Serious Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's ego

There is a recent news report by Shit Times bragging about the fact that singapore is achieving water independence soon. As part of this article, the shit times revealed the cost of the various sources of water. As you know there are 3 water sources. rainwater from Johore under the water treaty. Newater and Desalination water. It turns out that Newater cost 5000 times more to produce then the treated water from Johor!! And Desalination water costs 17,500 times more to produce then the Johor water!!! Holy fuck, we are going broke just trying to produce water for ourselves, thanks to Old Fart's bloody ego and pissing contest with Mahathir. One idiot does not seem to realize that the other idiot had him by his short hairs. Even if Malaysia wanted 10 times more money for the raw water then what we were currently paying at that time, it would have been well worth it. this is a scandal and no oppo seems to have wanted to find out at that time, and Old fart was made out to be the hero for standing up to Malaysia's "unreasonable" demands, when in actual fact, he was the big villain.

What did Malaysia want?

In 1998, They wanted financial loans from singapore to help them out during the Asian crisis. Old fart did not give them the loans but later on, gave large loans totalling $10 billion directly to Indonesia, bypassing the IMF. Immediately, this got Mahathir riled up. More and more items were added to the water negotiations resulting in an unwieldy package. For example, Singapore wanted to add the ability of the RSAF to overfly Malaysian airspace on its way to the training areas in the south china sea, while malaysia wanted to talk about developing the parcels of land they owned in malaysia and the relocation of the tanjong pagar railway station. As well, the malaysians felt that the water sales priced negotiated by the Brits before they left was too low and water to open up the contract again. mahathir also wanted the CPF board to allow western malaysians to withdraw their CPF from singapore. Also added to the package later was the replacement of the Causeway by a bridge or underground rail tunnel. All these points are reasonable.

Not allowing western malaysians to withdraw their CPF while other foreign workers can, is ridiculous and biased. this was a reasonable request on the part of the malaysians. Giving the malaysians more money for the current water contract is also fair in my opinion, provided that the water treaty was in exhange, renewed for another 100 years or something like that. But we are not privileged to what was discussed between Old fart and mahathir, however, we know the cost to us today.

I have posted in the past before how Newater and desalinization will bankrupt us. this is the first time I have seen the proof in the shit times. What kind of idiot leadership would engage in a battle of egos and cost singaporeans 5000-17500 times the price of water. This does not include the capital costs in the billions $ needed to start up the desalinization and newater plants. How much money could have been saved by the economy as a whole if we had just used or renewed the existing water agreements at that time? Now that old fart is dead, we may never know wha transpired. Thanks ah gong for screwing us over. You really were a gong kia.

http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/how-singapore-will-never-go-thirsty

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

The only way for Singapore to be truly water and energy independent is to develop its' own Thorium Molten Salt Reactor. It's a totally different Nuclear reactor from the current toxic and dangerous PWC Nuclear reactor which resulted in Japan Fukushima incident.

The new nuclear reactor can produce totally safe energy, very little to no toxic waste, super efficient and totally safe as there is no pressurised cooler used, so no danger of explosion or meltdown. Its' by-product can desalinate sea water and produce radioactive isotope for medical use in much more effective cancer treatment.
http://www.thoriumenergyworld.com/
[video=youtube;0BybPPIMuQQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BybPPIMuQQ[/video]

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Now u realised why nobody want NEWater! It's more expensive than the real thing!

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Tunku kicked us out of malay federation,otherwise we will be enjoying cheap housing,cheap water,and drastically reduced military spending and a vast hinterland,and real economic growth,real resources and a real manufacturing base,not this artificially inflated bubble economy,where standard of living is stagnant and housing transport food healthcare inflation and cost of living far outstrips real wage growth.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

frenchbriefs said:

Tunku kicked us out of malay federation,otherwise we will be enjoying cheap housing,cheap water,and drastically reduced military spending and a vast hinterland,and real economic growth,real resources and a real manufacturing base,not this artificially inflated bubble economy,where standard of living is stagnant and housing transport food healthcare inflation and cost of living far outstrips real wage growth.

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Seriously! U want to be part of Bolehland! Najib to take over our CPF?

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

enterprise2 said:

Seriously! U want to be part of Bolehland! Najib to take over our CPF?

