasty Extra Value Breakfast Meals", a sign at the counter reads, offering a free Lion brand tube of toothpaste, valued at HK$8.

Although no mention is made explicitly of the protests, a number of McDonald's branches have done a roaring trade over the past week, selling out of many food items and catering for demonstrators' bathroom needs.

10.52am: A row has broken out between a group of protesters and their detractors outside Hang Seng Bank on Nathan Road. Police officers have quickly moved between the opposing sides to avoid the situation escalating out of control.

"For the sake of peace, let's stop shouting at each other," one policeman pleaded, winning a round of applause from the crowd.

10.40am: Occupy protesters and their supporters have covered a wall outside government headquarters with thousands of sticky messages. Dubbed, the 'Lennon Wall', messages include:

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it truly deserves it".
"Citizens' Awakening".
"Maybe we are the dimmest light, but when we gather together, we are the brightest sun!"
"I want my HK back!"
"HK is our home! If we don't stand up, who? If we don't stand up now, when?"

Thousands of sticky notes bearing messages cover a wall in Admiralty. Photo: Dickson Lee

10.15am: In the last couple of days an increasing number of Hongkongers have spoken out against the Occupy movement, with many citing dented business interests or disrupted lives as reasons.

western media biased against CHN. K.Sham.

Why doesn't he move to CHN since he likes CHN so much. See if the locals will be biased against him as Ah Neh in CHN.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

singapore is not a sovereign country either, with one million occupation force of PRCs and traitors in the govt collaborating with them.

Re: western media biased against CHN. K.Sham.

Because smelly ah nehs like him likes to have his ass hole rip apart by them.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Sinkie said:

I suggest to hold a referendum in Hong Kong and let everyone decides.

Click to expand...

1) This protest is NOT about independence. It's about universal suffrage as promised in the Basic Law.

2) A civil referendum was held by organisers of the Occupy Central movement NOT to gauge whether voters wanted independence or otherwise BUT whether they wanted the Chief Executive to be elected by civil nomination (e.g. 10% of eligible voters want you as a candidate and you're entitled to run for election). Eight hundred thousand decided they wanted civil nomination and not a nominating committee controlled by Beijing. The organisers did NOT expect so many to vote. A denial-of-service attack on the website used to hold this civil referendum, CCP was suspected to be the culprit behind such attack, angered many and cause them to vote when otherwise they might not have bothered.

3) China has several so-called "autonomous" regions and/or cities, but they are not truly autonomous. What the Hongkies are seeking is autonomy in the election of their Chief Executive. True and complete autonomy from China is not possible but undue interference is also intolerable. Sinkies on the other hand, will tolerate anything so long as they are regularly bribed at election time, including but not limited to the constant raising of their See Pee Elf minimum sum until the saying that See Pee Elf is your money ceases to be true.

Re: HK should hold Referendum on its future

Famous HKU Medical Professor Criticises Police for Indiscriminate Use of Tear Gas

港大名醫潘冬平籲勿再向下一代放催淚彈

Chinese article on Apple Daily is here: http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/realtime/news/20141005/52980878

English text below is from Professor Ronnie Poon's Facebook page. This guy is a surgeon, like Woffles Wu

This is also posted here to prevent PAP and/or Sinkie Polis from telling similar LIES and Sinkies from being IGNORANT:

Protect our next generation, please....

I finished an emergency operation till 1 am yesterday morning. I was very tired but I could not sleep for the whole night after watching news showing police transporting rubber bullets into the Chief Executive Office in preparation for possible crackdown on the young protesters. The scene refreshed my memory of an emergency operation for a young man with massive bleeding from injured spleen from a plastic bullet injury at Kings Cross when I was a surgical resident in St. Vincent's Hospital of Sydney in early 1990s. He was lucky to survive only because the Hospital was just next to Kings Cross.

