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5 reasons to suspect that Jesus never existed

drifteri

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Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.
For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealotby Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became Godby Bart Ehrman.
But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received.
The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All.For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.
Fitzgerald is an atheist speaker and writer, popular with secular students and community groups. The internet phenom, Zeitgeist the Movie introduced millions to some of the mythic roots of Christianity. But Zeitgeist and similar works contain known errors and oversimplifications that undermine their credibility. Fitzgerald seeks to correct that by giving young people interesting, accessible information that is grounded in accountable scholarship.
More academic arguments in support of the Jesus Myth theory can be found in the writings of Richard Carrier and Robert Price. Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history uses the tools of his trade to show, among other things, how Christianity might have gotten off the ground without a miracle. Price, by contrast, writes from the perspective of a theologian whose biblical scholarship ultimately formed the basis for his skepticism. It is interesting to note that some of the harshest debunkers of fringe Jesus myth theories like those from Zeitgeist or Joseph Atwill (who tries to argue that the Romans invented Jesus) are from serious Mythicists like Fitzgerald, Carrier and Price.
The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:


1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)


2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!


Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel — the good news — of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus’ historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”


3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .


4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.


The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.


5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer listassembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”
For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:
Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.
In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgeraldargues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.
We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.

This article originally appeared on AlterNet. :wink:
 

Agoraphobic

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Just stumbled across the following article while browsing the web at office. More support for the "Jesus was a hoax" theory!

Cheers!

http://www.seeker.com/scholar-claims-jesus-was-a-roman-hoax-1767943845.html
HISTORY
Oct 11, 2013 07:04 PM ET
Scholar Claims Jesus Was a Roman Hoax
A historian claims to have found evidence that the story of Jesus was a hoax based on a Roman emperor's biography. Continue reading →

A historical scholar claims to have found evidence proving that the story of Jesus as described in the New Testament is a fiction, and that historical claims about Jesus were actually created by Roman aristocrats to control the poor.
According to a news story in The Independent:
“Joseph Atwill, who is the author of a book entitled ‘Caesar’s Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus’, asserts that Christianity did not begin as a religion, but was actually a sophisticated government propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire.”
Atwill’s take on Jesus is of course not new. In 1844 Karl Marx famously declared religion as the opiate of the masses. History is filled with skeptics, freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and other doubters who have questioned religious doctrine and dogma.
PHOTOS: Ancient Tomb Holds Jesus Mystery
Atwill’s claims are based on what he described as important and revealing parallels between a first-person account of first-century Judea (an ancient Roman province now part of Israel and Palestine) and the New Testament.
“What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of (Emperor) Titus Flavius as described by Josephus,” Atwill wrote in a blog on his web site.
Atwill believes that the story of Jesus was actually copied and created from the biography of the Roman emperor.
Evidence for a Historical Jesus?
While Atwill’s thesis is intriguing, there are reasons to be skeptical.
“The reality is we are unlikely ever to know the ‘facts’ about Jesus,” says Ronald A. Lindsay, a Senior Research Fellow at the Center for Inquiry, a non-profit educational organization. Lindsay authored an essay on the evidence for Jesus in the book “Sources of the Jesus Tradition.”
“There are too many different stories about him, all of which have some serious credibility problems and which are inconsistent with one another,” Lindsay told Discovery News. “For the objective historian, he will always remain a shadowy figure, with little substantive biographical content. On the one hand, we have many who will take things on faith, accepting some subset of the stories as unquestionably true. On the other hand, there are those who insist that Jesus is an invented figure, a myth or a hoax. I think both of these extremes are almost equally implausible.”
Biblical scholars, as well as lay Christians, have long sought hard evidence of events and miracles described in the Bible, ranging from Noah’s Ark to the Shroud of Turin, with little success. New claims about proof of Jesus surface every few years.
People Claiming to Be Jesus
For example, in 2003 a relics dealer claimed to have discovered a limestone mortuary box that held the remains of Jesus’ brother. The inscription read, “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”
The find made international news and spawned several documentaries, including one titled “The Lost Tomb of Jesus,” which aired on the Discovery Channel. Further investigation by the Israeli Antiquities Authority concluded that though the ossuary box was authentic, the inscription on it had been faked.
And just last year an historian at Harvard Divinity School claimed to have found documentary evidence in the form of a fragment of Coptic writing on papyrus that Jesus was married; a later analysis by Biblical scholars suggested the writing was hoaxed.
Over and over, these “discoveries” typically turn out to be far more hype than fact and are trotted out as teasers to promote a new book, TV series or film. And, of course, Dan Brown made millions from his own fictional, conspiracy-laden versions of Jesus’ story — though his premise is claimed by a few writers to be based on fact.
Though Atwill’s claims have yet to be verified by other historians, whatever their consensus it will certainly not resolve the matter. The likelihood that any sort of real, definitive proof about Jesus will suddenly be discovered two millennia after he died (assuming, of course, that he existed) is vanishingly remote. Then again, that’s why religions are based on faith.
 

