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Serious PAP’s Perversion of HDB and the Death of the S’pore Middle Class

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
For the purposes of this article, I want to broadly defined the housing types into HDB - Lower Income. Private condos and apartments – Middle Income. Landed property – Higher income.


We have all been fed the company line. Singapore is a great economic success. This is all due to the Great Lee Kuan Yew and his vision. He transformed Singapore from a mosquito infested swamp and fishing village into the great metropolis that we see today. HDB is pointed out as the jewel in this crown, how the population was moved from ghettos into the modern highrise flats that they own. Nothing could be further from the truth.


The original idea for the HDB was not a PAP nor Lee Kuan Yew idea. It was started by the British Colonial administration as SIT (Singapore Improvement Trust) in 1927. The idea of SIT was to produce affordable housing for low income people. The performance of SIT up till the 1950s was abysmal. A British govt white paper in 1947 noted that Singapore had one of the worse slums in the civilized world, a disgrace to a civilized community. Upon Independence, the HDB was created to take over the role of SIT. Its mandate was the same. Under Lim Kim San, the HDB far exceeded what the SIT had accomplished. Namely, to provide govt. affordable low cost housing to low income and poor people. This is the reason that all original HDB flats under the first 5 year programme were only rental units. In 1964, HDB allowed residents to “purchase” their flats under a 99 year lease. The intended purpose was nation building and to give lower income Singaporeans more of a stake in their new country. Because of this, all flats were priced at cost (pioneer Singaporeans will remember buying flats for under $20,000 and even later for less then $100,000 up into the 1970s). All flats had to be sold back to the HDB when the flat dwellers move on to bigger and better things. This killed off speculation and made the flats affordable.


So far so good. The narrative is fantastic and shows that many of the lower income housing needs were indeed met by the HDB. Even today, the PAP still insists that it is producing subsidized and affordable housing for its people. Now, we have the ask the one question that the PAP and Lee Kuan Yew has avoided for the last 50 years. That is:


“If Singapore is such an economic success story, then why are 82% of its people, tenants living in govt
made, subsidized and affordable low income basic housing?”



Why do Singaporeans not stop to look around and ask themselves this question? If they are doing so well, why do they not ask themselves why then, do they still need to live in a govt subsidized rental flat? This is not the sign of a successful economy if 82% of the people have to rely on govt subsidized housing for a roof over their heads. The goal of all HDB flat dwellers back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s was to move up the next class in the social ladder into the middle class as evidenced by purchasing private flats and condos. And indeed many of them did so. Also, a smaller number of HDB flat dwellers made it all the way to the upper class by purchasing landed properties. We all know someone who was living in a HDB flat and ended up owning a bungalow. But statistically speaking, these sort of people are in the minority as 82% of the population continue to rent HDB flats. No country has a middle class that resides in govt build and own public subsidized housing. Which is to way, we don’t have a middle class at all.

How did this come about? There are many reasons. One of which is the land monopoly that the PAP has. If they take all the land and keep it for themselves, and only sell crumbs to the private condo developers, there is only so many condos that they can build and subsequently everything has to be priced higher. Imagine if the PAP decided that the PAP should only build housing estates for the 30% or so people that are truly lower income and release the rest of the land to condo developers on a 99 year lease or freehold. There would be many more private condos build for Singaporeans, the price per unit will be much lower. We might see HDB flats priced at affordable price ranges of under $250,000. Private condos might be as low as $500 psf, due to the much higher numbers available for sale.


The other reasons are of course, HDB is a money generator for the PAP. The PAP makes billions $ keeping the population forcibly in govt rental housing, and pretending they are subsidized and affordable. People with good household income must ask themselves why they are still in a HDB flat, and not in a private property like a condo. Granted that some HDB flat dwellers secretly own private condos and landed properties, but again, they are in a minority. The citizens and the opposition need to wake up and ask the fundamental question. Why are most of the population still living in govt rental subsidized housing if the PAP has been so successful as a govt?

Copyright PAPsmearer
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
I would say that if you are not living in a freehold property condo or landed whatever then you are still on rental government land and would not be in the higher bracket.

Do not delude yourself with landed or condo property on 99 year lease as anything better than HDB. It is the same.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
I would say that if you are not living in a freehold property condo or landed whatever then you are still on rental government land and would not be in the higher bracket.