Like many people in Hong Kong, I was very shocked by the use of tear gas by the police towards the student protesters who appeared to be so peaceful, and I was particularly disturbed by the claim of police that tear gas was totally harmless except for its temporary irritation effects. A retired senior police officer told the reporters that it was just like a war game, and it would be ok. to fire 870 instead of just 87 canisters of tear gas. An Assistant Commissioner of Police told the press that tear gas was just equivalent to pepper spray except for its coverage of a larger area. Some people around me also feel the same, and Yip Lau commented that use of tear gas was no big deal because experts said tear gas was totally harmless. I don't know who the experts are that she was referring to. I would not be surprised by the laymen's impression, but I am VERY SURPRISED that police force who are in possession of potentially lethal or harmful weapons seem to have no knowledge of the possible harms of these weapons. A quick search of Pubmed or Google will tell you that there have been lethal cases due to tear gas, and even a layman with some common sense will be able to tell that there are two major differences between tear gas and pepper spray. First, tear gas is release after explosion of tear gas shells, which if occurs close to a person can lead to explosive injury. A review of 18 cases of severe vascular injury caused by tear gas shells showed that most required surgery for repair, and three patients ended up in limb amputation (Wani et al, Iran Journal of Medical Science 2011). Second, tear gas can be inspired deep into the lung while pepper spray only has a superficial effect. Tear gas has been reported to induce acute pulmonary effects causing severe hypoxia necessitating ICU care (Thomas et al. Military Medicine 2002). In sensitive patients, it could also induce laryngospasm or bronchospasm, which is particularly dangerous in people with asthma or those who require general anesthesia for concomitant injury (Davey et al. Anesthesia 2004). A study of 93 cases with repeated exposures to tear gas showed risk of long-term complications like chronic bronchitis or reduced lung function (Arbak et al. World Scientific Journal 2014). A recent literature review has concluded that tear gas and pepper spray used for crowd control are not without risks, particularly for people with pre-existing respiratory conditions, and some people are at risk of delayed complications that can be severe enough to warrant admission to hospital and even ventilation support (Carron et al. British Medical Juornal 2009). Typical manufacturer warnings on tear gas cartridges state "Danger: Do not fire directly at person(s). Severe injury or death may result." Even if the police office has not been taught on the potential harm of tear gas, they should at least learn from this warning label and try to avoid firing it directly at the people, but it seemed not the case from what I saw in the TV.

It gives me an even deeper worry for the safety of the student protesters on the thought of possible use of rubber bullets by police, not only from my own experience of treating a potentially lethal case but from the abundant reports of eye or facial injury, fractures, vascular injury, abdominal penetrating or blunt injury, and nerve injury from rubber bullets that could cause death or long-term disability. A report of 152 cases of severe rubber bullet injuries in a riot control of Arabs by police recorded three deaths from the injuries (Mahajna et al. Lancet 2002) . Another report of 42 cases of eye injuries by rubber bullets showed that 38% had ruptured eyeball, which is rarely salvageable and could result in permanent blindness. The authors concluded that the term "rubber bullets" was misleading (Lavy, Eye 2003). While rubber bullet should be shot at the legs according to instruction (as described by Oriental Daily today trying to play down its potential harm) , would anyone believe the police could be so accurate at aiming and people will stand still to be shot at the leg? Even firing at legs at close distance has caused fracture or severe soft tissue injury requiring surgery. I guess most of the policemen on duty probably have never fired rubber bullets on human as citizens in Hong Kong have been so peaceful all along, and I beg the policemen to google the images of rubber bullet injury before they decide whether they should fire at the students, even if they are instructed by their senior to do so.

The job of a doctor is to save life, and the first principle is to DO NO HARM. This may not apply exactly to the police when using weapons like tear gas in controlling crowd, but at least they should know the HARM they may cause, and STOP telling people that it is harmless as the Assistant Commissioner did, defying all the medical evidence - it is either a LIE or IGNORANCE. Tear gas is a chemical weapon banned nowadays in wars by International Chemical Weapons Convention - why should it be used to torture citizens who can only use a mere sheet of plastic wrappings for self-protection and were then accused of being aggressive for that sake??? It should be used only in extreme situation of riot if ever, and be used properly. In fact, medical associations in some countries have called for its ban in riot control. I believe most of our policemen do have conscience, and please learn about the potential risks of these weapons through sites like Wikepedia if you are told by your senior that they are harmless or trivial weapons.

