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Serious After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat ah!

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Nope I totally understand you Singaporean patients. When asked you will say yeah respect doctor and all that jazz. But as you can see on your "hindsight" you don't trust them.

In Singapore because there is this stupid two tiered system, people think that if you are big shot enough, if you are rich enough can cure cancer lah cure everything lah. Sorry doesn't work like that.

Anyway the Singapore system does not help develop and maintain trust between doctors and patient and the public. It is all about money and face.

I am very careful with patients from Asia because they are so used to this rich people get better care poor people get poor care nonsense.

So I practice defensive. In my mind I do whatever is necessary and beyond. Kiasu kiasee. Make sure all bases covered no stone unturned. Want to complain also nothing to complain. In Singapore very hard to practice like that cos later on patient will say wah want to do Ultrasound? Bone scan? MRI? Refer specialist? I got no money lah.......

Ginbitchy, if you kena dogbite next time, please go to TTSH and INSIST on getting rabies PEP and pay for it. Let me know how much it cost you ok?

Lol I bought myself maximum critical illness insurance and private medical insurance as soon as I started working to cover cancer. But no use such insurance cannot cover all these scans that you said unless already confirmed diagnosis of cancer. But diagnosis it's sometimes difficult like my relative case they also can't detect where's the cancer until the end stage they realised it's in the bones.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Exactly, Sam. Yet you have all these ignorant Singaporeans who talk like they are expert infectious disease specialists saying that if you get bitten by a dog (like anywhere in the world) you should get a rabies shot! Oh well. That's what you get in Singapore. Doctors explain they probably don't trust them because of some "hindsight" thing that happened to a friend or a family member.

Alamak why you say like that? Don't you think my hindsight is valid in my father's case? Lots of suspicious points what. We should have just gone on palliative care and he would have survived a few years and not months due to the stress caused by the surgery.
 

Leongsam

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Exactly, Sam. Yet you have all these ignorant Singaporeans who talk like they are expert infectious disease specialists saying that if you get bitten by a dog (like anywhere in the world) you should get a rabies shot! Oh well. That's what you get in Singapore. Doctors explain they probably don't trust them because of some "hindsight" thing that happened to a friend or a family member.

These are exactly the same people who demand antibiotics for the common cold.

The vast majority of my friends thought I was crazy when I told them I always threw away the antibiotics that were dished out willy nilly by Sinkie GPs.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

These are exactly the same people who demand antibiotics for the common cold.

The vast majority of my friends thought I was crazy when I told them I always threw away the antibiotics that were dished out willy nilly by Sinkie GPs.

You are wrong. Don't know about ginbitchy but I don't like taking antibiotics too.
 

Leongsam

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Lol I bought myself maximum critical illness insurance and private medical insurance as soon as I started working to cover cancer. But no use such insurance cannot cover all these scans that you said unless already confirmed diagnosis of cancer. But diagnosis it's sometimes difficult like my relative case they also can't detect where's the cancer until the end stage they realised it's in the bones.

I say forget about trying to fight cancer. It's going to get you sooner or later no matter what.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

I say forget about trying to fight cancer. It's going to get you sooner or later no matter what.

Why you curse me like that? Who knows I will live cancer free until 100?
 

Leongsam

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Why you curse me like that? Who knows I will live cancer free until 100?

As you get older things start to go wrong. It's a matter of which part of the body packs up first. Anyone who wants to live till 100 is crazy. The quality of life after 80 is never good and after 90 things start to go downhill rapidly.

There are exceptions but these are few and far between. It requires very good genes. Modern medicine isn't enough.

I want to go in my early 60s. Hopefully it is quick and relatively painless.
 

nayr69sg

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Lol I bought myself maximum critical illness insurance and private medical insurance as soon as I started working to cover cancer. But no use such insurance cannot cover all these scans that you said unless already confirmed diagnosis of cancer. But diagnosis it's sometimes difficult like my relative case they also can't detect where's the cancer until the end stage they realised it's in the bones.

