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Bitcoin & cyptocurrencies

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I am not sure if there are any current models of valuations that can be applied to any crypto that is not backed by an issuing institution or like gold, silver, equities or other investment grade instruments has an underlying value.



That's the main problem. No one knows how to value bitcoin. Everyone has his own opinion. I am skeptical of the view that bitcoin should be valuable because it is energy-consuming to mine them. Many activities are difficult or resource consuming but that does not make them valuable. The currency model is probably the best way to value bitcoin - whether people and institutions will accept it as payment.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
For argument sake, if someone introduces a new savvy crypto whose attributes supersedes Bitcoin, it is likely that Bitcoin will be worthless.

Before MSN messenger, there were ICQ and AIM; likewise before Facebook, there were Frienster and MySpace.

Before the leading cryptocurrency creeps into everyday life, there's Bitcoin.

I could be wrong, I'm not a prophet, definitely not a false prophet :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

ChanRasjid

Alfrescian
Loyal
In economics and finance, a valuation model is based on a medium of exchange and it is usually fiat money.

Take the valuation of gold. First, there must be a market for gold valued in $/oz. Gold mines would only produce gold only if the prize is above mining cost. So the base value for gold is the mining cost (no one sells gold below mining cost). This same model could also be used for bitcoin if there is a market for bitcoin. The base value of bitcoin is the mining cost (I think the mining cost at present has increased dramatically because of competition? someone please clarify).

There may a huge difference between gold and bitcoin as store of value. The physical gold market can never disappear completely as gold is physical, but bitcoin hypothetically may disappear completely when the copies of the blockchain are neglected or deleted. Without a bitcoin market, we still need power to mine bitcoin, but the mining cost is no more relevant for valuation.

So, the only reliable valuation of bitcoin is still the spot market from the bitcoin exchanges giving con-prices and con-values.

Caveat Emptor!

Chan Rasjid.
 

ChanRasjid

Alfrescian
Loyal
https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-mine-1-Bitcoin-in-the-US
The estimate in the above shows bitcoin cost as USD 5000 per bitcoin. What it means is no miners would mine bitcoin below $5000 and it would sell only above $5000 (if the market still exist).

I think the current price of bitcoin is indeed tied to the mining cost so the reason why the price has increased dramatically may also be due to the mining cost. In the early days we could mine bitcoin with an ordinary PC and we make a profit selling it above mining cost. The mining cost then may be just $10 per bitcoin. Because of the current competition, only those using the ASIC chips could mine bitcoins successfully. This may be the reason of a general rise in bitcoin prices over time, not because of any intrinsic value of bitcoin.

Chan Rasjid.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thats the fear. It is also common practice to include a premium when accepting bitcoins in view of its volatility.

MySpace as you mentioned is another phenomenon that was superseded. In 2010, Blackberry was the darling, so was Nokia prior to that. Nobody predicted their fall.

Before MSN messenger, there were ICQ and AIM; likewise before Facebook, there were Frienster and MySpace.

Before the leading cryptocurrency creeps into everyday life, there's Bitcoin.

I could be wrong, I'm not a prophet, definitely not a false prophet :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

gatehousethetinkertailor

Alfrescian
Loyal
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zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
Thats the fear.

Change is the only constant we can take comfort in.

Blockchain technology banks on distributed trust - Transparency and legality issues aside, the current energy input for creating blocks does put a lot of strain on the viability to safekeep ledgers and/or other sensitive data in the long run. Please correct me if I'm wrong :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

gatehousethetinkertailor

Alfrescian
Loyal
In economics and finance, a valuation model is based on a medium of exchange and it is usually fiat money.

Take the valuation of gold. First, there must be a market for gold valued in $/oz. Gold mines would only produce gold only if the prize is above mining cost. So the base value for gold is the mining cost (no one sells gold below mining cost). This same model could also be used for bitcoin if there is a market for bitcoin. The base value of bitcoin is the mining cost (I think the mining cost at present has increased dramatically because of competition? someone please clarify).

