Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

NaturalAristocratNoHeart said:

You're weird. If you can't explain what you'd written, why did you write them in the first place as though you were an authority on them?

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PAP policies have been around for decades. PAP stands for elections in Singapore. Singapore people vote them in as majority government. PAP wins 70% of the votes.


Which part of the above do you not understand when I say that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people? If the people do not agree with and do not want the policies of the PAP then why did they give PAP 70% of the vote?

What is there to explain? You want me to explain how Singaporeans think? Why Singaporeans think what they think? Why Singaporeans want the policies of the PAP?

Sorry man that one you have to ask a Singaporean preferably the ones in the 70% majority.

But it is a no brainer to conclude that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people. Unless you are trying to say that for some weird and stupid reason the Singaporean people do not want the PAP policies but yet vote for them? That is totally illogical right?

nayr69sg said:

PAP policies have been around for decades. PAP stands for elections in Singapore. Singapore people vote them in as majority government. PAP wins 70% of the votes.


Which part of the above do you not understand when I say that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people? If the people do not agree with and do not want the policies of the PAP then why did they give PAP 70% of the vote?

What is there to explain? You want me to explain how Singaporeans think? Why Singaporeans think what they think? Why Singaporeans want the policies of the PAP?

Sorry man that one you have to ask a Singaporean preferably the ones in the 70% majority.

But it is a no brainer to conclude that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people. Unless you are trying to say that for some weird and stupid reason the Singaporean people do not want the PAP policies but yet vote for them? That is totally illogical right?

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Do you really believe that a sitting PM is willing to give up power when he controls the Election Department?

nayr69sg said:

See Election results in Singapore.

Me Canadian cannot explain lah. Ask the Singaporeans how and why. They are the ones that tell the world this.

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Rigged election.
Where can an Election Department predict with 100 percent accuracy the outcome with a sampling poll?
Why PM wants to control Election Department? How can election be fair when the sitting PM runs it?

Only sinkees will not ask these questions.

I used to think that Elections were rigged.

But then I started having more interaction with the man on the street. And I realized that so many of them were PAP supporters. They are not discerning and very gullible.

I suggest you try asking the man on the street a simple question. Is the increase in GST from 5% to 7% a 2% increase only? And see what answer you get.

You can also do some grassroots volunteer work and see what you think about the man on the street.

My personal experience opened my eyes to what the average Singaporean is like. And they are mostly PAP supporters at the end of the day. They will kpkb complain and all that but at the end still say PAP is the best option.

Seriously, those of you here do not belong to the man on the street category. You are in the 30% ( which is not a small group really). And the friends you have also tend to be in the 30%. But you are in the minority.

When I learned this for myself I decided there was no point in trying to help people like that. The people want the PAP for some reason. And trust me it is not a rigged election as unbelievable as you think it might be.

nayr69sg said:

Which part of the above do you not understand when I say that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people?

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Refer to post #695 and they're reproduced below:

Please explain how and why the following policies implemented by PAP are in line with the wishes of Sinkies:

- costs of owning a 99-year lease HDB flat have been on the rise
- age of withdrawal of CPF funds has been raised
- CPF's minimum sum is being raised every few years
- compulsory MediShield Life for Sinkies, be they in the country or outside of it

nayr69sg said:

Unless you are trying to say that for some weird and stupid reason the Singaporean people do not want the PAP policies but yet vote for them? That is totally illogical right?

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Haven't you heard of the term "daft Sinkies"?

NaturalAristocratNoHeart said:

Refer to post #695 and they're reproduced below:

Please explain how and why the following policies implemented by PAP are in line with the wishes of Sinkies:

- costs of owning a 99-year lease HDB flat have been on the rise
- age of withdrawal of CPF funds has been raised
- CPF's minimum sum is being raised every few years
- compulsory MediShield Life for Sinkies, be they in the country or outside of it



Haven't you heard of the term "daft Sinkies"?

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Yes so I guess your answer to the above is daft Sinkies. That I also agree.

nayr69sg said:

I used to think that Elections were rigged.

But then I started having more interaction with the man on the street. And I realized that so many of them were PAP supporters. They are not discerning and very gullible.