I have never written anything beyond my expertise as a surgeon. However, I feel as a doctor, I should write what I read from medical literature regarding the potential harms of tear gas and rubber bullets at this critical moment when the police is showcasing their weapons. I do hope this information can be spread to people who have no proper understanding on these weapons before they make their judgment.

I am sad to see Hong Kong is now so deeply divided, not only among politicians, but also among citizens and police, and even among family members. Everyone has their own judgment who should be responsible for the division, and it will be a long time if ever the wound could be healed. I wish the Government will have the courage and wisdom to solve the conflict with communication and peaceful means, and NO MORE tear gas to our next generation please.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Professor-Ronnie-Poon/138599119760?refid=52&__tn__=C

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

frenchbriefs said:

but Taiwan was the true original sovereign republic of China.....u must remember China was never a "nation" or a single entity,it was a series of dynasties and emperors split up into different kingdoms with different parts warring against each other for 5000 years......it was Sun Yat sen who established the first modern entity of China as a country,a sovereignty.did Taiwan claim it was the sovereignty of all chinese?no it was merely the establishment of the first independant,democratic "China".

Click to expand...

China was unified in 221BC by Qin Shi Huang and had remained unified since then. The notion of democracy is a western borrowed concept by Sun Yat Sen. If China was ready for it then, China would be democratic already. If you think that democracy is going to be the solution to poverty and the road to prosperity, then look no further but to India, the largest democracy. It is still a piece of shit.

If USA thinks that it will be around for the next 200 years, it must be delusional. Democracy in USA is just a cover up for large corporations to milk the population and this is sad. I've never come across a communist country like China, where it has more billionaires than anyone else and managed to lift 300 millions out of abject poverty starting with Deng Xiao Ping's southern tour in 1992. 300 millions Chinese is the whole population of USA. Why care who rule the country if everyone prosper and the country goes from, in 1999, with its 1.25b people but a GDP of just $3,800 per capita, China became the 2nd largest economy in the world after USA and all this accomplished without going to wars with other countries and forcing democracy on other countries and resorting to religious crusades and colonization of other countries to pillage resources. I consider this no mean feat!

As I've said many times, the 21st century is China's. Ignore it at your own peril and demise. The dragon has awakened and when China rules the world, there will be less wars and more trade and prosperity for the human race. This is the new world order and much better than the zionist USA-backed new world order, where the industrial military complex and large corporations call the shots.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Asterix said:

1) This protest is NOT about independence. It's about universal suffrage as promised in the Basic Law.

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The protest is a cover up for independence. A section of Hongkies think like the tail wagging the dog. Make no mistake. China cannot be intimidated. As long as Hong Kong is not a sovereign country, it has no say on what political system it likes. It's parent is China. Hong Kong could well be just a province. If it continues to push its agenda of universal suffrage, it has to wait. China will catch up to it in its time. To do so now is stupid and henceforth, this is not a protest. It is a rebellion. But rebel for what purpose? Hong Kong can never be self-sufficient. U.K and its British empire is history. USA will be non-existent in 50 years time. Don't be an idiot to democracy. True democracy means no government, but it is only a bloody concept. In real life, there can be no true democacy.

You think China will allow Hong Kong to have a total free hand in choosing its Chief Executive, when its own CCCP politburo does not run this way? Fat hope lah.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

This article for frenchbriefs......make no mistake, Chinese race is about a civilization, not a nation.

Finally, the Chinese race will dominate the world, both in quantity and in quality, as it had done so for millennium.

Like it or hate it, it's up to you........BUT you can't stop it.

Re: western media biased against CHN. K.Sham.

The hypocrisy is really disgusting. It's okay when you take western ideas of capitalism. It's okay when you teach children their language. It's even ok when you tolerate their religion. But it's not okay to subscribe to their basic ideas of democracy? And it's not even democracy here it's autonomy. China is breaking their agreement. The only other supporter is Russia!