Do not delude yourself with landed or condo property on 99 year lease as anything better than HDB. It is the same.

Its not the same. educate yourself on this.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Its not the same. educate yourself on this.

Both are 99 year leases lah. Lease. When you have the word lease.....

There are still some 999 year leases that one is better lah.

You tell people from North America you buy a property but it is a 99 year lease they will look at you funny. Tell them you paid millions for that and they will say you are crazy. But in Singapore people buy "private" 99 year property think they more big shot and better income class. Uniquely Singapore.

Why you think Chinese would rather pay millions for the Vancouver properties? All freehold.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Great write-up.

Your answer in your last paragraph is right. The money is indeed good, too good. They have tasted it and cannot let go. The cost of a building a HDB flat everyone knows does not even come close to the price that it is sold. The price covers the entire infrastructure of the housing estate including, roads, traffic lights, landscaping, bus interchanges, markets, carparks etc. Typically govts around the world pays for these infrastructure. Only private developers make the buyers pay for the estate infrastructure which is typically kept very small.

For show, the Govt provides annual grant to Ministry of National Development for housing to convince Singaporeans that HDB flats are indeed subsidised. To keep the charade going, HDB always reports an annual deficit.

Despite repeated request from Chiam See Tong, the Govt in parliament has refused to provide the breakdown of cost of building a flat. Chiam even went as far as to calculate cost of HDB flat from sand to windows with the help of contractors but Govt refused to engage him or even to say of the cost given is right or wrong. If the PAP has nothing to fear, why the lack of transparency?

In the late 80s, KFC revealed that it paid $44K per month to HDB for lease of the ground floor unit at the block close to Bukit Merah Interchange. Thats when the penny dropped that HDB was racking in money with commercial rates. The govt however refused to reveal the rental charged for NTUC Fairprice supermarket on the next block to KFC and much much bigger. NTUC Fairprice supermarkets that are ubiquitous across HDB heartland was heavily subsidised by the Govt thru HDB. That is common knowledge. When you net it out, don't be surprised that the govt grants helps to pay for the shortfall difference for NTUC Fair Price subsidised rent.

Then you having this perennial song and dance where NTUC gives discounts, donates milk powder for the needy etc. All in essence from tax payers.




For the purposes of this article, I want to broadly defined the housing types into HDB - Lower Income. Private condos and apartments – Middle Income. Landed property – Higher income.
..................

The other reasons are of course, HDB is a money generator for the PAP. The PAP makes billions $ keeping the population forcibly in govt rental housing, and pretending they are subsidized and affordable. People with good household income must ask themselves why they are still in a HDB flat, and not in a private property like a condo. Granted that some HDB flat dwellers secretly own private condos and landed properties, but again, they are in a minority. The citizens and the opposition need to wake up and ask the fundamental question. Why are most of the population still living in govt rental subsidized housing if the PAP has been so successful as a govt?

Copyright PAPsmearer
 

Boliao

Alfrescian
Loyal
First of all, condo dwellers are not middle class. Far from it as most condo today are priced higher than landed properties in PSF. Any condo that match their equivalent in land size would be typically priced higher. The interesting thing is that this phenomenal is applicable to both freehold and leasehold properties.

Why is this so? Because Singaporeans are idiots who takes whatever that has been shoved to them. We deserve it.
 

Narong Wongwan

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I would say that if you are not living in a freehold property condo or landed whatever then you are still on rental government land and would not be in the higher bracket.

Do not delude yourself with landed or condo property on 99 year lease as anything better than HDB. It is the same.

999 or 'freehold' so what?
Pap got Land Acquisition Act.
Where they confiscated your land and pay you 1973 prices
 

EnBloc

Alfrescian
Loyal
Good argument by TS. However, as an accidental property investor who benefited from windfall from first HDB direct purchase and one private enbloc, I am delighted with government housing policies.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Yeah lor. I didn't want to say lah. Cos like that very sad for even those people with freehold land. But the lease is an eventuality. At least whether Lena land acquisition is a possibility or probability only.

But Singapore good thing is they have the 82% HDB dwellers using cheap mortgage loans using CPF monies to prop up the property market.

