Tan Kin Lian - An Opportunist? Let see the Facts

[IR123]

The whole issue appears to be due to a WP member picking up forms for TKL. The allegation is that TKL engineered the entire episode.

Other supporting assumptions are that he is a failure because the PAP did not let him run for MP, he came into mini-bonds yet whilst ...(i am not clear about the allegation here - is it saying he perpetuates mini-bonds whilst he was in NTUC and now defends the rights of mini-bonds holders when he is out of NTUC?...)

.................................


Stand back and see when did this come about. TKL said that if elected, he will influence the investment decisions. Professor Jayakumar warn about imputing roles into the EP.

Alarm bells seem to be ringing as the possibility of TKL standing for election comes about. Questions about the eligibility criteria abound. It was so stringent that no one can apply for years. Now that some can, there is a need to block competition. No matter how much more stringent the criteria is, there will still be TKLs coming forth. Some like the idea of abolishing the EP for now and bring it back when the PAP loses more than 50% of the seats. Why not go for the ultimate: abolish the EP and write it into the constitution that only the PAP can appoint the President.


The truth of the matter is that this is an Elected Office. It is also an Office with limited power. Nonetheless it holds the right to veto spending of the reserves amongst other limited rights. Thus it is a safeguard of the public to vote in whoever they choses, be it President Nathan for a third term, Tan Kin Lian or Tan Cheng Bok.

Can TKL fulfil this role of asking for more information before he vote on the reserves? Yes he can. Will he? Seems like. OTC ask for information. Did Nathan ask for information? Not to my knowledge but then he may already have the information for all we know and that is the reason he is not asking.

Will Tan Cheng Bock ask for information? I do not know him so you might like to answer this question. If you say he will ask for such information, then you have another possibility for EP.

So at least three choices abound, one from the PAP, the other two from TKL and TCB.

Good choices all. Take your pick. That is what privileges in a democracy mean. Being able to choose your representatives in Parliament and now in Presidency.



.............

The allegation that TKL is an opportunist is irrelevant because if true, opportunism does not equate to dishonesty.

If that bothers you, don't vote for him.

Also if TKL is an opportunist, it does not mean that TCB and the other candidate are not opportunists. Or will not become opportunist once they assume the Presidency.

Finally if TKL is NOT an opportunist because the facts are misinterpreted, then you would have denied yourself and others of a good President.

Worse if because of your disbelief in TKL, you now seek to abolish the entire EP.

 

[aurvandil]

So at least three choices abound, one from the PAP, the other two from TKL and TCB.

Good choices all. Take your pick. That is what privileges in a democracy mean. Being able to choose your representatives in Parliament and now in Presidency.

Well said !!!

 

[jw5]

Being an apolitical individual, I had the same impression when I read the article.

1. Why cant TKL pick up the forms himself?
2. Has he no other friends or relatives who can pick up the forms for him?

Ok, say he had legitimate reasons and the choice was incidental...

3. Why did he mention "my friend from the WP"?
4. "A man" picked up the forms for Mr Chiam, did Mr Chiam even made any reference to who the man was and his background? Obviously not, at least I didnt happen to read it.

I had the same questions as you, at least 1 to 3.
For question 4, perhaps Chiam didn't mention it because he didn't even know who picked up the forms, as he did not ask anyone to. Even if he knew, he didn't initiate it.

"I don't know how to say" :o
it better, but I just don't have a good feeling for the man. My apologies if anyone is offended. :o
In Mandarin, the 20+ year old girls would say "Mei Gan Jue." :o
He doesn't touch me the way someone like Michelle from the SDP does, a calm reassuring presence.

TCB was a pappy mp and he was a pap member most of his life, and these are negatives on him.
But there are 2 things about him that are in his favour, in my view.

1. I believe he cares more about people than money. This is based on stories I hear from real people (not forummers) whom he has helped or at least tried to. Yes, he benefitted from being a pappy mp, but I think he was one of the rare ones who tried to help people in his life.