Re: western media biased against CHN. K.Sham.

rushifa666 said:

The hypocrisy is really disgusting. It's okay when you take western ideas of capitalism. It's okay when you teach children their language. It's even ok when you tolerate their religion. But it's not okay to subscribe to their basic ideas of democracy? And it's not even democracy here it's autonomy. China is breaking their agreement. The only other supporter is Russia!

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I'm also a supporter.

Hong Kong is a fragrant harbor? China can make it a smelly back-water any day because Shanghai alone can replace Hong Kong as the financial centre of the world.....and it can do so in 15 years time.

Re: HK should hold Referendum on its future

Hahahahaha! What is this? All of you don't know China lah! Actually HKers are very lucky already. They have been granted more freedom than they had been under the British. Had the angles ruled, they would have beaten them up like the London rioters. HKers must count their blessings, kuai kuai go back to their pens.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Papsmearer said:

singapore is not a sovereign country either, with one million occupation force of PRCs and traitors in the govt collaborating with them.

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Singapore is but a family business with 5.5 million slaves and indentured servants and its own island.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

Papsmearer said:

singapore is not a sovereign country either, with one million occupation force of PRCs and traitors in the govt collaborating with them.

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To be exact is 4 million, including the descendents.

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

lol im a fan of communism but the amount of propaganda in this post is hilarious.China was not "ready" for anything,it was merely a country torn by two different factions "communists" and the "democrats" led by Sun Yat sen......it was merely a stroke of luck that the communists won and the rest became history.....but that doesnt matter.....cause decades later China dropped all their communist ideals and became a ultra capitalist.....dont get things mixed up,politics and economics are two different things,u can be a facist country a nazi country or democratic country but economics is the engine that drives the nation.....now the word Communist party no longer has meaning,it is merely a political party struggling to stay in control,nothing about them is communist at all.....but as long as Chinese Communist Party continue down this road,they are doomed to fail,Hong Kong is the future of China and CCP is trying to do everything they can to deny it,to postpone their fate for as long as they can like the PAP.....because when a society or country becomes highly affluent and educated and exposed to other ideologies and politics and culture,they will no longer want to live in a dictatorship,they will strive for greater freedom and autonomy.right now China is still very poor on a per capital basis,but things will start to change in two or three generations time.

u using India as a example is hilarious,it remains a shithole because its people are shit.full of shit and incompetent and retarded and born liars but only serve to deceive themselves.....has nothing to do with democracy......some races are just born inferior and cmi genetically.....same goes for failipines....and other brown and monkey countries......

USA is a fucked up place.....politically,economically,education,healthcare,fiscally,socially......it has become bloated and corrupted and twisted and sliding backwards,the american dream is slowly being eroded,america's woes comes from massive irresponsibility and subversive policies designed to bankrupt the country and fuel the corporations interest.....but no matter how fucked up USA is it cannot be as fucked up as China lol.......nothing comes close to how China exploits her citizens and their working conditions.....China merely saw capitalism as a way to make a elite minority filthy rich while exploiting the masses....uplift 300 million people out of poverty?ahahahahaha u mean now at least they have a use for these cheap worthless peasants as cheap labour,to make a few elite chinese millionaires and billionaires while throwing a few scraps to the starving masses,now we can work these peasants to death in sweatshops and factories and construction sites and throw them a few dollars while making ourselves obscenely rich.U say America is a fucked up place......but do u know how fucked up it is when the 5 or 10 or 20 largest corporations in ur country are state owned?and these corporations are massive,they have the market cap of hundreds of billions,each one is the equivalent of the size of GIC or Temasek,our national sovereign fund.....what kind of conflict of interest is that?do u think the Chinese government will be more concerned with the bottomline and profit margins of their companies or the welfare of their people?the government is supposed to take care of their people's interest but how to take care when they are the

Sinkie said:

China was unified in 221BC by Qin Shi Huang and had remained unified since then. The notion of democracy is a western borrowed concept by Sun Yat Sen. If China was ready for it then, China would be democratic already. If you think that democracy is going to be the solution to poverty and the road to prosperity, then look no further but to India, the largest democracy. It is still a piece of shit.

