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Chitchat Bond investors in Spore be careful

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There were some discussion about investing in bonds.

It seems that Spore investors are not protected if they invest in bonds. So be careful & make sure what understand the true cost of owning bonds in Spore
.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-vulnerability-of-singapore-s-not-really-rich


How Singapore’s Not-Really-Rich Have Been Burned by Swiber Bonds


When Elaine Tham signed an “accredited investor” form with her bank in Singapore two years ago, she took a fateful step toward losing all the money she had set aside for her children’s education.

Based on her financial profile and investment priorities -- her need for S$150,000 ($110,000) to pay university fees -- a local branch of HSBC Holdings Plc had initially categorized her as a “medium risk” investor. But because the value of her property and car entitled her to “accredited” status, a category reserved for wealthy investors, Tham says she was persuaded to take a riskier path. She agreed to invest S$250,000 in the bonds of a small Singapore energy-services company, Swiber Holdings Ltd., which said in August that it won’t be able to repay its bondholders.

Tham is one of many Singaporeans who lost money by investing in Swiber, which sold an unusually high proportion of its bonds to the wealthy clients of banks in Singapore. Amid signs last week that more local energy-services companies are being dragged down by the prolonged slump in global oil prices, some are urging quick action to plug loopholes in Singapore’s investor-protection rules.

“It’s time for Singapore’s regulators to rethink how they define the accredited-investor regime,” said Christopher Chen, an assistant law professor at Singapore Management University. “Here, if someone happens to own a landed property, likely that person will become an accredited investor. If investors are really rich, it’s not a problem. But some people are semi-rich, or look rich on paper.”

A Singapore-based spokesman for HSBC declined to comment on Tham’s case, referring inquiries about the sales practices of the bank’s relationship managers to its 2013 annual report. In that report, HSBC said it stopped linking wealth-management relationship managers’ incentives to sales volumes for the U.K. and France that year, and would make that effective in most markets by 2014.

Singapore law allows banks to automatically classify individual investors as “accredited” if they have at least S$2 million of assets or earned at least S$300,000 in the previous 12 months. By entering the category, the wealthy are given a greater range of investment choices but lose some of the key protections offered to ordinary investors -- such as restrictions on selling them certain riskier products. Swiber bonds were only available to accredited investors or those investing a minimum of S$250,000, according to Robson Lee, a Singapore-based partner at the U.S. law firm Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP.

Property Riches

As property prices surged over the past decade, many middle-class Singaporeans entered the accredited investor category due to the high value of their homes. A mass-market 1,000 square-foot suburban apartment was worth S$1.26 million on average in the second quarter, Savills Plc data show, while a same-sized luxury apartment in the center of town would be worth S$2.34 million. About 20 percent of Singaporean households live in private housing, government data show.

“They are wealthy by technical definition, but in reality they may not have enough disposable assets to withstand such losses,” said Lee at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher. “There are many Swiber bond investors who are left high and dry as they were persuaded by their bankers to buy such high-yield products with money they can ill afford to lose.”

More than 80 percent of some Swiber bond issues were sold to clients of Singapore private banks, which cater for the wealthiest investors. Swiber is currently under interim judicial management and missed a payment on a bond coupon in August, which triggered cross defaults on all its issues.

Legal Changes

Asked about the implications of the Swiber default for investor protection, the Monetary Authority of Singapore said it’s proposing revisions to the law which will prevent banks from assigning accredited investor status to those whose wealth is mostly in property. The changes will also require that individuals be allowed to decide if they wish to "opt in" to accredited status and thereby forgo the protections afforded to ordinary investors. The MAS plans to introduce the revisions to Parliament by the fourth quarter, it said Sept. 2 in an e-mailed response to questions from Bloomberg News.

Allowing wealthy investors to opt in to the accredited investor regime will bring Singapore up to the investor protection standards of Hong Kong and the European Union, the MAS said in its proposed amendments to the law.

Regardless of investors’ status, “private banks are expected to adopt fair business practices and act in the best interests of their clients,” the MAS said.

