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Serious Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

Wunderfool

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
China lodges protest with Singapore after military vehicles seized by Hong Kong customs

China’s foreign ministry has lodged a protest with Singapore after nine Singaporean military vehicles were seized by Hong Kong customs en route from Taiwan last week.

Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang revealed the news at a regular press briefing on Monday.

“We call on Singapore to act in accordance with the laws of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region in handling the matter,” Geng said. “We oppose any nations that have diplomatic ties with China to have contacts with Taiwan, including military relations,” he said, adding: “We call on Singapore to abide by the one China principle.”

Geng’s remarks came as the nationalist Global Times tabloid denounced Singapore’s “hypocrisy” over its military RELATIONSHIP with Taiwan, warning that it could harm ties.

The armoured troop carriers were being shipped back to Singapore by a cargo vessel which stopped at Kwai Chung container terminal in Hong Kong on Wednesday.

The incident has escalated into a diplomatic row between China and the city state, worsening ties already strained by Singapore’s position in the South China Sea disputes.

It has also put fresh scrutiny on four decades of military cooperation between Taiwan and Singapore – which Beijing has tolerated but with reluctance.

“It is no longer reasonable for Singapore to continue ... any kind of military exchange with Taiwan,” said an opinion article in the Global Times on Monday. The incident with the armoured troop carriers “adds to the suspicion” Singapore was working against the “one-China” principle, the paper said.

It was written by a commentator identified only as Ai Jun, which is a homonym for LOVE the army”.

The article, which appeared only in the paper’s English-language edition, went on to list Singapore’s military relations with the United States and its stance on the South China Sea sovereignty disputes as further demonstrating the city state’s “hypocrisy”.

Is Beijing trying to discourage Singapore-Taiwan relations by having Hong Kong seize armoured vehicles?

It said Singapore was aiding the United States in containing China by allowing US forces to be stationed at the Changi Naval Base.

“If public opinion about Singapore changes in China, it will turn into a huge blow for bilateral ties,” the paper said.

South China Morning Post.

Come on, Singapore has been training in Taiwan for god know when. Why all of sudden, they bring up the one china policy as if it was introduced yesterday to seize the armoured vehicles on the way back to Singapore from Taiwan ?

It is nothing but a tit-for-tat for the spat on the South China Sea dispute.

Clearly, it is a one upmanship of who is the real boss in South East Asia .
 

Pinkieslut

Alfrescian
Loyal
DEFENCE NOTES rss feed

Analysis: Terrexgate politics and defence collide

28th November 2016 - 8:33 by Gordon Arthur in Hong Kong
Analysis: Terrexgate politics and defence collide
Diplomatic telephone lines between Singapore and China were glowing red after nine Singapore Army Terrex 8x8 infantry carrier vehicles (ICV) were impounded in Hong Kong on 23 November.

Being carried aboard the commercial ship APL Qatar 041, nine vehicles and three containers holding ancillary equipment were en route from Kaohsiung in Taiwan to Singapore. They were confiscated for allegedly being undeclared military equipment.

What emerged is that the Chinese authorities were responsible for this act using the Hong Kong Customs and Excise Department. The ship stopped in Xiamen in China on 21 November before reaching Hong Kong two days later.


Hong Kong Customs originally said it was a ‘routine inspection’, but Chinese law enforcement agencies tipped them off. Furthermore, instead of employing the usual two or three customs officers, a whole team was despatched to search APL Qatar 041.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said goods arriving and exiting Hong Kong should abide by relevant rules. Tellingly, he added that China ‘has long been resolutely opposed to official exchanges, including military exchange and cooperation, between Taiwan and any countries that have diplomatic ties with China’.

This is the heart of the matter, for the Terrex ICVs were being used in Taiwan for Singapore’s secretive Starlight training programme, which was started following a 1975 agreement. Singapore has continuous troop detachments training in Taiwan, though unilaterally rather than bilaterally.

Interestingly, a photo of one of the Terrex vehicles shows it sporting a Taiwanese number plate, a measure taken to disguise the vehicle’s origins whilst in Taiwan. Unsurprisingly, press releases issued by Singapore’s Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) continued to avoid any reference to Taiwan.

