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Thread: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

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    Default Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Well, this time the PAP and MINDEF has really screwed the pooch on this one. I really don’t know what to say on how badly this was handled and the level of incompetence shown at all levels. The whole situation opens up many more questions. I want to put my 2 cents worth in, as usual, and just share my thoughts and observations.


    1) There has been some reports that the cargo vessel used to transport the Terrex transited in HKG to offload other cargo and accidentally offloaded the 9 Terrex. This was no accident. Because the Terrex does not fit in a standard shipping container, and the way that the Terrex was packaged, it was obvious to anyone that the silhouette under the tarpaulin could only be that of a tank or an Armoured Fighting Vehicle (AFV). Any dockyard workers or even PLA personnel and customs and police personnel can see that. Once this was reported to the higher authorities, likely, the ship was order to unload the Terrexes. The Chinese will never allow AFVs to be shipped through one of their ports without finding out what it is. So, this part was not a accident but a deliberate act by the Chinese, which escalates the situation immeasurably.





    2)
    What the heck were the AFVs doing, transiting through HKG in the first place? That is ridiculous. The reports indicate that they were shipped from the Taiwan port of Kaohsiung to Singapore. Which by itself is another ridiculous comment. It was mentioned by MINDEF that the Terrexes were:



    The Straits Times said, “the armoured vehicles were being used by infantry troops who were undergoing their annual combat proficiency test, which is conducted by the Army Training Evaluation Centre, or Atec, in Hukou Camp in Hsinchu county, south-west of Taiwan.”



    I know the Hukou camp very well, having been there many times. The Hukou camp is nowhere near the South West of Taiwan. In fact, it’s in the north East, close to the Port of Taipei and the Port of Keelung. If you have to ship sensitive cargo like AFVs out of Taiwan from Hukou, you would do it at one of those ports and not ship them all the way south to Kaohsiung. Kaohsiung is primarily an infantry training area for the SAF while Hukou is the one for SAF Armour. So this is an outright lie. Cargoes such as these Terrexes should be shipped directly to Singapore and not transit anywhere. Better still, a RSN vessel like an Endurance class Landing Platform Dock Ship (LPD) should have been used to transport these AFVs back to Singapore. The Endurance class can easily accommodate all the AFVS and more. Why was the RSN not tasked with the transportation of these AFVS, this is a role that they are familiar with and have done in the past? MINDEF needs to stop stretching the LPD resource by sending them to the Middle East as part of this useless task force or that useless support mission. They need to stop scoring brownie points with the US and other countries and take care of our own business.



    You can also see here the effect that the loss of NOL has on this situation. Now that NOL is not a GLC , some idiot at MINDEF decided to use the cheapest shipper not knowing that they stopped off in HKG. If NOL was used, hopefully, some reservist or experienced person would have noticed that this is not a direct journey and notified some idiot in SAF to take care of it. In a worst case scenario, the ship can be diverted and re-routed away from HKG after the mistake was discouvered, but guess what, we don’t own the frigging shipping company anymore.


    MINDEF has been shipping AFVs all over the world for decades. We shipped KP and AMX-13 tanks to Taiwan, and also M113s. We ship AMX-13s to Brunei, and Bionix, Leo 2 and AMX-13 and M113 to Australia. There has never before been an incident like this. Something has changed with the mindset and intelligence level at MINDEF and the SAF. How do you expect to successfully propagate a war or defend the island when you cannot get a simple thing like this straight any more? A scarier thought is that the shipment was hijacked instead of discovered during transit in HKG. Its possible that the Terrexes were placed on a direct ship to Singapore, but the ship was a China national flag and owned vessel. The Chinese could have ordered their own shipping company to order the ship captain to divert to HKG. That way, they are sending a message to the Taiwanese and to Singapore not to have this sort of co-operation again.



