"vote-for-any-except-pap-because-I-hate-pap"

[Clone]

Yes but that's not what Agoraphobic was saying. He said that all "politicians are crooks." There's a vast difference between pragmatic and evil, I think. Cynical attitudes like his is the reason why evil politicians have a free rein in government. To people of his ilk , since all politicians are crooks, there's no need to vote wisely. Politicians wanna fuck us, let them fuck lor.

It takes a crook to fix another. Let them take turns to check on each other.

 

[laksaboy]

Human nature is fallible. That is why we have a democratic system with proper CHECKS AND BALANCES.

If you just want one party/one man/one family to reign for all eternity, might as well scrap the Constitution and declare Singapore an absolute monarchy.

Sadly, the majority of Sinkies will never get it. Throw some freebies their way, promise them flat upgrading, and they drop their pants and bend over.

 

[Cruxx]

Hard Truth Part 2. After Taiwan gain "democracy", the brain drain and stagnate wages of their economy began
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2012/04/08/2003529781

Stop copying and pasting. Argue your own case. Nowhere in the article were the brain drain and wage stagnation attributed to democratic reforms. Please lah Char_Siew. Can you stop embarrassing yourself for once?

 

[Cruxx]

Human nature is fallible. That is why we have a democratic system with proper CHECKS AND BALANCES.

If you just want one party/one man/one family to reign for all eternity, might as well scrap the Constitution and declare Singapore an absolute monarchy.

Sadly, the majority of Sinkies will never get it. Throw some freebies their way, promise them flat upgrading, and they drop their pants and bend over.

I've said a million times liao: all human actions and thoughts are motivated by self-interest. No matter how seemingly benevolent and well-intentioned a dictator is, it's his utopian ideals that you have to live by, not your own. Kuan Yew thinks long hair is bad, you lan lan have to follow. It's for your own good, you see. It infuriates me whenever I see Sinkie sheep dismiss the struggle for freedom and power. Sinkie sheep are happy to conform to the values imposed upon them? Fair enough. But is not the decision to divest oneself of the freedom to choose a free choice in itself? I wonder how the 60% would feel if the 40% were to seize control of the government through violent means. Continue pouring scorn on political freedom and democracy? Slowly but surely, we are seeing the crumbling of the "benevolent dictatorship" myth.

 

[johnny333]

The rightful person(s) to pose these question should be the state's daily newspaper, especially in the editorial section. BUT.................


Cheers!

One can't expect a bunch of "yes" people to provide a fair & balanced reporting.

The PAP has long since co-opted the trade unions & media for their own ends.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Then you should bloody stop distorting and undermining what democracy really stands for. Not all politicians are crooks. If you were to run for office, you wouldn't be a crook, would you? Many have died in the past for the right to vote and here you are dismissing its role as an agent for change. You'd rather shrug your shoulders and lend credence to the oppression of the PAPzis.

In our times, democracy is the choice, or rather what various societies have evolved to, given a choice, they'd opt for democracy, although it is not always one that delivers to type of society its citizens yearn for. One example is Brunei. Its people are happy, contented, and I doubt if anyone there wants a change in its current status. True, its situation is different, but that is not the point here.

Now, look at the democratic countries, change after change of leadership, how much happier are their people? So, is it the governments that determine the plight of the people? Or is it a combination of other factors? I'll say it is the latter. That being the case, then why does this society give so much credit to the PAP for Singapore's success? Do they deserve it?

Having said this, the people of Singapore are not oppressed. They have a chance to vote. Every four or five years. There is democracy in Singapore. No matter what I try to look for to fault the government, I have to admit that it is an elected government. It is a choice of the people. Apparently the majority are quite happy with it.

Cheers!

 

[Agoraphobic]

One can't expect a bunch of "yes" people to provide a fair & balanced reporting.

The PAP has long since co-opted the trade unions & media for their own ends.

Glad I didn't pay Union fees.

Newspaper, only read the sports news; piece of shit newspaper really.

Cheers!

