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Does anyone know how ISD agents work?

Bigfuck

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I was quiet coz I was on the road to KL 3 times over the past 5 days. I was quiet not because of fear. I have nothing to fear and fear no one except mad people. You know the boundary while I tried to play with it? I opine the earlier you leave opposition politics, the better the chances for the opposition. If you can't help it is ok. Don't sabo.

Touche. His marbles were never really quite there. He should seriously go see a psychologist in HK or a country other than Singapore that he can trust. Yap is far saner than GMS
 

hurley

Alfrescian
Loyal
bro, you must be old timer. :biggrin: james bond is so passe. jason bourne is the new james bond! jason take rolled up newspaper also can kill people while james must need gadgets.

coz bond girls defy ages :biggrin:. jason bourne only has 1-2 girlfriends.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Cpt. GMS officially knows nuts about SPF and ISD secrets to reveal. However, if he reveals SAF secrets, he'll be charged under OSA. You see, Official Secrets Act means one must be officially entrusted with the secrets. If one learns the secrets from unofficial sources or by guessing correctly, how to charge?

You are 99% correct, Ramseth. That is, on the assumption that GMS is just GMS.

Let's consider another scenario. If GMS works for them knowingly, gets paid etc etc, he will be covered by OSA. If he exposes his relationship with them, the question is, will they proceed to charge him?

By charging him, they merely confirm their professional working relationship which may not be in their best interest to disclose. At times, silence is the best option but silence does not mean there is no relationship.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Touche. His marbles were never really quite there. He should seriously go see a psychologist in HK or a country other than Singapore that he can trust. Yap is far saner than GMS

I opine GMS is perfectly sane. The stage is set up for him. He merely needs to act on that stage.

Yap? He is the 8th natural wonder of this world.
 

Bigfuck

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I opine GMS is perfectly sane. The stage is set up for him. He merely needs to act on that stage.

Yap? He is the 8th natural wonder of this world.

It is all about perception of others when you are on the stage of life, not what you think you should be. " If ten men tell you you are drunk, you better lie down" (Battle of the Bulge. And he ain't no Henry Fonda)
 

Forvendet

Alfrescian
Loyal
Let's consider another scenario. If GMS works for them knowingly, gets paid etc etc, he will be covered by OSA. If he exposes his relationship with them, the question is, will they proceed to charge him?

I think that GMS is too dumbfuck to be employable any security or espionage agency. They just enjoy laughing at his good jokes and ignore his bad jokes.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I think that GMS is too dumbfuck to be employable any security or espionage agency. They just enjoy laughing at his good jokes and ignore his bad jokes.

Dumbfuck also can make it. Don't need to be above average in intelligence to make the grade. Having access to privilege info and providing feedback on fellow members are simple tasks. Even if still can't make, there are easier tasks to fulfill too.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
We are all going off-topic. For the sake of brevity and to stay in focus, lets all agree that GMS is not the topic and whether he is with the Intelligence Agencies is very much up to folks to decide for themselves or maybe a separate folder would be ideal.

Clearly a number of myths have evolved about these genre of services. Here are a few that needs to be dispelled.

1) Its a service and a vocation just like the Fire Service in CD nurses in hospitals etc. Its takes all sorts but some have a natural acumen.

2) Qualification is no different to other services and you certainly don't have to be smart. In fact many in this service have been promoted on their ability to gather high grade info and these chaps would have no hope in hell to be promoted if they remained in the Police Force or worked elsewhere.

3) Your background and your demenour does play a huge part for selection. If your background can be traced cleanly and you generally don't have live-wire personality you stand a better chance. Those that do but have contacts in it can still make it. The referrals continues to be very big in this Service compared to any other.

4) Scholars struggle in the service as the results are grey and timelines are long. The Political lines are also blurred. They generally leave or do what Eddie did - he changed it from James Bond to an Analysis focused bureau where you need to be smart, well educated to be able to contribute. ISD cannot take this approach unlike SID as foot soldiers are primary in this form of engagement. You need to know who turned on or off the tap in a certain house.

5) Talking about the Intelligence Service - this is probably the worst myth. There is no offence and its not a crime. Its duty of citizens to watch over every organ of govt. You can't do that if you don't talk about it. All 1st world democracies include a member of opposition in either the parliament or senate committee to be the oversight watchdog for Intelligence matters. During General Elections, the Intelligence service must brief both side of parliament of the immediate past parliament about the status and on-going activities affecting national security. None of which exists in Singapore.

