Crumbling of Singapore?

sleaguepunter said:

art of soldiering

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You have to understand the concept of a military defence force during peacetime and during a war. Throw away that idea you have and your experience serving NS as it is wrong.

Peacetime training for all branches of a military defence force is to go through the motion and prepare each individual for their role should they be needed if war breaks out. Only in a battle can true leaders emerge and the mettle of the armed forces be tested. The training provided is to train the individual so they know what to do when they are call up should a war break out. For example, a tank driver is trained to know how to drive a tank, a rifleman on how to use a rifle, a cook on how to prepare food and a medic to give injections. What happens in the battlefield no one can foretell, but at least those who are trained are better prepared.

During the Vietnam War, do you think the Vietcongs were trained before the war began? Did they learn how to use a rifle and go to the range for practice? Yet, they were more than a match against a highly trained US Army. Think about it and try and understand why this is so.

scroobal said:

No one had a hint that a incident let alone a full scale war was going to take place.
.

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During the confrontation era, a bomb blew up 100 metres from home. The blast was powerful enough to break one of the windows.

I was too young to understand what was going on at the time. However, I was old enough to realise the significance of what I was told. The Indonesians who planted it came by boat. It took them only half an hour to get to the East Coast and by the time the bomb went off, they were safely back in Indonesia.

As a result of this little incident, I NEVER felt secure in Singapore. The neighbours have ALL the advantages when it comes to warfare both numerical and strategic. Singapore doesn't stand a chance no matter how much money we spend on defence. I'm sure LKY feels the same way.. hence the paranoia.

scroobal said:

We allow the Indonesian and Malaysian politicians and Army to come to Singapore, stay at Hyatt, encourage the management to run Brannigans and an allow international smorgasboard of pussies to look after their needs for the very same reason. We are the biggest OKT in the region so that our kids can go school and Ah Pek can go have his Kopi Kow at his neighbourhood coffeeshop.

Thats life.

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Yes, we are OKTs to the Indons and M'sians when they come to town. After chiong Lido, must arrange with mamasans for pussies and even leave some condoms in their rooms!

And when they go shopping, especially the Indons (wives included), our liaison chaps will foot the bills - golf clubs, Dunhill items, Rolexes, LVs etc. No questions asked. Staff at these outlets always smile when selected Indon and M'sian visitors are in town.

If there is war in Sg.. Just claim crippled or run back to your ancestors motherland.. Nothing to defend here, For what?

sleaguepunter said:

i agree that officer corp cannot churn out good officer in 1 year. most of us had seen it during our service on the standard of the officers be it NSF or regulars.

As for normal riflemen, one year is more than enough to train. we are not training to be delta force hor. even armour can be train in that time scale

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You really have to re-define the roles of NSF and regulars. Today, in addition to being trained to be a soldier, an NSF actually performs the duty of a regular soldier, to make up the number of a full-time army. If more regulars could be recruited to perform regular duties, while time is intensively used to train up the NSF, I believe the enlistment period can be shortened. One of the objectives of this is to reduce or eliminate the disadvantage of the male Singaporean doing full-time NS from those who do not. If the conscription period is reduced, maybe even female Singaporeans can be made to perform some appropriate form of national service maybe as cooks, nurses, admin roles. There can also be a combination of full-time conscription and intensive ICTs for the first five years. Today except for advanced training, all training is conducted during the two years' full time. Need not be that way. In other words an NSman can be operationally ready in 5 or even 7 years instead of 2 years. This will allow him to enter the job market early.

psy83 said:

If there is war in Sg.. Just claim crippled or run back to your ancestors motherland.. Nothing to defend here, For what?

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I don't have anyone that I know in my ancestor motherland. Can connect?

po2wq said:

u write laidis in bulk ... very difficult 2 read 1 leh ... :o

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when (bull)shitting, all my crap are produced in bulk.

scroobal said:

The nature of our location requires us to spend. Tomorrow a nut case in Malaysia or Indonesia decides to score vote points and launches an attack. We have no choice but have an expensive deterrent.

