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Thread: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

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    Default Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    I thought in view of the interest expressed, it might be pertinent to put couple of things together for those who are planning to migrate and seek a new life. You will never find anything with clarity with the autocratic PAP and I do not want to see the Elites benefiting and the rest making the wrong decision.

    This thread is not about migrating. This is for those who have made the decision and looking for help with some aspects. Others are welcome to throw in their view and experiences

    Do note that things change over time.

    NS Obligations

    Those with boy migrating and who leave these shores before their boys reach the age of 11 yrs are not obliged to do NS but have to follow the necessary procedures to get exemption. Passports expire at the age of 11 and that should be an indicator.

    Once you have left, do not renew the passport, apply for NRIC etc as one is deemed to enjoyed the privileges of citizenship and NS become mandatory.

    At age 13, apply to CMPB for exit visa stating that your family has migrated and the kids is enrolled in a school in the new country. No bond is required. CMPB uses an outsourced agency to handle call centre matters and they have no clue about migrant cases. Go directly to CMPB.

    At age 16.5, you need to register for NS ( an interesting term as you are actually seeking deferment). You can do it by post to CMPB again citing that you have migrated, acquired new citizenship and the kids is schooling. You will be given deferment until the age of 21 where the kid must decide if they want to hold on their Singapore citizenship. If they do, than NS must be served. If not, exmeption for ever.

    All Singaporeans, male and female cannot renounce their citizenship until age 21, and if they have acquired new citizenship, they will be dual citizens.

    In the meantime, one can travel in and out of Singapore without bond and using the passport of their new country.

    Those who left after 11 years, unfortunately are obliged to serve.

    Note: If your child's Singapore passport expires at the age of 11 and the family is not eligible for new citizenship, the kid will not be able to travel. Do resist the pain of not visiting Singapore unless you want him to serve NS. Do not let friends and extended family members make decisions for your kids.

    Whatever it is, do be careful so that your kid can travel in and out of Singapore when he grows up and not be banned.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    HDB Issues

    Naturally those who are migrating are quite apprehensive about their new country and as an insurance tend to hold onto their HDB flat, downsize or even buy one in case they have to return.

    HDB does not allow sale to take place unless you have been residing ( not only owning but physically residing) in the flat for a certain period prior to sale. The last I heard is 2 years. I have known familes that had to return temporarily for 2 years in order to sell their flat. I also know that these families have written to their MPs citing hardship but have been turned down. I know of only one case that was given exemption.

    Of course, others find ways to avoid this by claiming that they have been residing prior to sale or do not rent out at all and except mails wacthed over by relatives.

    A better way is to buy private property such as condo which I know is more expensive. That way, if you need cash in your new country, you can liquidate your asset here quickly. Alternatively, place it in a more liquid asset.

    HDB generally does not allow non-citizens and those who have given up PR in Singapore to hold on to HDB flats. They will however give you time to sell if your appeal fails but the minimum residency requirement will likely hold. Parents who have given up their citizenship but who have dual citizenship kids can use that angle to hold on citing things like the kid can stay there during NS if NS is required.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    CPF

    With the low return on CPF in recent years and the rising value of property in developed countries (countries of destination for migrants), it may be better to withdraw. No better time to invest as property is going to rebound after the recent crisis.

    In this case, one has to give up their Singapore citizenship and renunciation will only be allowed by showing the new country's documents. 6 weeks, deal with ICA directly, once that is done, CPF withdrawal is real quick 0- TT to your account in your new country. All can be done by email and mail for both organisation. No need to step into Singapore.

    There is also the fear that CPF rules that currently apply to Malaysians may apply to to other foreigners even though there are no indications from the press or other sources. Malaysians cannot withdraw CPF until retirment age.

    The biggest issue for most people however is that one needs to surrender their Singapore citizenship to get their CPF.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    ..Malaysians cannot withdraw CPF until retirment age.
    Yes and no, some changes after lobby across causeway awhile back...take your pick here (excerpt from CPF's mumbo jumbo):

    You may withdraw your CPF in full if you satisfy all the following conditions:

    You are a Malaysian citizen and have left Singapore permanently to reside in West Malaysia;
    You do not hold a valid Singapore Work Permit/Employment Pass or have renounced your Singapore Permanent Residence; and You are:

    a) 55 years old or above, or

    b) below 55 years old but above 50 and have not worked in Singapore in the two years before your application, or

    c) physically or mentally incapacitated from ever continuing in any employment or found to be of unsound mind

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    CPF

    The biggest issue for most people however is that one needs to surrender their Singapore citizenship to get their CPF.

    Thanks mate. You do better than the .gov.sg webshits.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    ... Malaysians cannot withdraw CPF until retirment age. ...
    east msians can take all cpf wif dem once dey throw back their pr n balik kampung 4 gd ... no nid 2 wait until retirement age ...