So unless CPF goes bankrupt property market should be relatively stable for another 50 years?

Talk to bankers and see what they think about giving mortgages to 99 year lease properties.
 

mahjongking

Alfrescian
Loyal
Good argument by TS. However, as an accidental property investor who benefited from windfall from first HDB direct purchase and one private enbloc, I am delighted with government housing policies.


yes most of the old timers did benefitted with a cheap roof over our heads, but the pap got wise to it, look at what our children must pay for a roof over their heads…..
and most parents will have no choice but to help their kids buy a home with their coffin money….

guys, good job to expose them,
spore and its land belongs to the citizens, why must we compete with foreigners (who jack up the prices)?

free market my lam-pa!!
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Both are 99 year leases lah. Lease. When you have the word lease.....

There are still some 999 year leases that one is better lah.

You tell people from North America you buy a property but it is a 99 year lease they will look at you funny. Tell them you paid millions for that and they will say you are crazy. But in Singapore people buy "private" 99 year property think they more big shot and better income class. Uniquely Singapore.

Why you think Chinese would rather pay millions for the Vancouver properties? All freehold.

Sigh, I ask you to go and educate yourself, why are you so fucking lazy and ignorant? Now I am forced to educate you because you are fucking up everyone's chi in this forum with your misinformation.

HDB - 99 year "lease" is not the same as a 99 yr leasehold property. The HDB's 99 year lease is actually a 99 year pre-paid rent. The HDB flat dweller has in effect prepaid his rent in advance for 99 years to the HDB. He is the tenant, HDB is the landlord. He does not own the flat, nor own the 4 walls he dwells within, nor own the floor he sleeps on. Just like you lease a BMW car for 5 years. Do you own the car? No, you have to give it back at the end of the 5 year lease. But can you "sell" the car? Sure, you can, but the lease's remaining years is transferred to the new "owner". Sama Sama.

99 year Leasehold properties - This means that you own the condo apt unit yourself. You own the walls and everything within it in your 99 year leasehold condo. You do not need permission from anyone to sell your unit, unlike HDB flat sellers who must seek HDB approval before "selling" their flat. But you do not own the land that lies under the condo building. At the end of the 99 years, the building either reverts to the land owner or is demolished and all encumbrances removed from the land and returned to the land owner, depending on how the lease is written up. Lets say you bought a brand new 99 year lease condo. After 35 years, a developer comes along and offers to buy a all the units in your building and build a new and higher condo complex on it, with the balance of the 64 years lease remaining. You can, along with the other owners, agree to sell to him without seeking approval from anyone, because you and the other owners own the building, all the units and common areas etc.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
yes most of the old timers did benefitted with a cheap roof over our heads, but the pap got wise to it, look at what our children must pay for a roof over their heads…..
and most parents will have no choice but to help their kids buy a home with their coffin money….

guys, good job to expose them,
spore and its land belongs to the citizens, why must we compete with foreigners (who jack up the prices)?

free market my lam-pa!!

The old timers benefited because the rule was different back then. It has nothing to do with free market whatsoever. When an entity controls 80% of the land in singapore, there is no such thing as free market. The old timers bought when the HDB sold at cost. Then they also bought when the rule said you had to sell the flat back to the HDB at what you paid for it, hence, no benefit to anyone. But by changing the rules, and allowing the flat to be sold to anyone, plus the allowing of the use of CPF rapidly resulted in the price increases.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Yeah lor. I didn't want to say lah. Cos like that very sad for even those people with freehold land. But the lease is an eventuality. At least whether Lena land acquisition is a possibility or probability only.

But Singapore good thing is they have the 82% HDB dwellers using cheap mortgage loans using CPF monies to prop up the property market.

So unless CPF goes bankrupt property market should be relatively stable for another 50 years?

Talk to bankers and see what they think about giving mortgages to 99 year lease properties.