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In my opinion, it isn't Malaysia or Indonesia that we need to worry about: it is China. It is doubtful that Malaysia or Indonesia want to destroy their own economies (as well as Singapore's) by starting trouble. China, on the other hand, has claimed the entire South China Sea, all the way down to Brunei: http://bbc.in/sxZgaR

China needs the resources under the South China Sea to keep it's 1.3 billion people happy, since they can't change their government at the ballot box. The Communist party view access to resources as a matter of their own survival. Indeed, the PLA are on record stating that they have "a Mallaca Straits problem", meaning that Singapore (or rather Singapore's security 'guarantor', the US) controls the Straits, and therefore China's oil supply, 80% of which is shipped through the Straits.

In my opinion, the greatest potential threat to Singapore's (and regional) security is that China will start to disintegrate (a current example: Wukan) and in an attempt to distract attention from internal problems, the Party will create an external one, maybe in the South China Sea. This, in my opinion, is why the US is moving troops into Darwin, ships into Singapore, and has accepted Vietnam's offer of the Cam Ranh Bay naval base for the US Pacific fleet.

So we must all pray that China manages to keep it's people happy, and that there are no accidental confrontations between any of the players in the South China Sea. The US must also play it very cool, because it is not their backyard they are playing, it is ours. If you want to see how easliy mistakes can happen, watch "The Fog Of War: Eleven Lessons From the Life of Robert S. McNamara", which explains the Tonkin Gulf Incident, in which Vietnam supposedly fired torpedoes at a US warship, thus starting the Vietnam war. In fact, no torpedoes were fired, thus making the Vietnam war into one of history's bigger blunders.

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

scroobal said:

TT has been in SBF for a very long time. She does not talk about sex, her BF and rubbish. So she has only 49 points despite being a vet. She has also noted for her long threads because of the discussion. Years ago she related how her younger brother was suffering during his NS and she had to speak to his superiors twice. At that time she also noticed that SAF personnel can be seen at eateries, food joints and malls eating air in uniform during office hours.

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Didnt Tracy once mention abt her bf's gambling addiction? and that's why she is so against casinos in singapore?

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

ckmpd said:

Didnt Tracy once mention abt her bf's gambling addiction? and that's why she is so against casinos in singapore?

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she was coerced into offering her body as collateral for bf's last all-in bet. very predictably, her bf lost, and she had to open her precious venus fly trap. the winner must have had a heart attack after being ravaged by a raucous rancor.

Windsor said:

You have to understand the concept of a military defence force during peacetime and during a war. Throw away that idea you have and your experience serving NS as it is wrong.

Peacetime training for all branches of a military defence force is to go through the motion and prepare each individual for their role should they be needed if war breaks out. Only in a battle can true leaders emerge and the mettle of the armed forces be tested. The training provided is to train the individual so they know what to do when they are call up should a war break out. For example, a tank driver is trained to know how to drive a tank, a rifleman on how to use a rifle, a cook on how to prepare food and a medic to give injections. What happens in the battlefield no one can foretell, but at least those who are trained are better prepared.

During the Vietnam War, do you think the Vietcongs were trained before the war began? Did they learn how to use a rifle and go to the range for practice? Yet, they were more than a match against a highly trained US Army. Think about it and try and understand why this is so.

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maybe my angmo no good, i dont really understand what u disagree with me. to learn how to operate a rifle take no more than 2 hours. To know the rifle inside out will take a couple months of daily handling. to teach to fight one on one take a couple of days of intensive coaching. To have a company of 80-100 men to fight as an unit will need at least 2-3 months. A soldier dont just need to know how to shoot, it a lot more than that. everybody role in a company is different, a soldiers also need to know the roles of his fellow soldiers in order function better in an unit.

i agree some leaders only appear in the thick of the battle but some were not given a chance at all during peacetime. i dunno about you, i had seen a couple leaders during the duration of my NSF and Reservist. One is my platoon sgt, a fellow NSF and another was my CSM. Training do not only train a driver to drive the APC/Tank, it also allow the driver to anticpate potential problems and allow driver to troubleshoot vehicle fault and handle the rough terrain. i dunno about other vocations, but we in armour have a said over the mission or at least my platoon do. my PC will brief us the mission and we pengkias can give suggestions on how to execute the mission. Of course the PC can override our suggestions, but at least most of us will know what going on.