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Fuck you lah, asshole. najib gives you back your CPF at 55 years old, no questions asked. and gives you over 6% interest versus 2.5%.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

frenchbriefs said:

Tunku kicked us out of malay federation,otherwise we will be enjoying cheap housing,cheap water,and drastically reduced military spending and a vast hinterland,and real economic growth,real resources and a real manufacturing base,not this artificially inflated bubble economy,where standard of living is stagnant and housing transport food healthcare inflation and cost of living far outstrips real wage growth.

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According to the malaysians, Old Fart asked to leave.

As author T J S George recounted in his 1974 book Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore, Tunku Abdul Rahman was more surprised than he was moved when he saw Mr Lee in tears over the break-up. The Tungku said: "I don't know why Mr Lee acted like that...he was quite pleased about [the split]."

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Both agreements pegged the price at 3 sens (RM). Mahathir asked 30 sens, 10 time more. We offered 45 sens, 15 times more plus resolve a raft of outstanding issues including extension. Mahathir refused to link price of water to other issues.

Let me know if you need any other details.

Papsmearer said:

There is a recent news report by Shit Times bragging about the fact that singapore is achieving water independence soon. As part of this article, the shit times revealed the cost of the various sources of water. As you know there are 3 water sources. rainwater from Johore under the water treaty. Newater and Desalination water. It turns out that Newater cost 5000 times more to produce then the treated water from Johor!! And Desalination water costs 17,500 times more to produce then the Johor water!!! Holy fuck, we are going broke just trying to produce water for ourselves, thanks to Old Fart's bloody ego and pissing contest with Mahathir. One idiot does not seem to realize that the other idiot had him by his short hairs. Even if Malaysia wanted 10 times more money for the raw water then what we were currently paying at that time, it would have been well worth it. this is a scandal and no oppo seems to have wanted to find out at that time, and Old fart was made out to be the hero for standing up to Malaysia's "unreasonable" demands, when in actual fact, he was the big villain.

What did Malaysia want?

In 1998, They wanted financial loans from singapore to help them out during the Asian crisis. Old fart did not give them the loans but later on, gave large loans totalling $10 billion directly to Indonesia, bypassing the IMF. Immediately, this got Mahathir riled up. More and more items were added to the water negotiations resulting in an unwieldy package. For example, Singapore wanted to add the ability of the RSAF to overfly Malaysian airspace on its way to the training areas in the south china sea, while malaysia wanted to talk about developing the parcels of land they owned in malaysia and the relocation of the tanjong pagar railway station. As well, the malaysians felt that the water sales priced negotiated by the Brits before they left was too low and water to open up the contract again. mahathir also wanted the CPF board to allow western malaysians to withdraw their CPF from singapore. Also added to the package later was the replacement of the Causeway by a bridge or underground rail tunnel. All these points are reasonable.

Not allowing western malaysians to withdraw their CPF while other foreign workers can, is ridiculous and biased. this was a reasonable request on the part of the malaysians. Giving the malaysians more money for the current water contract is also fair in my opinion, provided that the water treaty was in exhange, renewed for another 100 years or something like that. But we are not privileged to what was discussed between Old fart and mahathir, however, we know the cost to us today.

I have posted in the past before how Newater and desalinization will bankrupt us. this is the first time I have seen the proof in the shit times. What kind of idiot leadership would engage in a battle of egos and cost singaporeans 5000-17500 times the price of water. This does not include the capital costs in the billions $ needed to start up the desalinization and newater plants. How much money could have been saved by the economy as a whole if we had just used or renewed the existing water agreements at that time? Now that old fart is dead, we may never know wha transpired. Thanks ah gong for screwing us over. You really were a gong kia.

http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/how-singapore-will-never-go-thirsty

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Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

scroobal said:

Both agreements pegged the price at 3 sens (RM). Mahathir asked 30 sens, 10 time more. We offered 45 sens, 15 times more plus resolve a raft of outstanding issues including extension. Mahathir refused to link price of water to other issues.

Let me know if you need any other details.

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like i mentioned above, and maybe you missed it, the entire water negotiations were packaged together with other issues. So, I really don't know what you are talking about.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Actually the main problem with making our own water is the large amount of energy required.3.5 kwh per cubic meter of water is alot,plus the large amount of water consumed daily.this eats up a large portion of our electricity production capacity which in turns pushes the price of electricity up.electricity cost 22c per kwh,water is expensive as fuck.which makes me curious why dont Singapore pursue solar renewable energy.singapore has one of the highest sunfall in the world,we should follow japan and cover our reservoirs with floating high efficiency solar panels,not only this will reduce the water evaporation from the sun exposure,we will be able to generate gigawatt hours of clean renewable energy from the sun.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Not to worry, People can figure it out.