Sigh. You sound just like those PRC China patients who come to me for their annual checkups in Calgary. and then they ask how come never do tumour marker blood tests like CEA, CA125. CA-19? Even PSA we no longer do routinely. No MRI? No CT scan? WHAT? WHY? In China we all do leh.

I tell them first the tumour marker tests are proven to be useless in detecting early cancer. There are many false positives and false negatives. Totally useless. Useful only if you already have cancer and have an elevated tumour marker then we monitor any rise in the tumour marker after treatment. Some people have cancer but tumour markers are not elevated.

MRIs and CT scans also have no evidence to support its use in screening for cancer.

The only two cancers that have evidence based screening programs are colorectal cancer (via Fecal immunochemical Test and colonoscopy) and breast cancer (mammograms) *note it is controversial now whether mammograms truly impact on mortality rates from breast cancer.

So in Canada we only screen for breast cancer in women >50 (40 if the patient wants or has strong family history or other risk factors) and colorectal cancer by FIT test and then colonoscopy if FIT is positive for anyone >50 years old. If there is first degree relative who has colorectal cancer then we screen 10 years before the relative was diagnosed eg father had cancer age 50 then we screen at age 40. If father cancer at age 65 we still start screening at age 50.

Patient will threaten me....then if I get cancer before that then how? Well you would have symptoms. Then we investigate with scans. But it is not screening. Screening is doing tests on patients totally without symptoms. It is a different ball game altogether.

Patient will threaten me again, if I got symptoms already then investigate would it be too late already? Well who knows. Maybe. Maybe not. But there has been no successful screening program for other cancers besides colorectal and breast.

They then go on and on about being afraid of getting cancer, why not do all the scans etc.

So I say, well why don't we do this. We ask the Canada government to fund daily MRIs whole body for every single Canadian. Every night before you go to sleep do an MRI. Have an MRI in every single person's home. Why not? They say yeah why not. That's how dumb they are.

Singaporeans also same mentality lah. It is ridiculous.
 

nayr69sg

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

As you get older things start to go wrong. It's a matter of which part of the body packs up first. Anyone who wants to live till 100 is crazy. The quality of life after 80 is never good and after 90 things start to go downhill rapidly.

There are exceptions but these are few and far between. It requires very good genes. Modern medicine isn't enough.

I want to go in my early 60s. Hopefully it is quick and relatively painless.

Then you should eat to your hearts content be overweight have uncontrolled diabetes and hypertension. That would give you the highest chance of getting a heart attack. Go quick and relatively painless. Except if you unlucky kena stroke first and don't die.

I had a patient before who told me off that he wanted to die of heart attack. That's why refuse to take his medications for diabetes and hypertension properly. He said he observed all his friends super fit, run marathon, triathalon, swimmer......all think invincible.....in the end kena cancer. Devastated. Depressed. So he dowan. He want to kena heart attack.

I agreed with him. I then asked him, so why you keep coming to see me? He just kept quiet.

Singaporeans act like very clever. Talk big. Very hard to understand lah.
 

Leongsam

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

MRIs and CT scans also have no evidence to support its use in screening for cancer.

My cycling buddy had a mole removed. It was cancerous. They dug deeper and found that it had spread.

They then removed all the lymph nodes in one leg and did a series of scans. The scans were clear.

Follow up consisted of a routine scans every 6 months. The first two scans were clear.

6 months later, after the 3rd scan, they found tumors in various organs including the liver. My friend is now close to death.

The doctor's explanation..... when the tumors are too small scans don't detect their presence.

Bottom line... current medical technology can't save you no matter how much you spend.
 

nayr69sg

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

My cycling buddy had a mole removed. It was cancerous. They dug deeper and found that it had spread.

They then removed all the lymph nodes in one leg and did a series of scans. The scans were clear.

Follow up consisted of a routine scans every 6 months. The first two scans were clear.