Psalm23

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You have just reveal a great mystery and miracle! It is the great mystery and miracle because there are more books written on Jesus and the Bible (which recorded the life history of Jesus) than any other subjects and accordingly to you, Jesus never existed. Isn't this a great miracle. How could there be so many books written about some who has never exited! This could be the greatest miracle on earth.

So when you believe in Jesus' existence, you are believing a miracle, a real miracle!

God Bless
Psalm 23
 

Agoraphobic

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It's not a miracle. It is a story. A sotry that was so well told, the whole world (almost) believed it. It has been told so many times, in so many languages, it is the perfect story of a divine act, that was so apt for society, that people just must have it. The story fills a void, a longing for the existence of a spiritual leader, that is so needed, it might as well be true. That so many people want to believe it, they have made it true. It has been told in poetry, in song, in acts, in movies, to people of all ages, so many times over and over again, that they believe it actually happened. But whether it did or not, does not matter, the person in the story lives - that's what is important, in our lives, the belief in his persona is more important than the physical being itself.

Cheers!

You have just reveal a great mystery and miracle! It is the great mystery and miracle because there are more books written on Jesus and the Bible (which recorded the life history of Jesus) than any other subjects and accordingly to you, Jesus never existed. Isn't this a great miracle. How could there be so many books written about some who has never exited! This could be the greatest miracle on earth.

So when you believe in Jesus' existence, you are believing a miracle, a real miracle!

God Bless
Psalm 23
 

Frodo

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These 5 suspicious reasons to suspect Jesus never existed is easily refuted by ONE undisputable fact.

Ask yourself this question, what date is it today? 1 August 2016.

Why is it 2016? And not 1 August 14,700,000,000? (assuming evolution is correct about the age of the universe. LOL!)

Seriously...anyone who question the historicity of Jesus Christ should have his own sanity questioned. LOL!
 

Psalm23

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It's not a miracle. It is a story. A sotry that was so well told, the whole world (almost) believed it. It has been told so many times, in so many languages, it is the perfect story of a divine act, that was so apt for society, that people just must have it. The story fills a void, a longing for the existence of a spiritual leader, that is so needed, it might as well be true. That so many people want to believe it, they have made it true. It has been told in poetry, in song, in acts, in movies, to people of all ages, so many times over and over again, that they believe it actually happened. But whether it did or not, does not matter, the person in the story lives - that's what is important, in our lives, the belief in his persona is more important than the physical being itself.

Cheers!

I disagree with in many things, but I am certainly in full agreement with your state: "it is the perfect story of a divine act" Whether you call it history or story, it is 'divinely' written and only God can write such convincing story (history?)

Again, why human is void of spiritual needs? It shouldn't be food, love, shelter? This spiritual needs cannot be explained even by great philosophers or scientists. We can debate about it but we can never come to a firm conclusion. We can, however, imply that the spiritual need arises because we are longing for our Creator. Just like a orphan who has lost his or her parents will always long to see his/her parents. Human, spiritually-speaking, we are all long to meet our Spiritual Father and unless this is met, there is always a void that something really is missing.