Training do help as proven by reservists outperform active NSF units who are physically better shape than the reservist. but because reservists have the advantage of experience, reservist knew the best and fastest way to deal with a test, ie.. putting a camo net over a parked APC faster and with less manpower than a active NSF unit who were only taught by CMI instructors from the SOA.

by the way, america didnt actually lose the vietnam war. NVA lost every battles it engage against the US Army. After the Tet Offensive, General Giap have no more reserves to bring the battle to the South. But because the Tet Offensive battle being broadcast on US television which result in massive anti war demostrations. the next couple of years give the north a breathing space to rebuild and rearm. by 1972, US stop all defense aid to the south vietnam govt and by 1975, South Vietnam army run out of supplies. In real sense, US army was let down by the politicians and the US public.

Fook Seng said:

You really have to re-define the roles of NSF and regulars. Today, in addition to being trained to be a soldier, an NSF actually performs the duty of a regular soldier, to make up the number of a full-time army. If more regulars could be recruited to perform regular duties, while time is intensively used to train up the NSF, I believe the enlistment period can be shortened. One of the objectives of this is to reduce or eliminate the disadvantage of the male Singaporean doing full-time NS from those who do not. If the conscription period is reduced, maybe even female Singaporeans can be made to perform some appropriate form of national service maybe as cooks, nurses, admin roles. There can also be a combination of full-time conscription and intensive ICTs for the first five years. Today except for advanced training, all training is conducted during the two years' full time. Need not be that way. In other words an NSman can be operationally ready in 5 or even 7 years instead of 2 years. This will allow him to enter the job market early.

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i find that most of us ex NSmen have a better idea how to streamline the SAF conscription system than the expensive ministars. we already fulfiled our obligations so whatever we suggest are no longer going to benefits us in any way yet those stick in the m&d die die refuse to listen. i not only want them to streamline the conscription system, i would also like to scrape the ICTs system and have a volunteer militias, something like the US national guard. $$ to fund this can be obtain by a national defense tax which volunteer are exempt from paying. ppl who dont like ICTs can dont go by contributing $$ and the $$ use to reward ppl who like the idea of being a part time soldier.

sleaguepunter said:

maybe my angmo no good, i dont really understand what u disagree with me. to learn how to operate a rifle take no more than 2 hours. To know the rifle inside out will take a couple months of daily handling. to teach to fight one on one take a couple of days of intensive coaching. To have a company of 80-100 men to fight as an unit will need at least 2-3 months. A soldier dont just need to know how to shoot, it a lot more than that. everybody role in a company is different, a soldiers also need to know the roles of his fellow soldiers in order function better in an unit.

i agree some leaders only appear in the thick of the battle but some were not given a chance at all during peacetime. i dunno about you, i had seen a couple leaders during the duration of my NSF and Reservist. One is my platoon sgt, a fellow NSF and another was my CSM. Training do not only train a driver to drive the APC/Tank, it also allow the driver to anticpate potential problems and allow driver to troubleshoot vehicle fault and handle the rough terrain. i dunno about other vocations, but we in armour have a said over the mission or at least my platoon do. my PC will brief us the mission and we pengkias can give suggestions on how to execute the mission. Of course the PC can override our suggestions, but at least most of us will know what going on.