    ... juz another 3.5224˘ worth ... (gst 7%, inflation 8% (2008) n tariff 21% (2008), 23.32% (2010), 9.8%(2011) incl.) ...
    fr n original, humble 2˘ ... u now got a whopping 3.5224˘ worth fr me! ...
    tis value is fully guaranteed (wun morning say dun guarantee & @ nite say guarantee) ...
    ...


    world cup 2014 chiobu n colorful fans updated: 2day
    octopus regina makes world cup 2014 predictions updated: 25jun

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Quote Originally Posted by po2wq View Post
    east msians can take all cpf wif dem once dey throw back their pr n balik kampung 4 gd ... no nid 2 wait until retirement age ...
    Yep. Thanks

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Thanks Bro

    Quote Originally Posted by yinyang View Post
    Yes and no, some changes after lobby across causeway awhile back...take your pick here (excerpt from CPF's mumbo jumbo):

    You may withdraw your CPF in full if you satisfy all the following conditions:

    You are a Malaysian citizen and have left Singapore permanently to reside in West Malaysia;
    You do not hold a valid Singapore Work Permit/Employment Pass or have renounced your Singapore Permanent Residence; and You are:

    a) 55 years old or above, or

    b) below 55 years old but above 50 and have not worked in Singapore in the two years before your application, or

    c) physically or mentally incapacitated from ever continuing in any employment or found to be of unsound mind

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    We need to keep this going as these guys keeping moving the goalposts all the time. Hope others can contribute as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by neddy View Post
    Thanks mate. You do better than the .gov.sg webshits.
    Last edited by scroobal; 12-05-2009 at 07:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Dual Citizenship

    With many countries moving towards retaining talent, previous restrictions on holding more than one citizenship by a number of governments around the world has been set aside.

    Australia which prior to April 2002, had it in law where Dual Citizenship was explicitly prohibited now allows it and they have gone one step further by allowing ex-citizens to re-apply their citizenship which they previously renounced.

    There is no law in Singapore that prohibits dual citizenship. The law however provides the govt to take it take it away from you for reasons best known to them. No one has been prosecuted for having dual citizenship. Since there is no law prohibiting it, there is no law allowing for punishment.

    If you have acquired a new citizenship from a new country and don't need to take out your CPF, you may consider holding on to it. Your options are certainly better.

    If you have any doubts visit ICA personally bringing your new country's documents with you. I know that ICA will not give you an answer over the phone without citing documents. There may be instance where you have a criminal record etc, Singapore might take the opportunity to get rid of you. Tan Wah Piow case comes to mind. As Tan Wah Piow did not acquire British citizenship and held on to his Singapore citizenship, Jayakumar and company enacted new legislation. I understand that this legislation has been removed.

    Do we mindful not to make false declarations.

    As always keep up with the times.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Got a query in the mail

    Here is the reply.

    If your son left singapore with the family before reaching the age of 11 and the passport has not been renewed, then there should not be any issues. You would not need to apply for exit permit without bond when he reaches 13. Those who have not done so and their kids are now aged 14, 15, 16 etc can still apply for the exit permit.

    CMPB will require your physical address as all documents will come by posts.

    Bear in mind - no bond. Their call centre has no clue including the supervisors. The bond applies those kids leaving Singapore to school overseas and nothing to do with migration. Deal directly with CMPB.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    NS Obligation
    Please so note that when querying CMPB by email do tell them that you have migrated and that your son's age at time of departure. If not the bond will come in and the wrong advice will be given.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Note error marked in bold and underlined in the previous post below. The word "not" should be deleted as you require exit permit.

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    Got a query in the mail

    Here is the reply.

    If your son left singapore with the family before reaching the age of 11 and the passport has not been renewed, then there should not be any issues. You would not need to apply for exit permit without bond when he reaches 13. Those who have not done so and their kids are now aged 14, 15, 16 etc can still apply for the exit permit.

    CMPB will require your physical address as all documents will come by posts.

    Bear in mind - no bond. Their call centre has no clue including the supervisors. The bond applies those kids leaving Singapore to school overseas and nothing to do with migration. Deal directly with CMPB.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Hi brother [scroobal],
    I commend and compliment you for what you have done, which I consider public service.
    I am relaying a question from a third party.
    The parent is a SG citizen. His children were born in a foreign jurisdiction which allows dual citizenship. The SG parent applied for SG citizenship for his children. I assume male and female children has to affirm or renouce SG citizenship when each attains the age of 21. However, without reading the legislation, I believe that the male child may have to apply to defer NS until age 21 when he decides to affirm or renouce, unless the legislation changes.
    My personal situation is different, because I believe that my wife may apply for the citizenship of her country, for our children, which make them eligible for the European Union passport, to give them an opportunity to work in Europe [because Canada allows dual citizenship].
    I was amazed that when she returned "home" for a visit several seversl years ago, the clinic at the city where she was born, still have her medical records.
    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    I actually know of case involving the same situation.