Talk simi lancheow wei? Stable for 50 years? I defy you to find a bank to give you a conventional mortgage on a flat that is older then 25 years. You will not find one. The value of a HDB flat is on a parabolic curve. The value increases until the age of the flat reaches 25 years or when lenders will not provide any mortgage for a flat of that age, after which the value will decline.

eg. You bought a flat for $300K
20 years later, its worth $750K
You do not sell but wait another 5 years to sell. But guess what? Despite strong interest from buyers to purchase your 25 year old flat, the have problems getting a mortgage from a bank for something this old.
So, they have to borrow from relatives or pay cash for the flat. Who has $750K cash lying around? The value will therefore decline and you will not get $750K for it.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
First of all, condo dwellers are not middle class. Far from it as most condo today are priced higher than landed properties in PSF. Any condo that match their equivalent in land size would be typically priced higher. The interesting thing is that this phenomenal is applicable to both freehold and leasehold properties.

Why is this so? Because Singaporeans are idiots who takes whatever that has been shoved to them. We deserve it.

In the 70s and even 80s, condos were middle class. People regularly went from a HDB flat to a condo. But because the PAP keeps gobbling up land for its HDB estates, highways, MRT lines, etc. the supply left for condo developers is constricted and hence they have to bid up the auction price and pass the cost on to their buyers.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Great write-up.

Your answer in your last paragraph is right. The money is indeed good, too good. They have tasted it and cannot let go. The cost of a building a HDB flat everyone knows does not even come close to the price that it is sold. The price covers the entire infrastructure of the housing estate including, roads, traffic lights, landscaping, bus interchanges, markets, carparks etc. Typically govts around the world pays for these infrastructure. Only private developers make the buyers pay for the estate infrastructure which is typically kept very small.

.

When you are only a tenant, you should not be made to pay for all this infrastructure improvements. Just like you should not pay property tax and conservancy fees.
 

JohnTan

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Why are most of the population still living in govt rental subsidized housing if the PAP has been so successful as a govt?

HDB public housing is of pretty high quality for public housing. Try living in HK's public housing.

Most sinkies, including myself, profited handsomely from our HDB. Vast majority of sinkies made a huge paper profit once the MPO period is fulfilled. There are enough news of sinkies who sold off their BTO flats in Queenstown, Bishan or Toa Payoh, Tanjong Pagar to fetch prices above $600k, while paying far less for it when they bought 5 years ago.

Singapore is not a big country with lots of land. If you want to fulfill some itch of having a piece of paper stating that you own the land for life, go move to places like Malaysia or Australia. Just go if you think Singapore is such a pathetic place to stay in. You are not forced to stay here. Quit whining like a little girl already.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
this just means sinkies have to adjust their expectations to reality now,cheapness and affordability and space is one luxury they no longer have compared to the 1970s and 80s where ironically sinkies may be fiscally poorer back then but materially much richer and quality of living possibly much higher.

government has to assist in the adjustment and curbing of sinkie's mindsets and expectations,2 room and 3 room flats should be ideal for the 30 percent working class population while 4 room and 5 room flats should be reserved for the 30 percent middle class,while condos and landed properties should only be afforded by the top 20 percent elite sinkies and expats.while the bottom 20 percent poor sinkies should live in cages and coops stacked upon each other on a dirty mattress with 30 years of sweat stains on it and the only thing driving the air circulation in it is a rusty 20 year old KOK fan.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
the problem with ur article?50 years ago back in 1965 there was no such thing as poor,low class,middle class and upper class,the whole of singapore was just one big fuckeroo jungle fishing village sampan,with the except of a few british colonial overlords and a tiny elite chinese merchant class and traders and tycoons,the rest of singapore population was just one backwoods hillybilly kampong dwelling roaches swinging from the tree yodelling tarzan and soccer playing barbarians shitting in the same bucket as 50 people shithole.the class divide only started appearing in the late 80s and 90s when singapore's gdp per cap broke 20,000 and wealth gaps became more apparent.

whatever it is,in most countries public government run housing are meant to be public programmes to serve the poor and low income families in the country,for no reason should it be used as a profit making organisation and neither should 80 percent of the population be living in them,i have no idea why SIngapore is so proud of it......have they been outside in the real world?people dont living in utilitarian government housing projects ugly looking cookie cutter monstrositys,those are only found in slums and ghettos,real people live in houses or apartment buildings or condos or skyscrapers in cities.
 
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nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Sigh, I ask you to go and educate yourself, why are you so fucking lazy and ignorant? Now I am forced to educate you because you are fucking up everyone's chi in this forum with your misinformation.

