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Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

ZorrorroZ

Alfrescian
Loyal
but when it comes down to NS policy, the government only see black or white and not varying shades of grey.


Unfortunately... it is actually the opposite of what you are saying.... the government has no clear black or white policy about NS deferment... you apply to CMPB to defer... and it is a "case by case" basis (various shades of grey).
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Let me try and make this clear for everyone.

1) the policy within the Ministry (not told to outside public) is clear and consistent over decades. The criteria is not about being a born a Singapore citizen or having acquired citizenship as a child. If that was the case, there would not be any need further further discussion or threads of this nature. The fate is sealed. Which is not the case.

2) if you have migrated as a family to a new country, the sons if they have left before the cut-off age (11 in the past, 13 now) are not required to do NS, if they follow the procedures. They require you to furnish the copy of the first entry PR stamp of the new country that is in your Singapore passport. There are also other consideration such as not returning in the intervening years and enjoying the privileges of citizenship. They can however visit repeatedly, enjoy the food and drinks etc.

3) In all the cases where advise were sought, and if the procedures have been followed, the NS liability is taken out. Mindef actually sends reminders and notices to alert you the next steps.

4) A number of forummers have been be given wring advice by Mindef contact first line staff. Others have been wrongly advised by friends and families. This is unfortunately an outcome of Mindef position of not stating the requirements clearly. The Singapore Embassy in the US had a clear set of requirements on its website for a while but removed subsequently.

If your family and you have no intention of migrating to a new country and starting a new life, you will not get the NS waiver. Since the inception of NS, people who are too clever by half have tried everything including giving birth in foreign country during a short visit, acquiring foreign citizenship only for son etc all these will not get you a waiver.

During GE2011, one joker wrote about his plight in Canada as his father sent him to Canada as a student, started a business for him and got him the citizenship as well while the rest of the family were in Singapore. What a dumb family. The guy even wrote to SDP to appeal.

It does not mean the family cannot return to Singapore to work and live subsequently A migrating family can return, live and work here on employment and dependent pass, even acquire PR whilst holding on their acquired foreign citizenship. Some of them have done just that.


Apparently there is a scenario (to which I think Scroobal has alluded) where if the child has spent the majority of his time outside of Singapore before the age of 12 e.g. family migration, these would be mitigating factors towards getting NS exemption/deferment. Personally, I have not come across such a case but one thing that I am certain of is that Singapore citizens will have a harder case arguing for NS exemption/deferment than a PR.

The 'get out' clause for 2nd generation PRs (who wish to avoid NS) is that they will lose their PR rights and privileges but may still remain in the country as an employment pass holder. Not an ideal scenario for them but better than leaving Singapore. A citizen doesn't have this option.
 
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neddy

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Let me try and make this clear for everyone.

1) the policy within the Ministry (not told to outside public) is clear and consistent over decades. The criteria is not about being a born a Singapore citizen or having acquired citizenship as a child. If that was the case, there would not be any need further further discussion or threads of this nature. The fate is sealed. Which is not the case.

And we are hearing all these in SBF forum by a "scroobal" who do not even provide any written evidence from the Singapore government. If even the information from the Singapore Embassy in US is removed, Can we take the words of a netizen?

Even the civil servants have no idea how to deal with NS cases. May as well listen to a sotong psychic.

What kind of fucking dictatorship keeep all these info from its people.

Singaporeans are jokers, living ignorantly because they concede too much power to the absolute power in charge.

Why believe "scroobal" and not Mindef ?

The whole NS thing is a joke on a people (including me). Will anyone start a NGO to demand the Singapore government to state its NS policy clearly.

No offence. Jut venting on the internet, to do so in Singapore I will be arrested by mata.



Another joke on Singaporeans. Ignorance is no excuse. You have to find out.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
This is classic PAP small minded approach where citizens are considered children and things are kept to a need to know basis.