Training do help as proven by reservists outperform active NSF units who are physically better shape than the reservist. but because reservists have the advantage of experience, reservist knew the best and fastest way to deal with a test, ie.. putting a camo net over a parked APC faster and with less manpower than a active NSF unit who were only taught by CMI instructors from the SOA.

by the way, america didnt actually lose the vietnam war. NVA lost every battles it engage against the US Army. After the Tet Offensive, General Giap have no more reserves to bring the battle to the South. But because the Tet Offensive battle being broadcast on US television which result in massive anti war demostrations. the next couple of years give the north a breathing space to rebuild and rearm. by 1972, US stop all defense aid to the south vietnam govt and by 1975, South Vietnam army run out of supplies. In real sense, US army was let down by the politicians and the US public.

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In my reply to you, noticed I removed the entire post except for a phrase you used? I simplified the training of all individuals to one aspect of their training, but obviously that is not the complete training syllabus. There was no need to explain that training an individual during peacetime is to equipped them in preparation of a war.

Your reasoning is a narrow view of the role of a defence force. All countries need one during peacetime for security, defence, support of the local economy and to deter aggression from a hostile country.

We already have a large volunteer force, for example, medical doctors, aircraft technicians, regulars, pilots, training instructors, etc. The NS training can be shortened by a year at the most as it takes about 12 months to train an officer.

I am saying and I repeat that one cannot expect to have good soldiers or officers during peacetime, especially from conscripts. When it comes to push and shove, good and great leaders can only be found in battles. How good a defence force we have also will only be known when we have been tested after having gone through a war.

About the Vietnam War, well, there are many books written about it and I won't want to argue on this. My mentioning it was to stress that training of a soldier and how good he will be can only be proven in a war scenario, not during your 2 years in NS. How many of those countries now having a war had the luxury of training their soldiers, a few maybe but not all.

sleaguepunter said:

i find that most of us ex NSmen have a better idea how to streamline the SAF conscription system than the expensive ministars.

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heheh...

it would put the ministars to shame if any of the sammyboys would factor in geopolitical relationships and provide a super tock kong proposal to revamp the current conscription method.

Windsor said:

We already have a large volunteer force, for example, medical doctors, aircraft technicians, regulars, pilots, training instructors, etc. The NS training can be shortened by a year at the most as it takes about 12 months to train an officer.

I am saying and I repeat that one cannot expect to have good soldiers or officers during peacetime, especially from conscripts. When it comes to push and shove, good and great leaders can only be found in battles. How good a defence force we have also will only be known when we have been tested after having gone through a war.

About the Vietnam War, well, there are many books written about it and I won't want to argue on this. My mentioning it was to stress that training of a soldier and how good he will be can only be proven in a war scenario, not during your 2 years in NS. How many of those countries now having a war had the luxury of training their soldiers, a few maybe but not all.

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going by the official number of 50K being in uniform at any one time, take away the 2 years cohort of NSFs of maybe 20+K, all we left with is only 25K "professional" men under arms, that your idea of a large volunteer force?

so u advocating use have 3month basic training as real soldiers can are those can live thru a war?

my opinion a bit different, i believe better trained soldiers have a better chance than a person who was shanghaised into the army. NVA is only less eqquip than the US army, they no less well trained than the america G.Is. i repeat again, soldier dont just need only to know how to shoot, he need the training to know how to make use of the terrrain to advance toward the enemy position in a safe manner. i admit being under fire will make everybody react differently but training allow the soldiers the knowledge of knowing what to do when under fire.

and also, i disagree an officer can be produce with only 1 year training. It take at least 3 years to produce a proper officer with sufficient knowledge and skill. That why i believe in a professional officer corp back up with a professional NCO corp. i wan to streamline the conscription, better to get rid of ppl who cannot be bother with NS after the one yr conscription, make them pay the national defense tax. But as they already served one yr conscription, then they are also part of the reserves to be call up in the event of a national war.