I suggest you try asking the man on the street a simple question. Is the increase in GST from 5% to 7% a 2% increase only? And see what answer you get.

You can also do some grassroots volunteer work and see what you think about the man on the street.

My personal experience opened my eyes to what the average Singaporean is like. And they are mostly PAP supporters at the end of the day. They will kpkb complain and all that but at the end still say PAP is the best option.

Seriously, those of you here do not belong to the man on the street category. You are in the 30% ( which is not a small group really). And the friends you have also tend to be in the 30%. But you are in the minority.

When I learned this for myself I decided there was no point in trying to help people like that. The people want the PAP for some reason. And trust me it is not a rigged election as unbelievable as you think it might be.

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Whether it is rigged or not, it is hard to know. But that the Elections Department reports to the PM is sufficient to suggest that elections here are not fair and is subjected to manipulation.

The government doesn't trust the people to vote for them, that's why despite the 'support', they still do not dare to have an independent election body.

It's not rigged in the legal sense. It's so heavily against the opposition by law, rules and conduct and clear misappropriation of state resources that it never be a level playing ground by any means. When Mao controlled China which led to the death of 40 million people, surely the vast majority were not dumb. When Saddam held elections he regularly got circa 97% of the votes. No body of society has dumb people in the main. And he was from a minority sect. The PAP is led by a Hakka who knows how to subjugate the major groups. And Mandarin is not even the mother tongue of 99.5% of the people. Yet the Cantonese HKongers and Taiwanese Hokkein Nangs as well as the American with their English do more business with China without sacrificing their culture and mother tongue. Note the similarities of countries run by despots. Only difference is that we are the "Disneyland with the death sentence".

The only way to address this sort of oppression is to target the people behind the oppression and not ridicule the oppressed. It is no skin of the oppressors if you ridicule the victims. The elderly heavily voted for the PAP because of the pioneer generation package. They have suffered enough and are on their last leg. Repeatedly calling out these and other vulnerable people is not morally right.

scroobal said:

It's not rigged in the legal sense. It's so heavily against the opposition by law, rules and conduct and clear misappropriation of state resources that it never be a level playing ground by any means. When Mao controlled China which led to the death of 40 million people, surely the vast majority were not dumb. When Saddam held elections he regularly got circa 97% of the votes. No body of society has dumb people in the main. And he was from a minority sect. The PAP is led by a Hakka who knows how to subjugate the major groups. And Mandarin is not even the mother tongue of 99.5% of the people. Yet the Cantonese HKongers and Taiwanese Hokkein Nangs as well as the American with their English do more business with China without sacrificing their culture and mother tongue. Note the similarities of countries run by despots. Only difference is that we are the "Disneyland with the death sentence".

The only way to address this sort of oppression is to target the people behind the oppression and not ridicule the oppressed. It is no skin of the oppressors if you ridicule the victims. The elderly heavily voted for the PAP because of the pioneer generation package. They have suffered enough and are on their last leg. Repeatedly calling out these and other vulnerable people is not morally right.

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I respectfully disagree with your point of view. To compare Lee Hsien Loong to Mao ZeDong and Saddam Hussein is giving Lee Hsien Loong and gang way too much credit. LKY yes. But he is gone. GONE.

Granted it is not a level playing field. The odds are stacked against the opposition for sure. But we all know who we are who have voted for the opposition. Has anything untoward happened to those of us who have voted for the opposition? It is a free election at the end of the day.

The PAP policies are clear for all to see. CPF minimum sum keeps going up. COE. Health care. Property prices. Immigration. FTs.

It is a free vote. The people can choose at the ballot booths. The majority continue to choose PAP.

Say what you want nobody is forcing people to vote PAP at the polling stations. Nobody is threatening to kill those who vote the opposition.

I strongly recommend those who think the PAP is controlling everybody to first do some volunteer work and get to know the man on the street. They are strong PAP supporters. They are simple folk with simple ideas and very very short term goals in life. Eg can smoke now smoke lah. Can drink beer now drink lah. Later who cares? Tomorrow who cares?

If you have served NS with hokkien peng you will understand what I mean.