 

[dredd]

In our times, democracy is the choice, or rather what various societies have evolved to, given a choice, they'd opt for democracy, although it is not always one that delivers to type of society its citizens yearn for. One example is Brunei. Its people are happy, contented, and I doubt if anyone there wants a change in its current status. True, its situation is different, but that is not the point here.

Now, look at the democratic countries, change after change of leadership, how much happier are their people? So, is it the governments that determine the plight of the people? Or is it a combination of other factors? I'll say it is the latter. That being the case, then why does this society give so much credit to the PAP for Singapore's success? Do they deserve it?

Having said this, the people of Singapore are not oppressed. They have a chance to vote. Every four or five years. There is democracy in Singapore. No matter what I try to look for to fault the government, I have to admit that it is an elected government. It is a choice of the people. Apparently the majority are quite happy with it.

Cheers!

Your understanding of the word oppression is rudimentary. Oppression means an unjust or excessive exercise of power. When you have a gahment of the day taking control of the press, the judiciary system, the housing, the very way of life... you have a state of oppression. Sure they are elected, but by what means? Buying of votes through giving out state money during elections, using state resources to "coerce" people into voting them in, terrorising political opponents, sometimes incarcerating them or people who don't share their views for terms longer than the world's longest political prisoners... These are not acts of democracy.

Are you even Singaporean? Sounds from your post you don't really know what's going on behind the scenes here.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Anyone visiting Singapore will never say her people are oppressed. That's going by world standards.

They are elected, as far as I see it, in fair elections. As for their control over the press, unions, judiaciary, etc. it is their political ability to have done (and achieved) so. Through legal means.

No one was able to match (or even come close to) the political prowess of LKY in Singapore.

You are right, I am not a Singaporean now.

Cheers!

Your understanding of the word oppression is rudimentary. Oppression means an unjust or excessive exercise of power. When you have a gahment of the day taking control of the press, the judiciary system, the housing, the very way of life... you have a state of oppression. Sure they are elected, but by what means? Buying of votes through giving out state money during elections, using state resources to "coerce" people into voting them in, terrorising political opponents, sometimes incarcerating them or people who don't share their views for terms longer than the world's longest political prisoners... These are not acts of democracy.

Are you even Singaporean? Sounds from your post you don't really know what's going on behind the scenes here.

 

[dredd]

Anyone visiting Singapore will never say her people are oppressed. That's going by world standards.

They are elected, as far as I see it, in fair elections. As for their control over the press, unions, judiaciary, etc. it is their political ability to have done (and achieved) so. Through legal means.

No one was able to match (or even come close to) the political prowess of LKY in Singapore

You are right, I am not a Singaporean now.

Cheers!

I beg to differ. Many in the west see Singapore as an oppressed state. Elections fair? Unless you consider gerrymandering as fair. Go look up this word and then find out what GRC means in Singapore politics. Put them side by side and compare. Control of state media, judiciary, etc... is the work of an oppressed gahment, nothing to do with political ability. Sorry. "Legal" is a term decided by the gahment here. LKY's political prowess can be compared with Tyrants like Robert Mugabe, Kim Ill Sung... Those who are in their fifties will remember how he once tried to social engineer a generation of Singaporeans with his stop at two, graduate mothers scheme..etc...

You are not Singaporean? That explains why you know so little.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Most in the west who've visited Singapore are quite impressed by it, those who haven't but have heard of it, perceive it as a strict place (thanks to Michael Fay). Reports of Sg in western media describe it as a functional place where things work. And some (Goad forbid) make hints of emulating Peesai.

I lived in Singapore upto the early nineties. Compared to liberal industrialized democracies, it was strict. And idiotic - the authorities BANNED full-face helmets and for awhile, evrey motorbike more than 175 cc had to install "crash bars"); the entire motorcycle industry worldwide called these engine guards, only the ST called them crash bars. Long hair was frowned upon, pop/rock show were mostly censored, and if allowed, under controlled conditions. My mother and aunts went through the stop at two stage - but it wasn't forced down their throats, they could've not opted for sterilization if they didn't want to. Graduate couples? He suggested, but there wasn't a fine for not following. Despite all these, Singaporeans enjoyed freedom to vote, form political parties, travel to most places on the planet, practice their religion/cultural rituals and celebrations. This is not a sign of an oppressive state.