Papsmearer said:

like i mentioned above, and maybe you missed it, the entire water negotiations were packaged together with other issues. So, I really don't know what you are talking about.

Click to expand...

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

frenchbriefs said:

Actually the main problem with making our own water is the large amount of energy required.3.5 kwh per cubic meter of water is alot,plus the large amount of water consumed daily.this eats up a large portion of our electricity production capacity which in turns pushes the price of electricity up.electricity cost 22c per kwh,water is expensive as fuck.which makes me curious why dont Singapore pursue solar renewable energy.singapore has one of the highest sunfall in the world,we should follow japan and cover our reservoirs with floating high efficiency solar panels,not only this will reduce the water evaporation from the sun exposure,we will be able to generate gigawatt hours of clean renewable energy from the sun.

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Not only that, there are many water conservation measures that can be employed but have not been. I recall years ago, one enterprising sinkie reconfigured his bathroom so that his bath water (the soapy and shampoo water mix) was used to flush his toilet. As well, water collection devices could be installed on all HDB flats and other buildings. There was also supposed to be a water pipeline from the riau islands. I can tell you the fucking PAP did not go all out to figure out water conservation and energy conservation strategies. I suspect they really wanted newater and desalinization just to make more money from sinkies.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

We have to accomplish three things so that Singapore will never go thirsty: Overcome scarcity, reduce the cost of production, and ensure long-term sustainability of our water system.
OVERCOME SCARCITY

Although we are right on the equator and smack in the tropics, nature does not provide us with quite enough water to get by. Our small size means there is just not enough room in Singapore to catch and keep all the rainwater we need.
We are in good company though. Big cities are invariably compelled to bring water from without to quench the thirst of their citizens within. Hong Kong, London, New York and Tokyo all draw much, if not the entirety, of their supply from large forest watersheds and rivers well outside of city limits.


The Separation Agreement, which formalised Singapore's independence after it separated from Malaysia in 1965, guarantees us the right to extract 250 million imperial gallons a day (mgd) of raw water from the Johor River. This right expires in 2061. In order that we are able to exercise this right in a sustainable way, PUB, Singapore's national water agency, constructed and operates a large regulating reservoir - the Linggiu Reservoir - in the upper reaches of the Johor River. Water imported from Johor can easily satisfy half of Singapore's current 430mgd daily demand. Unfortunately, dry weather and large discharges to combat salinity intrusion downstream are causing Linggiu to deplete at an alarming rate. Linggiu started last year 80 per cent full but, as I write, its water level has dropped progressively to an unprecedented 31 per cent.
Johor Baru itself suffered several bouts of water shortages recently and was forced into curtailing supplies to its residents each time. PUB's additional provision of treated water had helped many Johoreans this past Ramadan.



It is possible that Linggiu may fail, compromising the viability of the Johor River source and the reliability of imported water. If and when that happens, there should be no panic in Singapore. Over the years, our decision-makers, planners and water engineers have created enough indigenous capacity to meet just such a contingency. This capacity comes in the now familiar forms of NEWater and desalinated water.
The point is this: Singapore, although water-poor, has through foresight, careful planning, determined research and diligent implementation, significantly overcome the challenge of water scarcity. And that is no mean feat.
LOWER PRODUCTION COSTS

Rain is free, and making it drinkable is fairly cheap. Desalination and manufacturing NEWater are far more expensive ways of producing potable water. It takes just 0.2 kilowatt hours of energy to treat one cubic m of rainwater, compared to the 1kWh/m³ to turn sewage effluent into NEWater and the whopping 3.5kWh/m³ required to de-salt seawater. Quite obviously, the latter two "manufactured" sources of water supply, although weather-resistant, are capital- and energy-intensive and correspondingly costlier.
Even then, Singapore's water future lies, without a doubt, with re-use and desalination. We estimate that NEWater and desalination together will have to provide for 85 per cent of Singapore's water needs come 2061 when imports cease and demand is double today's.
So PUB possesses every incentive to find new and better means of desalinating seawater and reclaiming waste water in order to continually lower our cost of production.
DEEPEST THING IN THE GROUND