    3) This is a political escalation by the Chinese. 3 days ago, Lee Hsien Loong told China that they are not the Middle Kingdom anymore, and telling China they will have to fit into a global network. The Chinese decide to repay him by confiscating the AFVs. Now, MINDEF says that “they expect the shipment to be returned expeditiously”, which is basically telling the Chinese to return our crap ASAP. I would think that the PAP are the only idiots in the room that do not realize the Chinese hold all the cards. I mean they have possession of our property, the property is illegal in China, and it was shipped on board a vessel without any approval or paperwork and docked in China. If I were the PAP, I would stop making public demands from the Chinese to “expeditiously return” the AFVs and work behind the scenes to get this done. Is this too hard for the SAF Ex scholar generals to comprehend? This is why you do not put ex Eye Doctors to become your Minister for Foreign Affairs, for the simple reason that they can’t tell foreign policy from a puddle of dog excrement. This whole affair should have been handled through the back channels and never even made the light of day, even if Factwire broke the news.

    4)
    Why has our relation with Taiwan deteriorated to this level? We have a substantial investment in the Hukou camp in Taiwan. We paid them a lot of money to build a camp within a camp for our SAF Starlight deployments for armour units. We used to have KP tanks and AMX-13s in tank sheds in Hukou, with the maintenance perm staff and other supplies there. Why aren’t we stationing the Terrex there instead of shipping them back? Did the Taiwanese tell us to remove them immediately, and hence there was a rush to get them out and ended using an inappropriate shipper? We have been doing ATEC training in Australia under Exercise MAthilda for a long time now why switch back to Taiwan? We used to station our tanks in Taiwan for months and years, so I am just wondering why we are shipping these back.

    5)
    This incident in my opinion will torpedo the ST Engineering bid to supply a version of Terrex to the US Marine Corp in their Amphibious Combat Vehicle competition. ST Engineering and its American partner were one of 2 finalists for the competition. The winner will supply the USMC with its next generation amphibious assault vehicle and initial order of over 200 units with follow on orders for potentially much more. This could be a multibillion dollar contract with ST wins it. The version of the Terrex being marketed to the USMC and under trials now for the competition is an improved version. It has the same basic Caterpillar C9 engine but puts out about 200HP more. And it is heavier at 29-30 tons versus 24 tons for the Terrex in SAF service. Nontheless, there are still many similarities with the version that the USMC is trialing. This confiscation will allow the PLA to completely analyze and evaluate the Terrex. THere is nothing to stop them from stripping the entire Terrex down and examining their hydropneumatic suspension, and water jet propulsion engines, these are 2 areas that the Chinese would like to see improvement in their own AFVs. Heck, they could drive one around to evaluate the mobility, fording, open water performance of the Terrex, and drive it to the ground, then set it up as a target fire all sorts of weapons at it to see how strong its armour protection is and where the vulnerable parts of the AFV are. The modular MEXAS armour would be of prime interest to the Chinese as they can reverse engineer it and find out its performance. Not to mention too that the Terrex has some other unique systems like an all round camera system for closed hatch driving, such goodies like GPS and a surveillance system that shows the driver where the vehicle is on a display screen. The vehicle also has a weapons detection system which is an acoustic system that allows the vehicle commander to see where enemy fire is coming from. The Terrex NBC suite (its defence against Nuclear, Bio and Chemical weapons) is almost certainly more sophisticated then anything the PLA has. The remote control weapons system (RCWS) is also unique to the Terrex and the Chinese would love to see how it works and it it can be used in their own AFVs. Finally, the brains of the Terrex, the Battlefield Management System is now fallen into the hands of the PLA. If I were the US Marine Corp, I would be feeling pretty naked now, knowing that the Chinese have their hands on my potential future AFV and knowing it intimately. Would the Chinese pass up this chance to dissect the Terrex, knowing that it is a potential buy for the USMC, I would think not. So, ST is pretty much screwed on this.

    6) There has been some speculation that the Terrexes were being trialled in Taiwan for potential sale to the Taiwanese. I don't think this is the case as it would create a shit storm from the Chinese and as well, many components of the Terrex are US made and hence needs an approval or licence from the US.


