Dual Citizenship / NS Obligations / HDB Flats and Migration

Most migrants when they reach their new home have similar stories - starting from scratch or well below their past grade in Singapore. School teachers who were previously Heads of Department start at the bottom rung, some mark exams papers for foreign students and slowly and eventually take their rightful position. Some become handyman and cleaners before they get the leg up. Takes about 2 years before things start to develop. You got to have the iron in you if not you spend time talking about migrating and doing nothing else.

Charlie99 said:

I believe that very very few professionals, especially medical doctors, such as [nayr69sg] will migrate, probably because a significant majority of them have worked very hard, made a very significant amount of money in a low income tax jurisdiction, probably accumulated significant monetary and financial assets, and therefore, the risk and opportunity cost may be considered too high.

I salute [nayr69sg] for his research, determination, perseverance, taking the risk, for his effort to migrate.
I believe that very few individuals in his position in life at that time, of migration, would give up a career as a medical doctor, to work in a factory in Edmonton.
He deserves his success and satisfaction at his current stage in life.
He made it happened.

Whereas for me, the opportunity cost was very much lower, because I was much younger, had less than $1,000 in my CPF account, and I had been working in Toronto for several years prior to applying for "landed immigrant" or permanent resident status.

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FYI

At the time that Doc was applying, the points system for OZ only for doctors was actually negative - minus 25 points. It was the only vocation that had a negative start. Also the examination after one year of studies to be recognised as a doctor to practice was very tough. Usually 2 or 3 candidates per state pass the exams. It was not the lack of money but the high barriers stopping doctors migrating for a better life. The usual route for medical doctors keen to migrate was to become a pharmaceutical rep for 2 years and then apply for entry under the new vocation.

So doctors who migrated had solid resolve and determination and not the money per se.

Charlie99 said:

I believe that very very few professionals, especially medical doctors, such as [nayr69sg] will migrate, probably because a significant majority of them have worked very hard, made a very significant amount of money in a low income tax jurisdiction, probably accumulated significant monetary and financial assets, and therefore, the risk and opportunity cost may be considered too high.

I salute [nayr69sg] for his research, determination, perseverance, taking the risk, for his effort to migrate.
I believe that very few individuals in his position in life at that time, of migration, would give up a career as a medical doctor, to work in a factory in Edmonton.
He deserves his success and satisfaction at his current stage in life.
He made it happened.

Whereas for me, the opportunity cost was very much lower, because I was much younger, had less than $1,000 in my CPF account, and I had been working in Toronto for several years prior to applying for "landed immigrant" or permanent resident status.

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scroobal said:

FYI

At the time that Doc was applying, the points system for OZ only for doctors was actually negative - minus 25 points. It was the only vocation that had a negative start. Also the examination after one year of studies to be recognised as a doctor to practice was very tough. Usually 2 or 3 candidates per state pass the exams. It was not the lack of money but the high barriers stopping doctors migrating for a better life. The usual route for medical doctors keen to migrate was to become a pharmaceutical rep for 2 years and then apply for entry under the new vocation.

So doctors who migrated had solid resolve and determination and not the money per se.

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Thank you.

I was more or less following [nayr69sg] efforts, at that time.

I applied for my Canadian PR in 2004. In 2005 I jumped on an opportunity to work in Melbourne. There was an ad in the Singapore Medical Association Newsletter for doctors from Singapore to work in "rural" Australia.

I flew over to interview for positions in Frankston, Mornington, Hastings and Geelong. 2 of the clinics offered me a job. I signed to one of them. The plan was to settle in Frankston on a work permit, work as a doctor, pay foreigner tax (which was very high), study for the AMC exams, then take the FRACGP exams thereafter. Only if I passed the FRACGP would I be considered possessing "equivalent" qualifications as a Aussie GP and only then would I be able to apply for PR.

Here was the thing. Oz supposedly offered a job but no PR. Going there could mean working for 3 years, failing all the exams and then being told to go back to Singapore. Wasted time and energy. We worked out that salary wise I would be earning less than what I got in Singapore after Aussie taxes. It was a risk. But I tried for it since it was right there and then. Also my parents were more in favor due to the relative proximity of Oz compared to Canada.