Deep sewerage tunnels are one of these ways. At the turn of the millennium, waste water re-use technology, principally through the use of reverse osmosis, had become practicable and gave us the opportunity to produce ultra-high-quality recycled water on an industrial scale. This of course meant that sewage was not just waste water any more, but would become a major source of potable water for us. These developments drove Singapore to become one of the earliest adopters of a deep tunnel sewerage system (DTSS).
The initial portion of Singapore's DTSS was completed in 2008. Unbeknown to most, deep inside the ground is a 6m-wide tunnel that criss-crosses Singapore from Kranji to Changi. Along the way, with the help of gravity, it silently picks up and delivers a tremendous amount of sewage.
At the end of its 48km traverse near to Changi Airport, the DTSS tunnel reaches 50m - more than 20 storeys - underground and shifts nearly a million tons of waste water a day. Massive pumps bring the sewage to the surface to be treated in the Changi Water Reclamation Plant. The resulting effluent is then moved to the neighbouring Changi NEWater factory and further polished to potable quality.
PUB is busy preparing to commence the second leg of the Singapore DTSS, this time running another large sewerage tunnel from downtown westwards all the way to Tuas. When this is completed in a decade, the two tunnels joined up, and state-of-the-art water reclamation and NEWater plants brought online at Tuas, PUB will, literally, be able to collect every drop of waste water and turn it into sweet water again, achieving our aim of endlessly recycling the H2O molecule.
Singapore's DTSS is a marvel of modern engineering, allowing us to efficiently convey a whole country's worth of sewage at minimal expense. It is also a terrific example of how science and new technology, combined with ingenuity and determination, have allowed us to greatly reduce the cost of water husbandry.
LONG-TERM SUSTAINABILITY

What was scarce may be turned into plenty; what was costly can also be made inexpensive. But how do we keep it going? Long sustainability dictates that our water system must endure, and not become too delicate or cumbersome to operate after a time.
There is rain. Rain falls and becomes storm water. Storm water is collected in drains, channelled to reservoirs and stored. Stored rainwater is made potable and supplied to people, commerce and industry.
As PUB supplies good water, water that has been used is returned to us. That used water is collected, treated and turned into good water again, ready to be consumed or squirrelled away in reservoirs. At the same time, seawater is de-salted, turned into good water and fed into the loop.
The water loop is simple enough, but it is still the norm that it be administered in separate pieces. In most places, the water department is separate from the sewerage department, which is separate again from the drainage department. And invariably, all three will work at cross-purposes.
Singapore's secret to a sustainable water supply, however, is to manage the entire water system as an integrated whole. For PUB, supplying good water, reclaiming used water and taming storm water are three legs that hold up a unitary mission.
Looking ahead, climate change is, quite conceivably, the biggest threat to the continued sustainability of Singapore's water system. Global warming, permanently elevated sea levels, and alternating drought and deluge will eventually destroy our water infrastructure if we choose to sit on our hands.
We have to assess and be prepared for a distinctly riskier future. And there is certainly no time to waste in implementing the necessary adaptive and mitigatory measures that will safeguard our water supply system from the climate effects to come.
HOW DOES SINGAPORE DO IT?

Despite severely limiting geographic constraints, today's Singapore is not short of water. We can be confident that the country will continue to be water-sufficient in the long run. This makes Singapore unique and the subject of close study by the many thousands who are now convened in our city-state for the Singapore International Water Week this week.
Because we cannot afford to be caught without enough water, or have sewage overflowing onto our streets, or floods inundate our city, Singapore takes an uncommonly long view when it comes to water management, planning decades ahead. Indeed, for as long as we remain clear-eyed and hard-nosed about our country's water situation, and execute our water strategy relentlessly, there should always be enough water.

• The writer is chief executive of PUB, Singapore's National Water Agency.
• The Singapore International Water Week is from today to Thursday. It is a global platform to share and co-create innovative water solutions.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Breakdown at current prices for the various sources of water:

Johor water under the agreement - 0.2 kilowatt hr at 25.6 cents per KWh = 5.12 cents per cubic m
Newater - 1.0 kilowatt hr at 25.6 cents per KWh = 25.6 cents per cubic m
Desalination water - 3.5 kilowatt hr at 25.6 cents per KWh = 89.6 cents per cubic m

Not added to this cost is:

3 sens per 1000 imperial gallons or 4.546 cubic m for raw water
$billions of dollars to build the newater and desalination plants.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Overcoming scarcity? Same thing with people. Too little qualified professionals? Bring in the Malaysians, the Burmese, the pinoys, the Brahmins. Plenty from where that came from. No need to be held hostage by sinkie ingrates.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

It will definitely be cheaper to buy water from Johor than to rely on Newater and desalination. However, we do need to have contingency plans in case Malaysia tears up the water treaties. From time to time, their politicians have threatened to renege on the water treaties in order to make their own country look more Islamic. We cannot depend on other people's promises for our own security. Just look at Ukraine, which trusted both Russia and NATO to protect it once it dismantled its nukes.

