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MINDEF blames deceased soldier instead of accepting responsibility

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
otehrwise why throw 6. throwing 2 or 3 is already too much. even normal people would suffocate. throwing 6 is a definite overkill!!!

It has always been a culture and practice to use up all ammo issued so that post training / post exercise administration will not be a chore, i.e. no need to check, count and return unused blanks, smoke grenades, and other type of ammo issued and sign and certify forms, etc after a training or an exercise.

I am sure that to date, this practice and culture has not changed in the SAF.

So the PC claim that he used 6 because the air was "still" and there was insufficient wind to provide a smokescreen is more than likely a bullshit excuse.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
under played and underdeclared his asmathic condition?wtf is this bullshit?

It's pure bullshit by this half-fucked general. This is what his Minister said in Parliament on November 2012:

" The cause of death was certified by the forensic pathologist of the Health Sciences Authority (HSA) to be due to an "acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes". Zinc chloride is a primary component of smoke grenades currently used in the SAF...

...The COI found that PTE Lee’s medical classification and vocational assignment were appropriate, based on the severity and control of his asthma condition. The COI was unable to establish with certainty if PTE Lee’s history of asthma was a contributory factor to his death. "​

If that is the case as stated by Ng Eng Hen, whether the soldier "underplayed" or "underdeclared" his asthmatic condition as stated by this half-fucked general is of no relevance, i.e. unless this half-fucked general now wants to claim his Minister lied to Parliament.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Latest statement by family of Dom Lee...

https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLee/posts/1104116539632943

Following the Facebook post by Dominique’s mum, we have been surprised and touched by the show of support and words of encouragement from members of the public. We, the family, would like to sincerely thank those who have given their support and encouragement.
The family would like to clarify our position and address some of the misconceptions that have arisen due to lack of accurate information.

CI AND COI FINDINGS

MINDEF in its Facebook posting today (Key Findings from the Death of PTE Dominique Sarron Lee, 7 March 2016), stated that Dominique’s death was “unlikely to have been predicted”. If this was the case, why then is there a Training Safety Regulation to limit to 2, the number of smoke grenades to be used in the specific exercise that Dominique was involved in to begin with? How did SAF decide on this limit as being within safety regulation of such an exercise?

MINDEF has also repeatedly iterated that the coroner had noted that Dominique “had under played and under declared his asthmatic condition.” Yet the coroner had also opined that asthma had a weak correlation to the allergic reaction that Dominique suffered in the exercise. Furthermore, the Minister for Defence himself had said that even those without asthma may be affected by the effects of zinc chloride. So our question is, did Dominique’s alleged under play and under declaration of his condition contribute directly to his untimely demise? Our layman conclusion is that it does not.

In the Facebook statement, MINDEF stated that “the coroner noted that more smoke grenades than necessary were used during the exercise, but could not ascertain whether the acute allergic reaction was due to concentration and/or the mere exposure of zinc chloride fumes”. We had learnt anecdotally from SAF personnel, immediately after the tragic incident, that Dominique had taken part in a similar exercise before where the TSR had not been breached. This to us, suggests that the fatal allergic reaction occurred due to concentration of rather than mere exposure to zinc chloride fumes, which brings us back to the question of MINDEF’s TSR of 2 smoke grenades as being within safety limits. If the safety hazard has to do with mere exposure to zinc chloride fumes, then the regulation on the number of smoke grenades would be irrelevant as the grenades should not even be in use at all. In that regard, we would like to ask MINDEF about the new N452 smoke grenades that have be introduced since the incident. How are they an improvement to the previous smoke grenades? Has any test been done to ascertain if the concentration and/or mere exposure to the fumes would result in acute allergic reaction? Can MINDEF/SAF share the safety aspect(s) of such an assessment (if any) with the public? What are the chemical compound(s) found in these new smoke grenades?

It is a fact that Dom died from the effects of the smoke grenades thrown. It is also a fact that the number of smoke grenades thrown exceeded thrice the safety limits. We do not know how more direct a link one can infer from this, about the factors leading to Dominique’s untimely death. The Coroner’s Inquiry is to ascertain the cause of death. The Coroner’s Inquiry does not determine whether or not the 2 officers or MINDEF is/are culpable or not. Can MINDEF kindly make this point clear in its statement? The Minister for Defence, in his Parliamentary Statement in November 2012, stated that the COI concluded that the two officers were negligent. But in the Facebook statement, BG Chan stated that the COI “did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death”. Can MINDEF again, kindly clarify if the Ministerial Statement or the Facebook statement was erroneous?

