• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

5 reasons to suspect that Jesus never existed

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
The reason look up is because there is more to look for up there than there is below on the ground. Or at least that's the perception we get when we cast our eyes to the skies, compared to the space between our eyes and the ground below we stand on.

You know, you people seem to have every answer when you turn to your God. Why is it then that your God can't help alleviate poverty and suffering on Earth? Or stop diseases? So it looks like we're mostly on our own when it comes to looking for solutions to our problems on Earth.

For a place close to Singapore that you can view an unpolluted sky and see the stars, try Tioman or other places on the East Coast of Malaysia. There are stretches of beautiful beaches, only a day's drive away.

Cheers!

We know all the answers? Certainly not. But we are instructed to search and seek and we shall find (Matthew 7:7). Thousands upon thousand of scientists are searching for answers to the many unanswered scientific questions. Ironically, sometimes they thought they have discovered the answers but it turns out the 'answers' they have raised more questions. Good example is the discovery of DNA. Even though DNA was discovered over 50 years ago, their understanding of the remarkable complex proteins just a tip of an iceberg.

Can God alleviate poverty? Certainly. There is a saying: There are more than enough to meet the people's needs but there will never have enough to fill the people's greed. Nothing can depart from this truth! It was estimated by some agriculture experts that just the valley of the California alone, farmers and the produce can feed the whole world's population. It is true? I really don't know but we all know that the lack of food supply is caused by human greediness. They convert agriculture land into golf courses, indiscriminate in fishing causing many fish to go into extinction, digging to find gold and all other metals and in the process causing pollution that affect farming and agriculture, industrial wastes are just discarded into the rivers and lakes that are supposed to supply fresh water for irrigations (and drinking as well) and in the process causing the water to be totally contaminated with toxic chemicals, and the list can go on.

So you blame God or blame human for causing poverty?

It is interesting to note also that although the earth is surrounded by thick atmosphere, yet we can still see those million of stars using our naked eyes and with the aid of advance telescopes we can see even greater objects. Everyone who looks into the sky will marvel at the sight and inadvertently will cry out "who created all these". Would you expect to cry out "what causes all these" remarkable cosmic objects.

God bless and wishing you a wonderful starring night, every night!

Psalm23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
There is law and order, is simply for things to function, and orderly if possible. The laws are laid down by the village ancients, when we were pastoral societies, have since evolved into industrial societies and great cities in nations. Bro, this is common throughout the human species, even in places that do not have the influence of your bible, like Japan and some Polynesian societies., It is a human thing to want order. And therefore we enact laws to have order!

Cheers!

Why is there law and order? Where does law and order come from? Doesn't law and order presuppose a lawgiver or an orderer? Who? Again the atheist can be asking the questions but his bias prevents him from getting the correct answers. Again what the Bible said is instructive, the atheist suppress that knowledge of God, the atheist sees intelligent design in the universe but refuses to credit God for it. That's being foolish.
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
There is law and order, is simply for things to function, and orderly if possible. The laws are laid down by the village ancients, when we were pastoral societies, have since evolved into industrial societies and great cities in nations. Bro, this is common throughout the human species, even in places that do not have the influence of your bible, like Japan and some Polynesian societies., It is a human thing to want order. And therefore we enact laws to have order!

Cheers!

Interesting that you have acknowledged that laws were laid by villagers who have no influenced from the Bible. But have you observed one very intriguing thing? Why they need to laid down the laws? Who are the law givers? These villagers who may be living in deep jungles (and in your own words do not have the influence of the Bible) have never attended law schools, yet interestingly enough these villagers whether they are in Africa, Asia, just about anywhere, laid more or less the same rules or laws - killing is not allowed (although some of the native villagers / tribes have selective killing of children in the false belief that they need to sacrifice young children to their gods), stealing in a punishable offence, obedience to parents, authorities is part of their 'legal' system. In fact if you examine these laws, they are very similar to those found in modern legal system. Even though the village chiefs do not know one another and have never attended law schools (for that matter schools in general) and yet they all can come out with more or less the same set of laws for their villagers. If you examine further, these laws were not much different from Mosaic laws like the Ten Commandments.