    In any case, I think this is a huge mess and not only is it scary to the PAP and MINDEF, it is scary to Taiwan and all potential countries that Singapore ships equipment to, as well as to the US in that the vehicle is potentially compromised for their USMC trials.



    Just my 2 cents.


    *Author allows this article to be re-produced.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Fear not good sir. It just a misunderstanding. Things are ours and we ship to ourselves, they want to see see look look should have just asked lah! Such actions can cause much misunderstanding. No good!

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    If China does not release the shipment Singapore will unleash its military might and orchestrate an almighty shock and awe attack that will leave China reeling.

    We have the hardware and we have the talent. China will do well not to underestimate us.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    简单地说:

    这些是向全世界表面立场实况的动作表演。特别是给美国与台湾信息。

    就是新加坡绝不是中国政府合作关系良好的信任伙伴朋友。而是就要修理教训惩罚好看的榜样。新加坡只是成语里 面❝杀鸡儆猴❞里面的那个鸡🐔。杀溅血出来给猴子🐒猢狲们看看明白,下次轮到你们就这样下场。

    汉奸该死,必须一直展示有效的典例给世界看看。

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    u know when a military uses words like expeditiously supercalifragilisticexpialidocious their guns got more bang bang than bite.....facepalm ttm.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by Leongsam View Post
    If China does not release the shipment Singapore will unleash its military might and orchestrate an almighty shock and awe attack that will leave China reeling.

    We have the hardware and we have the talent. China will do well not to underestimate us.
    There are plenty of undesireable PRC citizens in Spore. So why not use the opportunity as an excuse to return some of these troublesome PRC citizens to China e.g. prostitutes, scammers, conman, bicycle thieves, trouble makers, ....

    Threaten to send more of them back each week if the vehicles are not returned.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny333 View Post
    There are plenty of undesireable PRC citizens in Spore. So why not use the opportunity as an excuse to return some of these troublesome PRC citizens to China e.g. prostitutes, scammers, conman, bicycle thieves, trouble makers, ....

    Threaten to send more of them back each week if the vehicles are not returned.
    Yeah let's rape and plunder all Chinese Nationals in Singapore till China begs for mercy.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny333 View Post
    There are plenty of undesireable PRC citizens in Spore. So why not use the opportunity as an excuse to return some of these troublesome PRC citizens to China e.g. prostitutes, scammers, conman, bicycle thieves, trouble makers, ....

    Threaten to send more of them back each week if the vehicles are not returned.
    all the PRCs have to do is to drop everything and cease whatever they are doing and the economy of Singapore will cease to function.if all PRC goes on strike for three days,singapore's stock index will fall by 60%.PAP goes bankrupt,garmen dont have enough liquidity to fulfill cpf obligations,singapore declares bankruptcy like Greece,thousands of sinkies commit suicide.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by Leongsam View Post
    If China does not release the shipment Singapore will unleash its military might and orchestrate an almighty shock and awe attack that will leave China reeling.

    We have the hardware and we have the talent. China will do well not to underestimate us.
    The only shock and awe we can deliver to the chinese is when we SAF open mob and send all the troops to geylang to gang fuck the PRC tiongbus there. Even then, we may lose when they out fuck our boys.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    I expect heads will roll n head of supply chain to be removed.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Papsmearer so much time write long long essay

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchbriefs View Post
    all the PRCs have to do is to drop everything and cease whatever they are doing and the economy of Singapore will cease to function.if all PRC goes on strike for three days,singapore's stock index will fall by 60%.PAP goes bankrupt,garmen dont have enough liquidity to fulfill cpf obligations,singapore declares bankruptcy like Greece,thousands of sinkies commit suicide.

    I doubt that all the PRC chinese in Spore would listen to the motherland because they have to worry about their own rice bowl. Don't forget that these people are only here because of $. If they have to return to China who is going to support them

    I'm sure that there are millions of Indians, Indonesians, filipinos,.... out there willing to replace them.