There may a huge difference between gold and bitcoin as store of value. The physical gold market can never disappear completely as gold is physical, but bitcoin hypothetically may disappear completely when the copies of the blockchain are neglected or deleted. Without a bitcoin market, we still need power to mine bitcoin, but the mining cost is no more relevant for valuation.

So, the only reliable valuation of bitcoin is still the spot market from the bitcoin exchanges giving con-prices and con-values.

Caveat Emptor!

Chan Rasjid.

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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
There a chap that built a verification system for loan documents that he is submitting to a particular central bank for due diligence. He told me that it was built on blockchain technology and therefore does not require the substantial hardware and server space required for participating banks. And he told me that the technology saves considerable cost. He said that the cost savings was why a lot of institutions are involved in it. Initially I thought it was only trust and transparency.

And yes, change is constant.


Change is the only constant we can take comfort in.

Blockchain technology banks on distributed trust - Transparency and legality issues aside, the current energy input for creating blocks does put a lot of strain on the viability to safekeep ledgers and/or other sensitive data in the long run. Please correct me if I'm wrong :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

Wunderfool

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Why is Bitcoin 'rare' and 'expensive' ? Because it is increasingly very difficult to 'mine' The total number of bitcoins is limited to 21 millions.

Here's the details

The crypto currency that evolved from obscurity


Bitcoin was conceived in the doldrums of the 2008 market meltdown, when the regular banking system came near a global collapse. It is accredited to a person using the pseudonym of Satoshi Nakamoto who published in November 2008 a paper under the title: Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. The bitcoin software was released under open source code in January 2009. To this date the identity of Nakamoto remains unknown.


The BitCoin Miners

The software released essentially entails an organized search for difficult to find numbers, called nonce. You can envision it as a form of massive hacking attempt to find the access key to a cryptographically secured password. If you crack it, you obtain a block, which gets exchanged for Bitcoins. Early on the keys you had to crack were short, so it was easy, but the network continuedly adjusts the difficulty requiring more processing power and time to find the next one. Imagine a password that has only 2 digits, who can be either 0 or 1.

4 attempts of combinations will open it:

11,01,10 or 00

When you extend to 3 digits it will take 8 attempts:

111,110,101,011,100,010,001 or 000

The longer the key, the longer it takes.

In the Bitcoin world, this isn’t called “cracking” but rather “mining”, conjuring the image of digging for gold.



(Source)

Early on, computers could find a nonce fast, but as the difficulty got elevated, it required more and more processing power. As it turns out parallel processing capability is preferable to the serial processing of computer processors. Modern graphics cards excel at this. In the race to mine Bitcoins the fastest graphics cards gave you an edge. This led to an un-expected demand for Nvidia (NVDA) graphics cards in the early days, as they were ideal for mining. These days specialized computer chips designed for the sole purpose of mining bitcoins are deployed. Nvidia graphic cards are still in use for other digital currencies.

There is a cost associated with mining, and that is the electricity to run the computer. The usage could spike high enough that the police raided bitcoin miners in the search of illegal weed growing operations.


As finding a bitcoin block got more and more demanding, mining corporations sprung up. Essentially a mining corporation or guild used the distributed computing power of its members to search for bitcoins and then shared the bounty with all, minus an administrative commission. An individual miner didn’t have to go for the all or nothing option anymore, he obtained fractions of a bitcoin.

The race was always to find the next block first, as the one after it gets subsequently harder and if you weren't first, all the computing time invested was lost. That explains why Nvidia was constantly sold out on the newest most bitcoin-worthy graphics cards.

The total number of bitcoins is limited to 21 million. The last bitcoin to be mined is expected for 2140. So there will be a limited supply.

You have found “virtual gold” - what to do with it? Bitcoins are stored publicly in something called a blockchain, which is the equivalent of a security box that resides on multiple networked computers. Your ownership is secured with an almost un-crackable private key. Just yesterday the CEO of NiceHash announced some $75M worth of bitcoins stolen in a successful hacking attempt, so "almost" is the correct description.

