Mabrokuy Will Kick You Out After 99 Yrs!

[makapaaa]

May 7, 2010

HDB clears the air on lease expiry

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I REFER to Mr Wong Pang Yee's letter, 'Allay uncertainty over HDB leasehold' (April 13).
HDB flats are 99-year leasehold properties. Like all leasehold properties, the land will revert to the Government when the lease on the land expires. The overwhelming majority of HDB flats today are far from expiry of their leases.
However, some flats in older estates may be selected for redevelopment under the Selective En Bloc Redevelopment Scheme, if it is economically viable. To maintain the value of older flats, the Government has also introduced various upgrading programmes such as the Home Improvement Programme and Lift Upgrading Programme.
Chan-Wong Jee Choo Lily (Mrs)
Deputy Director, Policy and Property
Housing & Development Board

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=heading>Latest comments</TD></TR><TR><TD id=messageDisplayRegion width="100%"><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" class=Post cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>oh wow what a reply....must learn the art of clarification without actually sorting out anything.
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Posted by: bawangmerah at Fri May 07 14:36:47 SGT 2010
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" class=AlternatePost cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Greyguy, patience lar ! Ardy not enuff space for the "Influx" of F/ts. Nw many BTOs jus started again after our "Whinnings" on tis db sometime back....suddenly, "pichak Lorbang" mus fast fast built many BTOs ....where got so mny Manpowr & $$$$ overnite ?..Maybe to "hasten" the effect, U shld knw wat 2 do with yr Vote lor !
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Posted by: MajuforSG at Fri May 07 10:34:47 SGT 2010
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" class=Post cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>[The overwhelming majority of HDB flats today are far from expiry of their leases.]
Queenstown, Havelock and Bt Ho Swee estates almost halfway thru their leases liao but no news on SERS, etc. All not included in HDB's $86.1 million Neighbourhood Renewal Programme (NRP), which covers newer estates like Marine Parade and Tampines.
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Posted by: thegreyguy at Fri May 07 10:23:33 SGT 2010
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" class=AlternatePost cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Why does HDB even bother to reply? Surely everyone understands that the land reverts to the landlord when the lease expires.
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Posted by: Baikinman at Fri May 07 05:51:58 SGT 2010
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left><TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%" class=Post cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Where did HDB clear the air on lease expiry, ST editor? The letter says absolutely nothing about the expiry on leasehold! it is telling us everything that we already know. Overwhelming majority are far from majority and mature estate may be selected for upgrading or enbloc but we want to know what happens when the leasehold expires and when it is upgraded. Pray tell.
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: top" align=left>Posted by: SeriousTalk at Fri May 07 03:47:17 SGT 2010
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[halsey02]

HDB belongs to the government, you pay money for the Landlord & the owner of the land, which is one & the same; to upgrade...you live till 99, they tell you...it is mine again...

 

[zuoom]

"All Your Base Are Belong To Us "

[youtube]qItugh-fFgg[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

 

[palden]

99 yrs? Make my hdb worth 5mil and I immediately run.

 

[NoNewsGood]

HDB flats are 99-year leasehold properties. Like all leasehold properties, the land will revert to the Government when the lease on the land expires.

HDB flats are NOT leasehold properties. The "99 years" is the tenancy period. The HDB 'owner' is nothing more than a tenant renting the flat from HDB for 99 years.

Lease (tenancy) and leasehold are different.

 

[Boliao]

99 years? the writer should be worried what happens as you approach 45 years, not 99 years.

The policy on maximum load period of leasehold is the lease period divided by two, minus the age of the property. So for leasehold, you cannot get a bank or HDB loan after 45 years... you're stuck with it since you cannot sell it and whatever money you paid will depreciate every single year.

Assuming most Singapore takes a 30-years loan, the last owner of a 99 years leasehold property will be the dickhead that buys it at year 15.

That why you should always, always go for freehold, landed property

 

[Papsmearer]

99 years? the writer should be worried what happens as you approach 45 years, not 99 years.