The only thing the idiots in Sg did cock-up on was repeatedly vote the same cock-heads again. What can I say??

BTW, although I disagree with LKY, I wouldn't place him in the same boat as the other two you mentioned. LKY gets invited to top Unis the world over and get given medals (I wouldn't give it to him though), I doubt if these organizations will bestow the same to these other tyrants.

I am not Singaporean, I don't need to know the itty-bitty details of the island city-state, just enough to get by will suffice.

Cheers!

I beg to differ. Many in the west see Singapore as an oppressed state. Elections fair? Unless you consider gerrymandering as fair. Go look up this word and then find out what GRC means in Singapore politics. Put them side by side and compare. Control of state media, judiciary, etc... is the work of an oppressed gahment, nothing to do with political ability. Sorry. "Legal" is a term decided by the gahment here. LKY's political prowess can be compared with Tyrants like Robert Mugabe, Kim Ill Sung... Those who are in their fifties will remember how he once tried to social engineer a generation of Singaporeans with his stop at two, graduate mothers scheme..etc...

You are not Singaporean? That explains why you know so little.

 

[dredd]

Most in the west who've visited Singapore are quite impressed by it, those who haven't but have heard of it, perceive it as a strict place (thanks to Michael Fay). Reports of Sg in western media describe it as a functional place where things work. And some (Goad forbid) make hints of emulating Peesai.

I lived in Singapore upto the early nineties. Compared to liberal industrialized democracies, it was strict. And idiotic - the authorities BANNED full-face helmets and for awhile, evrey motorbike more than 175 cc had to install "crash bars"); the entire motorcycle industry worldwide called these engine guards, only the ST called them crash bars. Long hair was frowned upon, pop/rock show were mostly censored, and if allowed, under controlled conditions. My mother and aunts went through the stop at two stage - but it wasn't forced down their throats, they could've not opted for sterilization if they didn't want to. Graduate couples? He suggested, but there wasn't a fine for not following. Despite all these, Singaporeans enjoyed freedom to vote, form political parties, travel to most places on the planet, practice their religion/cultural rituals and celebrations. This is not a sign of an oppressive state.

The only thing the idiots in Sg did cock-up on was repeatedly vote the same cock-heads again. What can I say??

BTW, although I disagree with LKY, I wouldn't place him in the same boat as the other two you mentioned. LKY gets invited to top Unis the world over and get given medals (I wouldn't give it to him though), I doubt if these organizations will bestow the same to these other tyrants.

I am not Singaporean, I don't need to know the itty-bitty details of the island city-state, just enough to get by will suffice.

Cheers!

All oppressive states "allow" their citizens to vote. All oppressive states "allow" political parties to be formed. So could they travel, ...etc. Take Burma for example. It's a different perspective when you are merely visiting a place as opposed to living in one. You don't vote, you know shit-all about the gerrymandering that happens here, you are not subject to the laws involved in day-to-day living for Singaporeans like competition, housing, transportation...etc, you are not Singaporean, so you will never understand. If you are only satisfied to know bits just to get by, I suggest you don't get into debates and try to sound smart alecky with REAL citizens who feel a change is necessary for their OWN land to move forward, just like I won't get into a debate with a genuine American when I am only visiting the US or working there about the state of affairs there.

 

[dredd]

And for your point about LKY. What do you call someone who incarcerates people for decades, throw away the keys, bankrupt people, deprive them of a livelihood, ...? What was their crime? Perhaps if you had been "punished" by him, you wouldn't be so forgiving. For the good of Singapore? I think more for the hold on power.

 

[Orion]

All politicians are crooks. When you vote, you pick the lesser of two evils, that's all.

My PRC colleague once told me, in a democratic system, the difference is you have a choice to elect who fucks you.