ACCOUNTABILITY OF MINDEF/SAF

MINDEF/SAF has not apologized formally to the family for the incident resulting in Dominique’s death. We had previously requested that the Minister for Defence offer the apology directly to Dominique’s mum as acknowledgement of the negligence on their part, and of the grief she has suffered, but we were rebuffed. We were told by the MINDEF representative, in no uncertain terms, that the Minister will never apologise for the incident, nor will any senior official from MINDEF/SAF.
Subsequently, we offered an olive branch to MINDEF. Instead of the personal apology, we requested for MINDEF to pay for Dom’s tomb as a symbolic gesture, but this was again rejected. Legal constraints were cited as the reason for the rejection. It is only today (7 March 2016) that we see the first statement of apology from MINDEF in their Facebook statement addressed to the general public.

We have repeatedly asked for details on how the two officers have been dealt with as the Minister for Defence had said in Parliament in November 2012, that they had been negligent in their duties. The COI had also found that they did not comply with safety regulations.

We are not out to persecute the two officers, nor asking for them to be crucified. We do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are only asking for MINDEF/SAF to be accountable. Minister K. Shanmugam himself had said in Parliament in May 2012, that “justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done”. But MINDEF/SAF has thus far, refused to show us how the justice has been done. All we know for sure from recent Facebook postings by netizens, is that one of the officers was promoted in July 2014. To our layman understanding, this seems to be a contradiction of the assurances by MINDEF/SAF that the negligent officers have been duly dealt with, that justice has been done.

Could MINDEF kindly clarify their statement in the Facebook posting, that ‘‘administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers” have been taken? Please inform the public how the two officers have been “punished according to military law” so that the public can see for themselves that the justice has been served, and not just know it to have been served.

IMPROVEMENTS TO SAFETY

It is of small comfort to the family to know that following Dominique’s death, improvements have been made to ensure the safety of all National Service men, with “the setting up of a Safety and Systems Review Directorate, the convening of a Respiratory Medicine Specialist Advisory Board to review medical classification Asthma, and the deploying of more safety officers on the ground as full-time Unit Safety Officers”, as well as the introduction of “new N452 grenades … to replace the smoke grenades used in that training exercise”. We wish all these safety measures had been in place sooner so that it would not have taken a death, Dominique’s death, for the SAF to realize their lapses in ensuring the safety of all National Service men.

SUPPORT FOR THE FAMILY

MINDEF’s statement revealed that we had “previously taken out a pre-action discovery application, which [we] subsequently withdrew” and that the court had “awarded costs to MINDEF”, which they had waived. What the statement does not mention is the fact that the said application was withdrawn because we accepted the AGC’s request to enter a mediation with MINDEF, and the agreement was made on the condition that the legal fees were waived. The mediation did not go as planned as MINDEF was not willing to accede to our request for either the Minister to apologise to the family or MINDEF to pay for Dominique’s tomb. Left with no other recourse, the family made the difficult decision of seeking redress in a civilian court.

We would like to clarify that this law suit has never been about money. It has always been about getting answers to our questions. We would not have taken the legal route had MINDEF been fully “committed to assisting and providing” us with the answers we seek.

To concerned members of the public, we would like to clarify that to date, we have not accepted nor received any compensation from MINDEF/SAF for Dominique’s untimely demise. The family has repeatedly rejected offers from MINDEF/SAF to discuss monetary compensation. We have only accepted a funeral grant to defray the cost of the funeral, on the same day Dominique was sent back home in a coffin. This grant, according to the SAF, is not part of the compensation.

Finally, we would like to appeal to the public be fair to Dr Chee Soon Juan. We had initiated the meeting with Dr Chee as we are at our wit’s end. We do not intend nor wish for this to be a political issue. We had, over the past 3 years, approached no less than 4 PAP MPs, including an anchor Minister and a GPC Chairman for their assistance. We had even written to the Prime Minister several times, pleading for help in getting answers. All they did was to direct our questions to MINDEF for their reply. Such help is as useful to us, as a comb is to Michael Jordan. We are not siding with any political party; we are just seeking answers to get some closure. We only seek accountability from MINDEF and SAF.