Unfortunately, during that time there was a high profile case about Dr Patel aka "Dr Death" an Indian Surgeon who fled the USA to work in Australia and was operating on patient indiscriminately. The Victoria State Medical Board put all temporary medical licence applications on hold. The recruitment company told me they had no idea when this would be resolved. We waited for a year then my wife had to decide what she wanted to do. She signed up for NIE to become a teacher and we closed the door on Oz.

So it is not about whether you have money or not. In fact being a doctor makes it more difficult to migrate! People do not understand this. Especially those who talk big about migrating but never actually do it.

I tried looking into the pharma rep plan and sent fake resumes to pharma companies with my qualification and 2 years experience as pharma rep for Merck Singapore, Pfizer Singapore. All I got were rejection letters saying that I had no North American experience. So I decided against doing that.

I also wrote to NYP nursing to find out if I could get waivers for certain courses in the Nursing program by virtue of having an MBBS. They replied no. And it was a full time course. So that got shelved as well.

To be honest, I never planned to become a doctor again when I left for Canada. It was my excuse to finally quit the bloody medical field. I would tell people that it was Canada that would not let me practice as an excuse so that I would never have to practice medicine again. I hate being a doctor. I took the exams to satisfy relatives and family and myself. I wanted to say look I tried.....I took the exams, did the necessary but they would not take me....what can I do right? And then I could do other things with my life and explore more opportunities.

We left in 2010. By 2013 I was a doctor again. At that stage I was just starting on a new career in oil and gas. Looking back I can say I made the "right choice" to redo residency. I also got immensely lucky to have been offered a residency position given that I didn't do the necessary observorships and have the relevant local Canadian doctor letters of reference. I still don't know how that happened.

We are comfortable financially enough that my wife no longer has to work. It is good for the family.

On bad days at work though I ask myself sometimes .....what could have been? Could I have been more successful in another field? What else would have opened up for me?

To be frank, deep down I am disappointed in myself for selling out to the "Singapore pragmatism". Getting a stable well paying job for the family's sake. I really wanted to prove to everyone that I did NOT have to fall back on my medical degree to make it in Canada. And for the 2 years 3 months we actually did ok. My wife ran a dayhome, we also had 2 foreign students in our homestay, and I worked in manufacturing and then later admin. Nothing to shout about, but we had a good lifestyle already. Skiing in winter. Trips to the Rockies in summer. Hiking etc.

I would be more proud of myself had I not become a doctor again and succeeded in another field working from scratch and working my way up.

Well you can never tell what the future brings, but you can make choices now. Every single day of your life. Mind you with every choice there are payoffs and prices to pay as well. The important thing is to give yourself choices and options to choose from.

I often heard Singaporeans say "I have no choice!" "No choice have to (do this and that, or cannot do this and that"

My reply is always, we all have a choice. We are free to choose what we want to do. It is only the price of that choice that we may not be willing to pay.

Just doing some reflection. I was always worried about the money. Kept buying TOTO. Hoping to win the first prize. I came close once. 5 numbers. The final number was 15 my number was 5. Was a good winning in 4 figures but sigh not enough to migrate lah.

Seriously when you reach $100k in savings also not enough. Got family. Have to pay for plane tickets. Rent. Shipping costs. How many years can the SGD$100k last?

Truthfully, I was always in a state of paralysis by analysis. I still remember Charlie99 encouraging me and telling me to take action and not be stuck in my worries. But I kept worrying, kept trying to save more and more. It never ends.

When we applied for our Canadian PRs I remember distinctly that we have as a household <$15k in savings. Why? Because my wife's best friend told her she and her fiance were going to buy a condo in the Orchard area. It was 2004. SARS had just hit not too long. The fiance worked as a banker. My wife said she was told it was a good time to buy. I checked our bank account and said $15k enough for downpayment for condo in Orchard? Dream on. I was then a medical officer surgical trainee working in SGH. My salary was $4000+ a month before CPF deductions. So much for being a doctor eh?

In the later years, even after we got our PRs and made our landing, there was still paralysis by analysis. Parents were against us going, my wife was stressed with work and just wanted not to have to think about it. After 2009 I gave up all hope and resigned myself to working in the Polyclinic for the rest of my life, the Canada dream gone up in smoke. I also fell into depression.