Read Psalm 23. This Psalm 23 speaks of the void of human and only God can fill our void because God is our Shepherd and nothing can satisfy us but only God will and can.

God Bless
Psalm 23
 

Agoraphobic

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We feel this way because we've been indoctrinated by Judeo-Christian culture, which Hollywood plays a big part. In cultures that existed before they were exposed to Christianity, they had a different world view. Hindus for one, and so were the North Amercian Indians, they was no Jesus Christ to shape their thought, so their perception of spirituality was different from those who have been influenced by Christianity. Our Eastern philosophy too had different explanations, for things that exist. They didn't need Christianity. And nothing was missing from their lives!

Cheers!

...........................Again, why human is void of spiritual needs? It shouldn't be food, love, shelter? This spiritual needs cannot be explained even by great philosophers or scientists. We can debate about it but we can never come to a firm conclusion. We can, however, imply that the spiritual need arises because we are longing for our Creator. Just like a orphan who has lost his or her parents will always long to see his/her parents. Human, spiritually-speaking, we are all long to meet our Spiritual Father and unless this is met, there is always a void that something really is missing.

Read Psalm 23. This Psalm 23 speaks of the void of human and only God can fill our void because God is our Shepherd and nothing can satisfy us but only God will and can.

God Bless
Psalm 23
 

Psalm23

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Loyal
We feel this way because we've been indoctrinated by Judeo-Christian culture, which Hollywood plays a big part. In cultures that existed before they were exposed to Christianity, they had a different world view. Hindus for one, and so were the North Amercian Indians, they was no Jesus Christ to shape their thought, so their perception of spirituality was different from those who have been influenced by Christianity. Our Eastern philosophy too had different explanations, for things that exist. They didn't need Christianity. And nothing was missing from their lives!
Cheers!

How do you know nothing was missing from their lives? In fact, people of the East (which I hope you are referring to the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Thais etc) are the most God-seeking people! Taiwan, for example, has the most Buddhist temples per capita in the whole of Asia, more than Thailand. And nothing missing in their lives? You must be joking!

Agee, everyone's feeling and sentiment about spirituality is different (as you have agreed in your message). We all acknowledge there differences exist. But the point is, regardless of the spiritual differences, we are spiritual beings and each of us has different way to express our spiritualism. Why? Because we are all created in the image of God and God is spiritual being.

Buddhism existed many years before the birth of Jesus and even though, ancient Chinese were already worshipping to some spiritual beings. Interestingly enough, before the religion of Taoism ancient Chinese just simply worshipped Heaven and not Buddha, not even participating in ancestor-worship which was 'popularised' by Confucian. Ancestor's worship sprang out of Confucian's teaching.

I remember of a story told to me by one of my colleagues. He was not a Christian neither did he believe in the existence of God. He was truly an atheist. Occasionally, he did make fun of Christians. One day he was sent to a country in South America and there was a big earthquake. Everyone was hiding the tables. He told us that at that instance he has never so hard in his live!

Interesting isn't it. Why a atheist who makes fun of Christians or those who believe in God makes fun of them and still has to call on a god to help him? Why when we all are confronted with situations that seemingly we have no control, we will call to God to help. Perhaps not you. But many people do. Why? Because consciously or unconsciously, we all are longing for a god. And as been told in the Bible "Seek and you shall find". Seeking and finding our Creator is just simply the very nature of human and until we have found our true God, there is always something missing in us.

God bless
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
We feel this way because we've been indoctrinated by Judeo-Christian culture, which Hollywood plays a big part. In cultures that existed before they were exposed to Christianity, they had a different world view. Hindus for one, and so were the North Amercian Indians, they was no Jesus Christ to shape their thought, so their perception of spirituality was different from those who have been influenced by Christianity. Our Eastern philosophy too had different explanations, for things that exist. They didn't need Christianity. And nothing was missing from their lives!
Cheers!