China has historically maintained a stony silence about Singapore’s training presence in Taiwan, even though it rankles. With Singapore now being more outspoken about China’s assertive claims in the South China Sea, clearly a tipping point was reached in Beijing’s relations with the island state.

An editorial reprinted by the People’s Daily lent strength to the political nature of the debacle. It asserted, ‘For quite some time, Singapore has been pretending to seek a balance between China and the US, yet has been taking Washington’s side in reality.’ In support, it referred to Singapore’s willingness to host US Navy assets and the operation of P-8A maritime patrol aircraft.

The editorial accused Singapore of being ‘a platform for Washington to contain and deter Beijing’. It added, ‘Singapore claimed it was not picking sides in the South China Sea disputes, but its remarks about the issue are far from neutral; instead, it has actually complicated and expanded the scale of the case.’

By confiscating these Singapore Army vehicles, and using Hong Kong as a proxy to help defray direct responsibility, China showed its anger against Singapore for the culminating ‘crimes’ of cooperating with Taiwan and daring to resist China’s narrative in the South China Sea.

The incident also raises questions about transportation of military equipment. Singapore has long been using commercial shipping to move assets internationally, including to and from Taiwan.

However, MINDEF’s claim that shipping companies are ‘required to comply with stringent requirements for protection against theft and tampering of equipment’, and that there have been ‘no incidents of losses, theft or tampering over the years,’ is little consolation now.

MINDEF pointed a finger of blame at the APL shipping company, saying it was ‘required to comply with all regulations including the declaration of transported equipment…’ However, it does reflect complacency Singapore’s part – should it not have recognised the risks in transporting military equipment from Taiwan via Chinese ports?

It certainly illustrates Singapore’s vulnerability if the island comes under threat, especially since many assets are distributed around the globe for training purposes. In any conflict scenario, it would appear relatively simple for China, or any other potential adversary, to block access or to apply pressure.

There are lessons to be learned here for other countries such as Japan, the Philippines, South Korea or Taiwan, where China could interdict foreign vessels to express political displeasure.

Is Hong Kong Customs likely to allow access by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) or its affiliates to examine the Terrex vehicles? Customs did not respond to Shephard’s query on this issue, but this is clearly a fear since Singapore despatched a team to help secure the vehicles.

While the Terrex is a decade-old design, of far greater interest to China would be any digital battlefield management system (BMS) aboard the vehicles. MINDEF stated there was ‘no sensitive equipment on board’ the Terrex vehicles, although this is a denial one would expect.

The Terrex has international connections too. ST Kinetics entered the Terrex 3 (Sentinel II) in the Australian Army’s Land 400 Phase 2 competition, although it was not selected. Elsewhere, the Terrex 2 is a contender in the US Marine Corps ACV1.1 requirement.

For this reason alone, the Terrex and its underlying design philosophy should be of interest to Chinese engineers.

In a statement issued on 24 November, MINDEF said it expected ‘the shipment to return to Singapore expeditiously’. However, the fate of these nine vehicles is far from assured and will depend on negotiations with China’s Foreign Ministry.

Hong Kong has previously permanently confiscated military vehicles transiting through the territory, including a WZ551 on its way back to China from a Thai defence exhibition. In 2010 five BTR-70 vehicles were intercepted on their way to China, and at least one now serves as a park ornament.

Two armoured vehicles, including a K21 – returning to South Korea after a demonstration in Saudi Arabia in 2010 – were given back to their owner after a missing customs document was supplied.

Singapore announced in May that it was investing $1.66 billion in a large upgrade and enhanced utilisation of military training facilities in Australia. The state is already in the process of pivoting more training to its southern ally. Whether the movement of nine Terrex ICVs from Taiwan was part of that transition or just a regular rotation is unclear.

Whatever the case, this Terrexgate incident is likely to only strengthen Singapore’s resolve to rely more on Australian training and less on Taiwan...which is exactly what China wanted in the first place anyway. Its goal is always to marginalise Taiwan at every opportunity.
 
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singularity

Alfrescian
Loyal
DEFENCE NOTES rss feed

Analysis: Terrexgate politics and defence collide.

terrexgate!! LOL!