It was only when my wife was so darn fed up with her life as a school teacher that she one day said to me "the kids and I are going to Canada next June with or without you" That's when things started moving. I am great at getting things done. Getting the results. But not so good at making "rash decisions".

So I really have to thank my wife in the end. Without her we would not be here in Canada today.

It does show that it requires a lot of mental strength.

I remember in the early days of the forum. There were folks talking about migration but never even bothered to go down to the High Commission, pay $12 to collect the form. Look at the case of Charlie, poor bugger, took overnight Greyhound express to Chicago to complete the formalities.

scroobal said:

It does show that it requires a lot of mental strength.

I remember in the early days of the forum. There were folks talking about migration but never even bothered to go down to the High Commission, pay $12 to collect the form. Look at the case of Charlie, poor bugger, took overnight Greyhound express to Chicago to complete the formalities.

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Wow, you remember my "mid night Greyhound (express) to freedom"

In the early 1980's, it was more challenging to emigrate to Canada, than the last several years, simply because, the Canadian government or whatever the rules were, they do not allow me to apply from within Canada. They would not send me the forms. So, I had to take a day off, to take the Greyhound bus from Toronto to Detroit (try to sleep for a few hours, arrive around 0700 hours, go to the washroom to shave and freshen up, try to straighten my suit), to pick up the forms, complete the forms with the necessary attachments, make another trip to Detroit to submit the completed forms, make another trip to attend the interview (fortunately, it was a very good discussion because the interviewer said that since I have been working in Toronto for about 4 years, I have adapted to life in Toronto), make another trip to pick up Form IMM 1000 (landed immigrant status).

Life at work in the first year was not interesting, as they asked me to do all sorts of clerical and "office boy" duties, including "running around the City to deliver envelopes and documents" (courier was not as common in those days).

At this stage in life, I am not as financially successful as many of my schoolmates in Singapore.
But I believe that I can pass the SAF IPPT and qualify for the Gold medal for my age group.

Edited re: [ to do all sorts of clerical ] and [ the completed forms ]

Yours, Docs and couple of others are stories that I share with others who struggle with a decision. I remember I was once asked to meet the wife of a chap to "convince" her. They had a special needs child and the husband was keen to go to OZ for the sake of the kid. The lady was the niece of a past Singapore President and she felt firmly entrenched in Singapore. Shared these stories. They subsequently moved.

Charlie99 said:

Wow, you remember my "mid night Greyhound (express) to freedom"

In the early 1980's, it was more challenging to emigrate to Canada, than the last several years, simply because, the Canadian government or whatever the rules were, they do not allow me to apply from within Canada. They would not send me the forms. So, I had to take a day off, to take the Greyhound bus from Toronto to Detroit (try to sleep for a few hours, arrive around 0700 hours, go to the washroom to shave and freshen up, try to straighten my suit), to pick up the forms, complete the forms with the necessary attachments, make another trip to Detroit to submit the competed forms, make another trip to attend the interview (fortunately, it was a very good discussion because the interviewer said that since I have been working in Toronto for about 4 years, I have adapted to life in Toronto), make another trip to pick up Form IMM 1000 (landed immigrant status).

Life at work in the first year was not interesting, as they asked me to all sorts of clerical and "office boy" duties, including "running around the City to deliver envelopes and documents" (courier was not as common in those days).

At this stage in life, I am not as financially successful as many of my schoolmates in Singapore.
But I believe that I can pass the SAF IPPT and qualify for the Gold medal for my age group.

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scroobal said:

Yours, Docs and couple of others are stories that I share with others who struggle with a decision. I remember I was once asked to meet the wife of a chap to "convince" her. They had a special needs child and the husband was keen to go to OZ for the sake of the kid. The lady was the niece of a past Singapore President and she felt firmly entrenched in Singapore. Shared these stories. They subsequently moved.

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I am flattered.
Compared to "Doc", I am at level one whereas he is at level ten, and he is a "solid chap"

I came with two suit cases (with three suits, and a dozen shirts which my eldest sister sewn for me, two pairs of shoes) and $1,500.

I hope that our children will be grateful and content, and have a more balanced life than if they were born in Singapore.

Charlie99 said:

I am flattered.
Compared to "Doc", I am at level one whereas he is at level ten, and he is a "solid chap"

I came with two suit cases (with three suits, and a dozen shirts which my eldest sister sewn for me, two pairs of shoes) and $1,500.

