as i have said.. is there a reason to base pap's performance from your knowledge or lack of it abt nz or aus?
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Crumbling of Singapore?
- Thread starter TracyTan866
- Start date
as i have said.. is there a reason to base pap's performance from your knowledge or lack of it abt nz or aus?
so you are saying that the pap runs SG well based on your experience on how the nz and aus govts run their countries?
This is an excellent thread. What started of as Sam's usual attempt to take the mickey out of someone has led to a full blown discussion between Sam and Tracy. Kudos to Tracy (Sumiko) to starting this discussion and keeping it real. Kudos to Sam for his thoughts. Kudos also to others who contributed to make this engaging. I have been watching this closely and it quite an intense and robust discussion. At this stage, I can see many valid points from all quarters. Would I highly recommend that this becomes a sticky at least for a while.
So far, you have not mentioned anything substantial nor convincing except running down the NZ govt. You have neglected, either deliberately or unintentionally, to answer the more probing questions asked. If you want to sound more convincing, can you try to make sense and answer some of the questions asked in this thread?
TracyTan866, boss is jsust saying SIngapore is not crumbling ... did he said pap runs SG well ?
please go and take a course in argumemtative writing and critical thinking
go read his other posts
She does well in her own way.... with responses which are designed to infuriate rather than than rebut.
Sam, I have to agree with her. You have taken your new country for granted. There will always be warts. In the sum of things, it is ahead and will continue to be ahead. I also recall Nelson Rockefeller commenting decades ago that if only the Singapore govt was running NY, it would not go broke.
There is no doubt that Singapore manages and run things on a world class basis but they have looked after their citizens, never trusted their citizens, never believed in their citizens and never will create a thinking, nurturing and creative generation or generations. You will not see an iPhone, a cannondale, cirque de soleil, a Benetton or the next generation of painkillers.
Many of us could have remained in this country, enjoying the ruthless efficiency, hi level of basic needs and claim that we have 6 or 7 figures, 2 houses, 3 cars but we are kidding ourselves.
What is a pot smoking MP in the bigger scheme of things.
I once screwed a guy for telling me that taxes are high. He is now one happy chappie with a wonderful family in a beautiful part of Oxford and the family is grateful to me for yelling at their dad.
There is no doubt that Singapore manages and run things on a world class basis but they have looked after their citizens, never trusted their citizens, never believed in their citizens and never will create a thinking, nurturing and creative generation or generations. You will not see an iPhone, a cannondale, cirque de soleil, a Benetton or the next generation of painkillers.
Many of us could have remained in this country, enjoying the ruthless efficiency, hi level of basic needs and claim that we have 6 or 7 figures, 2 houses, 3 cars but we are kidding ourselves.
What is a pot smoking MP in the bigger scheme of things.
I once screwed a guy for telling me that taxes are high. He is now one happy chappie with a wonderful family in a beautiful part of Oxford and the family is grateful to me for yelling at their dad.
She does well in her own way.... with responses which are designed to infuriate rather than than rebut.
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There are many aspects of this debate. One is whether OZ and NZ is governed well. Another is whether the people live well. The same questions can be asked of Singapore and the question on governance can further be broken down into two parts - one of management, the other of policies and vision.
Sam believes that the lifestyle is good in NZ and OZ for some people, including himself, who like the easy life, expansive environs and the relaxed culture but in terms of management and, to some extent in policy, Singapore could be better. He further believes that the two are not directly related. This, I agree with him. The easy life and relaxed culture is very much a result of the culture of the people there, predominantly western culture, and further promoted by the spacious environment there. Land is cheap and you can build outwards but don't expect asset appreciation to do better than a city-state.
I also agree with him on the management aspect. They cannot do better than the dogged dedication of the Singaporean managers but this is where I begin to disagree with him that it is not the sole preserve of the PAP govt that this excellence in management is achieved. Whether it is in the cabinet where the projects are first formed to the passing of law by the lawmakers, if required, to the implementation by civil servants, contractors, sub-contractors and individual work, that excellence and dedication is maintained throughout.
Even in the private sector, the industry and dedication, the time-watching are all there and Singapore progresses economically. While it is in the culture of the west to appreciate the good life, and this is also a leaning adopted by many who were schooled in the west, the Asian culture is that of looking for improvement of economic status. This is the result partly of the cultural development triggered centuries ago by ancient teaching and partly by the competitive environment created by dense living.