The policy on maximum load period of leasehold is the lease period divided by two, minus the age of the property. So for leasehold, you cannot get a bank or HDB loan after 45 years... you're stuck with it since you cannot sell it and whatever money you paid will depreciate every single year.

Assuming most Singapore takes a 30-years loan, the last owner of a 99 years leasehold property will be the dickhead that buys it at year 15.

That why you should always, always go for freehold, landed property

Easier said than done, who got money to buy landed freehold property? Only a very small minority. Your advice is next to useless.

 

[Papsmearer]

HDB belongs to the government, you pay money for the Landlord & the owner of the land, which is one & the same; to upgrade...you live till 99, they tell you...it is mine again...

The problem with whythe HDB has to clarify this policy is that the fucking PAP elites like Lau Goh, Lee Con You, and Gay Loong regularly go on local and international news and say that S'poreans OWN their flats, and that S'poreans are property owners etc. This is not true. They are lying pieces of shit. But end up confusing the gullible.

 

[halsey02]

The problem with whythe HDB has to clarify this policy is that the fucking PAP elites like Lau Goh, Lee Con You, and Gay Loong regularly go on local and international news and say that S'poreans OWN their flats, and that S'poreans are property owners etc. This is not true. They are lying pieces of shit. But end up confusing the gullible.

I found out & knew that years ago, when I was a privilege few who paid fully for the flat & got the Tenancy agreement. I do not own the flat after I had paid fully for it...I am a tenant of HDB..I ask their legal department why...the played..tai chi!

They know, only a few in their lifetime even before 60 or after..will never ever get to see the title deed of the flat..they had paid for..

WAKE UP SINGAPOREANS...ask the right question!!

 

[longbow]

When HDB does an enbloc, do they top up the lease to 99 years? And if so any idea how much do they charge th residents. Or do they buy flat from residents and then give them priority to buy the new flats at mkt price.

I think 99 years lease is fine. Just go look at the prices property is chnaging hands in HK and their lease is even shorter than 99 years.

HDB does have to make clear how they intend to handle the flats with less than 40 year. If HDB lifts the rental restriction on who can buy and rent flats with short leases, there will be a market for these flats.

After all how much would an investor pay for an investment (30 year lease) that will pay $2K per month for 30 years. At 3% that comes to $470k. So there is a value to these homes if they liberalize the rental policy.

As is usually the case, the flats with expiring leases are often located in central areas (that is who cities and developed). What was once ulu Bishan/Toa payoh is now hot areas. Think about Bukit Merah/Queenstown - all right smack in the city.


Anyhow, not to concerned about the solution because it involves 80% of pop and if the solution is bad they will lose voters. We are talking about majority heartlanders and pocketbook impacts.

 

[Papsmearer]

When HDB does an enbloc, do they top up the lease to 99 years? And if so any idea how much do they charge th residents. Or do they buy flat from residents and then give them priority to buy the new flats at mkt price.

I think 99 years lease is fine. Just go look at the prices property is chnaging hands in HK and their lease is even shorter than 99 years.

HDB does have to make clear how they intend to handle the flats with less than 40 year. If HDB lifts the rental restriction on who can buy and rent flats with short leases, there will be a market for these flats.

After all how much would an investor pay for an investment (30 year lease) that will pay $2K per month for 30 years. At 3% that comes to $470k. So there is a value to these homes if they liberalize the rental policy.

As is usually the case, the flats with expiring leases are often located in central areas (that is who cities and developed). What was once ulu Bishan/Toa payoh is now hot areas. Think about Bukit Merah/Queenstown - all right smack in the city.


Anyhow, not to concerned about the solution because it involves 80% of pop and if the solution is bad they will lose voters. We are talking about majority heartlanders and pocketbook impacts.

My undertstanding is than in an en bloc, they will kick out the flat occupiers. They don't buy the flat from you. They offer a new flat to you at another location and tell you the new flat is worth a lot more than your exisitng flat. They ask you to top up the difference and sign a new 99 year lease.