Hong Kong introduced safeguards earlier this year for wealthier people in the “individual professional investor” category, requiring banks to ensure that products they sell are appropriate for a client’s risk profile and financial situation.

Lehman Losses[

Regulators in both Singapore and Hong Kong have sought to boost investor protection after mis-selling scandals at the time of the 2008 global financial crisis caused investors millions of dollars of losses. The most notorious was the sale of structured products linked to Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. -- investments that soured rapidly following the U.S. bank’s collapse in September 2008. Sixteen Hong Kong banks were forced to repay about $800 million to investors, while 10 financial services institutions in Singapore were banned temporarily from selling structured products.

Regulators had been “too relaxed” about the selling process back in 2008, said David Webb, a Hong Kong-based shareholder activist and deputy chairman of the city’s takeovers panel. “Just because someone is wealthy it doesn’t mean that they are also sophisticated as investors. Regulators need to adopt an approach which can handle both ends of the spectrum of sophistication.”

The growing signs of stress in Singapore’s domestic bond market suggest wealthy investors may face further losses. Last week, Rickmers Maritime and Marco Polo Marine Ltd. said they are having difficulty with bond repayments, as their operations have been hurt by weaker oil prices.

The wealthy are especially vulnerable because of their large exposure to the local bond market. Private-bank clients bought about 44 percent of Singapore-dollar bonds issued in 2014, the most of any investor group, MAS figures show. By comparison, private banks and retail investors accounted for just 11 percent of purchases of U.S. dollar-denominated Asian credit in the same year, according to a Deutsche Asset Management presentation.

The revisions to the law proposed by the MAS might have helped another Singaporean bondholder, Sandeep Kapoor, who says he is facing losses after buying S$250,000 of Swiber bonds in 2014. The 50-year-old engineer said he only found out he was an accredited investor last month, some two years after the purchase, via his relationship manager at DBS Group Holdings Ltd.

Under the proposed revisions, he would have been given the chance to opt in to accredited investor status, rather than being automatically assigned to the category because of his wealth.

In an e-mailed reply to questions, DBS said: “Our relationship managers are focused on investor suitability and go through a robust process to ensure that our clients fully understand the product before making their investments." The bank’s accredited investor clients "are kept informed of their AI status at various stages, including at the time of account opening, account review, and after every trade conducted," DBS added.

Kapoor said he would choose not to be an accredited investor, given the chance. “Who would understand the full consequence of being an accredited investor? It can be a grey area."
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The worst person to ask investment advice is your private banker. Their KPIs is built on sales not on your profits.
 

Ectar

Alfrescian
Loyal
The worst person to ask investment advice is your private banker. Their KPIs is built on sales not on your profits.

Be it Bankers, dealers and any financial representatives, they are all the same, birds of the same feathers flop together.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The banks only care about how much crap they can dump on u,not ur interests or well being.saying they go thru a robust process to ensure their customers know what they are buying is a oxymoron,its codespeak for washing their hands off all responsibility,we thought u knew what u are doing.if the banks are truly sincere in their modus operandi they should at least guarantee 30 percent of the bonds,or not reccomend anything they dont co own part of.
 

spinn

Alfrescian
Loyal
lol. u thinks can depend dem? wat dey tell u & wat dey do r two different things. if dey cunt even understand basic things like joint altenate a/c means onli one signature is required, wat do u think?

dunt the lemon bros debacle oredi tell u something?
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The worst person to ask investment advice is your private banker. Their KPIs is built on sales not on your profits.

Or your losses........
I recall talking to a VP of one the the local bank, young chap, already VP, must be high flyer, I thought.

recommended those package with terms like strike price and knockout price, don't know how it works also.
S$250k a pop, I gave him a funny and wtf look and ask him he know what is he selling or recommending.

At 250k a pop, he must see me very up.
Told him to go and fly kite, no money, how to buy........???
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There were some discussion about investing in bonds.