If you ask me, whether a typical Asian will feel comfortable living by himself in suburbs of Australia, many will not be. He will feel he has nothing to do. A retiree might appreciate a more relaxed life but even that he will likely prefer the company of friends than the vast expanses of the Australian countryside for long stretch of time.
So it is in the culture of Asia to struggle on, whether it is PAP or some alternative party. On the policy aspect, the ruling party did made some major blunders that have long term repercussion not easy to reverse - the stop at two was one, asset enhancement through benchmarking HDB land to market was another which have caused, for the former a declining population not easy to correct organically and for the latter a general appreciation in the overall cost of living that has made Singapore uncompetitive, a situation not easy to reverse in a short time.
The privatization of essential services and utilities while good in concept, operation-wise, have not been regulated well enough to ensure that service quality and pricing is not compromised. I believe the govt is still learning the ropes in this privatization policy. But with so many things happen within a short time, they are still very much on the learning curve. I believe Tracy's grouse is with this.
Personally I feel the most critical failing of the Singapore Govt is in the political process. Although it makes for easy governance, it does not promote proper debate which a more proportional representative parliament can offer. How good can policies be if these are the brain children of only a few?
The fact that you see major policy reversals in the past means mistakes had been made. I also feel that as majority votes move towards 50% or even when there is no majority, a more proportional representative parliament will give us a more stable political environment with fewer surprises.
Sam believes that the lifestyle is good in NZ and OZ for some people, including himself, who like the easy life, expansive environs and the relaxed culture but in terms of management and, to some extent in policy, Singapore could be better. He further believes that the two are not directly related. This, I agree with him. The easy life and relaxed culture is very much a result of the culture of the people there, predominantly western culture, and further promoted by the spacious environment there. Land is cheap and you can build outwards but don't expect asset appreciation to do better than a city-state.
I also agree with him on the management aspect. They cannot do better than the dogged dedication of the Singaporean managers but this is where I begin to disagree with him that it is not the sole preserve of the PAP govt that this excellence in management is achieved. Whether it is in the cabinet where the projects are first formed to the passing of law by the lawmakers, if required, to the implementation by civil servants, contractors, sub-contractors and individual work, that excellence and dedication is maintained throughout.
Even in the private sector, the industry and dedication, the time-watching are all there and Singapore progresses economically. While it is in the culture of the west to appreciate the good life, and this is also a leaning adopted by many who were schooled in the west, the Asian culture is that of looking for improvement of economic status. This is the result partly of the cultural development triggered centuries ago by ancient teaching and partly by the competitive environment created by dense living.
If you ask me, whether a typical Asian will feel comfortable living by himself in suburbs of Australia, many will not be. He will feel he has nothing to do. A retiree might appreciate a more relaxed life but even that he will likely prefer the company of friends than the vast expanses of the Australian countryside for long stretch of time.
So it is in the culture of Asia to struggle on, whether it is PAP or some alternative party. On the policy aspect, the ruling party did made some major blunders that have long term repercussion not easy to reverse - the stop at two was one, asset enhancement through benchmarking HDB land to market was another which have caused, for the former a declining population not easy to correct organically and for the latter a general appreciation in the overall cost of living that has made Singapore uncompetitive, a situation not easy to reverse in a short time.
The privatization of essential services and utilities while good in concept, operation-wise, have not been regulated well enough to ensure that service quality and pricing is not compromised. I believe the govt is still learning the ropes in this privatization policy. But with so many things happen within a short time, they are still very much on the learning curve. I believe Tracy's grouse is with this.
Personally I feel the most critical failing of the Singapore Govt is in the political process. Although it makes for easy governance, it does not promote proper debate which a more proportional representative parliament can offer. How good can policies be if these are the brain children of only a few?
The fact that you see major policy reversals in the past means mistakes had been made. I also feel that as majority votes move towards 50% or even when there is no majority, a more proportional representative parliament will give us a more stable political environment with fewer surprises.
I flagged this thread and keep returning to view the debate and yes it was a good one. I agree with SamLeong on this as I was formerly in my school LDDS. There should be opposing views no matter one's own personal opinions and each side should argue their case and rebut one another dispassionately. Who wins the debate is not as important as the views expressed and aired by both parties. Kudos to both of you for this.