Perhaps the Australia training grounds investment is really a hedge against that of Taiwan's training grounds, knowing full well that Taiwan is in a politically contentious position?
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Time for the 2 surgeons to FO. I propose that Khaw BW be immediately appointed as minister of Defence and Foreign Affairs. We need able leaders in a crisis. Khaw is the best option.
 

Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There is a need for a stronger and more decisive individual as the Minister for Foreign Minister and Minister of Defence.
The ugly slitty small eye second Minister is probably not decisive enough, unlike his father.
 

Rogue Trader

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Time for the 2 surgeons to FO. I propose that Khaw BW be immediately appointed as minister of Defence and Foreign Affairs. We need able leaders in a crisis. Khaw is the best option.

Mr Fix It will get our Terrexes back from China!

mqdefault.jpg
 

flatearther

Alfrescian
Loyal
There is a need for a stronger and more decisive individual as the Minister for Foreign Minister and Minister of Defence.
Don't worry, because in the near future, we will have an even "stronger and more decisive" Prime Minister:
sammyboy.com/showthread.php?234846-Why is Chan Chun Sing the only Minister (other than LHL) among the seven eulogizers?
[video=youtube;1iEQCCUsdHk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iEQCCUsdHk[/video]

mothership.sg/2015/01/chan-chun-sings-reaction-after-hearing-he-could-be-the-next-labour-chief



:p
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Those terrex needs to be offloaded if they need to discharge the containers below. Once everything completes the terrex can then be loaded back to the vessel. In shipping line this is called 'landing and reship'.

Yes, I believe that this was what happened at the previous stop in Xiamen. I think the chinese authorities noted that the Terrex were offloaded from the vessel onto the dock at Xiamen, and alerted the HKG authorities.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Zikapore sell off own shipping line, own power stations and own petroleum company. No more energy and transport security. Pathetic.

I think this is a part of it. They cannot control the shipping line anymore. The shipping line cannot be ordered not to offload the Terrex in HKG. When it was owned by Temasek, I supposed they could.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
They do sent LST but it for amphibious exercise purpose. Else it not cost effective at all to use them solely as freight carrier. Saf will usually engage commercial carrier and RO-RO to ship their equipments.

When it comes to sensitive items like this, cost CAN NEVER BE A CONSIDERATION. What is the cost to them now to lose $30 million worth of AFVs? So it will cost more to send the Endeavour class ships to pick them up or even keep an older LST around just to do that, so what? its much better then the political fall out now and the lost of one company of Terrex.
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Yes, I believe that this was what happened at the previous stop in Xiamen. I think the chinese authorities noted that the Terrex were offloaded from the vessel onto the dock at Xiamen, and alerted the HKG authorities.

wtf? transhipped via and offloaded at xiamen some more. wtf are the mindef logistics team thinking? they should have known the apl route beforehand. they are leaving things to chance. komplacency must have set in after hours of kopi, kaya toast, shaking legs, and talking kock.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
China lodges protest with Singapore after military vehicles seized by Hong Kong customs

China’s foreign ministry has lodged a protest with Singapore after nine Singaporean military vehicles were seized by Hong Kong customs en route from Taiwan last week.

Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang revealed the news at a regular press briefing on Monday.

“We call on Singapore to act in accordance with the laws of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region in handling the matter,” Geng said. “We oppose any nations that have diplomatic ties with China to have contacts with Taiwan, including military relations,” he said, adding: “We call on Singapore to abide by the one China principle.”

Geng’s remarks came as the nationalist Global Times tabloid denounced Singapore’s “hypocrisy” over its military RELATIONSHIP with Taiwan, warning that it could harm ties.

.

the PAP has really been rubbing the nose of the chinese in shit until they cannot tahan anymore.

for decades, the chinese have known that we have close military ties with ROC. They have given us face and turn a blind eye to it. But now, we offload our AFVs on their soil and in fact, not only AFV, but AFV with Taiwan military license plates on it, its really a big snub in the eyes of China. What kind of fucking stupid govt will do this?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
wtf? transhipped via and offloaded at xiamen some more. wtf are the mindef logistics team thinking? they should have known the apl route beforehand. they are leaving things to chance. komplacency must have set in after hours of kopi, kaya toast, shaking legs, and talking kock.

