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Serious SAF Leopard 2 tanks vulnerable? Turkey losing Leo 2s in Syria in urban fighting

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[h=1]Daesh Terrorists Destroy Myth of Germany's Indestructible Leopard 2 Tank[/h]
[h=2]Daesh has identified a weak spot in Germany's legendary Leopard 2 battle tanks, and has destroyed ten of the machines used by the Turkish Army in northern Syria, the German newspaper Die Welt reported.[/h]
Battles in Afghanistan, Kosovo and elsewhere have earned Germany's Leopard 2 battle tank a reputation for being indestructible. In one case, Canadian forces managed to drive a Leopard through a massive Taliban bomb blast and survive. However, Turkish troops fighting the terrorist group Daesh in northern Syria have had a different experience. According to reports, Daesh fighters in the city of Al Bab have destroyed ten Leopard 2A4 battle tanks.
Searching for answers, some German bloggers have speculated that leadership failures or a lack of experience among Turkish troops may be to blame. However, the fundamental issue appears to be whether the 60 ton tanks are suitable for use in an urban environment, the German newspaper Die Welt reported on Thursday.

"The Leopard 2 basic concept comes from a time when the enemy was expected to attack from the front. This basic design applies internationally to the big combat tanks, even to the most modern Russian T-14 Armata," Die Welt wrote.
"The heavy-duty tracked vehicles are designed for a duel battle and have maximum protection in the frontal area as well as a small side angle. Since, for example, the Russian anti-tank missile Kornet can penetrate even 1.2-meter-thick armor, a tank's less-protected areas are relatively vulnerable."
"During the course of fighting in the Syrian town of al-Bath, the Turks' approximately 30-year-old Leopards were often shot in the rear and sometimes from the side with anti-tank weapons. There, the massive tracked vehicles are less protected. Soldiers agree that a battle in a city can't be compared with a duel on wide, undeveloped land, where tanks usually fight their targets from two or three kilometers away."
According to a report from the German-language magazine European Security and Technology, the Leopard tanks in service with the Turkish army are especially vulnerable because they don't have additional protection such as reactive armor, which reacts to and reduces a weapon's impact, or an active protection system (APS) to counterattack an incoming threat such as the Trophy APS used by the Israeli army.
Daesh have destroyed the Leopard tanks by firing anti-tank weapons at the turret, which caused the ammunition inside to explode, the magazine wrote.
However, while reactive armor and APS make tanks more resistant to attack, they also make the vehicles much heavier.
The German defense ministry told Die Welt that the newest version of the Leopard 2, the A7V, is currently being introduced to the German army and boasts higher protection compared to the 2A4, which is no longer in service with the Bundeswehr.

The newest Leopard 2A7, 20 of which were introduced to the Bundeswehr in 2014, reportedly has a special composite armor which includes layers of ceramic. However, the models produced so far don't have reactive armor, which was first installed in 1982 on Israeli tanks during Israel's war with Lebanon.
Singapore, which bought 96 Leopard 2A4 tanks between 2006 and 2009, has upgraded them with Advanced Modular Armor Protection (AMAP), a modular composite armor produced by the German firm IBD Deisenroth Engineering.
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© Wikipedia/ Vitaly V. Kuzmin
Russian Armata Tanks, Armored Vehicles to Become 'Smarter'

An example of a reactive armor system is the one fitted on Russia's 50-ton Armata T-14. These explosive reactive armor plates are comprised of "bricks" of explosive sandwiched between two metal plates, which force an incoming projectile to dissipate its impact over a larger volume of armor. Active protection systems include Raytheon's Quick Kill APS and Israel's Trophy APS, which uses radar antenna to track incoming rocket-propelled grenades and missiles, and deploys multiple explosively formed penetrators (EFP) to destroy them.

Russia's T-14 Armata battle tanks and T-15 Armata heavy infantry fighting vehicles (IFV) are fitted with the Afganit APS, which employs a combination of active phased antenna array radars and UV detectors to identify and track incoming projectiles, and mini-mortar systems which use fragmentation rounds to intercept and destroy incoming threats in mid-flight.
 