It seems that Spore investors are not protected if they invest in bonds. So be careful & make sure what understand the true cost of owning bonds in Spore
.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-vulnerability-of-singapore-s-not-really-rich


How Singapore’s Not-Really-Rich Have Been Burned by Swiber Bonds


When Elaine Tham signed an “accredited investor” form with her bank in Singapore two years ago, she took a fateful step toward losing all the money she had set aside for her children’s education.

Based on her financial profile and investment priorities -- her need for S$150,000 ($110,000) to pay university fees -- a local branch of HSBC Holdings Plc had initially categorized her as a “medium risk” investor. But because the value of her property and car entitled her to “accredited” status, a category reserved for wealthy investors, Tham says she was persuaded to take a riskier path. She agreed to invest S$250,000 in the bonds of a small Singapore energy-services company, Swiber Holdings Ltd., which said in August that it won’t be able to repay its bondholders.

Tham is one of many Singaporeans who lost money by investing in Swiber, which sold an unusually high proportion of its bonds to the wealthy clients of banks in Singapore. Amid signs last week that more local energy-services companies are being dragged down by the prolonged slump in global oil prices, some are urging quick action to plug loopholes in Singapore’s investor-protection rules.

“It’s time for Singapore’s regulators to rethink how they define the accredited-investor regime,” said Christopher Chen, an assistant law professor at Singapore Management University. “Here, if someone happens to own a landed property, likely that person will become an accredited investor. If investors are really rich, it’s not a problem. But some people are semi-rich, or look rich on paper.”

A Singapore-based spokesman for HSBC declined to comment on Tham’s case, referring inquiries about the sales practices of the bank’s relationship managers to its 2013 annual report. In that report, HSBC said it stopped linking wealth-management relationship managers’ incentives to sales volumes for the U.K. and France that year, and would make that effective in most markets by 2014.

Singapore law allows banks to automatically classify individual investors as “accredited” if they have at least S$2 million of assets or earned at least S$300,000 in the previous 12 months. By entering the category, the wealthy are given a greater range of investment choices but lose some of the key protections offered to ordinary investors -- such as restrictions on selling them certain riskier products. Swiber bonds were only available to accredited investors or those investing a minimum of S$250,000, according to Robson Lee, a Singapore-based partner at the U.S. law firm Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP.

Property Riches

As property prices surged over the past decade, many middle-class Singaporeans entered the accredited investor category due to the high value of their homes. A mass-market 1,000 square-foot suburban apartment was worth S$1.26 million on average in the second quarter, Savills Plc data show, while a same-sized luxury apartment in the center of town would be worth S$2.34 million. About 20 percent of Singaporean households live in private housing, government data show.

“They are wealthy by technical definition, but in reality they may not have enough disposable assets to withstand such losses,” said Lee at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher. “There are many Swiber bond investors who are left high and dry as they were persuaded by their bankers to buy such high-yield products with money they can ill afford to lose.”

More than 80 percent of some Swiber bond issues were sold to clients of Singapore private banks, which cater for the wealthiest investors. Swiber is currently under interim judicial management and missed a payment on a bond coupon in August, which triggered cross defaults on all its issues.

Legal Changes

Asked about the implications of the Swiber default for investor protection, the Monetary Authority of Singapore said it’s proposing revisions to the law which will prevent banks from assigning accredited investor status to those whose wealth is mostly in property. The changes will also require that individuals be allowed to decide if they wish to "opt in" to accredited status and thereby forgo the protections afforded to ordinary investors. The MAS plans to introduce the revisions to Parliament by the fourth quarter, it said Sept. 2 in an e-mailed response to questions from Bloomberg News.

Allowing wealthy investors to opt in to the accredited investor regime will bring Singapore up to the investor protection standards of Hong Kong and the European Union, the MAS said in its proposed amendments to the law.

Regardless of investors’ status, “private banks are expected to adopt fair business practices and act in the best interests of their clients,” the MAS said.

Hong Kong introduced safeguards earlier this year for wealthier people in the “individual professional investor” category, requiring banks to ensure that products they sell are appropriate for a client’s risk profile and financial situation.