    As the kids were born overseas and they applied and got SGP citizenship, the males will be considered for NS. The good news is they can seek exemption in the same manner as singapore males migrating before the age of 11.

    Here are the steps:

    1. Email CMPB and get the fmaily to state very clearly the following
    a. the family migrated, kids born overseas, they hold dual citizenship
    b. mention that it will be their new home and won't be making SGP their home

    CMPB will usually ask date of departure of parents when they migrated, BC, citizenship of new country etc

    They following will be the outcome
    - exit permit will be given if they reached age 13 without bond until age 16.9
    - at age 16.5 they need to register for NS but you are actually seeking deferment which will be given until 21 when the kids needs to decide what he wants to do.

    Remember no bond is required. CMPB staff tend to get this wrong. Bond is meant for those studying abroad, migrated after age 13 etc.

    If the above is done, no problem travelling in and out using either passports. No problem for the male kids for the rest of the life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie9 View Post
    Hi brother [scroobal],
    I commend and compliment you for what you have done, which I consider public service.
    I am relaying a question from a third party.
    The parent is a SG citizen. His children were born in a foreign jurisdiction which allows dual citizenship. The SG parent applied for SG citizenship for his children. I assume male and female children has to affirm or renouce SG citizenship when each attains the age of 21. However, without reading the legislation, I believe that the male child may have to apply to defer NS until age 21 when he decides to affirm or renouce, unless the legislation changes.
    My personal situation is different, because I believe that my wife may apply for the citizenship of her country, for our children, which make them eligible for the European Union passport, to give them an opportunity to work in Europe [because Canada allows dual citizenship].
    I was amazed that when she returned "home" for a visit several seversl years ago, the clinic at the city where she was born, still have her medical records.
    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Thank you for the prompt response.
    Does the SG govt insists that the child upon attaining 21, must renounce the SG citizenship?
    What if the child, now adult, does not do so?
    What if the male child does receive exemption or deferment from NS, does not renounce SG citizenship, then to take it further, applies for a SG passport [sounds extreme]?
    I believe it may be possible for a female born overseas of SG parent (or least one of the parents) to acquire a SG passport, while continuing to be a citizen, say of USA or Canada.
    What is the likelihood, simply for evaluating the different scenarios, that a child applied and did become a SG citizen (by applying from overseas, born overseas with at least one SG citizen parent), and also obtained citizenship from a European country. Citizenship from 3 countries. If the SG govt becomes aware, it is likely that the SG govt may insist on the individual renouce the SG citizenship at age 21.

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    I actually know of case involving the same situation.

    As the kids were born overseas and they applied and got SGP citizenship, the males will be considered for NS. The good news is they can seek exemption in the same manner as singapore males migrating before the age of 11.

    Here are the steps:

    1. Email CMPB and get the fmaily to state very clearly the following
    a. the family migrated, kids born overseas, they hold dual citizenship
    b. mention that it will be their new home and won't be making SGP their home

    CMPB will usually ask date of departure of parents when they migrated, BC, citizenship of new country etc

    They following will be the outcome
    - exit permit will be given if they reached age 13 without bond until age 16.9
    - at age 16.5 they need to register for NS but you are actually seeking deferment which will be given until 21 when the kids needs to decide what he wants to do.

    Remember no bond is required. CMPB staff tend to get this wrong. Bond is meant for those studying abroad, migrated after age 13 etc.

    If the above is done, no problem travelling in and out using either passports. No problem for the male kids for the rest of the life.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    The choice lies with the kid who will be an adult at 21. He can decide to do NS and retain the SG citizenship. This is where the greyness come in. Will he be forced to renounce the new country's citizenship if he does NS and retain SG Citizenship. I understand this was one of the factors on dual citizenship that caused it to surface as a cabinet issue.

    By the way, the Singapore law actually allows the Government not to accept renunciation of Singapore citizenship. I suppose it applies to those who failed to follow appropriate NS procedures and those facing other criminal matters and are hoping avoid jurisdictional issues.

    I got to say the Singapore females are the luckiest, best of both worlds as there is no law or circumstance to enforce it.

    As to the last scenario, my sense is that they are trying to avoid a brain drain and any remaining attachment to Singapore will be left alone. With the hope that they might return or the retirement funds might come in. However if they they stand on a stage and badmouth this government, then the citizenship will be revoked. Any way its madness to march away from something the rest of world are doing.