2. He was the director and chairman of one listed company. He admitted recently that when he first became the chairman, there were legitimate questions asked whether a medical doctor was suitable to be the chairman of a listed company. It is also questionable, at least among us forummers, whether mps should be directors of listed companies.

But he maintained that he would be the director of only 1 listed company and he kept to that. During his tenure, the company had no corporate governance issues of note. If I'm not mistaken, despite being a small company, the company even got some awards for transparency and good corporate governance.
He is the kind of chap who tries to do the right things and when he has a task, tries to do it really well for the benefit of the ordinary chap.

Like I said about it not really being Siok Chin's fault that she has an unusual brother, it's not really TCB's fault that he has a wooden friend who suffers from amnesia and likes to eat peanuts. :o

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

There are two things to ascertain here.

1) Did Png did it willingly, supporting TKL?
2) Did he know the implications?

I would say, Png can't be a naive guy and for both 1 & 2, he knows exactly what it is all about. If he is really that naive and WP fielded him as candidate, then I worry.

People may view it differently but I take it at the face value. Png just supported TKL in his own capacity. WP did not issue an official support for TKL or in fact, LTK has specifically said that WP is not going to endorse anyone because WP didn't believe in Elected Presidency. Neither did NSP issue any statement of endorsement, even I as the SG is helping TKL now. Even SDP did not issue any official statement of endorsement because I think it is still premature to do so as the certificate of eligibility has not been issued yet.

For a matter as serious as Elected Presidency, I would expect a formal official endorsement before I can conclude anything. AS WP has official decline any endorsement on any candidate, I would take it as it is; Png is basically supporting his old friend.

But to say that Png is that naive and easily manipulated by TKL, I think it will look bad on Png and WP rather than TKL.

Goh Meng Seng

If Png had any sense, he would know or realise that he was a mere pawn. The target was to use the WP name. In branding world it is a guerrilla marketing. There is no such thing as in doing it in his personal capacity within the realm of politics. Png was picking up forms for EP - an elected political office. Png was not picking up TKL's medication for his ailments or cakes for his birthday party. Either Png is gullible or he is smitten by TKL. If he did wil full knowledge of WP, he has some explaining to do.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

People questioning why TKL did not take the forms himself but never question why George Yeo didn't pick up the forms himself? Strange. George Yeo may be out of town but the closing date for submission is still far away!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[jw5]

But to say that Png is that naive and easily manipulated by TKL, I think it will look bad on Png and WP rather than TKL.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS

The issue is with TKL now, not Png.
Png is history for now, at least till 2016. What he did or didn't do this time doesn't matter, because we are looking at TKL with a microscope or magnifying glass.
You should try and answer forummer Unrepented's questions 1 to 3.
Better still, get TKL to answer them. I'm sure we would all be eager to hear his replies.

Btw, when can we expect to receive the petition?

 

[Seee3]

People questioning why TKL did not take the forms himself but never question why George Yeo didn't pick up the forms himself? Strange. ..

Very simple. People like GY more than TKL lah. OR GY has long been written off.

 

[jw5]

People questioning why TKL did not take the forms himself but never question why George Yeo didn't pick up the forms himself? Strange. George Yeo may be out of town but the closing date for submission is still far away!

Goh Meng Seng

We did question that, you happened to be "not here".
I was one of the first to ask:
"Why go Taiwan on Monday morning and then ask his "friends" to collect on Monday afternoon huh? Cannot collect on Friday meh?" :o

Don't worry GMS, we have been in this forum long enough and you should know that. For me, since 1999, even before you right? We look at and question anybody and anything, everything and everybody is fair game.

 

[ruffles]

NTUC Income never peddled those Lehman Minibonds to its customers. Under Mr Tan, NTUC Income piloted many social initiatives for lower-income Singaporeans, e.g. car-sharing, student care centres, fitness centres, travel agency and snow city etc.

He is a man with good judgement and conscience, and he has the welfare of Singaporeans at heart. We can expect him to exercise his presidential duties diligently.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The thing is this, if you want to smear or talk bad about others, make sure you talk sense.

Png is older than me and I believe he is definitely wiser than what Perspective tries to paint him to be. A person who can get into WP CEC and fielded as a candidate in an important battlefield at East Coast GRC cannot be that idiotic or naive.