To put it in a more real-life experiences of my family, this X'mas will be quite unique as my eldest brother, his wife, one of his son's with wife and kids are coming to Singapore. My brother's family left Singapore for the States about 26 years ago and they have never look back, now all of them are Americans. Accompanying them is one of my sis who left about 18 years ago following my bro. Another brother is arriving with his family from Perth, whilst my NZ(Maori) bro-in-law arrives from Mexico where he works, but he has taken up Singapore citizenship. My wife and one kid holds a foreign passport except for my younger son who was born here. One reason for not taking up Singapore citizenship for them is because I planned to leave Singapore for good.
The rest of my siblings in Singapore are doing very well, thank you but they can move out of Singapore if we so wished as they are all multi-millionaires. I have properties in other countries and will eventually leave Singapore within 2-3 years, just before my youngest boy is about to get his IC.
So, it all depends on the individual what is best for them, to have their cake and eat it too. We should not be bound by any mistaken loyalty to the country of our birth. We make the best for ourselves and our families for who will if we do not? It would be foolish to sacrifice our personal happiness as Singapore is too small a country whose future remains uncertain especially being surrounded by largely dominant Muslim countries.
To put it in a more real-life experiences of my family, this X'mas will be quite unique as my eldest brother, his wife, one of his son's with wife and kids are coming to Singapore. My brother's family left Singapore for the States about 26 years ago and they have never look back, now all of them are Americans. Accompanying them is one of my sis who left about 18 years ago following my bro. Another brother is arriving with his family from Perth, whilst my NZ(Maori) bro-in-law arrives from Mexico where he works, but he has taken up Singapore citizenship. My wife and one kid holds a foreign passport except for my younger son who was born here. One reason for not taking up Singapore citizenship for them is because I planned to leave Singapore for good.
The rest of my siblings in Singapore are doing very well, thank you but they can move out of Singapore if we so wished as they are all multi-millionaires. I have properties in other countries and will eventually leave Singapore within 2-3 years, just before my youngest boy is about to get his IC.
So, it all depends on the individual what is best for them, to have their cake and eat it too. We should not be bound by any mistaken loyalty to the country of our birth. We make the best for ourselves and our families for who will if we do not? It would be foolish to sacrifice our personal happiness as Singapore is too small a country whose future remains uncertain especially being surrounded by largely dominant Muslim countries.
I can see Tracy's pov and he's got good points. Tracy chose the word "crumbling" which hits the nail on the head.
For too long and too often, our rulers have been crowing about how far-sighted, talented a group of people they are, and it's Singapore's god-sent A team who have accumulated billions of sovereign wealth funds and brought Singapore from Third world to first in less time than many advanced nations.
Have we ever forgotten how often our rulers used to ridicule, mock, laugh at, berate, and criticise our third world neighbours for their inefficiency, morass, ruins and derelict cities and their incompetence etc. Recall that even China, Russian leaders want to learn from them, as the brothel house will spin. Our rulers justified their humongous salaries on their ability to govern. LKY even said that all the talents we have can hardly fill a 747, and if all 300 are in the same plane and it crashes, Singapore will be back in the dark ages, if not the stone age and mosquito swamps.
Is it any wonder when things fail, we naturally look to this super team and ask if they are infallible gods or that we have been taken for a ride after all? For such cockiness, is it a wonder that we minions must hold them to a much higher standard of government than those of Australia, NZ, Canada, and even UK and USA, so that as much as a crack will constitute a crumbling state to us?
Our scales have fallen from our eyes. It is clearer now that with all this crumbling infrastructure, the gods we were constantly told we had are nothing but ordinary pedestrians catapulted into power by cronyism, nepotism and the extensive chokehold over many private sectors of our economy due to prolonged PAP political dominance.
For too long and too often, our rulers have been crowing about how far-sighted, talented a group of people they are, and it's Singapore's god-sent A team who have accumulated billions of sovereign wealth funds and brought Singapore from Third world to first in less time than many advanced nations.
Have we ever forgotten how often our rulers used to ridicule, mock, laugh at, berate, and criticise our third world neighbours for their inefficiency, morass, ruins and derelict cities and their incompetence etc. Recall that even China, Russian leaders want to learn from them, as the brothel house will spin. Our rulers justified their humongous salaries on their ability to govern. LKY even said that all the talents we have can hardly fill a 747, and if all 300 are in the same plane and it crashes, Singapore will be back in the dark ages, if not the stone age and mosquito swamps.