Please refrain from using uncouth rude language. There is no need to in a civil debate. It is not me who is uneducated. It is just that your argument is weak.

HDB - 99 year "lease" is not the same as a 99 yr leasehold property. The HDB's 99 year lease is actually a 99 year pre-paid rent. The HDB flat dweller has in effect prepaid his rent in advance for 99 years to the HDB. He is the tenant, HDB is the landlord. He does not own the flat, nor own the 4 walls he dwells within, nor own the floor he sleeps on. Just like you lease a BMW car for 5 years. Do you own the car? No, you have to give it back at the end of the 5 year lease. But can you "sell" the car? Sure, you can, but the lease's remaining years is transferred to the new "owner". Sama Sama.

99 year Leasehold properties - This means that you own the condo apt unit yourself. You own the walls and everything within it in your 99 year leasehold condo. You do not need permission from anyone to sell your unit, unlike HDB flat sellers who must seek HDB approval before "selling" their flat. But you do not own the land that lies under the condo building. At the end of the 99 years, the building either reverts to the land owner or is demolished and all encumbrances removed from the land and returned to the land owner, depending on how the lease is written up. Lets say you bought a brand new 99 year lease condo. After 35 years, a developer comes along and offers to buy a all the units in your building and build a new and higher condo complex on it, with the balance of the 64 years lease remaining. You can, along with the other owners, agree to sell to him without seeking approval from anyone, because you and the other owners own the building, all the units and common areas etc.

Legally 99-year lease is 99-year lease whether it is HDB or private condo. What part of this do you not understand? As you said, at the end of the 99 year lease for the condo, the land for the condo reverts to the land owner....that is the Singapore government. Same with HDB.

What has "needing permission to sell" got to do with anything about the fact that it is still 99-year lease? It is still a 99-year lease on the land.

And if you are trying to associate restrictions on selling properties as a "low class" asset, then what about landed property ie bungalows, semi-detached, terrace etc. You are not allowed to sell to foreigners. Frankly I DO NOT think the restrictions and rules to sell have anything to do with your article.

The 99-year lease is the crux of the debate.

You are trying very hard (I wonder why) to justify to yourself that buying a private condo which has a 99-year lease for a vastly higher price, is a "better" investment than a HDB 99-year lease unit.

Your description of a possibility of an en-bloc situation where "a developer comes along and offers to buy a all the units in your building and build a new and higher condo complex on it, with the balance of the 64 years lease remaining." is still just a possibility and not an eventuality. You are assuming that they can build higher. And that the property market will sustain such a business proposal. Again, what has that got to do with the fact that if the developer decided to offer a low price with 35 years remaining and the owners of such 99-year lease condo units get cold feet and take whatever they can get rather than end up with nothing?

Don't mix up legal eventualities with business possibilities.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Talk simi lancheow wei? Stable for 50 years? I defy you to find a bank to give you a conventional mortgage on a flat that is older then 25 years. You will not find one. The value of a HDB flat is on a parabolic curve. The value increases until the age of the flat reaches 25 years or when lenders will not provide any mortgage for a flat of that age, after which the value will decline.

eg. You bought a flat for $300K
20 years later, its worth $750K
You do not sell but wait another 5 years to sell. But guess what? Despite strong interest from buyers to purchase your 25 year old flat, the have problems getting a mortgage from a bank for something this old.
So, they have to borrow from relatives or pay cash for the flat. Who has $750K cash lying around? The value will therefore decline and you will not get $750K for it.

HDB market is mostly financed by CPF. CPF is the bank. You are assuming that majority of HDB dwellers actually ever sell their flats. They don't. They stay there all their lives. This is the stability I am talking about.

Also if you really really need to sell the HDB unit, you can sell back to HDB.

Now people spending $1 million to buy a HDB flat in Toa Payoh, that one defies good business sense.

And seriously, you should go talk to banks and ask what their opinion is on giving mortgages for older year old 99-year lease condos. You go educate yourself on that because I have already asked that question, and generally the banks are not keen either. Anything with less than 60 years remaining on the lease ie >39 years old they would not be keen.

And if you are trying to buy a 25 year old condo and want an amortization period longer than 15 years they would also not be keen.
 
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