Cheers!

lol, u make my day, so funny lmao

 

[johnny333]

Most in the west who've visited Singapore are quite impressed by it, those who haven't but have heard of it, perceive it as a strict place (thanks to Michael Fay). Reports of Sg in western media describe it as a functional place where things work. And some (Goad forbid) make hints of emulating Peesai......

Many tourists from the 1st world only have a superficial understanding of Spore When they find out about caning, the obscene salaries the PAP gov't gets, etc... they are shocked.

If you talk to more knowledgeable expats who have worked in Spore, many know about the real situation here. Such as Dr. Christopher Lingle who previously worked at NUS For those with short memories you can read about it here: http://www.thelockeinstitute.org/books/lingle.html

Is it any wonder that people fear the vindictive Lee regime

 

[Agoraphobic]

All oppressive states "allow" their citizens to vote. All oppressive states "allow" political parties to be formed. So could they travel, ...etc. Take Burma for example. It's a different perspective when you are merely visiting a place as opposed to living in one. You don't vote, you know shit-all about the gerrymandering that happens here, you are not subject to the laws involved in day-to-day living for Singaporeans like competition, housing, transportation...etc, you are not Singaporean, so you will never understand. If you are only satisfied to know bits just to get by, I suggest you don't get into debates and try to sound smart alecky with REAL citizens who feel a change is necessary for their OWN land to move forward, just like I won't get into a debate with a genuine American when I am only visiting the US or working there about the state of affairs there.

Burma, until very recently was an oppressive state. Syu-Kii won an election many years ago, only to be arrested by the military Junta. There were no elections again until just a few weeks ago.

Cheers!

 

[Agoraphobic]

And for your point about LKY. What do you call someone who incarcerates people for decades, throw away the keys, bankrupt people, deprive them of a livelihood, ...? What was their crime? Perhaps if you had been "punished" by him, you wouldn't be so forgiving. For the good of Singapore? I think more for the hold on power.

Bro, that's politics. In some other countries you get shot, or simply dissappear. For those who wish to contest in heavyweight division, better be a heavyweight yourself.

Cheers!

 

[Agoraphobic]

Many tourists from the 1st world only have a superficial understanding of Spore When they find out about caning, the obscene salaries the PAP gov't gets, etc... they are shocked.

If you talk to more knowledgeable expats who have worked in Spore, many know about the real situation here. Such as Dr. Christopher Lingle who previously worked at NUS For those with short memories you can read about it here: http://www.thelockeinstitute.org/books/lingle.html



Is it any wonder that people fear the vindictive Lee regime

I agree with all that.

Lee is not an easy adversary if one chose to confront him. Like I said earlier, no one in Singapore comes close to the political might he wields. However, he does all these legally - through the courts, not via thugs and/or hired goons with guns who resort to violence, intimidation and thuggery. One is allowed to form a political party and stand for elections (within the law of course.)

Cheers!

 

[myo539]

All politicians are crooks. When you vote, you pick the lesser of two evils, that's all.

My PRC colleague once told me, in a democratic system, the difference is you have a choice to elect who fucks you. Cheers!

Isn't that nice then? You can elect Zhang Ziyi to sayang you or to elect another powerful lady from Singapore to sayang you. Hougang residents elected to pick an unknown to sayang them. I think they are very happy.

Non-Hougang residents are extremely happy for them too - because it safely didn't happen in their backyard. They are enjoying the best of both worlds.

 

[Agoraphobic]

Hougang is a WP stronghold. PAP might as well not contest there.

And the present state of affairs in Singapore, too bad for the PAP as they are holding the reins, but I doubt the WP or anyone else can change the direction the city-state is going.

If I were there (or anywhere in Singapore) voting, I will still vote against the ruling party as I have a soft spot for the under-dog, and I can't stand high-handedness.

Cheers!

Isn't that nice then? You can elect Zhang Ziyi to sayang you or to elect another powerful lady from Singapore to sayang you. Hougang residents elected to pick an unknown to sayang them. I think they are very happy.

Non-Hougang residents are extremely happy for them too - because it safely didn't happen in their backyard. They are enjoying the best of both worlds.