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Low Thia Khiang accuse Mah not giving full picture of costs

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Alfrescian
Loyal
Mah not giving full picture of costs: Low
By Kor Kian Beng

WORKERS' Party (WP) chief Low Thia Khiang yesterday accused National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan of not giving Singaporeans the full picture on housing costs.

He maintained that his party's proposal to lower new flat prices would have 'minimal impact' on resale prices.

The Hougang MP cited two reasons: The number of new HDB flats is relatively small, and they are subject to a minimum occupancy period of five years before they can be sold on the resale market.

'So, how much can the price of a new flat affect the resale market price, and to the extent that he is saying that it is going to be a big impact? I think he is misleading the public,' said Mr Low, speaking to The Straits Times in an interview.

The opposition leader was responding to Mr Mah's criticisms of the WP's manifesto unveiled last Saturday. It proposes to lower new HDB flat prices by pegging them to the median incomes of Singaporeans. Now, it is tied to resale market prices, and then discounted.

Mr Mah warned the WP's proposal would lower the value of Singapore's one million homes in what he called an 'asset-devaluation policy', as opposed to the People's Action Party's (PAP) asset- enhancement policy.

He explained that the housing markets are interlinked, and so a reduction in new HDB flat prices would have an impact on the resale flat market.

The government subsidy on new flats, he added, already adds up to $1 billion yearly, as he criticised the WP for being irresponsible for not saying how it plans to pay for cheaper flats.

Mr Mah, whose ministry oversees the Housing Board, said the WP should state if it wants a larger subsidy or government spending to be cut in other areas because 'you can't get something for nothing'.

Yesterday, Mr Low fired back, saying it is not a subsidy, but a discount based on market prices, which would fluctuate over time.

He also responded to Mr Mah's comments that the HDB already operates at a loss, and so lower prices would further reduce its revenue.

Mr Low believes land costs make up the bulk of the board's expenses in building flats. And if that is lowered by the Singapore Land Authority, HDB would not have to suffer such a loss, and the savings could be passed on to first-time home buyers.

The key is if the Government is prepared to collect less money from land sales. 'It is a question of taking your money from the left pocket and putting in the right pocket. So, let us know what is the land cost,' he pressed.

The money from land sales on long lease is not included as part of the budget for current government spending, but goes into the reserves, he added, citing a previous official reply in Parliament.

The WP's proposal, he stressed, is driven by its concern that new public housing could become unaffordable for young Singaporeans.

Even though some Singaporeans have benefited from their homes rising in value, he wondered about its sustainability.

'Can the Government tell us how much more you can enhance your asset 20 years down the road? There is always a threshold in terms of property, right?' asked Mr Low.

'Perhaps 20 years down the road, maybe HDB flats will cost you more than $1 million.'

He also stressed that asset enhancement is largely meaningful and useful for investment, but not for homes that people live in. He said it means little unless homeowners sell their homes, but that could mean trade-offs, such as downgrading to smaller homes. And if the property bubble bursts, they would be left with negative assets, he said.

Mr Low asked: 'Can the PAP Government guarantee us that this will never happen down the road? Can they provide the guarantee?'
 

IR123

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The solution is quite simple.

Mah Bow Tan step down since he does not have the vision of Low Thia Kiang. LTK step up to be the new Minister of National Development.

All MBT needs to do is to give LTK a guarantee that if LTK cannot perform, MBT promise not to laugh.
 

palden

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Allow Singapore born Singaporeans to own 2 HDB flats! PRs can only buy or rent from them. This immediately gives most of the people a residue income. Then the FT policy can be tolerated
 

IR123

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Allow Singapore born Singaporeans to own 2 HDB flats! PRs can only buy or rent from them. This immediately gives most of the people a residue income. Then the FT policy can be tolerated

Great idea.

Given the current climate of oppositions questioning the ministers' salaries (because they are not there yet) and propose raising NCMP allowances to MP level (because they may be there by the grace of PAP), bringing wife on-board with an option to bring father, mother, son, daughter, nephew and niece later on with a clear conscience that nepotism is absolutely not involved, not contesting in AMK when it would have provided excellent feedback to PM LHL on his much-loved policies, not coming out unless there is an iron-clad guarantee (will 10,000 online signatures be enough?), your idea is a great idea!

May I suggest giving every Singaporean the right to own 5 HDB flats? PAP supporters can own 10? After all, we voted for the PAP and all things equal, our right to own should be upgraded to PAP-class.

Your idea has an easily recognizable face, so you can have confidence we will vote for you. Once again, congratulations on your idea.
 

kingrant

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Unfortunately, Mah is correct. The housing markets of resale, private and HDB new flats are so intertwined now it will be impossible to disentangle them. It's like the economy and stock markets - if you believe in price info is the determinant of supply and demand, it is inevitable that fiddling with one side will affect another side. Why do you think Mah up till now is unable to bring down prices even after all his cooling measures? He's only doing it for show and psychology ahead of the GE. People who really know dont believe him.
 

wizard

Alfrescian
Loyal
Not accuse but a fact..

Does HDB has a statement of account? Cost of land, material , machinery , labour and other etc vs number of unit sold at what price per year?

Not only that, do we have a statement on CPF ? Amount collected in year xxxx amount use for investment xxxx , Amount set a side for pending collection ?

Do we have a statement how much money is from cpf to termasek and GIC..? How much is the return and set back into cpf?

NO NO NO NO.... We just get TCSS from the millions dollars ministers...

Enug is enug.. I am not a politican but i think this is what the WP aim to be world class parliment. A parliment that have a is accountable to its people and not the other way round.

The minister get 2-3 miliions per years. Actually i am not against it like most people in the forum. I am against it is because they are not doing a good job. They keep telling you how good is our county but they have not show the actual number.. Do we pay million to CEO of bank of China if he keep telling you the bank is strong his management is the best but there is no actual finance statement but he keep incresing his pay...