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[h=1]Reasons of Losses of Turkish Leopard 2A4 Tanks in Syria – Report[/h] 5132 817 27 Share697 2

6754 DonateThe Turkish Army has already lost at least 10 Leopard 2A4 tanks during their offensive on terrorists’ positions near the Syrian city of al-Bab.
TurkTank.jpg
Photo: arthaber.net

According to the recent report of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, the Saudi Armed Forces have lost about 20 Abrams М1A2S tanks in Yemen, the Zone Militaire information website reported. In its turn, the Turkish Army, which has been conducting the so-called Euphrates Shield operation in the north of Syria since August 2016, has faced with the same problem with the German-made Leopard 2A4 tanks.
So, according to information from social networks, the Turkish Forces have lost at least 10 Leopard 2A4 tanks during their offensive on terrorists’ positions near al-Bab city. The losses were confirmed by the Die Welt newspaper, which wrote about the tank, manufactured by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann company and considered ‘invincible’ before.
The tank (practically of all variants of its modification) was sold to 18 countries, including Turkey, which bought 354 tanks from the Bundeswehr. All the purchased tanks were upgraded by the ASELSAN company in 2005.
But it is obviously that the tank was not designed for fighting in urban areas, despite the fact that at the time of its passing into service German engineers were looking for a compromise between its defense, weapons and maneuverability on the battlefield. As a result, the emphasis was placed on the frontal armor, but suddenly the Leopard 2 has demonstrated its vulnerable points on its sides and on the rear side of its tower. And terrorists showed a good knowledge of these weakened zones, which they targeted with the Russian Kornet-E anti-tank guided missile launcher. However, ‘fighting in urban areas’ is too ‘loud’ word for describing the situation near al-Bab. What would happen with these tanks if they operated in Aleppo or Mosul, where we can see fighting in real urban areas?
In addition, unlike the later modifications, the Turkish Leopard 2 tanks do not have an explosive-reactive armor that reduces negative effects of hitting with ammunition.
Another reason of the losses is also a lack of experience among Turkish crews, as well as a lack of a normal doctrine of tanks’ usage in urban areas.
In any case, this may explain, at least partially, difficulties of Turkish troops and Ankara-backed militant groups during the battle against terrorists near al-Bab city.
 

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KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — The reputation of Germany’s vaunted Leopard 2 tank, which forms the mainstay of NATO’s armored forces, has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants in Syria.
At least 10 of the 60-ton main battle tanks have been destroyed during a Turkish attempt to recapture the strategically important northern town of al-Bab, located just 15 miles south of the Turkish border, media reports have said.
The Turks have deployed several thousand soldiers in the operation, which began in September. But despite airstrikes by Russian warplanes in support of the advancing troops, they have been unable to take the town in the face of determined opposition.
Several dozen Turkish soldiers and local allies have died in the combat. Germany’s Die Welt newspaper said at least 10 Leopard 2s were destroyed and many others damaged in street fighting on the outskirts of al-Bab. The rebels are said to have used both U.S.-made TOW and Russian Kornet anti-tank missiles in attacks on the tanks.
 

The_Hypocrite

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With regards to this article, tanks were never meant to be used in urban warfare,,,the krauts learnt that in WW2....and anti tank weapons have become more advanced so the urban environment has posed a greater risk to tanks. So the lost of the tank comes to no surprise,,,
 

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With regards to this article, tanks were never meant to be used in urban warfare,,,the krauts learnt that in WW2....and anti tank weapons have become more advanced so the urban environment has posed a greater risk to tanks. So the lost of the tank comes to no surprise,,,

U are still in the WW2 mindset. But that is a myth
Tanks were used extensively in urban environment in WW2 and every war after that. Russian tanks in Berlin sound familiar? American armour cutting across Germany and German cities. Even the North Vietnamese armour roll into Saigon at the end of the Vietnam war. tanks were used in Lebanon, Iraq etc. No infantry man will ever say he does not want a tank with him in the city.
 

The_Hypocrite

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U are still in the WW2 mindset. But that is a myth
Tanks were used extensively in urban environment in WW2 and every war after that. Russian tanks in Berlin sound familiar? American armour cutting across Germany and German cities. Even the North Vietnamese armour roll into Saigon at the end of the Vietnam war. tanks were used in Lebanon, Iraq etc. No infantry man will ever say he does not want a tank with him in the city.

I am saying tanks are more vulnerable in an Urban setting, and the Russkies in WW2 outnumber the krauts in the battle of berlin, they can send in heaps of tanks etc and accept the looses. Now when one modern tank is worth 10 times more than its WW2 predecessors its harder to stomach such losses. And with modern Anti tank weapons like the Milan and TOW or the Soviet RPG, infantry can hide in the urban area and ambush the tanks...if the tanks is supported by huge amount of armour infantry and going into an urban setting, it increases the tanks survivability...but if need tanks to go into an urban environment, why not use cheaper options? used an APC, with a diesel truck engine and load it with a 105mm tank gun and armour it up,,use off the shelf components ,no need those high tech stuff in new tanks,,,and that will keep cost low and can produce more,,,a modern day tank was designed to stand toe to toe against another tank,,,not to fight in urban environments,,,
 

frenchbriefs

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In summary,tanks are a overwhelming success until they are not.60 percent of the time,it works every single time.
 