We are not asking Singaporeans to change the government; We are asking Singaporeans to demand that the government change the laws to achieve “justice and equality” for all. How can we continue to trust the government when we now know that they have set lower standards of accountability for themselves in law, when In fact they should set higher standards for themselves?

Unlike MINDEF, we do not have a team of lawyers or PR personnel to craft out statements. While their spin doctors spin ambiguities to manage the fiasco that they have created for themselves through their high-handed handling of our case, we can only rely on our own heartfelt responses to speak about what we intrinsically know to be an injustice to not just us, but the people of Singapore. We lay all our cards on the table. MINDEF, we ask that you do the same. Please be transparent. We do not think that Dominique’s death is in any way a matter of national security that requires secrecy. While you are at it, kindly, with our permission, reveal to the public the compensation that you had intended to offer the family, so that all Singaporeans will know how much the life of a promising young man is worth to MINDEF.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
It has always been a culture and practice to use up all ammo issued so that post training / post exercise administration will not be a chore, i.e. no need to check, count and return unused blanks, smoke grenades, and other type of ammo issued and sign and certify forms, etc after a training or an exercise.

I am sure that to date, this practice and culture has not changed in the SAF.

So the PC claim that he used 6 because the air was "still" and there was insufficient wind to provide a smokescreen is more than likely a bullshit excuse.

The coroner said that there was enough smoke and thus was not necessary to use so many smoke grenades.
If the safety regulations stipulate 2 grenades to be used and the officers chose to ignore that, then they are criminally liable. Likewise, MINDEF.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
It's pure bullshit by this half-fucked general. This is what his Minister said in Parliament on November 2012:

" The cause of death was certified by the forensic pathologist of the Health Sciences Authority (HSA) to be due to an "acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes". Zinc chloride is a primary component of smoke grenades currently used in the SAF...

...The COI found that PTE Lee’s medical classification and vocational assignment were appropriate, based on the severity and control of his asthma condition. The COI was unable to establish with certainty if PTE Lee’s history of asthma was a contributory factor to his death. "​

If that is the case as stated by Ng Eng Hen, whether the soldier "underplayed" or "underdeclared" his asthmatic condition as stated by this half-fucked general is of no relevance, i.e. unless this half-fucked general now wants to claim his Minister lied to Parliament.

Asthma is a respiratory disease ...of course, inhalation of foreign substance will affect the asthmatic individual. Goodness me, simple thing like that ...also cannot understand.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Latest statement by family of Dom Lee...

https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLee/posts/1104116539632943

Following the Facebook post by Dominique’s mum, we have been surprised and touched by the show of support and words of encouragement from members of the public. We, the family, would like to sincerely thank those who have given their support and encouragement.
The family would like to clarify our position and address some of the misconceptions that have arisen due to lack of accurate information.

CI AND COI FINDINGS

MINDEF in its Facebook posting today (Key Findings from the Death of PTE Dominique Sarron Lee, 7 March 2016), stated that Dominique’s death was “unlikely to have been predicted”. If this was the case, why then is there a Training Safety Regulation to limit to 2, the number of smoke grenades to be used in the specific exercise that Dominique was involved in to begin with? How did SAF decide on this limit as being within safety regulation of such an exercise?

MINDEF has also repeatedly iterated that the coroner had noted that Dominique “had under played and under declared his asthmatic condition.” Yet the coroner had also opined that asthma had a weak correlation to the allergic reaction that Dominique suffered in the exercise. Furthermore, the Minister for Defence himself had said that even those without asthma may be affected by the effects of zinc chloride. So our question is, did Dominique’s alleged under play and under declaration of his condition contribute directly to his untimely demise? Our layman conclusion is that it does not.

In the Facebook statement, MINDEF stated that “the coroner noted that more smoke grenades than necessary were used during the exercise, but could not ascertain whether the acute allergic reaction was due to concentration and/or the mere exposure of zinc chloride fumes”. We had learnt anecdotally from SAF personnel, immediately after the tragic incident, that Dominique had taken part in a similar exercise before where the TSR had not been breached. This to us, suggests that the fatal allergic reaction occurred due to concentration of rather than mere exposure to zinc chloride fumes, which brings us back to the question of MINDEF’s TSR of 2 smoke grenades as being within safety limits. If the safety hazard has to do with mere exposure to zinc chloride fumes, then the regulation on the number of smoke grenades would be irrelevant as the grenades should not even be in use at all. In that regard, we would like to ask MINDEF about the new N452 smoke grenades that have be introduced since the incident. How are they an improvement to the previous smoke grenades? Has any test been done to ascertain if the concentration and/or mere exposure to the fumes would result in acute allergic reaction? Can MINDEF/SAF share the safety aspect(s) of such an assessment (if any) with the public? What are the chemical compound(s) found in these new smoke grenades?