6 months later, after the 3rd scan, they found tumors in various organs including the liver.

The doctor's explanation..... when the tumors are too small scans don't detect their presence. My friend is now close to death.

Bottom line... current medical technology can't save you no matter how much you spend.

Yup. We doctors know this. And we tell patients that as well. (well maybe not all of us, some oncologists like to sell hope).

The media however portrays things differently. And people live in a fantasy world. It is like the SAF thinking they can win wars like war games.
 

hugs

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

This post has made coming to the forum all worthwhile, and more. I wish someone has explained it like this to the patient and the press. Thanks.

Hi ginfreely,

Remember our previous exchanges where I talked about those who complain generally get what they want in the end? Don't get what you want complain more. If go to the newspapers sure get what you want. This is one example.

Before we talk about rabies, let's review what constitutes medical malpractice.

Medical malpractice is professional negligence by act or omission by a health care provider in which the treatment provided falls below the accepted standard of practice in the medical community and causes injury or death to the patient, with most cases involving medical error.

The important aspect of malpractice is whether the act or ommision which constitues negligence causes injury or death. Many cases of errors do not cause harm to the patient and hence would not be successfully tried in court.

A complaint is a complaint and it "looks bad" from a service point of view. Just because the organization apologizes and gives the customer what they want doesn't always mean the company was in the wrong. They just want to issue resolved.

Back to rabies. I'll tell you a funny thing. Last month I saw 2 Chinese patients who came in with dog bites. Said they were bitten by dog while walking. Small toy dogs??? They claimed that is was unprovoked???? I have 3 toy dogs myself and they would not bother biting anyone. Anyway in both cases the dog owner showed the patient their dog's rabies vaccination certificates. But these PRC Chinese were told by their friend from China that if bitten by dog MUST get rabies vaccine!

So they came to me. I asked whether the dogs were rabid and crazy? They said yes! But I said the dogs were vaccinated so the risk of the dogs having rabies is extremely low. I said I will give you tetanus shot and some antibiotics. Their "bites" were really just scratches on their hands. They insisted that they must have rabies shots! I said sorry I do not have rabies shots you have to go to the ED then. In my referral letter to ED I explained that I had given the patients advice but they insisted on rabies shots based on their experience in China.

Remember what I said about third world country patients deserve third world country doctors? Well here's one example. So much hoo-ha over a dog bite and talking about rabies vaccines. Is Singapore third world or first world?

Alright. Now let's establish what is the standard of care in a case of a patient bitten by a dog and concerned about possible rabies transmission.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/...uidance/gd_mng_suspected_rabies_exposures.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/medical_care/index.html

For a quick summary go to page 9 of the 18 page guidance document from Ontario Health.

I remember the assessment bit for rabies because it was a very common question in the CCFP exams for Family doctors in Canada. First we ask what animal. Wild? Domestic? What circumstances? Unprovoked? Signs of the animal being rabid (ie kee siao). Is the owner of the animal contactable? Certificates showing animal was vaccinated? Nature of the injuries. Deep penetrating wounds are more likely to result in transmission than superficial ones. In the instance where there is evidence of valid up to date vaccination in a domestic animal the risk is virtually ZERO. In all other cases the next step is to observe the animal for signs of rabies. If the animal is suspected to be rabid, they put down the animal and run tests on its brain tissue. More so for epidemiology studies. Of course once the animal is suspected rabid we treat the patient ASAP. Rabies IgG (basically antibodies against rabies) is very expensive. Something like one thousand per vial and it takes several vials for an adult. The vaccine only has effect for 2 years. Rabies in urban areas is also extremely rare given the monitoring by environment and wildlife. Hence it is not practical nor a good use of funds to vaccinate humans every 2 years for something so rare. Having said that, rabies is almost invariably fatal. So what we have is a very rare disease, but extremely deadly. It is transmitted from one rabid animal to another but invariably results in death of the infected. Think Zombies but the Zombies die after 10 days.