I don't understand why u are comparing HK to S'pore. Is there a restriction on who can buy or rent shorter than 40 year flats? I have no knowledge of this. I only know the banks will not finance something so short, and the inventory of flats with 40 years or less in the HDB's possession does not seem to be alot.

 

[Papsmearer]

I found out & knew that years ago, when I was a privilege few who paid fully for the flat & got the Tenancy agreement. I do not own the flat after I had paid fully for it...I am a tenant of HDB..I ask their legal department why...the played..tai chi!

They know, only a few in their lifetime even before 60 or after..will never ever get to see the title deed of the flat..they had paid for..

WAKE UP SINGAPOREANS...ask the right question!!

Actually, its a big problem with S'poreans. But its all part of a big conspiracy and cover up. Ultimately, its the S'poreans fault, they are so highly educated but they cannot read the print on their leasehold agreement with the HDB. Asking them to wake up is one thing, but look at the impediments. Their leaders are telling them they own their flats. When they book their flats and put their deposit down, no one at the HDB office explains to them they don't own the flat, they are prepaying their rent for 99 years in advance and paying for it with a 30 year loan. The HDB will downplay any questions about the ownership. And when they go to their lawyer for the conveyancing, again, they are not explained the actual terms of the lease by their lawyer. Why? The lawyers want to make money too.

 

[eatshitndie]

When HDB does an enbloc, do they top up the lease to 99 years? And if so any idea how much do they charge th residents. Or do they buy flat from residents and then give them priority to buy the new flats at mkt price.

I think 99 years lease is fine. Just go look at the prices property is chnaging hands in HK and their lease is even shorter than 99 years.

HDB does have to make clear how they intend to handle the flats with less than 40 year. If HDB lifts the rental restriction on who can buy and rent flats with short leases, there will be a market for these flats.

After all how much would an investor pay for an investment (30 year lease) that will pay $2K per month for 30 years. At 3% that comes to $470k. So there is a value to these homes if they liberalize the rental policy.

the enbloc math doesn't work out well for those who have fully paid for their flats after 30-40 years of being mortgage slaves. why? because these folks have "retired" and are living on their miserable savings or a tiny fixed income (from part time work, pension, disability fund, interest earnings, rental income, donations, handouts from relatives and friends, etc.)

imagine working hard for 40 years since 1970 when the monthly pay was say sgd1200. fortunately, the price of a humble hdb flat in the 70's was affordable, but the monthly mortgage still consumed much of the income. you remained frugal all your life and saved a miserable sgd120k for retirement based on 1970 projections. add another sgd120k from cpf savings to your pot. you should be comfortable with zero mortgage and daily subsistence of porridge, tofu and vege. you can live till 80 and die contented, barring any huge medical bills for life prolonging pursuits.

now they tell you you have to surrender your flat, rent and buy back your upgraded flat when it's all done, or sell and buy a new or used flat at a new location. even with "priority" and a discounted price from market value, your well-calculated retirement is suddenly interrupted and your peace is jolted. everything is in jeopardy. your plan for a quiet demise goes back on the drawing board, starting from square one. even in death, they want to stick it to you. your total retirement savings of sgd240k may be spent not on your 20-year atrophy of your mind and body, but on your new flat, and all the associated cost that go with it. by agreeing to a surrender of the old flat and upgrade to a new one, you suddenly have a new mortage of thousands of sgd per month to cough up, even after subtracting earnings from the surrender or sale of the old flat. but who other than the hdb is gonna buy your old flat at an inflated market rate after they have announced the "enbloc" shock and awe? without bids from 3rd parties, are they gonna offer at an inflated market price? obviously not. heads they win, tails you lose.