I hope that our children will be grateful and content, and have a more balanced life than if they were born in Singapore.

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Charlie99 you were one of my inspirations to migrate. I remember your story as well. So many of you gave very good advice.

Honestly I think I didn't really do much. My wife took the plunge and I just basically put my head down and worked hard and took whatever opportunities came our way. We were very lucky. God was watching over us.

I do remember you sharing these years ago as well as your family background. The kids are the biggest beneficiaries even if they do not fully comprehend the risks, and the difficulties involved. I bet you have no idea what would come of you when you left Singapore except that you knew that you have to succeed in the new World.

As a kid, I remember my neighbour had a younger brother called George who did not do well academically but spoke and dressed well. In those days, even if you did not do well in school you spoke and wrote well. This guy left NZ and overstayed as an illegal immigrant. My neighbour said he got a pushcart and sold hot dogs and stuff in public parks. Eventually was told that after a number of years he took up NZ offer of amnesty. I understand that they used to have this in the past periodically.

In those years, people took up nursing (men as well as women) and beauty courses not exactly for the love of it but to seek a new future. And many remained in the UK, OZ and NZ.

So it tells you there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Charlie99 said:

I am flattered.
Compared to "Doc", I am at level one whereas he is at level ten, and he is a "solid chap"

I came with two suit cases (with three suits, and a dozen shirts which my eldest sister sewn for me, two pairs of shoes) and $1,500.

I hope that our children will be grateful and content, and have a more balanced life than if they were born in Singapore.

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For years, Charlie was the lone voice from Canada.

Actually, many in the forum was waiting for an update on your every move. It went for a few year. I do clearly remember you asking for advice about Geelong.

When you switched your focus to Canada, I do recall a number of those who applied to go to Canada and reading this forum joined in as well. I even remember couple of families joined in and made an exploratory trips to Canada.

ps. occasionally someone would seek medical advice as well.

nayr69sg said:

Charlie99 you were one of my inspirations to migrate. I remember your story as well. So many of you gave very good advice.

Honestly I think I didn't really do much. My wife took the plunge and I just basically put my head down and worked hard and took whatever opportunities came our way. We were very lucky. God was watching over us.

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Our daughter at the St. Joseph's College School, 161st Graduation, on June 29, 2016.

Subject Awards: She won the Religious Education (The World of Fashion) subject award, but missed out of the Canadian and World Issues: A Geographic Analysis, which she won in Grade 11.

She won the Sister Frances Hayes, CSJ, Award (which includes a cheque in the amount of $250) - This award is presented to the student who, during her time at St. Jospeh's College, has displayed an understanding of the mission of the Sisters of St. Joseph by demonstrating care for the poor and marginalized.

Ontario Catholic School Graduate Expectations Award - Team Player. She won this award as "A collaborative contributor who finds meaning, dignity and vocation in work which respects the rights of all and contributes to the common good."

Although she is trilingual (English, French and Ukrainian), I regret that I did not have the time to send her to Mandarin School when she was in kindergarten. Chinese Schools are in Markham and Richmond Hill. We do not have a motor vehicle, and on Saturday mornings, she attended Ukrainian School. It would have put too much pressure on her to attend Chinese School on Saturday or Sunday afternoons.

This summer, she is spending five weeks at Trois Rivieres, Quebec re: French Immersion (sponsored by the federal govt. but we just have to pay for the return train fare) at French School, and organized social and recreational activities on the weekends.

University Scholarship
Our daughter was awarded the Ryerson University's Terence Grier Entrance Scholarship, which honours the achievements of Ryerson’s President, from 1988-1995, in particular his leadership through a period of profound change at Ryerson, culminating in the acquisition of university status at the institution.
Value: One scholarship valued at full tuition for first-year only (not renewable).
http://www.ryerson.ca/content/dam/currentstudents/awards/pdfs/schol_ent_terence_grier_app.pdf

Charlie99 said:

Our daughter at the St. Joseph's College School, 161st Graduation, on June 29, 2016.

Subject Awards: She won the Religious Education (The World of Fashion) subject award, but missed out of the Canadian and World Issues: A Geographic Analysis, which she won in Grade 11.