The last point which I regularly make is to grow some balls. We have a number of clowns here that allude that they know or have worked or are working for these services but instead of contributing without breaching the OSA, they pass comments on others who are prepared to discuss about such issues. If you really have no understanding of the meaning of National Security or generally do not wear the pants at home, you will do everyone a favour by just listening and wanking away quietly at home.

I acknowledge 3 because they have shown their credentials either openly or cryptically. One is certainly a scholar. They do provide guidance and allow for a better discussion and good for everyone.

Feel free to throw out your questions and your views. where possible you will hear their views.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
5) Talking about the Intelligence Service - this is probably the worst myth. There is no offence and its not a crime. Its duty of citizens to watch over every organ of govt. You can't do that if you don't talk about it. All 1st world democracies include a member of opposition in either the parliament or senate committee to be the oversight watchdog for Intelligence matters. During General Elections, the Intelligence service must brief both side of parliament of the immediate past parliament about the status and on-going activities affecting national security. None of which exists in Singapore.

Bro, you are 100% right.

Our intel service does not belong to the country. It belongs to the PAP. I can only equate terrorist activities being on par with PAP's continued existence as THE main objective of this entity. In the case of the former, it is only on par if the is an imminent threat. Routine coverage falls below PAP's interest.

There is one reason why what you stated will not ever take place in S'pore. The things done to ensure PAP's survival cannot be made public or even to people other than key MIWs. Other than PS MHA, Minister of HA, DPMs, PM and LKY, the rest are not au fait with what is going on. I dare say not even MOS, Parl Sec MHA are kept in the loop on sensitive matters.

A trusted man of the PM is always DISD. And Directors of ISD will be well taken care of. You need them to remain silent.

If ever one fine day, things are completely exposed, many will die from shock!
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Clearly a number of myths have evolved about these genre of services. Here are a few that needs to be dispelled.

1) Its a service and a vocation just like the Fire Service in CD nurses in hospitals etc. Its takes all sorts but some have a natural acumen.

2) Qualification is no different to other services and you certainly don't have to be smart. In fact many in this service have been promoted on their ability to gather high grade info and these chaps would have no hope in hell to be promoted if they remained in the Police Force or worked elsewhere.

3) Your background and your demenour does play a huge part for selection. If your background can be traced cleanly and you generally don't have live-wire personality you stand a better chance. Those that do but have contacts in it can still make it. The referrals continues to be very big in this Service compared to any other.

4) Scholars struggle in the service as the results are grey and timelines are long. The Political lines are also blurred. They generally leave or do what Eddie did - he changed it from James Bond to an Analysis focused bureau where you need to be smart, well educated to be able to contribute. ISD cannot take this approach unlike SID as foot soldiers are primary in this form of engagement. You need to know who turned on or off the tap in a certain house.

Kindly allow me to comment on your comments.

Not too sure if the intel service is like other services in the civil service. I know most if not all have to undergo a polygraph test and pass the test before they are considered for appt to ISD or SID. Once in, intel officers are a protected breed unlike other civil servants (excluding scholars).

Offences committed by intel officers are usually dealt with internally for fear of embarrassment and bad image to the service. They will get you to tender your resignation if possible. Alternatively, they sack you. Then find you a job outside the service. This has happened before.

To those in the service, and who read this post religiously, they will know who I am referring to. Let's just say this chap is working in a neighbouring country. Boss secured job for him. If charged in court, he would have 100% gone to jail. CBT as a servant is no ordinary offence. But going to court is not going to make them look good.

The ability to get promoted does not necessary mean the ability to get high quality intel. Many have been promoted for other reasons not associated with work ability. If your boss is useless and is a balls carrier, he expects the same from you! And you may even end up with a national day award. Again, this took place and insiders reading this will be laughing coz they know it is true and who benefitted from thse non-work qualities.

Fully agree with you on the referral part. If someone in authority wants you, even with a 'past', no problem. Your 'past' could benefit the organisation in other ways. The most inportant criteria is loyalty and obedience, period.

Scholars struggle because of various reasons. Politicking is the cardinal reason. It is a service not too friendly to scholars coz the presence of the orang lamas remain pretty strong. Scholars may make their presence felt years down the road when conditions are more ideal.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree.