How do you know nothing was missing from their lives? In fact, people of the East (which I hope you are referring to the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Thais etc) are the most God-seeking people! Taiwan, for example, has the most Buddhist temples per capita in the whole of Asia, more than Thailand. And nothing missing in their lives? You must be joking!

Agee, everyone's feeling and sentiment about spirituality is different (as you have agreed in your message). We all acknowledge there differences exist. But the point is, regardless of the spiritual differences, we are spiritual beings and each of us has different way to express our spiritualism. Why? Because we are all created in the image of God and God is spiritual being.

Buddhism existed many years before the birth of Jesus and even though, ancient Chinese were already worshipping to some spiritual beings. Interestingly enough, before the religion of Taoism ancient Chinese just simply worshipped Heaven and not Buddha, not even participating in ancestor-worship which was 'popularised' by Confucian. Ancestor's worship sprang out of Confucian's teaching.

I remember of a story told to me by one of my colleagues. He was not a Christian neither did he believe in the existence of God. He was truly an atheist. Occasionally, he did make fun of Christians. One day he was sent to a country in South America and there was a big earthquake. Everyone was hiding the tables. He told us that at that instance he has never so hard in his live!

Interesting isn't it. Why would an atheist who makes fun of Christians or make fun of those who believe in God and still has to call on a god to help him? Why when we all are confronted with situations that seemingly we have no control, we will call to God to help. Perhaps not you. But many people do. Why? Because consciously or unconsciously, we all are longing for a god. And as been told in the Bible "Seek and you shall find". Seeking and finding our Creator is just simply the very nature of human and until we have found our true God, there is always something missing in us.

God bless
Psalm 23
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
We feel this way because we've been indoctrinated by Judeo-Christian culture, which Hollywood plays a big part. In cultures that existed before they were exposed to Christianity, they had a different world view. Hindus for one, and so were the North Amercian Indians, they was no Jesus Christ to shape their thought, so their perception of spirituality was different from those who have been influenced by Christianity. Our Eastern philosophy too had different explanations, for things that exist. They didn't need Christianity. And nothing was missing from their lives!

Cheers!

The fact that people are inherently religious points to a God-shaped vacuum that needs to be filled. Even atheists are not spared of that, they just deceive themselves into thinking there is no God. Most common among religions is the concept of sin and need for atonement via blood sacrifice. All these common things hark back to the Genesis account of creation and the fall.
 

Agoraphobic

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I say there was nothing missing from their lives, because they didn't need anything that they didn't already have. That was why the Chinese did not want to trade with the Brits prior to the Opium War.

The yearning for God, or Creator (whatever you choose to call it) is inherent in our species ever since our ancestors looked up the sky, saw the stars and wondered what they were. There were many unexplained things that needed answers, so the search began. Postulating was what came first, than reasoning, and consipiring to make them match, that was how the concept of God came around. But that was thousands of years ago, today, we have newer theories. Although we still have not arrived at a conclusive answer. One things for sure, all the established religions of the Earth are not totally accurate, from historical records, there is evidence of certain aspects from their past being shown, but mostly, they are spoken knowledge handed down through generations of priests or elders. I'd say most are myths. Some are outright superstition and folklore. Some are even political fabrications.

Cheers!

How do you know nothing was missing from their lives? In fact, people of the East (which I hope you are referring to the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Thais etc) are the most God-seeking people! Taiwan, for example, has the most Buddhist temples per capita in the whole of Asia, more than Thailand. And nothing missing in their lives? You must be joking!

Agee, everyone's feeling and sentiment about spirituality is different (as you have agreed in your message). We all acknowledge there differences exist. But the point is, regardless of the spiritual differences, we are spiritual beings and each of us has different way to express our spiritualism. Why? Because we are all created in the image of God and God is spiritual being.