Is it any wonder when things fail, we naturally look to this super team and ask if they are infallible gods or that we have been taken for a ride after all? For such cockiness, is it a wonder that we minions must hold them to a much higher standard of government than those of Australia, NZ, Canada, and even UK and USA, so that as much as a crack will constitute a crumbling state to us?
Our scales have fallen from our eyes. It is clearer now that with all this crumbling infrastructure, the gods we were constantly told we had are nothing but ordinary pedestrians catapulted into power by cronyism, nepotism and the extensive chokehold over many private sectors of our economy due to prolonged PAP political dominance.
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5. Use of People's Association for political consolildation
6. Co-opting talented members of society into their fold, starving private enterprise of their talents
7. Hollowing out of civil society
8. Manipulation of electoral rules including GRC
9. Use of carrot and stick approach to electoral politics
Please add on. That's all I can think of now, as I haven't started my nightly black label regimen yet :-)
That's very narrow logic. You can't point to a 60.1% mandate and say Singaporeans collectively approve on specific issues like boards of directorships for MPs. There was a wide variety of issues and people vote emotionally and subjectively as well. You can only conclude that people as a whole still prefer a PAP govt, regardless of personal dislike. As for individual issues like ministerial salaries and GST, the 60.1% does not indicate anything.
disclaimer: i advocate the abolishment of military conscription
defences are still required, just as any living organism.
Zhihau,
I also advocate the abolition of conscription and I have a feeling we can find quite a number of right-thinking singaporean males who would agree with us.
Problem is that agenda is never going to gain traction as the electorate will not buy it. The first question asked is whether a professional force can really protect SG. In geopolitics, the worst thing is to be rich and weak. They will fear SG will be very rich, but very weak without conscription.
The other concern is that those who have gone thru will never allow abolition. In fact, many parents want NS to be kept, even to the point of wanting their kids to serve NS well. I can't fathom it but thats a fact. I really don't know how to explain. Maybe stockholm syndrome.
Whatever the reasons, opposition in SG will never gain traction on the NS issue. And that means for thinking people like yourself you're stuck with it.
Some may hate to hear this... Absolutely true, need to provide best for immediate family & self first. May be emigrating is the answer. Not sure if this a minority view nowadays, but I suspect it's may be true that to be really fulfilled, one may need to contribute to improve society as well... where the heart is, where home is... Have emigrees easily done or felt this way of their adopted homeland? Actually, some here may have achieved the sweet spot of best of both worlds eg providing the forum. Not easy, but what other ways?
Besides what you wrote.
You never be able to have a decent standing army 1/30 the size of current conscription. It is not in the nature of Chinese to join the army. Even the US is now relying on southern hicks, blacks, latinos and women. Its no longer fashionable to be associated with regimentation.
Sure you will get fighter pilots, defence scientist etc but no one to hold rifle, join infantry or drive tanks. As you know our international assignments typically avoids having NS men in battle zones. The detachment running drones for the Allies in Afghanistan is a puzzle to many of the international contingents. They cannot figure out why Singapore Army is made of Indian NCOs and specialists, Chinese women NCOs and Chinese senior officers.
You never be able to have a decent standing army 1/30 the size of current conscription. It is not in the nature of Chinese to join the army. Even the US is now relying on southern hicks, blacks, latinos and women. Its no longer fashionable to be associated with regimentation.
Sure you will get fighter pilots, defence scientist etc but no one to hold rifle, join infantry or drive tanks. As you know our international assignments typically avoids having NS men in battle zones. The detachment running drones for the Allies in Afghanistan is a puzzle to many of the international contingents. They cannot figure out why Singapore Army is made of Indian NCOs and specialists, Chinese women NCOs and Chinese senior officers.
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dunno make sticky for fark ...? she will bump up every response anyway
She does well in her own way.... with responses which are designed to infuriate rather than than rebut.
I dun really follow her threads anymore....
she argue and debate like PAP... she ish lookin for agreement not debate... read her threads for fark???? and that s not the problem.. she argue based on sentiments, opinion than on facts and figure...
I hate to say this but she argue like a gal so I dun think she is FCP.... or maybe she is cause most girls I know are not so extreme
Marine Parade choose PAP over NSP.. and the Macpherson ward where both lasses concentrate on, has the 2nd highest PAP vote% in MP grc after gct ward...
that is just business... so making $ = crumbling?
biased opinion or unbiased fact?
biased arrogant opinion? or facts from TracyTan866?