unlike the police volunteer who were paid less than $3per hour because police want only patriotic ppl in their force. i dont believe patriotic mean volunteer must suffer monetary loss. KNN, they pay themselves so high yet appeal to patriotic volunteers to work for pittance. ppl who volunteer after ORDed should pay an allowance that correspond to a full time soldier of the same rank get per month. scrape the make up pay scheme and pay an allowance to the volunteers. insurance and medical benefits be given to volunteers and a graturity of maybe $20K at the end of 15-20yrs service. volunteers should ar least train 2 days a month, on weekend to hone their skill and a 5-7 days per year for a proper excerise in the field so it about 25-30days per yrs in total. first it not expensive and the volunteers career are not affected as training happen during the weekend and taking annual leave of 5 days should not be a problem too.

sleaguepunter said:

going by the official number of 50K being in uniform at any one time, take away the 2 years cohort of NSFs of maybe 20+K, all we left with is only 25K "professional" men under arms, that your idea of a large volunteer force?

so u advocating use have 3month basic training as real soldiers can are those can live thru a war?

my opinion a bit different, i believe better trained soldiers have a better chance than a person who was shanghaised into the army. NVA is only less eqquip than the US army, they no less well trained than the america G.Is. i repeat again, soldier dont just need only to know how to shoot, he need the training to know how to make use of the terrrain to advance toward the enemy position in a safe manner. i admit being under fire will make everybody react differently but training allow the soldiers the knowledge of knowing what to do when under fire.

and also, i disagree an officer can be produce with only 1 year training. It take at least 3 years to produce a proper officer with sufficient knowledge and skill. That why i believe in a professional officer corp back up with a professional NCO corp. i wan to streamline the conscription, better to get rid of ppl who cannot be bother with NS after the one yr conscription, make them pay the national defense tax. But as they already served one yr conscription, then they are also part of the reserves to be call up in the event of a national war.

unlike the police volunteer who were paid less than $3per hour because police want only patriotic ppl in their force. i dont believe patriotic mean volunteer must suffer monetary loss. KNN, they pay themselves so high yet appeal to patriotic volunteers to work for pittance. ppl who volunteer after ORDed should pay an allowance that correspond to a full time soldier of the same rank get per month. scrape the make up pay scheme and pay an allowance to the volunteers. insurance and medical benefits be given to volunteers and a graturity of maybe $20K at the end of 15-20yrs service. volunteers should ar least train 2 days a month, on weekend to hone their skill and a 5-7 days per year for a proper excerise in the field so it about 25-30days per yrs in total. first it not expensive and the volunteers career are not affected as training happen during the weekend and taking annual leave of 5 days should not be a problem too.

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We are moving further and further away from your original post, which I had commented on. Anyway it is good to discuss whatever issues you have brought up. The gist of your statements focuses on individual performance and training and the result in your opinion is that these NS soldiers are not good. That is perfectly understandable as they were forced to undergo military training for 2 years.

Then you elaborate on their training which to me is irrelevant as per the above. You then stressed that a good soldier, in your words, "dont just need only to know how to shoot, he need the training to know how to make use of the terrrain to advance toward the enemy position in a safe manner." A very simplistic statement as we all know battles are not won just because of the reason you gave. Can we stop discussing on individuals otherwise we get bogged down by details?

Now back to your first para. 25K regulars augmented by about a million citizen soldiers (active and reserve) to defend Singapore with another million citizens to help I would say is quite a formidable force.

You state, "so u advocating use have 3month basic training as real soldiers can are those can live thru a war?" Did I made such a statement? Please show me as I know I did not. What I said about the Vietcong is an example that valor, fierce patriotism, bravery, sacrifice cannot be earned by training. Those qualities that win wars are outside of the classroom.

I never mentioned 3 months which you said I did. I said a minimum of 1 year is all it takes to train an officer from scratch. There are advance courses available should there be a requirement for an officer to go up further through the ranks. Then there is also the 13 years cycle for all NS soldiers after full-time NS. All training can be reduce if TPTB wishes, but we have to generate enough noise for that to happen.