Yes, Factwire had obtained the shipping manifest. The Ship stopped at Xiamen, then HKG, and I think Vietnam, then singapore. When a mistake is discovered, if at all, in the past, Temasek had the pull to order the ship to divert to another non china port. Worse comes to worse, you compensate the clients for the delay in shipping. But i am sure the new French owners told them to fuck off.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHA*cough* *cough* *choke* HehehehHAHAHAHbwabwa

I am so happy.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Come on, Singapore has been training in Taiwan for god know when. Why all of sudden, they bring up the one china policy as if it was introduced yesterday to seize the armoured vehicles on the way back to Singapore from Taiwan ?

It is nothing but a tit-for-tat for the spat on the South China Sea dispute.

Clearly, it is a one upmanship of who is the real boss in South East Asia .

Yes, we all know there is a dispute with china over the South china sea. But given the fact there is a dispute and that the relations are in a low period, is it then still wise to ship our armoured vehicles in Taiwanese military markings through 2 chinese ports (Xiamen and HKG)? It is just foolhardy and stupid and shows a complete lack of diplomatic acumen.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
If LHL keep insisting that China return the 9 whatever lousy tank shit it is, I hope China loads the 9 whatever shit it is into a few Xian Y-20s and then roll them off in mid air and have it returned to Singapore on the ground. Can drop it over the Padang nice clear space for it.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
terrexgate!! LOL!

Perhaps the Australia training grounds investment is really a hedge against that of Taiwan's training grounds, knowing full well that Taiwan is in a politically contentious position?

what is not known is that in the past, singapore had a very close relationship with Taiwan. Old Fart and Chiang ching kuo were close allies and buddies. Everyone knows that the Jews help set up the army, but not many know that the taiwanese helped set up the navy, in fact the first head of the navy was a retired Taiwanese admiral. with the death of old fart and chiang ching kuo, this relationship is gone.

The govt has spend hundreds of millions $ thru the years expanding the bases in taiwan and paying the taiwanese for the use of them. Now everything will gave to be written off. In retrospect, we should have set up all our training facilities in Australia decades ago instead of in unstable Taiwan, as we have already have the frame work under the 5 power agreement. But as we all know, almost all military decisions in singapore are not done on the basis of logic or military strategy but on personal biasness.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
If LHL keep insisting that China return the 9 whatever lousy tank shit it is, I hope China loads the 9 whatever shit it is into a few Xian Y-20s and then roll them off in mid air and have it returned to Singapore on the ground. Can drop it over the Padang nice clear space for it.


how about on Oxley or the istana or on parliament while they are in session?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
DEFENCE NOTES rss feed

Analysis: Terrexgate politics and defence collide

28th November 2016 - 8:33 by Gordon Arthur in Hong Kong
Analysis: Terrexgate politics and defence collide
Diplomatic telephone lines between Singapore and China were glowing red after nine Singapore Army Terrex 8x8 infantry carrier vehicles (ICV) were impounded in Hong Kong on 23 November.

Being carried aboard the commercial ship APL Qatar 041, nine vehicles and three containers holding ancillary equipment were en route from Kaohsiung in Taiwan to Singapore. They were confiscated for allegedly being undeclared military equipment.

What emerged is that the Chinese authorities were responsible for this act using the Hong Kong Customs and Excise Department. The ship stopped in Xiamen in China on 21 November before reaching Hong Kong two days later.


Hong Kong Customs originally said it was a ‘routine inspection’, but Chinese law enforcement agencies tipped them off. Furthermore, instead of employing the usual two or three customs officers, a whole team was despatched to search APL Qatar 041.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said goods arriving and exiting Hong Kong should abide by relevant rules. Tellingly, he added that China ‘has long been resolutely opposed to official exchanges, including military exchange and cooperation, between Taiwan and any countries that have diplomatic ties with China’.

This is the heart of the matter, for the Terrex ICVs were being used in Taiwan for Singapore’s secretive Starlight training programme, which was started following a 1975 agreement. Singapore has continuous troop detachments training in Taiwan, though unilaterally rather than bilaterally.

Interestingly, a photo of one of the Terrex vehicles shows it sporting a Taiwanese number plate, a measure taken to disguise the vehicle’s origins whilst in Taiwan. Unsurprisingly, press releases issued by Singapore’s Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) continued to avoid any reference to Taiwan.