There are so many Singaporeans defaulters out in the world who cannot return at all because of undue amount of secrecy. This govt can be unequivocal when it come to the British and US in regard to their families residing here but not to the own citizens. Sadly some of the information had to be gleaned from British and US families.

Recently had a case where a forummer was wrongly told by Mindef Contact Centre after his family migrated
that he is required to put a bond for his son to get the exit permit at age 13. Wrong information and he then got the right information. I also know of a perm sec who wrongly advised a family. Imagine their own staff have not clue what the correct procedure is.

This sort of secrecy will not be tolerated in the first world country. Frankly finding loopholes to be abused if the full procedures is revealed does not hold much water either. The President's son affair was telling case why transparency is so important. Without netizens, no one will be any wiser about the 12 years of freedom.

And we are hearing all these in SBF forum by a "scroobal" who do not even provide any written evidence from the Singapore government. If even the information from the Singapore Embassy in US is removed, Can we take the words of a netizen?

Even the civil servants have no idea how to deal with NS cases. May as well listen to a sotong psychic.

What kind of fucking dictatorship keeep all these info from its people.

Singaporeans are jokers, living ignorantly because they concede too much power to the absolute power in charge.

Why believe "scroobal" and not Mindef ?

The whole NS thing is a joke on a people (including me). Will anyone start a NGO to demand the Singapore government to state its NS policy clearly.

No offence. Jut venting on the internet, to do so in Singapore I will be arrested by mata.
 

watchman8

Alfrescian
Loyal
The whole NS thing is a joke on a people (including me). Will anyone start a NGO to demand the Singapore government to state its NS policy clearly.
The moment much publicity is made of this route of "escaping" NS, PAP will come down hard and totally close this door, because there will be too many people rushing to go on this route if they can afford/willing to migrate.

I guess one just have to rely on personal contacts with people who has successfully siam NS.

If really want to escape NS hardship and MINDEF rejected appeal, there are 2 drastic ways. One is to be a defaulter, and the other is to go overseas to find a doctor who can help you create an arm fracture right before enlistment. Confirm become a PES E clerk. I have heard of too many rich sons getting fractures right before enlistment iwhile on overseas skiing holidays.
 

evian

Alfrescian
Loyal
Unfortunately... it is actually the opposite of what you are saying.... the government has no clear black or white policy about NS deferment... you apply to CMPB to defer... and it is a "case by case" basis (various shades of grey).

The point I am trying to get across is that when Mindef is faced with mounting appeals for exemption or deferment from would-be defaulters, the more exceptions they make (to grant exemption or deferment) based on an individual's circumstances, the more likely this may set new precedents. Precedents that potentially NS defaulters could use to their advantage when arguing the merits of their own situation.

The case by case argument is a fallacy since I would imagine 95% of the appeals would be rejected. Of course, if you're a member of the MIW, the rules are completely different. You only have to cite the case of Tony Tan's son 13 year deferment to smell the stench of nepotism that is going on here.

Also, would you really expect Yaacob Ibrahim's son to return to Singapore to serve his NS had his U.S citizenship status not been exposed by Wikileaks? Of course not. He would merely have followed in the footsteps of Patrick Tan and enjoyed the fruits of the U.S.

The hypocrisy and lack of transparency of NS policy is astounding. For something that is so established into the lives of male Singaporeans, why hasn't anyone at least challenged this, if only for the benefit of future generations?
 

watchman8

Alfrescian
Loyal
The point I am trying to get across is that when Mindef is faced with mounting appeals for exemption or deferment from would-be defaulters, the more exceptions they make (to grant exemption or deferment) based on an individual's circumstances, the more likely this may set new precedents. Precedents that potentially NS defaulters could use to their advantage when arguing the merits of their own situation.

The case by case argument is a fallacy since I would imagine 95% of the appeals would be rejected. Of course, if you're a member of the MIW, the rules are completely different. You only have to cite the case of Tony Tan's son 13 year deferment to smell the stench of nepotism that is going on here.