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I am saying tanks are more vulnerable in an Urban setting, and the Russkies in WW2 outnumber the krauts in the battle of berlin, they can send in heaps of tanks etc and accept the looses. Now when one modern tank is worth 10 times more than its WW2 predecessors its harder to stomach such losses. And with modern Anti tank weapons like the Milan and TOW or the Soviet RPG, infantry can hide in the urban area and ambush the tanks...if the tanks is supported by huge amount of armour infantry and going into an urban setting, it increases the tanks survivability...but if need tanks to go into an urban environment, why not use cheaper options? used an APC, with a diesel truck engine and load it with a 105mm tank gun and armour it up,,use off the shelf components ,no need those high tech stuff in new tanks,,,and that will keep cost low and can produce more,,,a modern day tank was designed to stand toe to toe against another tank,,,not to fight in urban environments,,,

That's like saying you are more horny at a nude beach. Everything is more vulnerable in an urban setting. Infantry, armour, AI, etc. That's not news.There is no such thing as an invulnerable tank. There has not been on tank build in history that has been impossible to destroy. That is the way it is. Sometimes the tank has the upper hand and then anti tank has the upper. Prior to 1973 Yom Kippur War, the tank had the upper hand. During the war anti tank weapons had the upper hand. After the war, the tank had the upper hand again with explosive reactive armour that could defeat chemical energy rounds from RPGs and ATGW. Then the anti tank faction countered with tandem warhead ATGW and RPG, and the tank counter attacked now with Active Protection systems like Trophy. This is always going to happen like this.

My point is 2 fold.

1) When the SAF bought the Leo 2, the tank was not proven in combat. It had not been in a hot conflict before. MAny other MBTs like Merkava, M1, M60, T-72, Chieftain, etc have gone to war before and their weaknesses and strength were known.

2) The Leo 2 has been uparmoured as mentioned in the articles and the German's version is A7. Their upgrades are done by Rheinmetall, a well respected company. Instead of having our Leo 2 done by them too, we brought them back to Zikapore to have IBD Diesenroth and ST ENgineering do the upgrades. Are they are good as the german's and others? No one knows. I personally doubt it
 

The_Hypocrite

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Amongst all the tanks, the LEO2 on paper is the most well rounded and performance is better than those u mention. The exception is the M1A2 however I would avoid the M1s like a plague due to their engines,,,good performance but a gas guzzler. For these urban settings etc,,the tank need to travel fast etc? The Leo2 was the lessons learnt from WW2,,,use a diesel engine, less chance of getting fire and more reliable engine...but in a built up area,,,do we need Leo2? cant we use an up armoured APC at a lower cost? The Leo2 etc are tanks designed to fight other tanks,,not for urban warfare. The Merkava has a higher survival rate due to it having the engine in front and the Israelis designed the tank for crew protection as a priority. But the political implications for singkieland or any arab country to use a merkava is political suicide....

For the upgrade of LEO2 by singkieland,,,its a political decision to give jobs to ST and jobs for the boys,,but at least the money is channelled to local companies and I don't think singkieland will fight a war,,the toys are just for show,,to show SEA we have the best toys etc,,,


That's like saying you are more horny at a nude beach. Everything is more vulnerable in an urban setting. Infantry, armour, AI, etc. That's not news.There is no such thing as an invulnerable tank. There has not been on tank build in history that has been impossible to destroy. That is the way it is. Sometimes the tank has the upper hand and then anti tank has the upper. Prior to 1973 Yom Kippur War, the tank had the upper hand. During the war anti tank weapons had the upper hand. After the war, the tank had the upper hand again with explosive reactive armour that could defeat chemical energy rounds from RPGs and ATGW. Then the anti tank faction countered with tandem warhead ATGW and RPG, and the tank counter attacked now with Active Protection systems like Trophy. This is always going to happen like this.

My point is 2 fold.

1) When the SAF bought the Leo 2, the tank was not proven in combat. It had not been in a hot conflict before. MAny other MBTs like Merkava, M1, M60, T-72, Chieftain, etc have gone to war before and their weaknesses and strength were known.