We have to accept this divine truth: God's law is written into our heart because we are created in His own image.

God Bless
Psalm23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, it does not require complex nor deep reasoning to understand how simple laws were enacted and became part of our early society. The fact that these laws existed throughout humanity goes to show that we all have implemented certain rules in our system to safeguard wealth and property. Your Judeo-Christian concepts just ring it out a little louder, but they existed in all cultures, whether they were touched upon by Jesus Christ or not. You mean to say that the Norse societies which later developed into the the Scandinavian countries remained barbaric? Or that of medieval Japanese remained barbaric? Well, that's always debatable. But it we were to look at animal kingdoms, and observe animals that live in group, you will notice a hierchical and pecking order. Disputes are normally settled by rank, with costly figthts avoided.

Cheers!

Interesting that you have acknowledged that laws were laid by villagers who have no influenced from the Bible. But have you observed one very intriguing thing? Why they need to laid down the laws? Who are the law givers? These villagers who may be living in deep jungles (and in your own words do not have the influence of the Bible) have never attended law schools, yet interestingly enough these villagers whether they are in Africa, Asia, just about anywhere, laid more or less the same rules or laws - killing is not allowed (although some of the native villagers / tribes have selective killing of children in the false belief that they need to sacrifice young children to their gods), stealing in a punishable offence, obedience to parents, authorities is part of their 'legal' system. In fact if you examine these laws, they are very similar to those found in modern legal system. Even though the village chiefs do not know one another and have never attended law schools (for that matter schools in general) and yet they all can come out with more or less the same set of laws for their villagers. If you examine further, these laws were not much different from Mosaic laws like the Ten Commandments.

We have to accept this divine truth: God's law is written into our heart because we are created in His own image.

God Bless
Psalm23
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, it does not require complex nor deep reasoning to understand how simple laws were enacted and became part of our early society. The fact that these laws existed throughout humanity goes to show that we all have implemented certain rules in our system to safeguard wealth and property. Your Judeo-Christian concepts just ring it out a little louder, but they existed in all cultures, whether they were touched upon by Jesus Christ or not. You mean to say that the Norse societies which later developed into the the Scandinavian countries remained barbaric? Or that of medieval Japanese remained barbaric? Well, that's always debatable. But it we were to look at animal kingdoms, and observe animals that live in group, you will notice a hierchical and pecking order. Disputes are normally settled by rank, with costly figthts avoided.

Cheers!

You are describing things as they are, but not explaining WHY they are such. Yes, man enact laws. But why? We enact laws in order to be moral beings? Or we enact laws because we are moral beings? And if we are moral beings, where did that sense of morality come from? You see some kind of order even in the animal kingdom, good observation. But where did that order come from? Atheists believe that order come from disorder, things just get together and work together all by themselves. The universe simply made itself. Hardly logical at all. But once God is denied, any absurd belief the atheist will also swallow. LOL!
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, even Confucsious saw an order that was needed, for things to function systematically. Whether this orderliness arose out of God (or some other Supreme being's doing is a debatable subject. However, it does make sense that we humans appreciate an orderly society, as opposed to one that is disorderly. Why did I mention these sages? The reason is because they all commented about orderliness without referecene to a God. (or Gods), The Greeks had their own empire in the heavens, and these gave the laws of their society to their early civilizations (on top of Mount Olympus).


Cheers!



QUOTE=Frodo;2496459]You are describing things as they are, but not explaining WHY they are such. Yes, man enact laws. But why? We enact laws in order to be moral beings? Or we enact laws because we are moral beings? And if we are moral beings, where did that sense of morality come from? You see some kind of order even in the animal kingdom, good observation. But where did that order come from? Atheists believe that order come from disorder, things just get together and work together all by themselves. The universe simply made itself. Hardly logical at all. But once God is denied, any absurd belief the atheist will also swallow. LOL![/QUOTE]
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro, it does not require complex nor deep reasoning to understand how simple laws were enacted and became part of our early society. The fact that these laws existed throughout humanity goes to show that we all have implemented certain rules in our system to safeguard wealth and property. Your Judeo-Christian concepts just ring it out a little louder, but they existed in all cultures, whether they were touched upon by Jesus Christ or not. You mean to say that the Norse societies which later developed into the the Scandinavian countries remained barbaric? Or that of medieval Japanese remained barbaric? Well, that's always debatable. But it we were to look at animal kingdoms, and observe animals that live in group, you will notice a hierchical and pecking order. Disputes are normally settled by rank, with costly figthts avoided.