Also, would you really expect Yaacob Ibrahim's son to return to Singapore to serve his NS had his U.S citizenship status not been exposed by Wikileaks? Of course not. He would merely have followed in the footsteps of Patrick Tan and enjoyed the fruits of the U.S.

The hypocrisy and lack of transparency of NS policy is astounding. For something that is so established into the lives of male Singaporeans, why hasn't anyone at least challenged this, if only for the benefit of future generations?
The extent of internet leaks and expose in recent years has a balancing effect that puts fear into the establishment. Whoever tries to pull yakult stunt is going to get punished. I think the elites are now going the route of overseas sports injury for their sons to avoid NS hardship. After all, two years of clerical duties is not that bad, many even have time to do part time courses.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Evian

Exemption is for migrating families who have sons who are below a certain age when they left. As long as they meet the criteria the exemption is given. The only case by case consideration is when the procedures are not followed or when application for exit permit / deferment is late. Typically you pay a compoundable fine similar to a parking ticket before the case moves back into the formal process for exemption.

For non-migrating families there are no case by case basis for NS exemption other than for medical reason. Everyone has to do it. There are also those that are not called up for NS for national security reasons but these are unilateral decision by the Govt.

Threads like this is for those who are migrating or who have migrated.

Comments like everyone who is a born with a Singapore citizenship even for those who migrate must also do NS is erroneous and misleading. It has led to confusion and sons coming back and wasting 2 years in a place which is no longer their home and their country.
 

ZorrorroZ

Alfrescian
Loyal
Having been thru NSF and reservist myself, up to just a few years ago, I would have been proud to have my son follow in my footsteps and do his bit for the country.

Sadly, events of the last few years have made me realise that there is no longer any point in being loyal to this country. Its leaders have sold the country to enrich themselves. Now NS is just risking your life to protect foreigners, who will return to their own country at the drop of a hat. Singaporeans have become second class citizens in their own country. And thus, I think the time has come to look after your own family needs first, and wish good luck to those who wish to remain behind.
 

watchman8

Alfrescian
Loyal
Having been thru NSF and reservist myself, up to just a few years ago, I would have been proud to have my son follow in my footsteps and do his bit for the country.

Sadly, events of the last few years have made me realise that there is no longer any point in being loyal to this country. Its leaders have sold the country to enrich themselves. Now NS is just risking your life to protect foreigners, who will return to their own country at the drop of a hat. Singaporeans have become second class citizens in their own country. And thus, I think the time has come to look after your own family needs first, and wish good luck to those who wish to remain behind.
The irony was apparently lost on some senior SaF officers. A couple of years ago, a BMT commander forced march his brood from changi point to marina float platform for the passing out parade. The AIM was to inspire the recruits, and a visual view of what they are doing NS to protect. The view is spectacular, but what are they protecting? A casino, buildings owned by foreigners and jobs for foreigners. The new soldiers will discover that their Ns liability and reservist service will become a hindrance to them getting good jobs.
 

neddy

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Having been thru NSF and reservist myself, up to just a few years ago, I would have been proud to have my son follow in my footsteps and do his bit for the country.


Just thinking aloud.
It is better for your son to use the NS years (the most important period of his life) to come out with the next big billionaire idea. A lot of technology/business leaders today have their headstart during this period (and some never even graduate from college) eg Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc.

If he need to develop discipline, send him to Tae Kwan Do class or the school's Australian Army Cadets , Singapore NS is not necessary. It is just a cheap labour watchman*/security guard for the country and cleaner during National Day.

(*No offense to Watchman8)
 
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watchman8

Alfrescian
Loyal
(*No offense to Watchman8)
Absolutely no offense taken. That's the background of my nick. I was on jarga duty during NS. Plenty of time to think about the meaninglessness of NS to protect foreigners who are earning a lot more than my miserable NS pay.
 