2) The Leo 2 has been uparmoured as mentioned in the articles and the German's version is A7. Their upgrades are done by Rheinmetall, a well respected company. Instead of having our Leo 2 done by them too, we brought them back to Zikapore to have IBD Diesenroth and ST ENgineering do the upgrades. Are they are good as the german's and others? No one knows. I personally doubt it
 

Leckmichamarsch

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In summary,tanks are a overwhelming success until they are not.60 percent of the time,it works every single time.

FU Deisenroth brokered the deal to Mindeaf via his sidekick Richard Kwok - CTO but know shit about technology and an idiot who got his PhD from a SPH type but distant learning university using a template copied thesis gotten from his librarian wife from NUS..... Thesis on program mgmt of a fighting vehicle aka Bionix which at best is diploma or ITE level but buttered up and glorified..... BTW Kwok wasn't even the progam mgr of the Bionix but in charge of cladding the tank with armour which is done 100 percent by IBD ie his buddy Deisenroth. As the Bionix coulld not be morphed into MBT, the two baboons colluded and brought in Leo 2 for SAF earning huge bribes n commissions
 

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FU Deisenroth brokered the deal to Mindeaf via his sidekick Richard Kwok - CTO but know shit about technology and an idiot who got his PhD from a SPH type but distant learning university using a template copied thesis gotten from his librarian wife from NUS..... Thesis on program mgmt of a fighting vehicle aka Bionix which at best is diploma or ITE level but buttered up and glorified..... BTW Kwok wasn't even the progam mgr of the Bionix but in charge of cladding the tank with armour which is done 100 percent by IBD ie his buddy Deisenroth. As the Bionix coulld not be morphed into MBT, the two baboons colluded and brought in Leo 2 for SAF earning huge bribes n commissions

Yup, Bionix was fucked up from the start. The AFV and the light tank version should have been developed in conjunction together. Instead, they pushed out the AFV first, and then belatedly when back to try and do the light tank, but it did not work. The Bionix should have had a wider hull and chassis both for comfort to the troopers and also for a tank turret to be mounted on the tank version.

Its interesting, because the costs are not revealed to the public. But I would venture to say that the mods that SAF paid ST and Diesenroth to bring the Leo 2 to SG standard, might have been equal to or exceeding the cost that Germany sold each tank to us. That fact that after putting in all that shit into our Leo 2 it does not have APS and ERA makes me doubt its survival in urban environment.
 

borom

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Well known fact that MBT's are vulnerable in urban setting and need to operate in a combined arms situation with engineers and AI/infantry and sometimes close air support.
Could the turks have sent in their tanks alone?
 

virus

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Well known fact that MBT's are vulnerable in urban setting and need to operate in a combined arms situation with engineers and AI/infantry and sometimes close air support.
Could the turks have sent in their tanks alone?

the turks have no friends and biz there. prolly kena threesome, owned by isis in front and iranian thru popular movement from the kar chng
 

frenchbriefs

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this is why tanks,planes,ships can never beat missiles,atgms,sams and cruise missiles.....

look at these mofos,their eyes bulging and gasping like goldfish,how can they ever survive one shot from a Buk or S300?if the missile doesnt finish them off,they would probably die from sexual asphyxiation. for tank and ship no need say,like sitting ducks.

russian missile can go up to mach 6,has 10x the range,fly high like a bird and more powerful radar than anything a plane can carry,resistant to jamming even by 4 different nato ewar planes.

[video=youtube;YVkzZQVSX08]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVkzZQVSX08[/video]
 
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eatshitndie

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even the so called mighty merkava has vulnerabilities in urban combat, especially if an rpg round hits the exposed shot trap at the back of the turret. a merkava 1 kena hit in lebanon in '82 from the rear and burst into flames.

IMG_0156.JPG
 
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eatshitndie

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the idf use chains to cover the shot trap at the back of the turret to deflect and cause rpg rounds to explode prematurely before hitting most vulnerable spot on the merkava. this is a merkava 4 with chains at shot trap. surprisingly no era, but merkava is known to be difficult to mount era.

IMG_0155.JPG
 
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eatshitndie

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in real combat vulnerabilities will be discovered and exploited by both enemy infantry and armor personnel. it then becomes a life and death game of cat and mouse, counter and counter-counter with odd looking upgrades and improvisation. don't think saf will understand that unless they get into real combat. for now, it's spick, span, spotless and polished for parades. for show only.
 

eatshitndie

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romanian t-90 with soviet-era version of "era". not good looking and sinkie-spotless for parade but they paraded it anyway. :p

IMG_0158.JPG
 
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