Hi guys,

I've been a long-time follower of this thread, from the time before I left Singapore till now - 3 years after moving here in Melbourne, without any posting. Guess I need some help here, and hence this post.

We sold off our HDB in 2012, in preparation of our move in 2013, but thanks to 1) backside itchy, 2) fear of the possibility of not able to make it in Melbourne and 3) to appease our parents that we still have some "connection" with SG, we purchased an exec condo during launch.

We moved here in July 2013 and within five months, I managed to get a job with the AU branch of the company I was working for before I quit SG, thanks to some help from a couple of ex-Singaporeans and an ex-German. As bros here can testify, with a good paying job, life is comfortable here and kids and wife are happy.

My intention from day 1 when I considered migration was to not let my son serve NS. When we left, he was just short of his 8th birthday and now he's going to be 11 next week. Taking the advice from this thread, and being ultra kiasu, I did not even renew his passport when it expired in Jan this year. My aim is to follow the procedures listed out here when he reaches ages 13 and 16.5.

(To be continued)

Hi guys,

I've been a long-time follower of this thread, from the time before I left Singapore till now - 3 years after moving here in Melbourne, without any posting. I've always appreciated the useful information that can be found here and I have followed it quite closely. However, I need some help that I have not found any precedence, and hence this post.

We sold off our HDB in 2012, in preparation of our move in 2013, but thanks to 1) backside itchy, 2) fear of the possibility of not able to make it in Melbourne and 3) to appease our parents that we still have some "connection" with SG, we purchased an exec condo during launch.

We moved here in July 2013 and within five months, I managed to get a job with the AU branch of the company I was working for before I quit SG, thanks to some help from a couple of ex-Singaporeans and an ex-German. As bros here can testify, with a good paying job, life is comfortable here and kids and wife are happy.

My intention from day 1 when I considered migration was to not let my son serve NS. When we left, he was just short of his 8th birthday and now he's going to be 11 next week. Taking the advice from this thread, and being ultra kiasu, I did not even renew his passport when it expired in Jan this year. My aim is to follow the procedures listed out here when he reaches ages 13 and 16.5.

(To be continued)

However, my problem now is that the EC has just TOP-ed earlier this year, and we have changed our address on our IC to the EC address (all along, we kept our IC address to our parents' address). Wife had been quite pekcek about the existence of this EC, but I told her that, at that point of time, that was our best option (we would not have afforded a private condo) and we should try not to think about it. I know bro axe168 and others have stated earlier that they just left their HDB as is, and sold off when the MOP is fulfilled. However, in my mind, I have the following concerns:

1. When we apply for exit permit in Aug 2018, we'll need to provide our contact details. I guess we would need to provide our AU address to MINDEF. This would be different from the address maintained in our IC. This would reveal that we are not living in the EC and from Chapter 99A relating to EC, this is an offence that can allow PAP to seize the property. When they do seize the property, do we not get a single cent back? Or it is sold in the open market? I reckon this would be similar to the case where husband and wife divorce 2 years into their marriage and both want to sell the EC even though MOP has not been fulfilled.

2. I reckon we will not be able to convince MINDEF that we have been overseas if our IC address is maintained in the SG address. Do they check your IC when you (father or mother) send a mail to request for exit permit? They might not also approve the exit permit if we maintain the SG address.

My worst case planning is to renounce the SG citizenship when I have the AU citizenship and make a declaration to HDB for the property to be returned to HDB/developer. I know I will risk losing some money (some say it's the initial 20% deposit, but I doubt so because the EC has TOP-ed, but I cannot be sure), but that's better than my son having to be a defaulter or having to return to serve NS, which is the very reason why I chose to uproot the family in the first place.

(Continued)

Thanks for any suggestions/help that you can provide me with!


Cheers!
Caged

I am assuming that you went to Australia as a migrating family (PR approval) and not on work permit or company transfer. If this is case, then apply to Mindef with a copy of the passport page that shows the date of first entry. You must also express that OZ is your new home.

Based on the past, Mindef and HDB do not match data. Most migrants have left their last Singapore address in their NRIC. Others have used the address of relatives.