It is a fact that Dom died from the effects of the smoke grenades thrown. It is also a fact that the number of smoke grenades thrown exceeded thrice the safety limits. We do not know how more direct a link one can infer from this, about the factors leading to Dominique’s untimely death. The Coroner’s Inquiry is to ascertain the cause of death. The Coroner’s Inquiry does not determine whether or not the 2 officers or MINDEF is/are culpable or not. Can MINDEF kindly make this point clear in its statement? The Minister for Defence, in his Parliamentary Statement in November 2012, stated that the COI concluded that the two officers were negligent. But in the Facebook statement, BG Chan stated that the COI “did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee’s death”. Can MINDEF again, kindly clarify if the Ministerial Statement or the Facebook statement was erroneous?

ACCOUNTABILITY OF MINDEF/SAF

MINDEF/SAF has not apologized formally to the family for the incident resulting in Dominique’s death. We had previously requested that the Minister for Defence offer the apology directly to Dominique’s mum as acknowledgement of the negligence on their part, and of the grief she has suffered, but we were rebuffed. We were told by the MINDEF representative, in no uncertain terms, that the Minister will never apologise for the incident, nor will any senior official from MINDEF/SAF.
Subsequently, we offered an olive branch to MINDEF. Instead of the personal apology, we requested for MINDEF to pay for Dom’s tomb as a symbolic gesture, but this was again rejected. Legal constraints were cited as the reason for the rejection. It is only today (7 March 2016) that we see the first statement of apology from MINDEF in their Facebook statement addressed to the general public.

We have repeatedly asked for details on how the two officers have been dealt with as the Minister for Defence had said in Parliament in November 2012, that they had been negligent in their duties. The COI had also found that they did not comply with safety regulations.

We are not out to persecute the two officers, nor asking for them to be crucified. We do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are only asking for MINDEF/SAF to be accountable. Minister K. Shanmugam himself had said in Parliament in May 2012, that “justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done”. But MINDEF/SAF has thus far, refused to show us how the justice has been done. All we know for sure from recent Facebook postings by netizens, is that one of the officers was promoted in July 2014. To our layman understanding, this seems to be a contradiction of the assurances by MINDEF/SAF that the negligent officers have been duly dealt with, that justice has been done.

Could MINDEF kindly clarify their statement in the Facebook posting, that ‘‘administrative and disciplinary action against the two officers” have been taken? Please inform the public how the two officers have been “punished according to military law” so that the public can see for themselves that the justice has been served, and not just know it to have been served.

IMPROVEMENTS TO SAFETY

It is of small comfort to the family to know that following Dominique’s death, improvements have been made to ensure the safety of all National Service men, with “the setting up of a Safety and Systems Review Directorate, the convening of a Respiratory Medicine Specialist Advisory Board to review medical classification Asthma, and the deploying of more safety officers on the ground as full-time Unit Safety Officers”, as well as the introduction of “new N452 grenades … to replace the smoke grenades used in that training exercise”. We wish all these safety measures had been in place sooner so that it would not have taken a death, Dominique’s death, for the SAF to realize their lapses in ensuring the safety of all National Service men.

SUPPORT FOR THE FAMILY

MINDEF’s statement revealed that we had “previously taken out a pre-action discovery application, which [we] subsequently withdrew” and that the court had “awarded costs to MINDEF”, which they had waived. What the statement does not mention is the fact that the said application was withdrawn because we accepted the AGC’s request to enter a mediation with MINDEF, and the agreement was made on the condition that the legal fees were waived. The mediation did not go as planned as MINDEF was not willing to accede to our request for either the Minister to apologise to the family or MINDEF to pay for Dominique’s tomb. Left with no other recourse, the family made the difficult decision of seeking redress in a civilian court.