If the ministers is really good .. the should be pay more the 2-3 millions.. But looking at the current situation.. U think they derserve it?
 

IR123

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The minister get 2-3 miliions per years. Actually i am not against it like most people in the forum. I am against it is because they are not doing a good job.

If the ministers is really good .. the should be pay more the 2-3 millions.. But looking at the current situation.. U think they derserve it?

If you think their post deserve 2-3 million but they don't because they are not doing a good job, then it all hinges on your definition of 'good job'.

So, why do you keep on saying that they are not doing a good job?

If you ask them, they will say that they are doing a good job. If you ask me, I will say that they are doing a far better job than all the oppositions put together. If they ask you, you will say that they are not doing a good job.

Define 'good job' and we will have a better way to evaluate them. And we can also assess if such job performance are far in excess of their nearest world competitors.
 

ivebert

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I don't agree with cheap pigeonholes

Once you give the peasants cheap houses, they will be eye-ing to profit from the 1st sale

Then they will amass their money to move to Australia or Canada, countries that likes Chinese peasants

Why be so nice to these disloyal dogs?
 

palden

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Loyal
The proceeds from Casino entrance fee should be used to provide real meadical services to Singapore born Singaporeans!
Temasek profits should be paid to all Singapore born Singaporeans
COE and ERP charges should be used to provide free public transport to Singapore born Singaporeans
Allow Singapore born Singaporeans to own 2 HDB flats! PRs can only buy or rent from them. This immediately gives most of the people a residue income. Then the FT policy can be tolerated
 

IR123

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Loyal
The proceeds from Casino entrance fee should be used to provide real meadical services to Singapore born Singaporeans!
Temasek profits should be paid to all Singapore born Singaporeans
COE and ERP charges should be used to provide free public transport to Singapore born Singaporeans
Allow Singapore born Singaporeans to own 2 HDB flats! PRs can only buy or rent from them. This immediately gives most of the people a residue income. Then the FT policy can be tolerated

Don't get me wrong. I am all for using COE, ERP, Temasek profilts and two-flats policy for Singaporeans. But there are burdens to Singaporeans. Where will the money come from?

We should also replace the GST with a FT tax since they come in and enjoy jobs, don't do NS, buy properties and make the place overcrowded for the rest of us. I propose we tax them 10%.
 
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IR123

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Loyal
I don't agree with cheap pigeonholes

Once you give the peasants cheap houses, they will be eye-ing to profit from the 1st sale

Then they will amass their money to move to Australia or Canada, countries that likes Chinese peasants

Why be so nice to these disloyal dogs?


In the spirit of today's Singaporean where self comes first, I agree with you absolutely.
 

Forvendet

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Loyal
For those who can afford only one or can't even afford one flat, allowing them to buy two flats is meaningless. For those who can afford more than one, there're already ways to do it. The GMS case for example, it's obvious that he owned two flats in Singapore, one under his name and one under his mother's name, which will be his anyway by inheritance when his mother passes on. Therefore he could rent or sell one for income or profit. He probably has another flat (or maybe even condo or house) in HK with his wife.
 

IR123

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Loyal
For those who can afford only one or can't even afford one flat, allowing them to buy two flats is meaningless. For those who can afford more than one, there're already ways to do it. The GMS case for example, it's obvious that he owned two flats in Singapore, one under his name and one under his mother's name, which will be his anyway by inheritance when his mother passes on. Therefore he could rent or sell one for income or profit. He probably has another flat (or maybe even condo or house) in HK with his wife.

Why is it 'obvious'? The 'maybe' is conjectural.

You should not use suppositions to define a concrete position. A tentative one perhaps but unfair to define a definitive one using just assumptions.
 

Forvendet

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It's not conjectural. You must have missed some earlier postings by the captain himself. He posted himself that after selling his flat, he's living with his mother when in Singapore or with his wife when in HK.
 

IR123

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It's not conjectural. You must have missed some earlier postings by the captain himself. He posted himself that after selling his flat, he's living with his mother when in Singapore or with his wife when in HK.

Okay, point taken.
 

unicando

Alfrescian
Loyal
Unfortunately, Mah is correct. The housing markets of resale, private and HDB new flats are so intertwined now it will be impossible to disentangle them. It's like the economy and stock markets - if you believe in price info is the determinant of supply and demand, it is inevitable that fiddling with one side will affect another side. Why do you think Mah up till now is unable to bring down prices even after all his cooling measures? He's only doing it for show and psychology ahead of the GE. People who really know dont believe him.

hmm...to be fair need to maintain the current hdb system...to make hdb flat affortable juz introduce new EL (entry level) hdb flat option...this type of new 3/4 room hdb low price flat is different from BTO/DBSS in: (1) 49 yr lease with an option to extend the lease later on depending on the needs (2) non-investment grade (3) no sub-letting (4) only for citizen and the male partner must have served ns (5) only for 1st time buyer (6) buy/sell direct thru hdb not resale mkt, (7) no carpark lot option...
 

Bigfuck

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Since when have they been transparent. Saying that they do not follow western democracy as a convenient excuse and showing you figures that do not follow a consistent train of thought of how people can assess in a transparent and accountable standard is a joke. Then arguing like a 5 year old boy that everything shown is transparent and that the whole world outside the establishment takes everything out of context shows we have an alien establishment speaking an alien language. Thus Singaporeans should elect a goverment run by Singaporeans and not aliens. The alien establishment has made it clear they are aliens by say things all the time with " Singaporeans should...." or "Singaporeans need to..." and "it would be foolish for Singaporeans...." We need Singaporeans in parliament, not aliens.
 
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