As an individual if you lose the key you lose the bitcoin in your deposit box. There is no central key to get it back.

Paying with BitCoin
A virtual wallet stores the information necessary to access and transact with bitcoins. With your private key you can re-assign bitcoins to someone else. These transactions can happen without any proof of your identity, which made it attractive for all sort of illicit activity on the dark net.

Bitcoins are the equivalent of digital cash, not a check or a wire transfer, where you can easily identify the sender.

Bitcoins have three useful qualities in a currency, according to The Economist in January 2015: they are "hard to earn, limited in supply and easy to verify"

It is still debated though whether bitcoins are indeed a currency, as they do not have backing of any government. Where it becomes real is at the bitcoin exchanges that trade bitcoins for any other global currency.

How much is a bitcoin really worth?
Let’s start with an easier question: What is the cost of a bitcoin?

Miners pay real world dollars to invest into computers commonly called bit mining rigs (capital) and then electricity to operate them (running cost).

If bitcoins cost more to generate than their trade in value in USD, the mining economy would collapse. First the capital would dry up, as it isn’t worth to spend thousands of dollars on new mining rigs and then bit by bit the existing rigs would be shut down as the cost of electricity exceeds the value of the bitcoin generated. No different than the fracking drilling rigs really….

As of Nov. 30 th this year according to one calculation published on Quora you need 13,684 kWHrs to generate one bitcoin. In comparison a typical US home uses about 11,000 kWhrs per year. At the average rate of electricity of 12 cts/kWhr in the US, that equates to 1642 USD just for the operating costs. The Antminer S9 rig that was used for this calculation is available for purchase on Amazon for about $5,500. For $7,200 you too could get into bitcoin mining. But I wouldn’t recommend it. By the time one Antminer finds a bitcoin block, the goal post will have moved. If someone else finds it first, your work gets discarded and the clock restarts. You are competing with data center size installations, some of them located in Iceland where energy is cheap.

This has grown into a veritable industry. As a former bitcoin prospector, I couldn’t compete anymore.

Let's assume that the Antminer has to pay back in a year as it will obsolete quickly. The cost of generating a new bitcoin in the US equals about $7,200 today. In a country with lower energy cost, it could go as low as $6,400.

This is the current price to continue increasing the supply of Bitcoins.

Assuming a 20% profit that calculates to around $7,800-$8,640 for a brand-new bitcoin. The lower floor is the variable cost of electricity: $400 - $1600/bitcoin

Unlike the oil industry which is solely dependent on the selling price of oil, in bitcoin mining, the difficulty of finding a bitcoin block is dependent on the aggregate computing capacity assigned. The time to find a new blockchain is kept nearly constant. If the computing capacity doubles, the task will get doubly difficult, taking the same time. If everyone else would stop mining completely, your own desktop computer would be sufficient again to do some mining. The cost of mining is variable and drops with less market participants. Of course, that would have to be precipitated by a massive price drop of Bitcoins, causing everyone else to fall below variable cost.
 
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gatehousethetinkertailor

Alfrescian
Loyal
There a chap that built a verification system for loan documents that he is submitting to a particular central bank for due diligence. He told me that it was built on blockchain technology and therefore does not require the substantial hardware and server space required for participating banks. And he told me that the technology saves considerable cost. He said that the cost savings was why a lot of institutions are involved in it. Initially I thought it was only trust and transparency.

And yes, change is constant.

Pulau Ubin report here: http://www.mas.gov.sg/~/media/ProjectUbin/Project Ubin SGD on Distributed Ledger.pdf

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Wunderfool

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
When you should invest in bitcoin

I’ll highly encourage you to invest money into bitcoin if you meet any of the following criteria:

- You are young and you “know” bitcoin will change the world

- You want to get rich in a hurry

- You don’t mind being called “stupid” by one of the most successful banking CEOs

- You can’t stand to be the odd man out in your peer group

- You like bragging about your smarts in investing.