Lehman Losses[

Regulators in both Singapore and Hong Kong have sought to boost investor protection after mis-selling scandals at the time of the 2008 global financial crisis caused investors millions of dollars of losses. The most notorious was the sale of structured products linked to Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. -- investments that soured rapidly following the U.S. bank’s collapse in September 2008. Sixteen Hong Kong banks were forced to repay about $800 million to investors, while 10 financial services institutions in Singapore were banned temporarily from selling structured products.

Regulators had been “too relaxed” about the selling process back in 2008, said David Webb, a Hong Kong-based shareholder activist and deputy chairman of the city’s takeovers panel. “Just because someone is wealthy it doesn’t mean that they are also sophisticated as investors. Regulators need to adopt an approach which can handle both ends of the spectrum of sophistication.”

The growing signs of stress in Singapore’s domestic bond market suggest wealthy investors may face further losses. Last week, Rickmers Maritime and Marco Polo Marine Ltd. said they are having difficulty with bond repayments, as their operations have been hurt by weaker oil prices.

The wealthy are especially vulnerable because of their large exposure to the local bond market. Private-bank clients bought about 44 percent of Singapore-dollar bonds issued in 2014, the most of any investor group, MAS figures show. By comparison, private banks and retail investors accounted for just 11 percent of purchases of U.S. dollar-denominated Asian credit in the same year, according to a Deutsche Asset Management presentation.

The revisions to the law proposed by the MAS might have helped another Singaporean bondholder, Sandeep Kapoor, who says he is facing losses after buying S$250,000 of Swiber bonds in 2014. The 50-year-old engineer said he only found out he was an accredited investor last month, some two years after the purchase, via his relationship manager at DBS Group Holdings Ltd.

Under the proposed revisions, he would have been given the chance to opt in to accredited investor status, rather than being automatically assigned to the category because of his wealth.

In an e-mailed reply to questions, DBS said: “Our relationship managers are focused on investor suitability and go through a robust process to ensure that our clients fully understand the product before making their investments." The bank’s accredited investor clients "are kept informed of their AI status at various stages, including at the time of account opening, account review, and after every trade conducted," DBS added.

Kapoor said he would choose not to be an accredited investor, given the chance. “Who would understand the full consequence of being an accredited investor? It can be a grey area."

Elaine and Sandeep is sure screwed big time. Most likely the 250k is bye bye Liao. Understand swiber default on its RMB denominated bond just yesterday. Under JM, no need to pay.......

Most of the senior management also left....
Who to kpkb to?. The banks RM?.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sometime in 1993, Singapore banks began to take in Poly grads and trained them to do sales of bank products. They were the first to be called financial planners before the Insurance industry began to use the term. When the sales commission and salaries began to go u, they hired Uni grads. Since then people began losing big time on various products - Barclays, Lehman brothers, bonds, margin trading, forex, foreign accounts.

They were no different from snake oil salesmen. Then the found out female grads can also get good sales and began hiring them. To spot a financial planner in a bank, look for the best dressed person. In the 90s, DBS began assigning "personal banker" (financial planner) to all customers.

Or your losses........
I recall talking to a VP of one the the local bank, young chap, already VP, must be high flyer, I thought.

recommended those package with terms like strike price and knockout price, don't know how it works also.
S$250k a pop, I gave him a funny and wtf look and ask him he know what is he selling or recommending.

At 250k a pop, he must see me very up.
Told him to go and fly kite, no money, how to buy........???
 

krafty

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
simple fact, for oil and gas companies, oil price must be in the range of $70 to $80. looking at the current price of $40+, it look impossible and rather stupid to invest in the oil and gas industry.

for those needing advice, please page for Bro RUNifyoucan, this guy is above average. better than toking cock here.:biggrin:
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Elaine and Sandeep is sure screwed big time. Most likely the 250k is bye bye Liao. Understand swiber default on its RMB denominated bond just yesterday. Under JM, no need to pay.......