I do not think TKL is able or want to manipulate his old friend Png. Different people do things differently. Some will want the limelight and go and collect the forms themselves. Some want to shy away from the limelight first because there is one hurdle to cross... the 5 wise man committee. Nothing special here.

Yes, the issue is about TKL but if people try to use funny logic or funny tales trying to discredit him, I think we must first point out that stupidity first. It just happens that it involves Png, that's all.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS

The issue is with TKL now, not Png.
Png is history for now, at least till 2016. What he did or didn't do this time doesn't matter, because we are looking at TKL with a microscope or magnifying glass.
You should try and answer forummer Unrepented's questions 1 to 3.
Better still, get TKL to answer them. I'm sure we would all be eager to hear his replies.

Btw, when can we expect to receive the petition?

 

[jw5]

The thing is this, if you want to smear or talk bad about others, make sure you talk sense.

Png is older than me and I believe he is definitely wiser than what Perspective tries to paint him to be. A person who can get into WP CEC and fielded as a candidate in an important battlefield at East Coast GRC cannot be that idiotic or naive.

Fair enough GMS, but do consider answering forummer Unrepented's questions 1 to 3.
Many ordinary people (voters) who are not part of any political parties or do not know the potential candidates well, want to know the answers.

And if you (or TKL) have time, please also consider answering my question when we can expect to receive the petition.

For most of us, most certainly me, we just want to choose the best candidate available to be the president of our country. It's really that simple.

 

[Varuna]

George Yeo may be out of town but the closing date for submission is still far away!

GMS, maybe we can huntum GY for a reason to that separately. But GY's case here still does not naturally absolve TKL from the doubts and suspicions over his genuine intention.

 

[rover2sg]

My answer as to who I will support for the RP is - "who cares?".

With the very limited power of the EP and all the wayangs going on, I wish voting is not compulsory.

If need to, I will put in a "blank" vote.

 

[jw5]

If he did wil full knowledge of WP, he has some explaining to do.

Scroobal,
Do you mean that if he did without full knowledge of WP, he has some explaining to do?
Would have thought that if he did with full knowledge of WP, it is WP which has some explaining to do!

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

GMS, maybe we can huntum GY for a reason to that separately. But GY's case here still does not naturally absolve TKL from the doubts and suspicions over his genuine intention.

I really have no problems with people asking friends or supporters to collect forms for them. Not everybody is like me, doesn't even wink with all the cameras and spotlight in front of me.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[scroobal]

They should have just created a custody committee and have sector experts in financial prudence and other respectable luminaries make the decison or recommendation. This is a mess. Can you imagine a qualified candidate attempting to create the impression that he can use the office for influence the investment. That is poor form.

The role of the President is to safegaurd the reserves.

The role is kind of meaningless if you have Ho Ching squandering away the reserves at the back via bad investment decisions.

Btw you previous tip appears to be correct and an exit date for Ho Ching has finally emerged. With the lack of any kind of proper accounting, no one will ever know just how much money was lost.

In approving the appointment of a key appointment holders, the President would be exercising due dilligence if he asks pointed questions about what the person would do once he/she is in office. For example suppose we get a new head for Temasek. As an act of due dilligence, the President might ask how the person would run Temasek Holdings. If the person represnts something which causes concern to the President (e.g. I am going to do aggressive high risk high return investment), then the President should exercise his power and not approve the appointment.

 

[scroobal]

This used to be talk of the financial sector. The Product head or the Head of the Business Line would have their name on such letters and sign off. Not this guy. When you do not even recognise your staff, how are you going to bring people together. It also goes to the point about how he manipulates others.

When Tan Kin Lian was in charge of Income, Uncle noticed that everything was signed under his name. He takes credit for all the good things and when there were complaints he directed others to answer. He never gave credit to his staff.

The result was that I refused to have anything to do with Income until he left.

God help Singapore if he ever by miracle become President. He might changed the Istana into Tan Kin Lian's palace.