 

[Papsmearer]

the enbloc math doesn't work out well for those who have fully paid for their flats after 30-40 years of being mortgage slaves. why? because these folks have "retired" and are living on their miserable savings or a tiny fixed income (from part time work, pension, disability fund, interest earnings, rental income, donations, handouts from relatives and friends, etc.)

imagine working hard for 40 years since 1970 when the monthly pay was say sgd1200. fortunately, the price of a humble hdb flat in the 70's was affordable, but the monthly mortgage still consumed much of the income. you remained frugal all your life and saved a miserable sgd120k for retirement based on 1970 projections. add another sgd120k from cpf savings to your pot. you should be comfortable with zero mortgage and daily subsistence of porridge, tofu and vege. you can live till 80 and die contented, barring any huge medical bills for life prolonging pursuits.

now they tell you you have to surrender your flat, rent and buy back your upgraded flat when it's all done, or sell and buy a new or used flat at a new location. even with "priority" and a discounted price from market value, your well-calculated retirement is suddenly interrupted and your peace is jolted. everything is in jeopardy. your plan for a quiet demise goes back on the drawing board, starting from square one. even in death, they want to stick it to you. your total retirement savings of sgd240k may be spent not on your 20-year atrophy of your mind and body, but on your new flat, and all the associated cost that go with it. by agreeing to a surrender of the old flat and upgrade to a new one, you suddenly have a new mortage of thousands of sgd per month to cough up, even after subtracting earnings from the surrender or sale of the old flat. but who other than the hdb is gonna buy your old flat at an inflated market rate after they have announced the "enbloc" shock and awe? without bids from 3rd parties, are they gonna offer at an inflated market price? obviously not. heads they win, tails you lose.

What u say is true. In fact, if you look at it, the HDB has no intention to honour the 99 year lease. Why? Look at their flats. Structurally, they cannot last 99 years, especially with the workmanship and quality of materials they put into it. Maybe last 60 years at the most, therefore, they almost have to move people out thru enbloc or other such schemes. This is illegal actually, but their lease agreement allows them to do that. If a commercial landlord signs a 10 years lease with a tenant, he cannot move them out under any circumstances devised by him. The HDB does not adhere to this. In law, a tenant can refuse to move out of their HDB flast because they have a legal document that says they can stay there for 99 years.

The PAP and the HDB works in conjuction to kepp the people indebted all the time. By buying a flat, they fall into the trap.

 

[longbow]

No idea what the procedure is for enbloc. DO they need 90% approval from residents or is it at the whim of HDB.

I agree that for a retiree who has spent their whole live in a flat and are familiar with neighborhood, enblocs can be disruptive. But then it makes sense to upgrade old building, with old plumbing and cheap constrution.

Perhaps if the transaction for HDB enbloc is similar to what is happening in the pte market - requires a certain approval rate, prices are similiar to market prices (valuers can attest to the prices) or even more, it would be fair.

Think about it, many of these places are located in very central areas. For some, it might be situation where the elderly could upgrade to new flat and pass the valuable flats to their kids a few years down the road.

 

[eatshitndie]

I found out & knew that years ago, when I was a privilege few who paid fully for the flat & got the Tenancy agreement. I do not own the flat after I had paid fully for it...I am a tenant of HDB..I ask their legal department why...the played..tai chi!

They know, only a few in their lifetime even before 60 or after..will never ever get to see the title deed of the flat..they had paid for..

WAKE UP SINGAPOREANS...ask the right question!!

at least with leasehold condos, the owner gets to see the title deed even if the condo is floating on land that is owned by everyone in the community. with a hdb tenancy agreement, it's a glorified lease... no title no deed. don't even think about "ownership"; ownership of tiles, paint, window grills plus liability perhaps, but not home ownership.

 

[eatshitndie]

Think about it, many of these places are located in very central areas. For some, it might be situation where the elderly could upgrade to new flat and pass the valuable flats to their kids a few years down the road.

with life expectancy going up, it will not be a few years but a few decades. by then, kids will be overseas or want to have nothing to do with sg and her overpriced flats. moreover, it's not wise to pass liability, indebtedness and mortgage slavery down to the next generation. they may curse you in your death.