Cheers!

Just to further add to our Christian Brother Frodo has said, I think you have digressed the argument to another new topic. No problem if you want to introduce new topic (and as you have said: Christians will always have answers). Yes. We don't have answers. We have good answers.

But let me said again, why should animal kingdom also has their own 'rules of the jungle' to content with? Who provided these 'rules"? Even within the animal kingdom, for example, tigers or lions will only eat when they are hungry and once they are fully fed, they will not hunt anymore. Their next 'meal' is when they are hungry again. In the context, human has set no limit of their hunger as the rich wants to get richer and the richer wants to become the richest. Acquiring of wealth is simply the past time of all human (ALL - sadly includes me!) We are worst than animal in the quest of wealth (and food).

I am not supportive of what the present President of Philippines is doing, encouraging killing before they are found guilty by the court of law, but I am with him that unless we take a very, very strong position to hunt down die-hard drug lords, the situation will never improve and the people of Philippine will all become drug addicts. This is the fight which the President of Philippines is fighting amid the wrong approach I must add. Just to borrow your words: its a costly fight.

Take out all the written laws as legislated by the parliaments around the world, we will be very barbaric almost instanteously. What kept us from being barbaric is that we know that the law will catch up with us if we do something silly. We will be fine, jailed, caned or hung. We just cannot escape.

Ask yourself: Who is the final law giver? Parliament? MPs? kings? sultans? No! God! The written laws that we have in our legal system is simply a written transcription of God's law which is written in the heart of all human. The written law that we have (and some are ridiculous) is an expanded version of God's law. There is nothing really new when you compare those million written laws with the Ten Commandments.

God Bless
Psalm23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
For me, the one I finally need to answer to is - myself. You guys have all your answers spoonfed from the bible. Me. I get them elsewhere. Have fun!

Cheers!


..............................
Take out all the written laws as legislated by the parliaments around the world, we will be very barbaric almost instanteously. What kept us from being barbaric is that we know that the law will catch up with us if we do something silly. We will be fine, jailed, caned or hung. We just cannot escape.

............................Ask yourself: Who is the final law giver? Parliament? MPs? kings? sultans? No! God! The written laws that we have in our legal system is simply a written transcription of God's law which is written in the heart of all human. The written law that we have (and some are ridiculous) is an expanded version of God's law. There is nothing really new when you compare those million written laws with the Ten Commandments.

God Bless
Psalm23
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
For me, the one I finally need to answer to is - myself. You guys have all your answers spoonfed from the bible. Me. I get them elsewhere. Have fun!

Cheers!

Yes...you can label Christians as being spoonfed from the Bible (but only the true born-again Christians). At least we have a common source of reference. We are consistent, we are faithful and more importantly, we believe the Bible is truly an inspired Word of God which is same yesterday, today and forever more: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Mathew 24:35).

Interesting to note that even non-Christians use terms that are taught or written in the Bible to convey their messages such as when someone is trying to discredit another person's information or news, he will say: you treat this news like it's a gospel truth, impliedly that the historical records and the events reported in the Bible is true. Other commonly quoted Bible verses use by people (Christians and non-Christians) to convey their messages like: "the blind leading the blind, Matthew 15:13014)", "can a leopard change his spots (Jeremiah 13:23)", "cast the first stone (John 8:7)", "For everything there is a season (Ecclessiastes 3)", "good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37)", "let there be light (Genesis 1)", "the love of money is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10)".

One does not need to read the Bible to able to quote them because they are so often spoken that in fact many do not know that the original source of these phases are from the Bible.