When Ops Cold Store first took place. The entire Singapore cabinet was not aware of what was going to happen and who was to be detained and the rationale except for Old man and GKS. Raja who was considered to be No.3 openly said it the day after the Ops commenced. Nothing has changed. Thus Dhanabalan's comments decades later. Dhanabalan did not like using the name of the cabinet when they had not been briefed.

When an up and coming young scholar was selected to be the first ever Principle Private Secretary to the old man, Singapore longest serving cabinet secretary had one single advice which the former put it down to posterity in his oral history just before he retired - "remember, blood is thicker than water". That scholar went on to serve as Head of Civil Service. If anyone who knows the man better it has to be the ex-cabinet secretary who was with him from the birth of Singapore till his retirement past 70 years of age. No one else had his retirement age extended that long.


If ever one fine day, things are completely exposed, many will die from shock!
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
When an up and coming young scholar was selected to be the first ever Principle Private Secretary to the old man, Singapore longest serving cabinet secretary had one single advice which the former put it down to posterity in his oral history just before he retired - "remember, blood is thicker than water". That scholar went on to serve as Head of Civil Service. If anyone who knows the man better it has to be the ex-cabinet secretary who was with him from the birth of Singapore till his retirement past 70 years of age. No one else had his retirement age extended that long.

Let me guess. Lim Siong Guan?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Finding jobs for those who ran afoul of the law or for misconduct is the general rule of thumb for anyone who held a serious role or who has had access to state secrets. Also included are those not in the Intelligence Service. We did that for a Perm Sec who also happened to be in the same cohort as LHL. He was given a job with a company in HK whose owner stays here and are reliant on cover from us. After "rehabilitation" he was brought back and given a job with a subsidiary of a GLC. He interestingly in his case lied to ISD and found put during court trial. The risk of losing someone to the other side is high. Like everywhere else you have stupid things like breaking car windows to steal coupons, siphoning petrol on supposedly state mission, humping the wife of a senior officer who happens to be your your subordinate and you conveniently send him on a mission. Etc.
Kindly allow me to comment on your comments.Not too sure if the intel service is like other services in the civil service. I know most if not all have to undergo a polygraph test and pass the test before they are considered for appt to ISD or SID. Once in, intel officers are a protected breed unlike other civil servants (excluding scholars). Offences committed by intel officers are usually dealt with internally for fear of embarrassment and bad image to the service. They will get you to tender your resignation if possible. Alternatively, they sack you. Then find you a job outside the service. This has happened before. To those in the service, and who read this post religiously, they will know who I am referring to. Let's just say this chap is working in a neighbouring country. Boss secured job for him. If charged in court, he would have 100% gone to jail. CBT as a servant is no ordinary offence. But going to court is not going to make them look good.The ability to get promoted does not necessary mean the ability to get high quality intel. Many have been promoted for other reasons not associated with work ability. If your boss is useless and is a balls carrier, he expects the same from you! And you may even end up with a national day award. Again, this took place and insiders reading this will be laughing coz they know it is true and who benefitted from thse non-work qualities.Fully agree with you on the referral part. If someone in authority wants you, even with a 'past', no problem. Your 'past' could benefit the organisation in other ways. The most inportant criteria is loyalty and obedience, period.Scholars struggle because of various reasons. Politicking is the cardinal reason. It is a service not too friendly to scholars coz the presence of the orang lamas remain pretty strong. Scholars may make their presence felt years down the road when conditions are more ideal.
 

steffychun

Alfrescian
Loyal
We are all going off-topic. For the sake of brevity and to stay in focus, lets all agree that GMS is not the topic and whether he is with the Intelligence Agencies is very much up to folks to decide for themselves or maybe a separate folder would be ideal.

Clearly a number of myths have evolved about these genre of services. Here are a few that needs to be dispelled.

1) Its a service and a vocation just like the Fire Service in CD nurses in hospitals etc. Its takes all sorts but some have a natural acumen.

2) Qualification is no different to other services and you certainly don't have to be smart. In fact many in this service have been promoted on their ability to gather high grade info and these chaps would have no hope in hell to be promoted if they remained in the Police Force or worked elsewhere.

3) Your background and your demenour does play a huge part for selection. If your background can be traced cleanly and you generally don't have live-wire personality you stand a better chance. Those that do but have contacts in it can still make it. The referrals continues to be very big in this Service compared to any other.

4) Scholars struggle in the service as the results are grey and timelines are long. The Political lines are also blurred. They generally leave or do what Eddie did - he changed it from James Bond to an Analysis focused bureau where you need to be smart, well educated to be able to contribute. ISD cannot take this approach unlike SID as foot soldiers are primary in this form of engagement. You need to know who turned on or off the tap in a certain house.