    I'm sure the PAP can think of ways to delay or cheat them out of their CPF like what they have done to Sporeans. What are the chinese going to do

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by cocobobo View Post
    Papsmearer so much time write long long essay

    Papsmearer long essay is insightful; those Terrexs perhaps were return fro Taiwan for other purposes and perhaps there are more things inside there the public should be kept out from. With the Chinese showing interest in it indirectly; there is more to it then meets the eye.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    There is rumour that the weapons were carried by Pacific International Lines due to close relationship of the owner (who was ex NMP) with PAP
    Quote Originally Posted by HK14K View Post
    No worries, the "Hero & Coward" thread will come but we should concentrate first on the nation hottest issue...
    Quote Originally Posted by gingerlyn View Post
    shameful and despicable scum PAP regime,
    a small island with millions of salary for PAP cronies from tax payers fund and yet have many hottest issues?

    only people who receive some scum benefits from shameful and despicable PAP regime cronies would agree your statement

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmore View Post
    Papsmearer long essay is insightful; those Terrexs perhaps were return fro Taiwan for other purposes and perhaps there are more things inside there the public should be kept out from. With the Chinese showing interest in it indirectly; there is more to it then meets the eye.

    My sense is that
    MINDEF is not going to get these AFVs back anytime soon. The Chinese history is that they will quickly dig up as much info as they can on the Terrex while in their custody before returning them if at all. That is what they did when the US EP-3 made an emergency landing in Hainan. I am leaning towards a hijack theory. The Chinese would love to have a detailed look at these AFVs due to the fact that a version is a finalist in the USMC ACV competition. Since any future conflict will see the USMC front and centre against the PLA, it makes sense that they want a detailed look at the Terrex. What if the SAF and MINDEF were not that fucked up? What if they were stupid enough to ship this cargo via a China based shipping line like COSCO on a direct route to Singapore. What if the captain of the vessel was ordered to divert to HKG by the shipping company head office and hence the AFV fell into the hands of the Chinese. This would be a backdoor way for the Chinese to tell the PAP that they can fucking well do anything they want with us, especially if we continue to have close defence arrangements with taiwan.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerlyn View Post
    There is rumour that the weapons were carried by Pacific International Lines due to close relationship of the owner (who was ex NMP) with PAP

    This is possible
    because the former CEO of Tiger Air was from PIL, and as you can guess, he knows nuts about airline industry. hence Tiger goes under.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations



    You can see from this picture a clear shot of the remote control weapons system (RCWS). I expect this system to be entirely copied by the Chinese within a year and installed on some of their AFVs.

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by mojito View Post
    Fear not good sir. It just a misunderstanding. Things are ours and we ship to ourselves, they want to see see look look should have just asked lah! Such actions can cause much misunderstanding. No good!
    China is flexing its muscles, show its displeasure and make life difficult for PAP and Singapore. This is the result of bad blood between China and PAP

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    can u zoom and see the container number?
    if u can see the container number, we can find out the carrier that carry this weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by HK14K View Post
    No worries, the "Hero & Coward" thread will come but we should concentrate first on the nation hottest issue...
    Quote Originally Posted by gingerlyn View Post
    shameful and despicable scum PAP regime,
    a small island with millions of salary for PAP cronies from tax payers fund and yet have many hottest issues?

    only people who receive some scum benefits from shameful and despicable PAP regime cronies would agree your statement

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    Default Re: Terrex AFV confiscation in HKG: The Implications and Revelations

    Quote Originally Posted by gingerlyn View Post
    can u zoom and see the container number?
    if u can see the container number, we can find out the carrier that carry this weapon.
    Ok, I can confirm with you that the shipping company was APL (American President Line) formerly owned by NOL. But now owned by the company that bought NOL, the French company CGM CMA. This is what happens when you let your national shipping company get run into the ground by SAf scholar generals and have to be sold to a foreign company, and consequently losing control over such sensitive shipments.

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