Chitchat UN rules against China on South China Sea

How many of these commentators have actually had the chance to read the entire judgment - just relying verbatim on the press release summary and whatever is reported by the press.

The actual judgment has been inaccessible since yesterday 1700hrs SG time on the PCA website:


https://pcacases.com/web/allcases/

PCA Case No. 2013-19: The Republic of Philippines v. The People's Republic of China

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As any law school student is taught, you cannot read just the summary to have a proper grasp of the dicta in the judgment or let alone why any dissenting views were disregarded.

gatehousethetinkertailor said:

How many of these commentators have actually had the chance to read the entire judgment - just relying verbatim on the press release summary and whatever is reported by the press.

The actual judgment has been inaccessible since yesterday 1700hrs SG time on the PCA website:


https://pcacases.com/web/allcases/

PCA Case No. 2013-19: The Republic of Philippines v. The People's Republic of China

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, [email protected] and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
Additionally, a 500 Internal Server Error error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

As any law school student is taught, you cannot read just the summary to have a proper grasp of the dicta in the judgment or let alone why any dissenting views were disregarded.

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Don't waste your time, kangaroo court, kangaroo bias judges, They are like commodities with printed money you can buy them over the counter/selves.

USA doesnt subject itself to UN arbitration.

USA and Russia can veto UN Security's votes.

USA and Russia have rejected UN Judgements and Arbitrations

So does USA expect China to submit to PAC when USA doesnt?

USA is instigating Philippines to oppose China.

ASEAN shd not be silly to be USA's doggie

scroobal said:

You got to laugh at the statement below



China ratified INCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Seas) in 1996 and now pretending to be safeguarding the letter and spirit of UNCLOS. At least come out with some logic for their claims. They got away with Tibet because the World post WWII was still coming together but not this time.

One thing you will see is their life long habit of making numerous long statements and and long winded speeches. Someone should tell them that quality and not quantity is going to carry the day.

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It's no laughing matter! I for one thinks that the USA as usual, is muddying and fishing in troubled waters! Besides China, many other countries including the USA have chosen not to comply or abide by any decision that went against their national interests. There is no black or white in international politics or even UNCLOS itself; just lots of grey areas. If we must laugh at China, we should lol at other countries esp. the USA for pretending to keep the sea lanes open for the 5 trillion dollars of trade passing through these waters( they have always been open).Hence the highly-provocative freedom of navigation passages by American planes and warships. Ulterior motives lurked behind those grandiose and self-righteous objectives of re-balancing the power in Asia; in whose favour, one wonders! Not very funny!

Expect a Dongfeng to sink a US Ship and a RSN ship soon

KuanTi01 said:

It's no laughing matter! I for one thinks that the USA as usual, is muddying and fishing in troubled waters! Besides China, many other countries including the USA have chosen not to comply or abide by any decision that went against their national interests. There is no black or white in international politics or even UNCLOS itself; just lots of grey areas. If we must laugh at China, we should lol at other countries esp. the USA for pretending to keep the sea lanes open for the 5 trillion dollars of trade passing through these waters( they have always been open).Hence the highly-provocative freedom of navigation passages by American planes and warships. Ulterior motives lurked behind those grandiose and self-righteous objectives of re-balancing the power in Asia; in whose favour, one wonders! Not very funny!

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USA is doing all these for its own agenda. Philippines and other ASEAN countries must have wisdom.

The Chilcot Inquiry condemning the US led attack on Iraq as illegal and criminal. Blair comes out of this looking like a fool.

Will LHL be conned by US propaganda and fooled by US agenda?

ckmpd said:

USA is doing all these for its own agenda. Philippines and other ASEAN countries must have wisdom.

The Chilcot Inquiry condemning the US led attack on Iraq as illegal and criminal. Blair comes out of this looking like a fool.

Will LHL be conned by US propaganda and fooled by US agenda?

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US had no permanent friends, only interest. Henry Kissinger

Count168 said:

US had no permanent friends, only interest. Henry Kissinger

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i thought that was Singapore's stand too. pap must be sucking up to Kissinger

Washingston, the war criminal capital of the world. Send war criminal to the Hague Court. America don't live to creates war. America creates war to live. America is not torn apart by war. It's held together by war. United States of Good Terrorists committed countless genocides and grand theft want to turned asia into cemetery of their dreams. United States of Demagogue.

Believe there is no better recalcitrant than the US. They have repeatedly refused to sign treaties where the vast majority have signed. They have for years on multiple occasions refused to pay their UN dues to force the UN to bend their way when funds start to run out for funding the UN functions.

This is not the US making a ruling. This is the Hague whose bench is made up for recognised judges from a number of countries. China instead of engaging their best minds and paying for the best legal talent to present their case refused to turn up and made it clear they will not recognise the findings even before the court even sat. Its like a kid throwing a tantrum.

They never anticipated that using their naval vessels to forcibly take possession of the shoal would force the Philippines to go to the UN. It was a bad move and it back fired.

The World knows full well that it cannot enforce the judgement where it China is concerned. It was also certainly not a pyrrhic victory but it more of an attempt to shame the bully in China to behave towards the smaller nations in South East Asia and not throw their weight.

KuanTi01 said:

It's no laughing matter! I for one thinks that the USA as usual, is muddying and fishing in troubled waters! Besides China, many other countries including the USA have chosen not to comply or abide by any decision that went against their national interests. There is no black or white in international politics or even UNCLOS itself; just lots of grey areas. If we must laugh at China, we should lol at other countries esp. the USA for pretending to keep the sea lanes open for the 5 trillion dollars of trade passing through these waters( they have always been open).Hence the highly-provocative freedom of navigation passages by American planes and warships. Ulterior motives lurked behind those grandiose and self-righteous objectives of re-balancing the power in Asia; in whose favour, one wonders! Not very funny!