So, brother Agoraphobic, I admit, I am spoonfed by the Bible (and so do many others, including non-Christians inadvertently). How about you? What are you being spoonfed with? What sources? Straits Times News, New Time News, Asian Wall Street?

We are blessed because there are countless great scientists both from the past and the present are also being spoonfed by the Bible. If men and women of that calibre do believe them, shouldn't this book, Bible, is extra-ordinary?

God Bless
Psalm23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
To you, and many, the bible has been taken to be the truth because it is and earliest of ancient texts. However, if we dug deeper, and look at earlier civilizations, they too have their scripts and texts and works of wisdom which would then be debatable as to which were "truer", the bible, or these. There are earlier civlizations existing in the Indus, plains (Mahendjo Daro), or even the fabled Atantis, that was described by Plato.

I wasn't spoonfed by any publication, I just read and read from as many as I could lay my hands on. During primary school, my dad got us to go to the public librairies often and I remember glossing over pages and pages of National Geographic, Time/Life magazines. From these, there were a myriad of articles on natural history, biology, geography, more encompassing than anything school texts books could provide. I also liked to watch documentaries right till today. Of course, the contents have increased and are more varied now. I like to watch stuff on Taiwan, like their aquaculture and oyster farming. Some TV programs, I watch out of entertainment, and fun, like the Finding Bigfoot series. I hope the eventually catch one, just to prove it, what they to with it after that, will let orgaizations like PETA sort it out.

Cheers!



........................., we believe the Bible is truly an inspired Word of God which is same yesterday, today and forever more: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Mathew 24:35).
.....................................
So, brother Agoraphobic, I admit, I am spoonfed by the Bible (and so do many others, including non-Christians inadvertently). How about you? What are you being spoonfed with? What sources? Straits Times News, New Time News, Asian Wall Street?.........................
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
To you, and many, the bible has been taken to be the truth because it is and earliest of ancient texts. However, if we dug deeper, and look at earlier civilizations, they too have their scripts and texts and works of wisdom which would then be debatable as to which were "truer", the bible, or these. There are earlier civlizations existing in the Indus, plains (Mahendjo Daro), or even the fabled Atantis, that was described by Plato.

I wasn't spoonfed by any publication, I just read and read from as many as I could lay my hands on. During primary school, my dad got us to go to the public librairies often and I remember glossing over pages and pages of National Geographic, Time/Life magazines. From these, there were a myriad of articles on natural history, biology, geography, more encompassing than anything school texts books could provide. I also liked to watch documentaries right till today. Of course, the contents have increased and are more varied now. I like to watch stuff on Taiwan, like their aquaculture and oyster farming. Some TV programs, I watch out of entertainment, and fun, like the Finding Bigfoot series. I hope the eventually catch one, just to prove it, what they to with it after that, will let orgaizations like PETA sort it out.

Cheers!


the bible has been taken to be the truth because it is and earliest of ancient texts....


Actually it is quite naïve to say something is true just because it is old (or for that matter, just because is it new). Bible is no exception. I personally don't bother whether the text in the Bible is 3,000 years old or 300 years old. What made it true (or false) should not be determined by the age of the information or the objects. Rather, it is the evidence that surrounds those claims that you make and there are many ways to look at it. But the most important is your own experience, your own understanding and more importantly your own conviction, especially when it comes to the topics on human moral, justice and spiritual matters.

Even religion was really a big topic in ancient China two or three thousand years ago, the Chinese are already strong believer in the spiritual thing. Take for example, one of the most ruthless rules, the First Emperor of China, he was so afraid of death and he believed that their is life after-death, he ordered the making of thousands of clay soldiers to protect him. Where he got this knowledge from? Why he believed that there is life after death? There was very little books written on this subject and Buddhism, Taosim were not really practiced (but people, including emperors) just worship an 'heavenly king' and they did not have great idea of what this 'heavenly king" was.

We (meaning Bible-believing Christians) are blessed because we have relevation from God by His word, the Bible, we know exactly who God is, and more importantly, the nature of our relationship with God.

God bless
Psalm23
 
Top