ZorrorroZ

Alfrescian
Loyal
Here is a story about a guy who lived his life here, did his NS, yet the Govt jerks him around by not giving him a PR or Citizenship.
'It sucks not belonging anywhere'

The New Paper | Fri, Dec 28, 2012

SINGAPORE - You know that pink identity card

Mr Delvis Ng, 27, had one just like that five years ago. His two younger Singapore-born siblings and his parents have pink ICs.

But, at 22, he was forced to give his up. Like his mother, Mr Ng was also born in Malaysia.

But while she had given up her Malaysian citizenship, he couldn't because of a missing

Now he shuttles between Sarawak and Singapore on temporary travel documents.

Mr Ng grew up in Singapore and did national service here as a storeman in the navy.

According to the law here, when he turned 21, he had to decide to be a Singapore citizen or a

He opted to renounce his Malaysian citizenship before taking the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty before his 22th birthday.

He was told at the Malaysian embassy that he needed his mother's Malaysian IC to renounce his citizenship. But she no longer kept her Malaysian documents after becoming a Singapore citizen in 1991.

When he turned 22, he had to turn in his pink Singapore IC because he was unable to renounce his Malaysian citizenship.

"It sucks not belonging anywhere," said Mr Ng.

"I've lost count of the number of times I've been to the ICA (Immigration and Checkpoints Authority) and the Malaysian embassy to explain the situation to them. It didn't work," said Mr Ng, who had no documents to prove that he is a Malaysian citizen.

As instructed, he also surrendered his Singapore passport and identity card at the ICA. That meant that he had no documents to get out of the country. It was also difficult for him to find work because he did not have

His life, he said, came to a standstill for about four years. "I couldn't fly anywhere, I couldn't work. I wanted to work so badly."

He had previously worked as a tattoo artist in a studio here for two years, but the owner told him he had to go as she did not want to get into trouble with the authorities.

"I just bummed at home, came up with tattoo

It was only in October last year that he managed to get an emergency passport from the Malaysian embassy here.

This was after his mother, Madam Doris Ak Tambi, 53, went to Kuala Lumpur in the middle of last year to try to get a passport for him - one of the five or six times she has travelled there

She said she was rejected and told to return to the Malaysian embassy here.

"I would spend whole days at the KL office. They looked at me like I was nobody, there to

With the emergency passport, Mr Ng went to Kuala Lumpur to get his Malaysian passport and IC - a measure which, he said, was a last resort to get to work here.

Then came the days of going to and fro, spending 30 days in each country.

Mr Ng's father was an engineer with an oil company when he was sent to Sarawak in 1981 and fell in love with his mother, a Sarawakian Iban. They married in a traditional Iban ceremony and at a church in 1983.

Mr Ng was born in Miri while his Singaporean father was still working there in 1985.

He came to Singapore with his Malaysian mother a few years later, on a shared passport.

He attended Elias Park Primary School and East View Secondary School, later graduating with an engineering diploma from Temasek

Now, during his 30-day stays here on a tourist visa, he lives out of a suitcase in the bedroom

His family of five, all Singaporean save for him, have lived in a Pasir Ris five-room flat for the

Both his 21-year-old brother, who is in NS, and 17-year-old sister, a private school student,

When time's up for Mr Ng, he leaves for Miri, Sarawak, where he was born. He counts the

Flying to Miri is $200, and lodging and transport come to another $900 every month.

He works as a tattoo artist in Miri but his mother ends up sending money because he does not earn enough to cover his expenses.

"I've spent all my savings. I'm supposed to spend it when I'm 55, not now," he said.

"It's tough because my mother (a cancer survivor) is here, my father is here, my friends.

"Over there, I know only a few colleagues. Time

There is hope for him though. About a year ago, Mr Ng approached his MP, Deputy Prime Minister Teo Chee Hean, at a Meet-the-People Session and obtained a letter which he took to

He was later able to apply for permanent

While waiting to become a PR, Mr Ng has been trying to fly back for special occasions -including his brother's NS enlistment in

"(My brother's) passing-out parade is in January, I hope to see him then," said Mr Ng.