We would like to clarify that this law suit has never been about money. It has always been about getting answers to our questions. We would not have taken the legal route had MINDEF been fully “committed to assisting and providing” us with the answers we seek.

To concerned members of the public, we would like to clarify that to date, we have not accepted nor received any compensation from MINDEF/SAF for Dominique’s untimely demise. The family has repeatedly rejected offers from MINDEF/SAF to discuss monetary compensation. We have only accepted a funeral grant to defray the cost of the funeral, on the same day Dominique was sent back home in a coffin. This grant, according to the SAF, is not part of the compensation.

Finally, we would like to appeal to the public be fair to Dr Chee Soon Juan. We had initiated the meeting with Dr Chee as we are at our wit’s end. We do not intend nor wish for this to be a political issue. We had, over the past 3 years, approached no less than 4 PAP MPs, including an anchor Minister and a GPC Chairman for their assistance. We had even written to the Prime Minister several times, pleading for help in getting answers. All they did was to direct our questions to MINDEF for their reply. Such help is as useful to us, as a comb is to Michael Jordan. We are not siding with any political party; we are just seeking answers to get some closure. We only seek accountability from MINDEF and SAF.

We are not asking Singaporeans to change the government; We are asking Singaporeans to demand that the government change the laws to achieve “justice and equality” for all. How can we continue to trust the government when we now know that they have set lower standards of accountability for themselves in law, when In fact they should set higher standards for themselves?

Unlike MINDEF, we do not have a team of lawyers or PR personnel to craft out statements. While their spin doctors spin ambiguities to manage the fiasco that they have created for themselves through their high-handed handling of our case, we can only rely on our own heartfelt responses to speak about what we intrinsically know to be an injustice to not just us, but the people of Singapore. We lay all our cards on the table. MINDEF, we ask that you do the same. Please be transparent. We do not think that Dominique’s death is in any way a matter of national security that requires secrecy. While you are at it, kindly, with our permission, reveal to the public the compensation that you had intended to offer the family, so that all Singaporeans will know how much the life of a promising young man is worth to MINDEF.

If the Taiwanese President can apologize, why can't our Defence Minister do likewise? They are not even asking the PM to apologize.
Criminal charges were laid and two senior officers were imprisoned in the Taiwanese case. In sinkapore, the court covers the government butt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hung_Chung-chiu
 

MovieStar

Alfrescian
Loyal
If the Taiwanese President can apologize, why can't our Defence Minister do likewise? They are not even asking the PM to apologize.
Criminal charges were laid and two senior officers were imprisoned in the Taiwanese case. In sinkapore, the court covers the government butt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hung_Chung-chiu

If they willing to apologize then many others case they also have to apologize.
Including my case.
 

yahoo55

Alfrescian
Loyal
The last 3 years, the family had approached 4 PAP MPs including their GRC anchor minister and a GPC Chairman, and also LHL for help, but they all rejected them and redirect them to MINDEF. That's why the family approached CSJ for help. PAP MPs and Ministers are so fucking overpaid and useless bums to their constituents, all siam from helping the dead boy's family, such that the family had to turn to the opposition for help.

Finally, we would like to appeal to the public be fair to Dr Chee Soon Juan. We had initiated the meeting with Dr Chee as we are at our wit’s end. We do not intend nor wish for this to be a political issue. We had, over the past 3 years, approached no less than 4 PAP MPs, including an anchor Minister and a GPC Chairman for their assistance. We had even written to the Prime Minister several times, pleading for help in getting answers. All they did was to direct our questions to MINDEF for their reply. Such help is as useful to us, as a comb is to Michael Jordan. We are not siding with any political party; we are just seeking answers to get some closure. We only seek accountability from MINDEF and SAF.


Chee Soon Juan' FB response after reading the family's open letter. When Ang Moh foreigner write to LHL, he gets an immediate response from LHL for assistance, but when Sinkie citizens Dominique Lee's family writes several times to LHL for help, kena rejected by LHL every time. PAP is really a fuckup party, a bunch of very overpaid lazy useless bums. Song boh 69% Sinkies, you voted for this PAP shit.

https://www.facebook.com/cheesoonjuan/

Chee Soon Juan

Yesterday at 4:07pm · Singapore ·
..

Tesla car manufacturer Elon Musk says that he had called PM Lee about the $15,000-surcharge for electric vehicles in Singapore and that Lee had told him that “he would investigate the situation”. If this is true, it is commendable that the PM responded so promptly to Musk's request.