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

The biggest joke is not only is it expensive to do NEWater. But many factories have installed separate pipping system to use NEWater. And get this, it's used to water landscape, toilets and other industrial use! Crazy! It would be much easier and cheaper to use normal tap water! But everyone was told to support NEWater and everyone Kwai Kwai obeyed. But we all assumed NEWater will be cheaper ...Guess we got fooled!

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Newater that goes into commercial and industrial does not attract conservation tax and therefore cheaper.

enterprise2 said:

The biggest joke is not only is it expensive to do NEWater. But many factories have installed separate pipping system to use NEWater. And get this, it's used to water landscape, toilets and other industrial use! Crazy! It would be much easier and cheaper to use normal tap water! But everyone was told to support NEWater and everyone Kwai Kwai obeyed. But we all assumed NEWater will be cheaper ...Guess we got fooled!

Click to expand...

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

scroobal said:

Newater that goes into commercial and industrial does not attract conservation tax and therefore cheaper.

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U never factor in all the infrastructure costs ..separate pipings, pumps..etc

Re: Water Treaty Malaysia: The tremendous financial costs imposed on S'pore by LKY's

Papsmearer said:

There is a recent news report by Shit Times bragging about the fact that singapore is achieving water independence soon. As part of this article, the shit times revealed the cost of the various sources of water. As you know there are 3 water sources. rainwater from Johore under the water treaty. Newater and Desalination water. It turns out that Newater cost 5000 times more to produce then the treated water from Johor!! And Desalination water costs 17,500 times more to produce then the Johor water!!! Holy fuck, we are going broke just trying to produce water for ourselves, thanks to Old Fart's bloody ego and pissing contest with Mahathir. One idiot does not seem to realize that the other idiot had him by his short hairs. Even if Malaysia wanted 10 times more money for the raw water then what we were currently paying at that time, it would have been well worth it. this is a scandal and no oppo seems to have wanted to find out at that time, and Old fart was made out to be the hero for standing up to Malaysia's "unreasonable" demands, when in actual fact, he was the big villain.

What did Malaysia want?

In 1998, They wanted financial loans from singapore to help them out during the Asian crisis. Old fart did not give them the loans but later on, gave large loans totalling $10 billion directly to Indonesia, bypassing the IMF. Immediately, this got Mahathir riled up. More and more items were added to the water negotiations resulting in an unwieldy package. For example, Singapore wanted to add the ability of the RSAF to overfly Malaysian airspace on its way to the training areas in the south china sea, while malaysia wanted to talk about developing the parcels of land they owned in malaysia and the relocation of the tanjong pagar railway station. As well, the malaysians felt that the water sales priced negotiated by the Brits before they left was too low and water to open up the contract again. mahathir also wanted the CPF board to allow western malaysians to withdraw their CPF from singapore. Also added to the package later was the replacement of the Causeway by a bridge or underground rail tunnel. All these points are reasonable.

Not allowing western malaysians to withdraw their CPF while other foreign workers can, is ridiculous and biased. this was a reasonable request on the part of the malaysians. Giving the malaysians more money for the current water contract is also fair in my opinion, provided that the water treaty was in exhange, renewed for another 100 years or something like that. But we are not privileged to what was discussed between Old fart and mahathir, however, we know the cost to us today.

I have posted in the past before how Newater and desalinization will bankrupt us. this is the first time I have seen the proof in the shit times. What kind of idiot leadership would engage in a battle of egos and cost singaporeans 5000-17500 times the price of water. This does not include the capital costs in the billions $ needed to start up the desalinization and newater plants. How much money could have been saved by the economy as a whole if we had just used or renewed the existing water agreements at that time? Now that old fart is dead, we may never know wha transpired. Thanks ah gong for screwing us over. You really were a gong kia.

http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/how-singapore-will-never-go-thirsty

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it's like cutting off one's nose to spite your enemy. Costs is one thing but health is even more important. drinking newater is like drinking piss mixed with shit. you forgot one important aspect. they tried bottling it like mineral water and get NTUC to sell it (the most audacious and idiotic idea from some PUB moron) but no takers. millions of bottles were given out to school children to drink but it failed so miserably that overnight the botlling plant has to close. to save face they dump millions of gallons into reservoir every day and then said the project was a success. what a joke.