China has historically maintained a stony silence about Singapore’s training presence in Taiwan, even though it rankles. With Singapore now being more outspoken about China’s assertive claims in the South China Sea, clearly a tipping point was reached in Beijing’s relations with the island state.

An editorial reprinted by the People’s Daily lent strength to the political nature of the debacle. It asserted, ‘For quite some time, Singapore has been pretending to seek a balance between China and the US, yet has been taking Washington’s side in reality.’ In support, it referred to Singapore’s willingness to host US Navy assets and the operation of P-8A maritime patrol aircraft.

The editorial accused Singapore of being ‘a platform for Washington to contain and deter Beijing’. It added, ‘Singapore claimed it was not picking sides in the South China Sea disputes, but its remarks about the issue are far from neutral; instead, it has actually complicated and expanded the scale of the case.’

By confiscating these Singapore Army vehicles, and using Hong Kong as a proxy to help defray direct responsibility, China showed its anger against Singapore for the culminating ‘crimes’ of cooperating with Taiwan and daring to resist China’s narrative in the South China Sea.

The incident also raises questions about transportation of military equipment. Singapore has long been using commercial shipping to move assets internationally, including to and from Taiwan.

However, MINDEF’s claim that shipping companies are ‘required to comply with stringent requirements for protection against theft and tampering of equipment’, and that there have been ‘no incidents of losses, theft or tampering over the years,’ is little consolation now.

MINDEF pointed a finger of blame at the APL shipping company, saying it was ‘required to comply with all regulations including the declaration of transported equipment…’ However, it does reflect complacency Singapore’s part – should it not have recognised the risks in transporting military equipment from Taiwan via Chinese ports?

It certainly illustrates Singapore’s vulnerability if the island comes under threat, especially since many assets are distributed around the globe for training purposes. In any conflict scenario, it would appear relatively simple for China, or any other potential adversary, to block access or to apply pressure.

There are lessons to be learned here for other countries such as Japan, the Philippines, South Korea or Taiwan, where China could interdict foreign vessels to express political displeasure.

Is Hong Kong Customs likely to allow access by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) or its affiliates to examine the Terrex vehicles? Customs did not respond to Shephard’s query on this issue, but this is clearly a fear since Singapore despatched a team to help secure the vehicles.

While the Terrex is a decade-old design, of far greater interest to China would be any digital battlefield management system (BMS) aboard the vehicles. MINDEF stated there was ‘no sensitive equipment on board’ the Terrex vehicles, although this is a denial one would expect.

The Terrex has international connections too. ST Kinetics entered the Terrex 3 (Sentinel II) in the Australian Army’s Land 400 Phase 2 competition, although it was not selected. Elsewhere, the Terrex 2 is a contender in the US Marine Corps ACV1.1 requirement.

For this reason alone, the Terrex and its underlying design philosophy should be of interest to Chinese engineers.

In a statement issued on 24 November, MINDEF said it expected ‘the shipment to return to Singapore expeditiously’. However, the fate of these nine vehicles is far from assured and will depend on negotiations with China’s Foreign Ministry.

Hong Kong has previously permanently confiscated military vehicles transiting through the territory, including a WZ551 on its way back to China from a Thai defence exhibition. In 2010 five BTR-70 vehicles were intercepted on their way to China, and at least one now serves as a park ornament.

Two armoured vehicles, including a K21 – returning to South Korea after a demonstration in Saudi Arabia in 2010 – were given back to their owner after a missing customs document was supplied.

Singapore announced in May that it was investing $1.66 billion in a large upgrade and enhanced utilisation of military training facilities in Australia. The state is already in the process of pivoting more training to its southern ally. Whether the movement of nine Terrex ICVs from Taiwan was part of that transition or just a regular rotation is unclear.

Whatever the case, this Terrexgate incident is likely to only strengthen Singapore’s resolve to rely more on Australian training and less on Taiwan...which is exactly what China wanted in the first place anyway. Its goal is always to marginalise Taiwan at every opportunity.

This guys sounds like he came to this thread, read all the comments and then wrote the article. From what he is saying, it does not sound like we will get our Terrexes back at all.
 
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