As Mr Ng's father, who is now with a gas company, travels frequently, Madam Tambi says she misses her eldest son.

"I don't understand, he was a Singaporean from young. Even his father served NS.

"When it gets to his second week, I start to cry. As the eldest, I hope he takes care of the family. What happens when his family falls sick?"

Mr Ng is hoping he will get his PR status. Then maybe, a pink identity card again.

Get The New Paper for more stories.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The Delvis Ng story is quite common. The journalist reporting is also bad as the crucial points are not well written. This is what happens when people try to be too smart for their own good. Unlike his 2 younger siblings who were born here and got their citizenship, Delvis was born in Malaysia and his parents applied for Malaysian citizenship. His father is a Singaporean and therefore had 1 year to register him as a Singaporean which he obviously fail to do.

His NS liability is because he is a PR and all 2nd generation PR must do NS. His mother is 1st generation PR.

He had all these years to renounce his PR yet chose not to. What were the parents thinking all these years. The mother conveniently applied and got her Singaporean citizenship in 1991 but what about her son. He must have thought like many holding PR that when it is time to do NS, they can opt out and go back.

This is what happens when you have irresponsible or ignorant parents.

The Malaysians authorities can't do anything because the superhero travel docs were shared with his mother when he first came here. This was common practice in the past. They need it to start processing.
 
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evian

Alfrescian
Loyal
This is what happens when you have irresponsible or ignorant parents.

I can guarantee that there are many such parents of 2nd generation PRs living here and abroad who have absolutely no idea on NS liability for their children.
 

ZorrorroZ

Alfrescian
Loyal
I can guarantee that there are many such parents of 2nd generation PRs living here and abroad who have absolutely no idea on NS liability for their children.

Problems created by the govt itself by having no clear black and white for people to find out about immigration/NS issues.

One would think that after half a century of nation building, there'd be sufficient case studies and experience to build a solid FAQ database so that people can refer to and avoid these costly mistakes.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Until the 90s, the Govt actually exempted many of the 2nd generation PRs nearly all Malaysians from NS liability. The reason was for national security. It was common practice then for Malaysian PRs residing in Singapore to have their parents and females siblings to convert to Singapore citizenship while the males to retain their PR to avoid NS.

This trend is now seen among PRC and Indian families who take up PR for the whole family but their sons remain on dependency pass. When they become adults they then apply to remain under various others visas such as student or employment or move to other countries.
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
What about true blue local born males who have served their NS? Can they pick up foreign (Canada) citizenship without surrendering Singapore citizenship? Canada has no restrictions against dual citizenships.

Until the 90s, the Govt actually exempted many of the 2nd generation PRs nearly all Malaysians from NS liability. The reason was for national security. It was common practice then for Malaysian PRs residing in Singapore to have their parents and females siblings to convert to Singapore citizenship while the males to retain their PR to avoid NS.

This trend is now seen among PRC and Indian families who take up PR for the whole family but their sons remain on dependency pass. When they become adults they then apply to remain under various others visas such as student or employment or move to other countries.
 
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Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
What about true blue local born males who have served their NS? Can they pick up foreign (Canada) citizenship without surrendering Singapore citizenship? Canada has no restrictions against dual citizenships.

I believe that there is no legislation which prohibit that dual citizenship.
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think there isnt too. But I have not come across any Singaporean I know flashing a canadian passport. What I have known and seen are Singaporeans who have obtained PR overseas and still keep their pink IC and enter/exit with Singapore passport at overseas port of entry. I suppose if these S'poreans eventually pick up a Canadian pp, nobody would know, until they renew their S'pore pp and make the declaration that they hold a foreign pp. They would enter/exit Canada with their Canadian pp and enter/exit S'pore with S'pore pp.

Are you one of them?

I believe that there is no legislation which prohibit that dual citizenship.
 
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