 

[aurvandil]

They should have just created a custody committee and have sector experts in financial prudence and other respectable luminaries make the decison or recommendation. This is a mess. Can you imagine a qualified candidate attempting to create the impression that he can use the office for influence the investment. That is poor form.

Agree that it is a huge mess. The fact they didn't see it coming shows just ill prepared they were for GE 2011.
If you had any kind of inkling that GE 2011 would turn out the way it did, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the next crisis point will be the EP.

Given the short time frame till 31 Aug 2011, there does not appear to be any way we can revert to an appointed President. Changing it to a custody commitee is even more radical and would require even more time.

The best bet is for the PAP is to drag TCH or KBW out and hope the chosen one can beat TKL / TCB.

 

[scroobal]

Scroobal,

With due respect, BOTH TKL and TCB drink from the same pool; TCB got his MP position and allowances because he stood under PAP ticket. No matter how "critical" he could be, he was still a PAP MP who will not bite too hard on his masters' hands. On top of that, TCB got his "credibility' because he is a PAP MP.

I tend not to agree. I am sure you will agree that PAP is an unusual party. Its MPs in the main are offered the role before they join the party. That has been their model for last 40 years. Tan Cheng Bock was a pain to the Govt from the moment he began practising medicine in Ama Keng village. He was the de-facto village petition writer. As you know Lim Chu Kang and Jurong were Barisan territory. Vincent Cheng's trouble started in Jurong around the same time that Tan Cheng Bock was doing his complaints. Both men came to attention of the authorities. They were both warned. Let me fast forward to Parliament ( there are interesting details in between but that is for another time)

Tan Cheng Bock and Walter Woon made a historic mark in Parliament that no one else achieved. Walter Woon moved the first and only private bill in parliament with heavy support from Kanwaljit Soin. It made the Minister of Community Development look stupid. Tan Cheng Bock voted against his own party without the whip being lifted. He was given an official warning by the party for it. To put in a nutshell, he fought the party within, a promise he kept. Viv B did not. He left the PAP fighting all the way and delivered on some issues.


Take a look at Tan Kin Lian. He joined the PAP, he was not invited as MP. He was branch secretary, chairman of the all powerful CCC and the MCCC. Essentially leader of the govt and PAP controlled grassroots organisations that people have come to despise. Unlike Tan Cheng Bock who ran his own practice, Tan Kin Lian made a living on the backs of NTUC taxi drivers, union members and other GLCs that were told to go to NTUC. He enjoyed the benefits of the party. Until his retirement he did not say anything about the system. The moment that he could no longer milk the system he suddenly is a rebel. Can you recall anything he said to the contrary while in NTUC? You do realise that NTUC is a political organisation and not your neighbourhood co-orperative.

If TCB is truly against PAP or rather, die hard in speaking up against flawed policies, he would have left PAP once he was no longer fielded as PAP candidate, but he didn't. He waited until May this year then step into Presidential race. It is a calculated move, nothing different from any ex-PAP or present PAP MPs who would resign just to stand as candidate for the Presidential Elections.

I am not in the know of what TCB has spoken about against PAP's bad policies when he was not a MP; did he talk about the flawed FT policy AFTER he was not a PAP MP? Did he talk about the ills of HDB policies? Did he raise issues about the ills of the Public Transport system AFTER he retired as MP but yet, still holding his PAP cadre membership card? I have not heard about all these.

Thus, it is just too "demanding" for you to demand TKL who did not have the platform of MP as TCB to speak up against various bad PAP policies PUBLICLY when he was just a PAP cadre member, just like TCB after retirement. Thus, I do not think it is fair for you to do such comparisons.

Well there is whole generation of lower income Singaporeans that completed tertiary education because of one man. And he did it within the system against the grain of the Ministry and the cabinet. Tan Soo Khoon was also the same. Lets not deny them the credit. By the way Tan Soo Khoon was associated with charities for very long time before he became an MP. Maybe you can help Tan Kin Lian secure a letter from a charity to show how long he helped them and what the outcome was. I am sure you realise the President Office is generally engaged in this sector.