Most of the senior management also left....
Who to kpkb to?. The banks RM?.


I've had my share of problems with local businesses & that is why I try to avoid them e.g. I use US Brokers. By US law there is more protection & us brokerage firms also covered by extra insurance.

If you have a Spore credit card & get cheated, you are on your own. In the US you can make a complaint to the bank & they will reverse the charges & go after the culprit. I think it is known as the lemon law.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Sometime in 1993, Singapore banks began to take in Poly grads and trained them to do sales of bank products. They were the first to be called financial planners before the Insurance industry began to use the term. When the sales commission and salaries began to go u, they hired Uni grads. Since then people began losing big time on various products - Barclays, Lehman brothers, bonds, margin trading, forex, foreign accounts.

They were no different from snake oil salesmen. Then the found out female grads can also get good sales and began hiring them. To spot a financial planner in a bank, look for the best dressed person. In the 90s, DBS began assigning "personal banker" (financial planner) to all customers.

Actually it doesnt matter who the banks hire to peddle and push these products,be it salesmen or financial planners.ultimately they still have the power to analyze,filter thru and select the products they choose to push on their customers.of course this will conflict with the business relationships with these companies that urgently need these recapitalization to stay afloat and are willing to pay a huge premium.but the banking industry clearly need more clearly defined moral standards and regulations.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Here it is.........

Beleaguered oil field services firm Swiber Holdings has defaulted on a coupon payment due yesterday for its 450 million yuan (S$92.3 million) fixed-rate notes - the second bond payment it has defaulted on since its judicial management application in July.

According to the judicial managers' report earlier this month, Swiber has US$258.6 million (S$354 million) outstanding as of July 31 on three notes under a $1 billion multi-currency medium-term programme.

One of these three is the 450 million yuan note, on which Swiber had a 17.44 million yuan coupon payment due yesterday, according to court papers.






See who is talking about Swiber
2:57 PM - 20 Sep 2016

More bond coupon payments are looming next month under the multi-currency medium-term programme. A coupon payment of $5.7 million under a $160 million note is due on Oct 18 and another $100 million note, together with its final coupon payment, is due for redemption on Oct 10.

Swiber roiled the local bond market last month after it defaulted on a $4.88 million coupon payment that came due on Aug 2 on a $150 million sukuk note. This was part of a US$500 million multi-currency Islamic Trust certificate issuance programme.

According to the judicial managers' report, the notes payables are unsecured.

Another $50 million sukuk note is due in October next year under the US$500 million programme.

Meanwhile, claims against Swiber rose to US$231.4 million as of Sept 15, up from US$230.7 million a week ago.

"The company is currently seeking legal advice on the above claims," said Swiber's interim judicial managers in a filing to the Singapore Exchange last Friday.

Several sectors are vulnerable to rising financial strain, S&P Global Ratings analyst Bertrand Jabouley warned in a report. "The oil services sector remains the most vulnerable, as challenging markets and declining earnings coincide with high legacy debt levels and growing refinancing requirements."

Swiber is the largest local offshore firm to fall victim to the ongoing oil rout and macro-economic uncertainties, which contributed to the slowdown in the oil and gas exploration and production sector that the company services.

As of Sept 15, S&P Global estimated listed entities in Singapore have $60 billion in bonds outstanding.

[email protected]
- See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/swiber-defaults-bond-payment-again#sthash.Xm0CmNSd.dpuf
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
simple fact, for oil and gas companies, oil price must be in the range of $70 to $80. looking at the current price of $40+, it look impossible and rather stupid to invest in the oil and gas industry.

for those needing advice, please page for Bro RUNifyoucan, this guy is above average. better than toking cock here.:biggrin:

Bro run seems to have disappear again......:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Oh, so I suppose the internet is the best place to ask for stock tips huh? :confused:

Actually,internet would be better,because of collective intelligence,the bad benefits from the good,and high rate of information.u probably get the latest news and lowdown,grapevine,411 faster than anywhere else.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I don't think you know what the bank practices prior to circa 1993 were.