1st she say boss is running her down then when Boss say Singapore is a great place, she ask Boss whether he agree with her ..
this after she start a thread on SIngapore crumbling
is she mad? where does she learn reading comprehension
so boss not running her down mean he agreed with her ? sound like george bush rhetoric
still have not list how dirty and dishonest govt = crumbling.... another standard Tracy asssumption ... leap of imagination...
now she say eventual... another of her delusional fantasy
peepur dunno but she know best .... what a great arguement.!!! again no figure no anecdote no stat or example to back up...
so now this become a matter of opinions and here is where i stop reading previously and dunno why boss continue to debate after she declare she is a deaf frog
I have personally seen a full grown fruit tree, with semingly healthy looking leaves & fruits in its glory, fell by a colony of termites living inside. Yes, we have the least corruption, but we have have 'wood worms' & 'termites' in the system. Are we going to wait till a seemingly, healthy & bustling 'tree' collapse, & that will be too late.
The 60% have no idea, what they are buying into!, by the way, how could the swallows arrive, when there are predator birds on the horizon, shoot these first, then the swallows will come for the summer, unless the 100% is waiting for the winter of discontent to fall upon us & do us all in?
nice anecdote.... does tracy know how to tell 1 beside her opinion?
using the word "should".. like ah gong
people vote PAP so they are not discerning and dun know the wiles and schemes.... another Tracy know best post... she talk like a PAP minister
you wun notice how flawed her agruement is until you read it from another angle below
see what I mean??? flawed agruement = flawed agruement ... not disputing any conclusion
agree with her about NS being morally wrong but not breaking the law doesnt = balless... she is balless so she is the least qualified to call others balless
she doesnt even have the guts to tell us what party she join and what she has done for the people .... huat a farking joke
another opinion.... no facts or figure... if Singaporeans are successful, its because Singaporeans parent are goot... if sinkie cant make it, then its PAP fault...
if 60% sinkie vote PAP, then its also PAP fault...
standard woman reply.... forum quality goes down
if Singaporeans working very hard and still lose to Foreign students in school what does that said?
Singaporean are successful, hard working with acumen and diligent but need welfare.
opinions opinions opinions opinions opinions opinions
she doesnt even look at data.... she look at posts she want to look at and glorify them but ignore facts that dont agree with her dismissing it as opinion
see what I mean? the problem with her is she doesnt or cant come up with those good post she agree with
more doom and gloom for PAP.... Her rhetoric sound like Tony and Tharman
see how she change the point of contention ??? how to debate... she switch topic whenever she like.. who is exaggerating and misinforming
if you think the nz govt is good, it doesnt mean that the pap govt is no good... ??? sound like a bad arguement ? see above quote
Boss can do comparative analysis, can tracy?
most singaporeans agree with her if PAP 's vote goes below 60% ???? 40.000001% = most singaporeans ???
TracyTan is describing herself, is she an old and tired man?
see above.... who dun bother to debate? who dun bother to state facts
and Tracy know all about everything
has she ? has she post any analysis, stat?
more self wanking rhetorical question..
WOAH !!?!?
still refuse to reveal any fact or number on how many country she been to ... let just take her words... because she is not arrogant!
more self wanking rhetorical question..
TracyTan is OZ or NZ ???
only TracyTan866 knows and she is not arrogant
i dun see probing questions, I see self wanking
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I don't mean to detract from the seriousness of the discussion for this thread. But here's something more light-hearted about the fate of PAP I heard from my friends. When lighting first struck the Merlion, a number of people interpreted as a very ominous sign of bad things to come for PAP. As the Merlion is symbolic of S'pore, they interpreted it as the heavens serving a warning to the PAP that they have reached the limits of their wickedness in not fulfilling the basic role of a government to look after its people but focus on gratifying their greed for wealth instead. Soon after that, all the mishaps start to occur one after another (as the PAP did not heed the lighting warning and was unrepentant) for example, MAS Selamat escape, the great floods, GIC and Temasek doomed investments, the poor showing in both the GE (with a PAP candidate having to withdraw the very last minute and PE (with Tony Tan being the first PAP PE candidate to be badly battered by the voters as in the exposure of his son's NS status) and now the MRT incidents. If we believe all these, the heavens will punish the PAP even more so in the coming months and years that will eventually lead to TracyTan's title for this thread "Crumbling of Singapore"
Re: I Find TracyTan866 Strange
Tracytan866 is an internet moniker. It has no gender unless you're French.
Tracytan866 is an internet moniker. It has no gender unless you're French.
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