You realise that both Tan Soo Khoon and Tan Cheng Back would raise issues when the opposition did not. The opposition can't be covering everything.

For whatever it takes, human beings are dynamic, they change over time. I am not looking for the PERFECT creature, least a human being, to be the President. I am just looking for the best persons within the limited pool of candidates, who could carry out the effective roles of an elected Presidency. I may not even agree to the concept of Elected Presidency but since PAP dictates it that way and that, it was meant to be the last defence line of PAP in the event of it losing parliamentary power eventually, I would like to see how they handle the situation when their intention is used against them.

I do agree that humans change but we must see genuine change. This prick manipulated Png Eng Huat to drag WP into it. You tell me why he mentioned WP. Did WP CEC endorse him. Png is truly a fool. It tells me that the Leopard does not change its spot and the tiger its stripe. The same behavior that he displayed while in NTUC. I cited the case of Bertie Cheng, the CEO of POSB who sat in the next building. Can you recall well groomed POSB tellers from various racial background serving staff. Bertie was well loved by all staff while the opposite was happening next door.

One can change to an ideology or to a religion that is diametrically opposite but the DNA change is near impossible. We are dealing with a character flaw. Being in politics you must know that many people are approached by the PAP to be members are turned them down outright. When offered the tea party sessions they agreed. There is a stigma being a PAP member. I am sure you can tell the difference between a PAP member and PAP MP who joined to be in parliament. Dr Dixie Tan is another. Till to day she resents what was done to JBJ and she is very open about it. Tay Eng Soon and many others were the same. The world is not what the Straits Times says it is.

I just need a person who could perform that role, to put on an effective checks on PAP as the ruling party. Let them have the taste of their own medicine, so to speak. I do not think PAP likes a person like Elected President to check on them; they never wanted to be checked and balanced. EP is just a lame system which they set up for their own future interests, not suppose to be used against them.

Agree that it is a lame system but Tan Kin Lian should not make a fool of the ignorant ones by suggesting things that he fully knows will not happen. Lets face it, he is manipulative to the core. He used Tan Cheng Bock as his guinea pig in his blog survey to test the market on someone who was previously associated with the PAP. Why not himself. Imagine asking for petition from the people. Who does he think he is? I think we have smarter people in the old days when people used to laugh at Harbans Singh ( granted the press was less restrained and there was no monoploy then)

Politicians have all the traits that you have raised. Ego (sometimes very huge), manipulative... whatever. But that is not my concerns because I believe in Democracy basically because I believe human beings have flaws and are not perfect. I do not buy that Socratic "Philosophy King" ideal; that is really a Highfalutin Ideal of LKY. There are really no such people around in the world. Democracy is built upon the premise that human beings are not to be trusted in the long run because no matter how good you are, eventually, power will corrupt you. Yes, if you want to know the strength of one's character, just give him power.

Thus, I am not too concerns about the flaws of each candidates but rather, I am more focus on who can perform the role, the job of checks and balances better among the limited pool of potential candidates.

My support for TKL is not solely based on friendship, really. I judge people not only by their friendship, nor by their good characters or superficial being or just by their flaws. Politically, I judge a person on the chances of whether they could perform the roles that they are supposed to do. Their characters, flaws and even "good points" could have become a hindrance to their role. i.e. A person can be really nice guy but it is precisely because he tried too hard to be a nice guy, he may not perform the role of Elected President well.

Goh Meng Seng

Please do not take this personally. I have a lot of respect for you and what you have accomplished. You are also a people person and you like to offer the benefit of a doubt to everyone. You did things that others did not expect. Till today, people do no realise which team got the biggest swing and the in politics is the single biggest factor to denote unhappiness. My sense is Tan Kin Lian has realised your quality and true his nature is exploiting it. He needs you more than you need him

 

[scroobal]

Funny you mentioned Michelle. I can't explain it but I would vote her in a heartbeat. She also has to academic qualification and the work experience to do the job but she does not qualify. Can you imagine a young President of her demeanour with a young family in tow and how that appeals to the masses.

He doesn't touch me the way someone like Michelle from the SDP does, a calm reassuring presence.