You will gain invaluable insights:

- You’ll get a full emotional investor profile of yourself

- You’ll get a chance to experience the emotions of greed, hubris, fear and despair on a highly condensed time line (and likely in that order)

- You will make lots of new friends, that share the bond of a once in a century experience, unless you were the one recommending they invest

- You will come out of this experience as a better investor, unless you succeed in making money. Then I am afraid you will be on a lifelong quest to find the next bitcoin for another “kick.”
 

Wunderfool

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
When you should not invest in bitcoin

I discourage you to invest money if you meet any of the following criteria:


- You can’t afford a total loss of the money invested or even a partial loss

- You don’t have a computer, don’t trust credit cards or online banking

- You like stashing your money away under your mattress

- You think bitcoin is a piece of a coin

- Your underage grandson thinks this is the coolest way to make money.
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Before MSN messenger, there were ICQ and AIM; likewise before Facebook, there were Frienster and MySpace.

Before the leading cryptocurrency creeps into everyday life, there's Bitcoin.

I could be wrong, I'm not a prophet, definitely not a false prophet :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
both paypal and ebay are working on new crypto, and most likely almost there. there’s a sinkie guy who has a post-doc specializing in cryptography and works for one of them. he’s so over-qualified in the subject that sg has no place for him, either in post-doc r&d or a sinkie career. he’s most probably the best qualified sinkie authority on this subject, but he’s mum for now. working feverishly in a lab in sj.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Good post.

In this case, it is a closed crypto currency and they call it "coupon" and only redeemable for value from MAS as the only exchange. The main value of the mechanism is the underlying technology that provides a secure payments environment, cheaper overheads and the its immutable nature and speed of clearance.

Interestingly with this technology some old time tested mechanism are also present - Netting (contra) as in ancient and still present Hawallah network where netting takes places and not the physical movement of money.

 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
It does show how confused people are when it comes to this technology. Despite the generic name "crypto currency" it has nothing to do with some advanced cryptography or requires some cutting edge cryptographers. The encryption / hash technology involved is garden variety that was available 40years ago when ATM PIN was introduced using the Racal hardware encryption box that every neighbourhood banks had 4 decades ago.

The distributed ledger, its immutability and "mining" difficulty to ensure that barriers to mining is sky high are central features.

If a cryptographer was hired, he probably end up manning the reception counter.

looks like a showdown between JM and LKS's crypto vs PayPal and Ebay :eek::eek::eek:
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Not many folks in the streets understood the fiat money system, fewer folks understood what's TCP/IP :confused::confused::confused:
someone just took the bait and bite. it's the creation of a new genesis block plus a tighter timestamp that are precursors to a new crypto-currency system - i.e. a modified variant. although the cryptography uses hashcash with sha-256 and is well understood (very scalable and powerful), it requires a cryptographer with very advanced cse skills to dream of a new genesis block (thus bitcoin alternative) or variant with ever faster average timestamps in creating the next non-orphan block. look up litecoin with average time between blocks of 2.5 mins. litecoin uses a different cryptographic protocol based on open source. (note to moron: cryptographic protocol is different from hashing algorithms in that it can use one as part of its protocol but it does equate with one). current average time between bitcoin blocks is 10 minutes (too long to some) although the first block after the genesis block took nearly 6.9 days. 6.9 is a recurring theme in everything we do.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I guess it will be education for all of us in every new thing. I wonder how much the World would change because of this.

I also note that Singapore Government is always a fast follower but in the last 2 decades we don’t seem to make much progress after initial entry. Our endeavour in A*Star is a good example. Even with PY and a full Perm Sec seconded all these years nothing much except to employ an army of FTs and a 91 year Nobel laureate who supervised PY’s son PHD years back after he was recruited.

Not many folks in the streets understood the fiat money system, fewer folks understood what's TCP/IP :confused::confused::confused:
 
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