Let's go back to this case involving Madam Koh. She listed other mistakes as a way to "magnify" the problem. Cholesterol tests......maybe she didn't need it cos the doctor did not feel she needed it. Patients are charged a flat fee for blood tests as far as I know. So the bill did not change whether they added Lipid panel or not. Make noise sure can do it. And it is common practice to call the lab to add it on to the battery if the blood had been drawn into a plain tube for other tests eg Electrolytes and Creatinine. Second one was about forms.....aiyah.....admin errors happen very commonly lah.

Now about the "rabies" case. First, Madam Koh did not have rabies lah. Otherwise she would be DEAD by now. Secondly the report says she was bitten by a dog. What dog? Whose dog? Where? Wild dog? Stray dog? These are important details to report if you want to be a responsible journalist to show whether there was any error in the assessment. Salma Khalik is being irresponsible as a "Health Correspondent". I have always felt she was nothing but a rabble rouser and because doctors are the nicest professionals around and we never bite she gets away with all her crap.

To ginbitchy, you do not understand the protocols and decision making process in administering rabies IgG. Madam Koh was bitten by a dog yes, but it does not mean she NEEDED a rabies vaccine! And on hindsight which is 20/20 we know she definitely DID NOT HAVE RABIES AND DID NOT NEED THE VACCINE. In fact if she was given the vaccine as per your recommendation, that itself would have been a case of medical error as well. (see guidelines on when to administer rabies PEP)

Now the patient was probably seen at the OPD and advised to have a tetanus shot. She got a Typhoid vaccine instead. Note that it was the polyclinic itself that recognized the error and then informed the patient and apologized. If the OPD did not say anything Madam Koh would not know about this error at all. I actually think NHGP should be acknowledged for being honest and truthful and having the patient's best interest above all else. Even risking this bad publicity.

What is a typhoid vaccine? http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/typhoid/

Typhoid vaccines protect you from Salmonella Typhi. A bacterial infection that causes bloody diarrhea and other complications. It is passed through contaminated food (by feces). It is not common in developed countries. We recommend taking it if patients are traveling to areas that are endemic or are going backpacking in the wild. In Singapore all food handlers have to be immunized with Typherix (typhoid vaccine) injection into muscle every 3 years. There is another vaccine called Vivotif which is taken orally on days 1, 3, 5, 7. Most clinics I know have stopped giving the oral form because patients could be unreliable and not take their doses. Whereas with the shot, the nurse or doctor injects and that's it.

Ok so Madam Koh got a Typhoid vaccine instead of a Tetanus vaccine. NHGP called her back probably to tell her the mistake and that they would need to give her a Tetanus shot because she did not receive it. Note that NHGP called her back THE NEXT DAY. Very fast.

Would the fact that Madam Koh got a Typhoid vaccine constitute medical malpractice? No. We give the shot to lots of people. All the waiters and waitresses you see at restaurants have had it. Literally thousands. Very safe. If anything....free vaccine, extra protection for travel next 3 years! Yay!

Would the fact that Madam Koh did not receive a tetanus shot constitute medical malpractice? Well if she got tetanus within the few hours between the mistake and her finally getting her shot then perhaps yes. But note that all Singaporeans have had their immunizations with Tetanus. We generally recommend a booster every 10 years. Or in any possible contaminated injury then and the last immunization date is unsure then we give another. No harm getting more. It doesn't sound like the wound was particularly serious or contaminated otherwise she would have been sent to the ED for toilet and suture at the very least and maybe intravenous antibiotics. So the likelihood is extremely low. On hindsight, there is no mention of any medical complications. So there you go, the answer is no medical malpractice as the patient was not harmed.