Buddhism existed many years before the birth of Jesus and even though, ancient Chinese were already worshipping to some spiritual beings. Interestingly enough, before the religion of Taoism ancient Chinese just simply worshipped Heaven and not Buddha, not even participating in ancestor-worship which was 'popularised' by Confucian. Ancestor's worship sprang out of Confucian's teaching.

I remember of a story told to me by one of my colleagues. He was not a Christian neither did he believe in the existence of God. He was truly an atheist. Occasionally, he did make fun of Christians. One day he was sent to a country in South America and there was a big earthquake. Everyone was hiding the tables. He told us that at that instance he has never so hard in his live!

Interesting isn't it. Why would an atheist who makes fun of Christians or make fun of those who believe in God and still has to call on a god to help him? Why when we all are confronted with situations that seemingly we have no control, we will call to God to help. Perhaps not you. But many people do. Why? Because consciously or unconsciously, we all are longing for a god. And as been told in the Bible "Seek and you shall find". Seeking and finding our Creator is just simply the very nature of human and until we have found our true God, there is always something missing in us.

God bless
Psalm 23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
For most of our ancient past, we grew up with superstition, which paved the way for religion to fill its place. It has been ingrained in our minds that there is going to be justice (or retribution) in our after lives, which is why we seek forgiveness from the divine beings while we still can. But there are people who have grown up without this sense and do not feel this at all. Just look at societies in Communist countries. If your Christian god is so great, why are there other religions that pose a threat to 'good' Christians in the world today?

Cheers!

The fact that people are inherently religious points to a God-shaped vacuum that needs to be filled. Even atheists are not spared of that, they just deceive themselves into thinking there is no God. Most common among religions is the concept of sin and need for atonement via blood sacrifice. All these common things hark back to the Genesis account of creation and the fall.
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
I say there was nothing missing from their lives, because they didn't need anything that they didn't already have. That was why the Chinese did not want to trade with the Brits prior to the Opium War.

The yearning for God, or Creator (whatever you choose to call it) is inherent in our species ever since our ancestors looked up the sky, saw the stars and wondered what they were. There were many unexplained things that needed answers, so the search began. Postulating was what came first, than reasoning, and consipiring to make them match, that was how the concept of God came around. But that was thousands of years ago, today, we have newer theories. Although we still have not arrived at a conclusive answer. One things for sure, all the established religions of the Earth are not totally accurate, from historical records, there is evidence of certain aspects from their past being shown, but mostly, they are spoken knowledge handed down through generations of priests or elders. I'd say most are myths. Some are outright superstition and folklore. Some are even political fabrications.

Cheers!
since our ancestors looked up the sky, saw the stars

Why would they looked up the sky and not looked down the ground? Yes...they have to look up the sky because we read in the Bible: Heaven declares the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). Any one who is honest enough and looks up the sky will honestly confess that God exists, That million of galaxies with billions of stars cannot just come out from nowhere. We know that even the smallest and the ugliest lantern has to be made by a human let stars!

We are not as fortunate as some countries that have absolute clear sky at night. I have not experienced myself but friends who have been to deserts will tell you how beautiful the sky is at night. Countless bright stars appear all over the sky! You just can't help it but to acknowledge that indeed Someone has created them. God has programmed into human heart to look up the sky to see His glory and not to look at those tall skyscapers.

God bless
Psalm23
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
The reason look up is because there is more to look for up there than there is below on the ground. Or at least that's the perception we get when we cast our eyes to the skies, compared to the space between our eyes and the ground below we stand on.

You know, you people seem to have every answer when you turn to your God. Why is it then that your God can't help alleviate poverty and suffering on Earth? Or stop diseases? So it looks like we're mostly on our own when it comes to looking for solutions to our problems on Earth.

For a place close to Singapore that you can view an unpolluted sky and see the stars, try Tioman or other places on the East Coast of Malaysia. There are stretches of beautiful beaches, only a day's drive away.