As to your EC, it may come a problem when you intend to sell it. Some have returned or at least one partner has returned back to Singapore for 2 years to meet the requirements for sale. Some have followed the route that Axe took. Contact a seasoned HDB/EC real estate person to get clarification for condition of sale just in case that condition has removed or modified.

caged10 said:

(Continued)

Thanks for any suggestions/help that you can provide me with!


Cheers!
Caged

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nayr69sg said:

Which part of the above do you not understand when I say that PAP policies are in line with the wishes of the people?

Click to expand...

Please explain how the below policies of the PAP are in line with the wishes of the people:

- costs of owning a 99-year lease HDB flat have been on the rise
- age of withdrawal of CPF funds has been raised
- CPF's minimum sum is being raised every few years
- compulsory MediShield Life for Sinkies, be they in the country or outside of it

nayr69sg said:

I respectfully disagree with your point of view. To compare Lee Hsien Loong to Mao ZeDong and Saddam Hussein is giving Lee Hsien Loong and gang way too much credit. LKY yes. But he is gone. GONE.

Granted it is not a level playing field. The odds are stacked against the opposition for sure. But we all know who we are who have voted for the opposition. Has anything untoward happened to those of us who have voted for the opposition? It is a free election at the end of the day.

The PAP policies are clear for all to see. CPF minimum sum keeps going up. COE. Health care. Property prices. Immigration. FTs.

It is a free vote. The people can choose at the ballot booths. The majority continue to choose PAP.

Say what you want nobody is forcing people to vote PAP at the polling stations. Nobody is threatening to kill those who vote the opposition.

I strongly recommend those who think the PAP is controlling everybody to first do some volunteer work and get to know the man on the street. They are strong PAP supporters. They are simple folk with simple ideas and very very short term goals in life. Eg can smoke now smoke lah. Can drink beer now drink lah. Later who cares? Tomorrow who cares?

If you have served NS with hokkien peng you will understand what I mean.

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I have no doubt that you reading of the ground is valid but I am not sure that the last election was won fairly.

Why are you so sure that the PAP does not rig the election? If the PAP is so sure of its popularity with sinkees, then the Election Department should be independent and reports only to Parliament. But the PM won't do it for obvious reason.

winnipegjets said:

I have no doubt that you reading of the ground is valid but I am not sure that the last election was won fairly.

Why are you so sure that the PAP does not rig the election? If the PAP is so sure of its popularity with sinkees, then the Election Department should be independent and reports only to Parliament. But the PM won't do it for obvious reason.

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The PAP is not sure of its popularity with sinkies. That's why the PM won't let go of the Election Department.

I am pretty sure the PAP get pleasantly surprised when they get all those big wins at the elections despite all the shitty policies they shove down the people's throats all in the name of the economy.

The elections are not rigged in the sense that the votes are casted fairly ie no voter is forced to vote a certain way at the polling stations by threatening them etc. The votes cast are also not tampered. The counting is also done properly and reflects the true votes cast.

When you say an election is won "fairly" it involves too many variables eg the control of the media, use of public funds for partisan aims etc. That one we all know the PAP does not compete fairly.

But the election process as much as one man one vote come election day is true and legal. One reason why I know this is because a very close family member was once a returning officer for GEs in Singapore. He himself is not a PAP supporter. But he says that under his watch all the votes are correctly cast and counted. Yet everytime it is the PAP that wins. Which means the people really voted for the PAP.

This frustration upon learning the truth tears at your heart.

LKY himself soon realized that the people are daft and that for Singapore to survive in the future we could not just have the local dafts. Hence the immigration policies.

Please explain how the below policies of the PAP are in line with the wishes of the people:

- costs of owning a 99-year lease HDB flat have been on the rise --> The people do not like it. They complain alot about it. They kpkb. They bitch about it. But they continue to purchase high cost HDB flats and pay the mortgages. And they also continue to vote the PAP who cause the cost of owning HDB flats to rise to this level. Hence at the end you still have to say the people somewhat agree with the policy and support it as they support the architects of the policy
- age of withdrawal of CPF funds has been raised --> The people do not like it. They complain alot about it. They kpkb. They bitch about it. But they continue to live and work in Singapore an contribute to CPF and Medisave. Yes it is compulsory. They also continue to vote the PAP who are the ruling government and the ones who continue to raise the age requirement for withdrawal of CPF every few years. Hence at the end you still have to say the people somewhat agree with the policy and support it as they support the architects of the policy.
- CPF's minimum sum is being raised every few years --> see above
- compulsory MediShield Life for Sinkies, be they in the country or outside of it --> This one is a new policy. I have asked Singaporeans and they seem to support this pretty much. Very little unhappiness about this. Only the ones who are overseas like myself have issues with it. But you can choose to renounce your Singapore citizenship and be free from this requirement. So it is not a big issue.

nayr69sg said:

Please explain how the below policies of the PAP are in line with the wishes of the people:

- costs of owning a 99-year lease HDB flat have been on the rise --> The people do not like it. They complain alot about it. They kpkb. They bitch about it. But they continue to purchase high cost HDB flats and pay the mortgages. And they also continue to vote the PAP who cause the cost of owning HDB flats to rise to this level. Hence at the end you still have to say the people somewhat agree with the policy and support it as they support the architects of the policy

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Sinkees cannot out of the box lah. What choice do sinkees have? Private property is so much higher. Of course, if sinkees think out of the box, they would be much better off renting.
I don't think sinkees agree but have to accept the cards dealt to them.

- age of withdrawal of CPF funds has been raised --> The people do not like it. They complain alot about it. They kpkb. They bitch about it. But they continue to live and work in Singapore an contribute to CPF and Medisave. Yes it is compulsory. They also continue to vote the PAP who are the ruling government and the ones who continue to raise the age requirement for withdrawal of CPF every few years. Hence at the end you still have to say the people somewhat agree with the policy and support it as they support the architects of the policy.

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I think the last election was rigged. That's why the support count for the PAP was so high. With so many issues against them, the PAP used the election result to put out the fires.
It is time the opposition challenge the credibility of the election result.

- CPF's minimum sum is being raised every few years --> see above
- compulsory MediShield Life for Sinkies, be they in the country or outside of it --> This one is a new policy. I have asked Singaporeans and they seem to support this pretty much. Very little unhappiness about this. Only the ones who are overseas like myself have issues with it. But you can choose to renounce your Singapore citizenship and be free from this requirement. So it is not a big issue.

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Sinkees are pretty stupid in general. They are being cheated in so many ways and they still do not know it.
For eg. CPF returns ...why settle for 2.5 pct return when the government is reaping 7 pct return?
Likewise on housing ...we have the world's most expensive public housing. It is only affordable because our retirement savings are being used to pay for it.

70 pct of sinkees are clueless on the major issues. Opposition needs to educate them year round, not only for 8 days during the election period.

nayr69sg said:

I am pretty sure the PAP get pleasantly surprised when they get all those big wins at the elections despite all the shitty policies they shove down the people's throats all in the name of the economy.

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The results were engineered to end the burning issues.
Elections Department can predict with 100 percent certainty the out come of the result with a sampling poll. Where can this be possible?
If we have a free press, there would be calls for electoral fraud.

Why are exit poll conducted by third parties not allowed in sinkapore? PAP doesn't want it because then they can't control the result.

The elections are not rigged in the sense that the votes are casted fairly ie no voter is forced to vote a certain way at the polling stations by threatening them etc. The votes cast are also not tampered. The counting is also done properly and reflects the true votes cast.

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You speak like you know the process inside out.
The dirty work is in the background. How do you know that there are no switch ballot boxes?
Opposition should educate sinkees on why the elections in sinkapore are susceptible to fraud and demand that international observers be brought in and let a third party run the elections.

But the election process as much as one man one vote come election day is true and legal. One reason why I know this is because a very close family member was once a returning officer for GEs in Singapore. He himself is not a PAP supporter. But he says that under his watch all the votes are correctly cast and counted. Yet everytime it is the PAP that wins. Which means the people really voted for the PAP.

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The last election was rigged. Opposition rallies were well attended and there were so many issues that the PAP was trying to put out the fires. The ground was ripe for a surge by the opposition. Instead, the outcome was a total surprise. And then there was this sampling poll bs.