    Whether its dual or multiple, the operating principles remain the same. The exception will be Malaysia which has a long standing reciprocal arrangement similiar to distributing each other's newspapers etc. There might be other exceptions such as Taiwan etc.

    By the way, here is something that tells you their thoughts. Civil servants who return after a failed migration are taken back and only condition is to write a nice article on what drew them back in the Min or Dept Newletter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie9 View Post
    Thank you for the prompt response.
    Does the SG govt insists that the child upon attaining 21, must renounce the SG citizenship?
    What if the child, now adult, does not do so?
    What if the male child does receive exemption or deferment from NS, does not renounce SG citizenship, then to take it further, applies for a SG passport [sounds extreme]?
    I believe it may be possible for a female born overseas of SG parent (or least one of the parents) to acquire a SG passport, while continuing to be a citizen, say of USA or Canada.
    What is the likelihood, simply for evaluating the different scenarios, that a child applied and did become a SG citizen (by applying from overseas, born overseas with at least one SG citizen parent), and also obtained citizenship from a European country. Citizenship from 3 countries. If the SG govt becomes aware, it is likely that the SG govt may insist on the individual renouce the SG citizenship at age 21.
    Last edited by scroobal; 14-05-2009 at 04:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    What if a S'porean married a Filipina in the Philippines, and they have
    a boy; born in Manila with Filipino citizenship. Is the boy liable for NS?

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Thank you for the response and info.
    It may appear that the civil service and/or the govt desire every nice letter to persuade would be emigrants to remain in SG and/or to remain with the civil service.
    I agree that a female SG citizen, and a female foreigner has the best of the available options. Perhaps, any SG citizen who has migrated should consider promptly applying for SG citizenship for their female child before the child's first birthday re: application for SG citizenship through descent (only one generation, that is that female child's future children is ineligible to apply for SG citizenship via that route).
    What happens if and when my old bones down the road, are unable to tolerate the minus 20 C in the winter. I served full-time NS, several reservist trg but not all, continuously applied for exit permit every year or every two years.

    Quote Originally Posted by scroobal View Post
    The choice lies with the kid who will be an adult at 21. He can decide to do NS and retain the SG citizenship. This is where the greyness come in. Will he be forced to renounce the new country's citizenship if he does NS and retain SG Citizenship. I understand this was one of the factors on dual citizenship that caused it to surface as a cabinet issue.

    By the way, the Singapore law actually allows the Government not to accept renunciation of Singapore citizenship. I suppose it applies to those who failed to follow appropriate NS procedures and those facing other criminal matters and are hoping avoid jurisdictional issues.

    I got to say the Singapore females are the luckiest, best of both worlds as there is no law or circumstance to enforce it.

    As to the last scenario, my sense is that they are trying to avoid a brain drain and any remaining attachment to Singapore will be left alone. With the hope that they might return or the retirement funds might come in. However if they they stand on a stage and badmouth this government, then the citizenship will be revoked. Any way its madness to march away from something the rest of world are doing.

    Whether its dual or multiple, the operating principles remain the same. The exception will be Malaysia which has a long standing reciprocal arrangement similiar to distributing each other's newspapers etc. There might be other exceptions such as Taiwan etc.

    By the way, here is something that tells you their thoughts. Civil servants who return after a failed migration are taken back and only condition is to write a nice article on what drew them back in the Min or Dept Newletter.

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    Default Re: Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

    Yes, I would encourage the Singapore female born overseas to do so. Many people from different nationalities do that when dual citizenship is allowed or not enforced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie9 View Post
    Thank you for the response and info.
    It may appear that the civil service and/or the govt desire every nice letter to persuade would be emigrants to remain in SG and/or to remain with the civil service.
    I agree that a female SG citizen, and a female foreigner has the best of the available options. Perhaps, any SG citizen who has migrated should consider promptly applying for SG citizenship for their female child before the child's first birthday re: application for SG citizenship through descent (only one generation, that is that female child's future children is ineligible to apply for SG citizenship via that route).
    Most people do that diligently, renewing the exit permit. During my reservist ICT, I had a chap that was a couple of years older in my outfit. He knew how to work NS to his advantage. He was in the F&B industry, worked in San Francisco and over time got placed in well known restaurants. He would come back after a few years and immediately pick up a job with one of the fancy restuarants. He was with Goodwood Hotel when he was doing ICT in my outfit. He would also recruit some of his reservist mates for his restaurant after sizing them up during ICT.

    His chosen vocation allowed him to have his cycle of overseas and local work and this managed to convince MINDEF to allow him to do 2 ICT per year to catch up. I am sure his resume looked really good having worked in many


    I served full-time NS, several reservist trg but not all, continuously applied for exit permit every year or every two years.

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