She won the Sister Frances Hayes, CSJ, Award (which includes a cheque in the amount of $250) - This award is presented to the student who, during her time at St. Jospeh's College, has displayed an understanding of the mission of the Sisters of St. Joseph by demonstrating care for the poor and marginalized.

Ontario Catholic School Graduate Expectations Award - Team Player. She won this award as "A collaborative contributor who finds meaning, dignity and vocation in work which respects the rights of all and contributes to the common good."

Although she is trilingual (English, French and Ukrainian), I regret that I did not have the time to send her to Mandarin School when she was in kindergarten. Chinese Schools are in Markham and Richmond Hill. We do not have a motor vehicle, and on Saturday mornings, she attended Ukrainian School. It would have put too much pressure on her to attend Chinese School on Saturday or Sunday afternoons.

This summer, she is spending five weeks at Trois Rivieres, Quebec re: French Immersion (sponsored by the federal govt. but we just have to pay for the return train fare) at French School, and organized social and recreational activities on the weekends.

University Scholarship
Our daughter was awarded the Ryerson University's Terence Grier Entrance Scholarship, which honours the achievements of Ryerson’s President, from 1988-1995, in particular his leadership through a period of profound change at Ryerson, culminating in the acquisition of university status at the institution.
Value: One scholarship valued at full tuition for first-year only (not renewable).
http://www.ryerson.ca/content/dam/currentstudents/awards/pdfs/schol_ent_terence_grier_app.pdf

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You have a scholarly daughter. Congrats on her achievement.
If she is in sinkapore, she could have earned one of those prestigious scholarship that would set her up for life.

Congratulations Charlie99. You must be very proud of your daughter! Well done!

Well done Charlie. I also remembered that you wanted your kids to acquire EU citizenship somewhere down the line and thus a mini UN. You are well on your way.

Charlie99 said:

Our daughter at the St. Joseph's College School, 161st Graduation, on June 29, 2016.

Subject Awards: She won the Religious Education (The World of Fashion) subject award, but missed out of the Canadian and World Issues: A Geographic Analysis, which she won in Grade 11.

She won the Sister Frances Hayes, CSJ, Award (which includes a cheque in the amount of $250) - This award is presented to the student who, during her time at St. Jospeh's College, has displayed an understanding of the mission of the Sisters of St. Joseph by demonstrating care for the poor and marginalized.

Ontario Catholic School Graduate Expectations Award - Team Player. She won this award as "A collaborative contributor who finds meaning, dignity and vocation in work which respects the rights of all and contributes to the common good."

Although she is trilingual (English, French and Ukrainian), I regret that I did not have the time to send her to Mandarin School when she was in kindergarten. Chinese Schools are in Markham and Richmond Hill. We do not have a motor vehicle, and on Saturday mornings, she attended Ukrainian School. It would have put too much pressure on her to attend Chinese School on Saturday or Sunday afternoons.

This summer, she is spending five weeks at Trois Rivieres, Quebec re: French Immersion (sponsored by the federal govt. but we just have to pay for the return train fare) at French School, and organized social and recreational activities on the weekends.

University Scholarship
Our daughter was awarded the Ryerson University's Terence Grier Entrance Scholarship, which honours the achievements of Ryerson’s President, from 1988-1995, in particular his leadership through a period of profound change at Ryerson, culminating in the acquisition of university status at the institution.
Value: One scholarship valued at full tuition for first-year only (not renewable).
http://www.ryerson.ca/content/dam/currentstudents/awards/pdfs/schol_ent_terence_grier_app.pdf

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winnipegjets said:

You have a scholarly daughter. Congrats on her achievement.
If she is in sinkapore, she could have earned one of those prestigious scholarship that would set her up for life.

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Thank you.
She is not that scholarly, and I did not expect her to receive one of those full tuition scholarship,
although with her average, she was supposed to receive the R.U. Entrance Scholarship of $2,000 per year.
If she is in Singapore, she is unlikely to receive any of those "prestigious" government scholarships, which I believe in Singapore require 4 A's or 6 A's.
Although during my time, 3 A's plus one B for the "A" levels (at that time, we did only 4 subjects), plus an A or B for the General Paper plus good ECA will very likely secure an Overseas Merit Scholarship, or equivalent.

nayr69sg said:

Congratulations Charlie99. You must be very proud of your daughter! Well done!

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Thank you, Doc.