But this morning I also read that Dominique Lee's family had written – repeatedly – to Mr Lee: “We had even written to the Prime Minister several times, pleading for help in getting answers. All they did was to direct our questions to MINDEF for their reply. Such help is as useful to us, as a comb is to Michael Jordan.”

And then there's Benjamin Lim's case. We haven't heard anything from Mr Lee on the unfortunate death of the boy. Why did the PM not weigh in on the matter when it was raised in Parliament? Was he even present?

Mr Lee must remember that he is Dominique's Prime Minister, he is Benjamin's Prime Mnister, he is our Prime Minister. He is not Elon's Prime Minister.

I hope Mr Lee will respond to this awkward situation.
 

Boliao

Alfrescian
Loyal
If the Taiwanese President can apologize, why can't our Defence Minister do likewise? They are not even asking the PM to apologize.
Criminal charges were laid and two senior officers were imprisoned in the Taiwanese case. In sinkapore, the court covers the government butt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hung_Chung-chiu

PM will only apologize and even shed a few tears.. before election. Don't complain. Majority of Singaporeans think this is okay.
 

yahoo55

Alfrescian
Loyal
I truly admire Dominique’s mother's determination and perseverance to seek justice, enduring 3 years of futility is a long time, most Sinkie parents would have given up fighting the overwhelming PAP machinery. Unbelievable that the judge threw out the case and ordered the family to pay MINDEF. Where is the justice for Sinkies? the judge is really fuckup, looks like a PAP stooge trying to protect his highly paid ricebowl.
 

MovieStar

Alfrescian
Loyal
Btw asthma still have to go NS?
the boy should say NO to any activity/procedure that harm his health. Now too late to say.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I truly admire Dominique’s mother's determination and perseverance to seek justice, enduring 3 years of futility is a long time, most Sinkie parents would have given up fighting the overwhelming PAP machinery. Unbelievable that the judge threw out the case and ordered the family to pay MINDEF. Where is the justice for Sinkies? the judge is really fuckup, looks like a PAP stooge trying to protect his highly paid ricebowl.

The positive side of that ruling is that now sinkees know that MINDEF doesn't give a damn about the soldiers. MINDEF has NO legal obligation to take care of our soldiers.

Now that is clear, it is up to sinkees to decide if they want to serve the country that doesn't give a damn about them.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
If they willing to apologize then many others case they also have to apologize.
Including my case.

They need to do more than apologizing. They need to prosecute a few of them and then pay at least $1 million to the family. The defence minister should also resign.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Here is the inside track. I do however acknowledge and accept that many in this forum will treat this as speculation, gossip and conjecture unless it is officially published in the Toa Payoh Brothel press and tangible evidence presented directly at their doorstep.

1. Mindef has been successfully sued before by the families of NS men and I am referring to cases where the families have not accepted settlement. Compensation have been increased substantially by the High Court as a result including one case where a soldier was found unconscious and now remains in a vegetative state but the circumstances leading to it remains a mystery to this day (no evidence of Mindef wrong-doing but it occurred while in their care). So not sure why the so called legal eagles here are offering views that seems misplaced at best.
2. No public servant is above the law and the state has prosecuted them for all sorts of matters including negligence over the years. Hendon Camp death, multiple deaths from Naval vessel collision with cargo ship, death of Guardsmen from premature release of rappelling etc have led to AG prosecuting them successfully and the cases were handled by the Police.
3. Mindef like the Government is at their usual best, omitting material fact and that half baked general is making matters worse. If they can call flood ponding, you know the rest.
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.
6. Someone sensible should point to a decent experienced lawyer whose has history in this and start re-negotiation and sue for high compensation thru the courts. The additional money can pay for the tomb if they prefer.
7. It should be noted that the Malay Captain has volunteered to waive the $6000 and will bear the legal charges himself. I am sure he knows that he made an error, underwent the trauma of a disciplinary process, records marked more or less for life yet found it in his heart to make the gesture. Short of he giving his life, i am not sure what else he can do.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
Welcome back! :wink:

And kudos to Chee Soon Juan for speaking up. :biggrin:

Here is the inside track. I do however acknowledge and accept that many in this forum will treat this as speculation, gossip and conjecture unless it is officially published in the Toa Payoh Brothel press and tangible evidence presented directly at their doorstep.