5) Talking about the Intelligence Service - this is probably the worst myth. There is no offence and its not a crime. Its duty of citizens to watch over every organ of govt. You can't do that if you don't talk about it. All 1st world democracies include a member of opposition in either the parliament or senate committee to be the oversight watchdog for Intelligence matters. During General Elections, the Intelligence service must brief both side of parliament of the immediate past parliament about the status and on-going activities affecting national security. None of which exists in Singapore.

The last point which I regularly make is to grow some balls. We have a number of clowns here that allude that they know or have worked or are working for these services but instead of contributing without breaching the OSA, they pass comments on others who are prepared to discuss about such issues. If you really have no understanding of the meaning of National Security or generally do not wear the pants at home, you will do everyone a favour by just listening and wanking away quietly at home.

I acknowledge 3 because they have shown their credentials either openly or cryptically. One is certainly a scholar. They do provide guidance and allow for a better discussion and good for everyone.

Feel free to throw out your questions and your views. where possible you will hear their views.

In reply Scrobal:

Yes, our two intelligence services are analysis based. This is as much information a we know from loose ST reports (read the ST archive), Huxley's book Defending the Lion City and talk by the politicians and civil servants.

No, I think in some countries, we do try to exert change or at least gather information enough to exert change. In SEA countries most definitely.

ISD has too much of a bad name from the Marxist stuff.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, will address 3 things that you mentioned.

Agree on poly for intelligence but also administered on certain vocations on a case by case basis, besides event driven cases.

Promotions of that nature are quite Common in both public and private sector. There are many "multiple purpose chans" and his brothers around. Scholars across the all of civil service operate on 2 to 3 yr rotation and need to show PSC and PS their accomplishment.

Intelligence works require deep embedding on most significant operations and lifecycle is generally long. That is why they turn down any posts in Intelligence or they ask for guarantees. Since they know they tenure is short, their mindset is different. The vets are also class acts by themselves in view of their long tenure.

Of the 3 scholars that ended up heading ISD in the past, one went renegade and ended up in the same payroll of Gentings who also had an IGP and Head of Special Branch in its stable - disgraceful. Same lot that tried to give Stanley a back door stake in Sentosa Gentings. Son has alot more faith in scholars but prefers to drop them in as Head.

Not too sure if the intel service is like other services in the civil service. I know most if not all have to undergo a polygraph test and pass the test before they are considered for appt to ISD or SID. Once in, intel officers are a protected breed unlike other civil servants (excluding scholars). The ability to get promoted does not necessary mean the ability to get high quality intel. Many have been promoted for other reasons not associated with work ability. If your boss is useless and is a balls carrier, he expects the same from you! And you may even end up with a national day award. Again, this took place and insiders reading this will be laughing coz they know it is true and who benefitted from thse non-work qualities.Scholars struggle because of various reasons. Politicking is the cardinal reason. It is a service not too friendly to scholars coz the presence of the orang lamas remain pretty strong. Scholars may make their presence felt years down the road when conditions are more ideal.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The Unnecessary extended detention of ideologues and labelling people marxists has screwed the govt as well.

On the terrorist side, it has excellent rep. Interestingly both ISD and Special Branch gave significant details on the al Qaeda to the US well before the USS Cole bombing. The Americans had their head buried in their arse for so long. The Australians have been reliant on the Americans and have been misled. They even wrongly credited the Americans for intelligence obtained when it came from Singapore which they erroneously reported in their parliament.

Occasionally we get it very wrong as well. Rohan Gunaratna is a case in point. To me this is a Charlatan. On his advice we are training the Pakistanis how to rehabilitate Islamist extremist using the Sri Lankan rehabilitation scheme as an example. One is sectarian in nature involving two difference ethnicities who fought on nationalism. The other is based on level of religious fervour and mis interpretation of the Koran. Our own homegrown methodology is better.
In reply Scrobal:ISD has too much of a bad name from the Marxist stuff.
 
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GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Of the 3 scholars that ended up heading ISD in the past, one went renegade and ended up in the same payroll of Gentings who also had an IGP and Head of Special Branch in its stable - disgraceful. Same lot that tried to give Stanley a back door stake in Sentosa Gentings. Son has alot more faith in scholars but prefers to drop them in as Head.

Gentings? If it is the person I know, it is MBS not Gentings.
 
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