If USA thinks that it will be around for the next 200 years, it must be delusional. Democracy in USA is just a cover up for large corporations to milk the population and this is sad. I've never come across a communist country like China, where it has more billionaires than anyone else and managed to lift 300 millions out of abject poverty starting with Deng Xiao Ping's southern tour in 1992. 300 millions Chinese is the whole population of USA. Why care who rule the country if everyone prosper and the country goes from, in 1999, with its 1.25b people but a GDP of just $3,800 per capita, China became the 2nd largest economy in the world after USA and all this accomplished without going to wars with other countries and forcing democracy on other countries and resorting to religious crusades and colonization of other countries to pillage resources. I consider this no mean feat!

As I've said many times, the 21st century is China's. Ignore it at your own peril and demise. The dragon has awakened and when China rules the world, there will be less wars and more trade and prosperity for the human race. This is the new world order and much better than the zionist USA-backed new world order, where the industrial military complex and large corporations call the shots.

Click to expand...

Re: M Ravi: Law minister understanding of HK basic law is seriously flawed

frenchbriefs said:

lol im a fan of communism but the amount of propaganda in this post is hilarious.China was not "ready" for anything,it was merely a country torn by two different factions "communists" and the "democrats" led by Sun Yat sen......it was merely a stroke of luck that the communists won and the rest became history.....but that doesnt matter.....cause decades later China dropped all their communist ideals and became a ultra capitalist.....dont get things mixed up,politics and economics are two different things,u can be a facist country a nazi country or democratic country but economics is the engine that drives the nation.....now the word Communist party no longer has meaning,it is merely a political party struggling to stay in control,nothing about them is communist at all.....but as long as Chinese Communist Party continue down this road,they are doomed to fail,Hong Kong is the future of China and CCP is trying to do everything they can to deny it,to postpone their fate for as long as they can like the PAP.....because when a society or country becomes highly affluent and educated and exposed to other ideologies and politics and culture,they will no longer want to live in a dictatorship,they will strive for greater freedom and autonomy.right now China is still very poor on a per capital basis,but things will start to change in two or three generations time.

u using India as a example is hilarious,it remains a shithole because its people are shit.full of shit and incompetent and retarded and born liars but only serve to deceive themselves.....has nothing to do with democracy......some races are just born inferior and cmi genetically.....same goes for failipines....and other brown and monkey countries......

USA is a fucked up place.....politically,economically,education,healthcare,fiscally,socially......it has become bloated and corrupted and twisted and sliding backwards,the american dream is slowly being eroded,america's woes comes from massive irresponsibility and subversive policies designed to bankrupt the country and fuel the corporations interest.....but no matter how fucked up USA is it cannot be as fucked up as China lol.......nothing comes close to how China exploits her citizens and their working conditions.....China merely saw capitalism as a way to make a elite minority filthy rich while exploiting the masses....uplift 300 million people out of poverty?ahahahahaha u mean now at least they have a use for these cheap worthless peasants as cheap labour,to make a few elite chinese millionaires and billionaires while throwing a few scraps to the starving masses,now we can work these peasants to death in sweatshops and factories and construction sites and throw them a few dollars while making ourselves obscenely rich.U say America is a fucked up place......but do u know how fucked up it is when the 5 or 10 or 20 largest corporations in ur country are state owned?and these corporations are massive,they have the market cap of hundreds of billions,each one is the equivalent of the size of GIC or Temasek,our national sovereign fund.....what kind of conflict of interest is that?do u think the Chinese government will be more concerned with the bottomline and profit margins of their companies or the welfare of their people?the government is supposed to take care of their people's interest but how to take care when they are the

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What is your point? Everyone is fucked up so we better go to your utopia country to stay.......and that shall be where? Heaven?