1. Mindef has been successfully sued before by the families of NS men and I am referring to cases where the families have not accepted settlement. Compensation have been increased substantially by the High Court as a result including one case where a soldier was found unconscious and now remains in a vegetative state but the circumstances leading to it remains a mystery to this day (no evidence of Mindef wrong-doing but it occurred while in their care). So not sure why the so called legal eagles here are offering views that seems misplaced at best.
2. No public servant is above the law and the state has prosecuted them for all sorts of matters including negligence over the years. Hendon Camp death, multiple deaths from Naval vessel collision with cargo ship, death of Guardsmen from premature release of rappelling etc have led to AG prosecuting them successfully and the cases were handled by the Police.
3. Mindef like the Government is at their usual best, omitting material fact and that half baked general is making matters worse. If they can call flood ponding, you know the rest.
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.
6. Someone sensible should point to a decent experienced lawyer whose has history in this and start re-negotiation and sue for high compensation thru the courts. The additional money can pay for the tomb if they prefer.
7. It should be noted that the Malay Captain has volunteered to waive the $6000 and will bear the legal charges himself. I am sure he knows that he made an error, underwent the trauma of a disciplinary process, records marked more or less for life yet found it in his heart to make the gesture. Short of he giving his life, i am not sure what else he can do.
 

blissquek

Alfrescian
Loyal
The thick-skulled PC threw 3 times the number of smoke grenades permitted probably to torture the recruit. Not uncommon as I have seen such sadistic buggers in the army who likes to vent their anger on the poor recruits. alot of these bastards are the minority races. remember the commandos recruit dunking death incidents. the culprit is a shit skin.
Now this malay PC bugger must have a thing against that recruit and probably wanted revenge on taht recruit. otehrwise why throw 6. throwing 2 or 3 is already too much. even normal people would suffocate. throwing 6 is a definite overkill!!! no pun intended. anybody would have breathing and lung problems and even die even without asthma. There is no other reason to throw 6 grenades at one go!!! worse than haze. these smoke grenade's smoke from 1 alone is so thick so that it can camouflage the shouldier. throwing 6 is to cause the recruit breathing problems. I am sure he knows about it and intend to sabo the recruit . unfortunately that poor cahp also has asthma and died from the massive inhalation. that's my view which is most plausible.


Not uncommon as I have seen such sadistic buggers in the army who likes to vent their anger on the poor recruits

As parents we must put our feet firmly on the ground to protect our son..

In my case, my son called when he was forced to carry two heavy load of jelly can..
He has back problem. This happen in his first week of basic training..The over enthusiastic sergeant
made him do this..How can I let another person to ruin my son"s life for his mis-judgment or moment's folly.??

I spent the next 2 hours calling his camp...MO, Platoon commander and CO telling them.. I DO NOT WANT THEM TO SEND MY SON BACK ON A WHEELCHAIR..

He was then graded PES C and did clerical work for his NS stint.

Now he leads a normal life instead on being in a wheel-chair...
 

Lizzert

Alfrescian
Loyal
Even tho I sympathize with the family's loss, I am glad this episode has brought many things into perspective
and Sinkies can ponder
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
4. This family is very unusual and I am being kind here. From the onset, their demands have been all over the shop and people dealing with them believe that someone is stirring the pot and this may not be in the interest of the family. They want the Minister to personally apologise and Mindef pay for the tomb. I suppose they next want Tony Tan to lead the funeral band in full state regalia and twirling baton. They also want Mindef to state a figure but they themselves do not want to state a figure. Claims that he is going to be the future goalkeeper for Singapore has been bandied around after his schoolboy sprinting potential was overshadowed by others and therefore his net worth ....etc etc. In their Facebook, they mentioned that they are not after money and no intention to crucify the 2 Capts. Then what the hell do they want exactly.
5. Going to Chee is their biggest mistake. It also lends credibility to the original suspicion in some quarters that this was politically motivated and the family is mere pawns.
7. It should be noted that the Malay Captain has volunteered to waive the $6000 and will bear the legal charges himself. I am sure he knows that he made an error, underwent the trauma of a disciplinary process, records marked more or less for life yet found it in his heart to make the gesture. Short of he giving his life, i am not sure what else he can do.