In saying we get proper officers with sufficient knowledge and skills after they have been trained for 3 years is quite thick. You did not give any reasons why we need such officers. Are those officers combat, service or logistics? Again let us not go into such a discussion as your line of thought is not focused. Now you want to bring in new subjects such as the police, salaries etc, etc. We will never be able to conclude any discussion if you wander off in a tangent.

Suffice to state your reasons how NS training can be reduced to a more acceptable period and how we can go about it. Nothing should be written in stone that cannot be adjusted to suit the situation we have today. Singapore should changed what was planned and executed more than 40 years ago, as now we have modern equipment and training methods unlike the yesteryears. This I think we do agree on.

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

Wow, where have you been? If ever anyone knows about TT, it's got to be you. Why no picture and sound for so long?Yes, very strong on casinos as well.

ckmpd said:

Didnt Tracy once mention abt her bf's gambling addiction? and that's why she is so against casinos in singapore?

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there no 1 million citizen soldiers, unless govt wanna to call up males from 12yo to 60yo.

The training of riflemen can be improve, more streamline but they are as well train as soldiers in the regions. 1 year for riflemen is more than enough. from my own NSF experience, i have 10 months of lull period from my unit last major field excerise to my ORD date. Then before that, during my first year, my unit took on the NDP mass display and also the next year army open house. That was at least another 5-8 months of being a cheap labourer. Altogether i wasted at least 15 months being a cheap labour. i dont mind being in uniform because of training but to be a cheap labourer is not my idea of patriotic. The lack of training areas can be help by extensive use of simulators. While simulators are expensive, it still cheaper than really driving a Leo2 out to the field where wear and tear will cost more in the long run. And also why give jungle training to armour units? armour have problems deploying in jungle so just give basic jungle training can oready so why order armour units to brunei for advance jungle training? it do not make sense, the logic given was in the event vehicle not available, armour pengkias can continue to fight as infantry. Then after armour pengkia kenna wipe out and vehicles again available, then who can make use of the newly available vehicle? as far as i know, no infantry/guards units are train in using armour vehicle. even in ICTs, some armoured coy were given heli-insert training. this is totally irrelevant and a complete waste of time and resources. SAF should clearly define each vocations roles and not waste time and $$ to make everyone the jack of all trades.

SAF officers are badly train. The need to roll out a mininium number of officers allow CMI cadets to pass out. 1 year is never enough i had seen officers bring men to "holland" during topo. and being in armour, we had access to radio conversations between the OC and PCs over the coy radio net from the vehicle signal set speaker. many a time, the PCs kenna fark for unable to fulfil OC's orders. Most of the time was due to the PCs lost their way in Area D. Like u said, conscription dont produce good leaders, so why not change the officers corp to regulars only?

sleaguepunter said:

there no 1 million citizen soldiers, unless govt wanna to call up males from 12yo to 60yo.

The training of riflemen can be improve, more streamline but they are as well train as soldiers in the regions.

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Taken from wiki:

Manpower


Ok we are getting somewhere here. You mentioned topo so let us use that as an example of poor training. Training of men normally do not result in expertise in all fields. Certain people cannot march, others cannot shoot straight, others cannot run and some are topo kings. Does that equate to lack of training or is it because some people just do not have the ability? It does not mean an officer who cannot find his way on a terrain is not a good officer. Neither for those skills I mentioned.

To take this further, in the battlefield, it is every man to himself, i.e. anarchy. Leaders will shine and will take the lead and a lousy officer will either be killed or he will be a follower to another lower rank personnel, whoever that shows leadership that others will follow. Im peacetime, leaders are chosen according to certain guidelines, but as we all will agree, leaders are born, not made.

IMO, we should just offer suggestions as to how to reduce the 2 year mandatory NS. We could shorten the period for the rank and file by a year and officers to 2 years and they are compensated for the longer time they served.

Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange

eatshitndie said:

she was coerced into offering her body as collateral for bf's last all-in bet. very predictably, her bf lost, and she had to open her precious venus fly trap. the winner must have had a heart attack after being ravaged by a raucous rancor.

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:(..I hope nothing like what you said happened to her