 

[eatshitndie]

What u say is true. In fact, if you look at it, the HDB has no intention to honour the 99 year lease. Why? Look at their flats. Structurally, they cannot last 99 years, especially with the workmanship and quality of materials they put into it. Maybe last 60 years at the most, therefore, they almost have to move people out thru enbloc or other such schemes. This is illegal actually, but their lease agreement allows them to do that. If a commercial landlord signs a 10 years lease with a tenant, he cannot move them out under any circumstances devised by him. The HDB does not adhere to this. In law, a tenant can refuse to move out of their HDB flast because they have a legal document that says they can stay there for 99 years.

The PAP and the HDB works in conjuction to kepp the people indebted all the time. By buying a flat, they fall into the trap.

the flats that hdb claimed old, decrepit and need upgrading can last longer. they are in a merciless money-minded system to conduct urban renewal regularly to inject activity and capital movement to the economy to artificially achieve 'growth'. at the same time, grow revenue by manipulating market forces and redistributing use of land, especially when most buyers have very little choice when it comes to having a roof over the head (one of the few basic necessities of human life). top that with long term indebtedness and captivity on the buyer's part. if a corporation can get a customer to sign up for life for below average goods and services, it has a great marketing and sales team. genius.

 

[longbow]

I took a quick look. Pricing is based on private valuation (good). However no need to meet the 80% approval as per pte property (bad). But HDB survey shows 86% happy with SERS (ok potential for tweaked numbers here but if not then the 86% would meet pte prop hurdle).

I took a look at 3 rm flat at Bukit Merah (high SERS potential). These flats were built in 1970 and are selling at $300K avg.

http://services2.hdb.gov.sg/webapp/BB33RTIS/BB33PReslTrans.jsp

If your flat got enbloced you could very well get $300K and are allowed to buy a new flat with financial grants if you qualify. A spanking new Sengkang 4rm flat goes for $210K. So you can move from an old 40 year old flat with 60 years left on lease to new 99 yr flat and still keep $80K cash in the bank. Sound pretty good to me. You could buy back a 3rm in Sengkang for $170K and keep $130K.

Or you could decided to buy in your redeveloped area but would have to top up probably another $50K.

For many it makes sense to cash in and buy a new flat in Sengkang or Punggol - areas where their kids are now staying.

For those that are low on funds, moving to 3 rm or 2 rm brand new Sengkang flat would mean a windfall of $130K to $150K (no small change).

For those wiith the cash, they get priority to buy flat new flat in the same area with a small top up of $50K to $70K.

One must remember that many of these old estates have issues with leaks, bad plumbing, no lifts to every floor poor design.

In short I believe that the 86% approval sounds just about right. The only folks that do not like SERS are those that just bought it as resale and paid COV and reno.

 

[longbow]

I guess the problem regarding affordability is that HDB caters to such a wide demographic.

I think flats are very affordable for typical poly or uni edu buyers. Lets see, both husband and wife have poly degree. I think 5 years into their career (it takes about 5 years min for flat to be ready, some might have up to 8 years working experience before moving into their new flat) they should easily be taking home $6K to $8K combined. A flat at Sengkang for $220K after 10% down is about $800.00 per month in mortgage for 30 years. If your household income is bet $6K and instead of making $800 payment you make $1600 payment - very affordable since that is about what goes into the CPF anyway, your loan period drops to 9 years. If you can make a $2K payment (remember about $1.8K goes into CPF so just top up $200 more and you payment period drops to 7.5 years.

Even for the people taking home $3K a month (after CPF deduction of about $1.1K) they can easily afford the $800pm payment and can easily make a $1200 pm payment which would cut payment time to 11 years.

The problem arise when you have families making combined $2K a month and they try for a 4 rm flat. That leave very little room for error. These these people, 3 rm might be better bets.

I think the big problem is that couples who in the past wanted to start family fast had the option to go to resale market and pay a premium. But given the FT influx that option has become too expensive and then add on the shortage of new flats (even if willing to wait), these couples are caught in the middle.