Welcome back, and interesting perspective on the issue, scroo. The family's behaviour is not that unusual IMO, and it's part and parcel of the psychology of grief which makes you do haphazard things. So they are pretty hard pressed in explaining why they are doing all these and it comes out as a big mumbo-jumbo.

Chee couldn't have been their first choice. They must have gone to other parties, WP presumably, got rejected, and then turned to Chee. Momentous error and they effectively politicized their own grief in the worst possible manner. But again, this is what grief does to human beings and I can understand.
 
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yahoo55

Alfrescian
Loyal
PAP controlled MSM such as Straits Times have been so fucking one sided, they only published MINDEF and Ng Eng Hen's responses but completely silent on the dead boy's family's statements. Seems like the MSM is trying to cover up for PAP and MINDEF.

Fortunately we have online media such as TOC to provide Sinkie peasants a media outlet to spread awareness and counter against PAP's MSM propaganda machinery like the Straits Times.

Glad to finally see an article for the dead boy's family's response to MINDEF on TODAYonline.


http://www.todayonline.com/singapor...nique-sarron-lee-clarifies-family-late-ns-man

No compensation accepted, says family of NSF in smoke grenade case



SINGAPORE — The family of the late Private Dominique Sarron Lee has clarified that they have not accepted any compensation from the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF), apart from a grant to defray their son’s funeral costs, as they raised further questions surrounding Lee’s death following a Singapore Army statement.

In a post published on a Facebook page dedicated to Lee at around 1am today (Mar 8), the family said: “(We have) repeatedly rejected offers from MINDEF/SAF to discuss monetary compensation. We have only accepted a funeral grant to defray the cost of the funeral, on the same day Dominique was sent back home in a coffin. This grant, according to the SAF, is not part of the compensation.”

The statement came after Commander of Army Training and Doctrine Command Chan Wing Kai yesterday wrote on the Singapore Army Facebook page that the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) and the SAF have disbursed welfare grants and made an offer of compensation to the family. They declined to reveal the exact amount, “to respect privacy and maintain confidentiality”.

Lee, then a full-time national serviceman, collapsed with breathing difficulties in April 2012 during a training exercise involving six smoke grenades - thrice the limit specified in the Training Safety Regulations. The coroner’s court found that Lee, who was 21, had an acute allergic reaction to the zinc chloride in the fumes that was “unlikely to have been predicted”.

Last week, the High Court threw out a civil suit brought by Lee’s family against the SAF and two officers. Citing a provision under Section 14 of the Government Proceedings Act, the judge ruled that the defendants were indemnified from negligence suits if the deaths or injuries occurred during service, and ordered the family to pay damages.

In a Facebook post last night, Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen said that he had written to MINDEF and SAF staff about Lee’s case. “We need not add to the pain and anguish... we should waive the costs (awarded by the High Court),” he said.

No criminal charges were brought against the two officers - a platoon commander and chief safety officer - as Lee’s acute allergic reaction was “not reasonably foreseeable”, said Brigadier-General Chan. Nevertheless, the duo have been punished according to military law.

In their statement, the family pushed for clarification, pointing out that the Defence Minister said in a ministerial statement delivered in Parliament in November 2012 that a Committee of Inquiry (COI) concluded that the two officers were negligent. Yet, BG Chan wrote yesterday that the Coroner’s Inquiry and COI did not find that the two officers were “directly responsible” for Lee’s death.

They also called for details of the punishment to be made public, the family said: “We are not out to persecute the two officers, nor asking for them to be crucified. We do not believe in an eye for an eye. We are only asking for MINDEF/SAF to be accountable.”

“Please inform the public how the two officers have been ‘punished according to military law’ so that the public can see for themselves that the justice has been served, and not just know it to have been served,” they said.

The family also took issue with the coroner’s finding that Lee’s death was “unlikely to have been predicted”. If that had been the case, then why was there a need to limit the number of smoke grenades to two in the training safety regulations, they asked, adding: “How did SAF decide on this limit as being within safety regulation of such an exercise?”

“Please be transparent. We do not think that Dominique’s death is in any way a matter of national security that requires secrecy. While you’re at it, kindly, with our permission, reveal to the public the compensation that you had intended to offer the family, so that all Singaporeans will know how much the life of a promising young man is worth to MINDEF,” said the family.

When contacted on Tuesday, MINDEF declined to respond to specific queries on the statement, such as details on the punishment for the two officers.
 
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