Now note here that in the report it states that Madam Koh DID NOT SUBSEQUENTLY GET A TETANUS JAB. Now I am 100% sure this was not on the advice of the health care professionals. It was the typical ngiau Singaporean mentality want to complain and angry and want blood and want dunno what, want nurse to be struck off and never work as nurse kind of complaint and demand to the point the patient would REFUSE proper medical management. Ginfreely, trust me this happens all the time. Well Madam Koh has a right to refuse treatment. But she would have to take responsibility for her choices as well.

Read the rest of the report.

There was an error. Errors occur very frequently everywhere in every industry. In this case I would say it is a serious error but not a particularly dangerous one and one that would not have led to medical malpractice.

Madam Koh just wanted to make a fuss of this. NHGP investigated and found no true lapses in care resulting in malpractice. Madam Koh requested for a refund. They gave it to her but not a full one. Why? Because I am pretty sure this Madam Koh wanted COMPENSATION. Would probably have said things like want to sue lah, bring to court lah, say things like wait I got the typhoid shot then I died how? How can you give me wrong vaccine? SOOOOO DANGEROUS!!!! Wait I die how? I got little kids you know? I die then who take care of them? How you all be doctor and nurse one? She can hire a lawyer go to court and waste all her money. The Medical Malpractice Insurance people know the case is totally defensible. NHGP also knows it.

Sigh. Doctors and nurses are human also. Humans make mistakes. NHG did not cover this up. Kudos to them. They called the patient the next day and offered to give her the right injection and probably spent a good deal of time explaining it all to her. But she goes to the press. And this SENIOR HEALTH CORRESPONDENT has no story better to report on but this type of crap. There are better stories to report on just that she would step on bigger shots' toes.

Singaporeans are 3rd world country people with 3rd world country mentality. The press is also the same.

I think Singaporeans just too angry and unhappy with life too much so every thing don't go right they make a MOUNTAIN of it. And it doesn't help that the more you curse and swear and make a scene the more likely the company or restaurant or whatever will bend over to let you screw their backside even more.

KPKB enough you will at least get refund. Remember that ginfreely.
 

nayr69sg

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

This post has made coming to the forum all worthwhile, and more. I wish someone has explained it like this to the patient and the press. Thanks.

You are welcome. And the so called Salma Khalik Senior Health correspondent. What crap she wrote don't you think? Does nothing but stir emotions and anger.

Absolutely irresponsible reporting.

I know Dr Lew Yii Jen. I worked with him before. He is a good person. I am sure they explained all that to the patient. But the patient still refused the tetanus. I am not surprised. Such patients who are more interested in escalating the issue and magnifying the mistake are very common in Singapore.
 

hugs

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

I think there is a lot of frustration among the citizens and if LHL is an opportunist, this is a good time to show what he is made of. People don't like to see his smile in Facebook nor his selfies showing him happily holidaying with his family. While they are miserable with FT issues, maid issues, job issues, childcare issues, old parents to take care and broken relationships. Salma Khalik was wrong but she was trying to demostrate the frustration.

You are welcome. And the so-called Salma Khalik Senior Health correspondent. What crap she wrote don't you think? Does nothing but stir emotions and anger.

Absolutely irresponsible reporting.

I know Dr Lew Yii Jen. I worked with him before. He is a good person. I am sure they explained all that to the patient. But the patient still refused the tetanus. I am not surprised. Such patients who are more interested in escalating the issue and magnifying the mistake are very common in Singapore.
 

scroobal

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Single most salient point is that the 2 nurses realised the error and the call-back to her. If that did not happen no one will be any wiser including this women. She obviously is making a mountain out of a mole hill and the press reporting style is not helping either. Its no surprise that qualified medical professionals prefer to leave the public service. At least in private practice you can hike the charges to get rid of the patient or use it as 'tolerance expense fee".
 

nayr69sg

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

If you observe carefully you will often find Salma Khalil throwing out these boh liao complaints to fan the flamea of frustration and take away heat from more serious issues eg the AGO findings on that bin centre fiasco.

Doctors are easy targets to whack. Thry never ever counter sue. I am sure there will be more on this from MOH as well.