They did not sell investments products to consumers at all. This was the also the global practice. These products were only made available to high net worth customers (wealthy clients with cash that qualifies them and not property). These private bankers will actually look after their client's interest. They will be ask to go if the client complains about wrong information. They also have an exit strategy if the investments of the client hit the thresholds. The private banker monitor the clients portfolio on behalf of the client. The client pays a fee for these services.

If you are ordinary consumer you could get only get personal loans, vehicle loans, FDs, mortgages, credit card facilities, bridging loans etc. US banks here will also offer US denominated accounts etc. If you have $250K, fall on your knees and beg the branch manager to sell you bonds, they will not do it.

None of the central banks around the World allowed it. Get the picture?



Actually it doesnt matter who the banks hire to peddle and push these products,be it salesmen or financial planners.ultimately they still have the power to analyze,filter thru and select the products they choose to push on their customers.of course this will conflict with the business relationships with these companies that urgently need these recapitalization to stay afloat and are willing to pay a huge premium.but the banking industry clearly need more clearly defined moral standards and regulations.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I don't think you know what the bank practices prior to circa 1993 were.

They did not sell investments products to consumers at all. This was the also the global practice. These products were only made available to high net worth customers (wealthy clients with cash that qualifies them and not property). These private bankers will actually look after their client's interest. They will be ask to go if the client complains about wrong information. They also have an exit strategy if the investments of the client hit the thresholds. The private banker monitor the clients portfolio on behalf of the client. The client pays a fee for these services.

If you are ordinary consumer you could get only get personal loans, vehicle loans, FDs, mortgages, credit card facilities, bridging loans etc. US banks here will also offer US denominated accounts etc. If you have $250K, fall on your knees and beg the branch manager to sell you bonds, they will not do it.

None of the central banks around the World allowed it. Get the picture?

alright cool,thats sounds a different kind of stockbrokers,exit strategies,stop losses and all that.from what i understand bonds arent usually investments targeted at the individuals because of the large capital outlay,more of towards institutional investors.also the bond market is quite illiquid compared to equities and its quite difficult to unload quickly when u need to.of course now there are new creations that package these bonds up into well diversified bite sized pieces.....i wonder why they are recommended to individuals.i dont mind high yield junk bonds,buts its better if they come packaged with a hundred other different junk bonds so if a couple of them go bust im still alright.
 
Last edited:

chootchiew

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
After decades of studies, my investment methods is still the best - majority of money that cannot afford to lose to garment related tools with low returns. Afford to lose to highest risk investment with maximum returns - sg pool sports betting . No point go for half fuck neither here nor there and end up worst.
 

Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
for those needing advice, please page for Bro RUNifyoucan, this guy is above average. better than toking cock here.:biggrin:

Thank you for remembering me brother.

Today, some people people bully me for $1500 hahaha so, RUN is a loser in real life, dun be like RUN.

I am just sharing some things that I heard or I know. I am a nobody in life, but I like the brotherhood here. Many of us are trying to share knowledge and protect our faithful readers. All kinds of shits get exposed here. Boss Sam is willing to manage less happy souls like us who are like from IMH. In comparison, RUN can only do so much.

Bonds is just something that i can contribute meaningfully. I gave up about local politics and I urge our brothers here to seriously think and recognize that our people are a selfish lot. So, do them and yourself a favour, please vote for the whoever the incumbent recommends in the next Presidential election. Be bloody selfish like the 70% who mocked us after the last GE. 70% is overkill in business context. So let's raise the support level further.

Please try to understand the circumstances around us and try to protect yourself by making the best out of it. Just protect yourself and don't bother to save the rest of the 70%, for they are happier souls than us.
 
Last edited:

PretenderSam

Alfrescian
Loyal
This shows that LeongSam is right. Singaporeans , rich or poor , young or old , simply have no sense when
it comes to manage large amount of money. Better keep it in the CPF as LeongSam advised.
 
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