Cheers!

since our ancestors looked up the sky, saw the stars

Why would they looked up the sky and not looked down the ground? Yes...they have to look up the sky because we read in the Bible: Heaven declares the glory of God (Psalm 19:1). Any one who is honest enough and looks up the sky will honestly confess that God exists, That million of galaxies with billions of stars cannot just come out from nowhere. We know that even the smallest and the ugliest lantern has to be made by a human let stars!

We are not as fortunate as some countries that have absolute clear sky at night. I have not experienced myself but friends who have been to deserts will tell you how beautiful the sky is at night. Countless bright stars appear all over the sky! You just can't help it but to acknowledge that indeed Someone has created them. God has programmed into human heart to look up the sky to see His glory and not to look at those tall skyscapers.

God bless
Psalm23
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
For most of our ancient past, we grew up with superstition, which paved the way for religion to fill its place. It has been ingrained in our minds that there is going to be justice (or retribution) in our after lives, which is why we seek forgiveness from the divine beings while we still can. But there are people who have grown up without this sense and do not feel this at all. Just look at societies in Communist countries. If your Christian god is so great, why are there other religions that pose a threat to 'good' Christians in the world today?

Cheers!

Questions the atheist need to answer but cannot answer "yes" because it will point to God:

Are we moral beings to begin with? Is morality hardwired into us? By nature are we moral beings?
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
The reason look up is because there is more to look for up there than there is below on the ground. Or at least that's the perception we get when we cast our eyes to the skies, compared to the space between our eyes and the ground below we stand on.

You know, you people seem to have every answer when you turn to your God. Why is it then that your God can't help alleviate poverty and suffering on Earth? Or stop diseases? So it looks like we're mostly on our own when it comes to looking for solutions to our problems on Earth.

For a place close to Singapore that you can view an unpolluted sky and see the stars, try Tioman or other places on the East Coast of Malaysia. There are stretches of beautiful beaches, only a day's drive away.

Cheers!

The irony is that you looked at creation but did not "see" the Creator. Or rather you did see the Creator but suppress that knowledge, as Paul said in the first chapter of the book of Romans.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Er, I am not concerned by what Paul (or whoever) said, but just that looking up is the natural direction we look when we search.

Cheers!

The irony is that you looked at creation but did not "see" the Creator. Or rather you did see the Creator but suppress that knowledge, as Paul said in the first chapter of the book of Romans.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes. We live in a society or community where there is a certain amount of law and order. For things to function smoothly. Anything we do to disrupt this threatens to ruin the society we live in, and the authorities will clamp down on it. You can call this morality, but its there in all all societies. I do not know if we can attribute this to God or not. But even in ancient civilizations, there were some norms and practices much akin to what we term as morality today.

Cheer!

Questions the atheist need to answer but cannot answer "yes" because it will point to God:

Are we moral beings to begin with? Is morality hardwired into us? By nature are we moral beings?
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
Er, I am not concerned by what Paul (or whoever) said, but just that looking up is the natural direction we look when we search.

Cheers!

But why is that considered natural? What are we searching for? Are we searching in the right place? Asking the right questions? Maybe we need to be honest with ourselves, asking the right questions and searching for answers is one thing, but are we already deciding what we want to accept as answers? For the atheist he has already decided that "no God allowed" would be the criteria by which he concludes. He has already prejudged or prejudiced what he will accept as answers, even if his answers make no sense.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes. We live in a society or community where there is a certain amount of law and order. For things to function smoothly. Anything we do to disrupt this threatens to ruin the society we live in, and the authorities will clamp down on it. You can call this morality, but its there in all all societies. I do not know if we can attribute this to God or not. But even in ancient civilizations, there were some norms and practices much akin to what we term as morality today.

Cheer!

Why is there law and order? Where does law and order come from? Doesn't law and order presuppose a lawgiver or an orderer? Who? Again the atheist can be asking the questions but his bias prevents him from getting the correct answers. Again what the Bible said is instructive, the atheist suppress that knowledge of God, the atheist sees intelligent design in the universe but refuses to credit God for it. That's being foolish.
 
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