Make mountain out of molehill with the doctors and nurses as targets. And the people also fall for it. This was one of the reasons I couldn't stand practicing in Singapore. The doctors have no backbone whatsoever and MOH and SMC treats doctors like shit.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

Sigh. You sound just like those PRC China patients who come to me for their annual checkups in Calgary. and then they ask how come never do tumour marker blood tests like CEA, CA125. CA-19? Even PSA we no longer do routinely. No MRI? No CT scan? WHAT? WHY? In China we all do leh.

I tell them first the tumour marker tests are proven to be useless in detecting early cancer. There are many false positives and false negatives. Totally useless. Useful only if you already have cancer and have an elevated tumour marker then we monitor any rise in the tumour marker after treatment. Some people have cancer but tumour markers are not elevated.

MRIs and CT scans also have no evidence to support its use in screening for cancer.

The only two cancers that have evidence based screening programs are colorectal cancer (via Fecal immunochemical Test and colonoscopy) and breast cancer (mammograms) *note it is controversial now whether mammograms truly impact on mortality rates from breast cancer.

So in Canada we only screen for breast cancer in women >50 (40 if the patient wants or has strong family history or other risk factors) and colorectal cancer by FIT test and then colonoscopy if FIT is positive for anyone >50 years old. If there is first degree relative who has colorectal cancer then we screen 10 years before the relative was diagnosed eg father had cancer age 50 then we screen at age 40. If father cancer at age 65 we still start screening at age 50.

Patient will threaten me....then if I get cancer before that then how? Well you would have symptoms. Then we investigate with scans. But it is not screening. Screening is doing tests on patients totally without symptoms. It is a different ball game altogether.

Patient will threaten me again, if I got symptoms already then investigate would it be too late already? Well who knows. Maybe. Maybe not. But there has been no successful screening program for other cancers besides colorectal and breast.

They then go on and on about being afraid of getting cancer, why not do all the scans etc.

So I say, well why don't we do this. We ask the Canada government to fund daily MRIs whole body for every single Canadian. Every night before you go to sleep do an MRI. Have an MRI in every single person's home. Why not? They say yeah why not. That's how dumb they are.

Singaporeans also same mentality lah. It is ridiculous.

No lah I did have symptoms not no symptoms and ask for scans like your PRC patients. But stomach and colon etc symptoms can be many illness like gastric reflux, irritable bowel etc.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

You are welcome. And the so called Salma Khalik Senior Health correspondent. What crap she wrote don't you think? Does nothing but stir emotions and anger.

Absolutely irresponsible reporting.

I know Dr Lew Yii Jen. I worked with him before. He is a good person. I am sure they explained all that to the patient. But the patient still refused the tetanus. I am not surprised. Such patients who are more interested in escalating the issue and magnifying the mistake are very common in Singapore.

Even though cannot claim compensation as no injury or death, I still think that it is not minor mistake for nurses to make wrong jab. It can be fatal mistake. So it's good to highlight such mistake for public awareness and self improvement by the nurses.
 

Ambulance

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

halo auntie lee buay jiu hu choo kia zeng hu choo suey ho jiu hu lang kia si boh

Oh I must have misunderstood then. You were talking about the dogs having anti rabies vaccination certificate etc so considered safe which I am sure my cheapskate mudlander neighbours never do for their dogs. But their dogs were around never died after one week so not rabid OK. I am Singaporean lah just have a stupid house in JB with evil mudlander neighbours.
 

ginfreely

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Re: After SGH, another case of nurses don't follow protocols at CCK polyclinic. Huat

halo auntie lee bguay jiu hu choo kia zeng hu choo suey ho jiu hu lang kia si boh

Knnbccb shameless sinkie traitor dog keep bullying own kind. I never buy hdb in my life, never get a cent of hdb subsidy in my life. I buy condo rent out also to high income expats. High class enough? so shut up your big mouth lying about me non stop KNNBCCB LJ lang with prostitute dog family.
 
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