Click to expand...

KuanTi01 said:

It's no laughing matter! I for one thinks that the USA as usual, is muddying and fishing in troubled waters! Besides China, many other countries including the USA have chosen not to comply or abide by any decision that went against their national interests. There is no black or white in international politics or even UNCLOS itself; just lots of grey areas. If we must laugh at China, we should lol at other countries esp. the USA for pretending to keep the sea lanes open for the 5 trillion dollars of trade passing through these waters( they have always been open).Hence the highly-provocative freedom of navigation passages by American planes and warships. Ulterior motives lurked behind those grandiose and self-righteous objectives of re-balancing the power in Asia; in whose favour, one wonders! Not very funny!

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The world has been tolerating US insane political ambitious/system/foreign policy.

scroobal said:

Believe there is no better recalcitrant than the US. They have repeatedly refused to sign treaties where the vast majority have signed. They have for years on multiple occasions refused to pay their UN dues to force the UN to bend their way when funds start to run out for funding the UN functions.

This is not the US making a ruling. This is the Hague whose bench is made up for recognised judges from a number of countries. China instead of engaging their best minds and paying for the best legal talent to present their case refused to turn up and made it clear they will not recognise the findings even before the court even sat. Its like a kid throwing a tantrum.

They never anticipated that using their naval vessels to forcibly take possession of the shoal would force the Philippines to go to the UN. It was a bad move and it back fired.

The World knows full well that it cannot enforce the judgement where it China is concerned. It was also certainly not a pyrrhic victory but it more of an attempt to shame the bully in China to behave towards the smaller nations in South East Asia and not throw their weight.

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. No major power will subject themselves to any form of higher jurisdiction including USA. It a matter of fact USA did the same when Nicaragua sued USA in ICJ. Like china, the American refused to attend and as a result Nicaragua won but the ruling was ignored by USA.

international court is only meant for smaller country but not to major power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

3_M said:

. No major power will subject themselves to any form of higher jurisdiction including USA. It a matter of fact USA did the same when Nicaragua sued USA in ICJ. Like china, the American refused to attend and as a result Nicaragua won but the ruling was ignored by USA.

international court is only meant for smaller country but not to major power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

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Yes...

and therefore can the USA and Philippines expect China to obey PAC's ruling?

I agree. In the case of Nicaragua or any other state with similar standing, there won't much outcry. Its no different to any form of confrontation even in a school yard. You do not want to be seen as the bully but ideally as the hero to save the citizens. China made so much noise (read tantrums), made Laos look like a fool when they were the Asean Chairman by forcing them to withdraw their Asean joint statement within hours among other things.

3_M said:

. No major power will subject themselves to any form of higher jurisdiction including USA. It a matter of fact USA did the same when Nicaragua sued USA in ICJ. Like china, the American refused to attend and as a result Nicaragua won but the ruling was ignored by USA.

international court is only meant for smaller country but not to major power.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

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scroobal said:

I agree. In the case of Nicaragua or any other state with similar standing, there won't much outcry. Its no different to any form of confrontation even in a school yard. You do not want to be seen as the bully but ideally as the hero to save the citizens. China made so much noise (read tantrums), made Laos look like a fool when they were the Asean Chairman by forcing them to withdraw their Asean joint statement within hours among other things.

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This is a very layman way of saying but international politics is more complex.

ASEAN isnt structurally united on this because not all countries have a stake here. So why should they sacrifice their national interests ?

To force ASEAN to unite and take a stance here will only end up making the entire organization a big loser .

China questions fairness of arbitral tribunal


Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi has called the arbitration "a political farce under the pretext of law." And Vice Foreign Minister Liu Zhenmin has questioned the credibility of the arbitrators.

The Arbitration Tribunal, established in June 2013, consists of five people. They are Rüdiger Wolfrum from Germany, Thomas A. Mensah from Ghana, Jean-Pierre Cot from France, Stanislaw Pawlak from Poland, and Alfred H.A. Soons of the Netherlands. None of them are from Asia.

The German arbitrator was elected by the Philippines. China did not elect anyone as it stuck by its position of not participating in or accepting the arbitration.

What stands out is who appointed the other four on the panel. That decision maker was Shunji Yanai, a former Japanese diplomat. He was President of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea from 2011 to 2014.

The right-wing former politician helped Prime Minister Shinzo Abe lift the ban on collective self-defense right. And he takes an anti-China stance.

Yanai once claimed on a TV show of Japanese broadcaster NHK in 2013 that Japan should build up its military might against its "threat and enemy".

"From the very beginning of this case, from the appointment of its presiding arbitrators to the composition of the members, manipulation was easy," said Gong Yingchun, assoc. professor of China Foregin Affairs University.

"Rules were specially made for this case, different from the rules of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea and other courts that are set. There was little restraint on the rules. But the case it handled is far from simple."

Cambodian PM denounces pressures from certain countries

Prime minister of Cambodia, Hun Sen, has denounced certain countries for influencing the South China Sea arbitration. He said one country is exerting pressure on Cambodia and other ASEAN countries.

"A month ago, an ambassador of a country visited me, and said he hoped that Cambodia would support the one voice of ASEAN, after the release of the result of the South China Sea arbitration. I asked immediately what does the one voice mean. The ambassador replied that it is to support the arbitration of the international tribunal. Then, I asked again whether the ambassador knew the result of the arbitration beforehand. This is not about law. This is a political event, and I do not support it," said Hun Sen.

Expert: Arbitration illegal, invalid


China has reiterated time and again that it will not participate in or accept the results of the arbitration. Many legal experts and scholars have supported China's stance, saying that the arbitration is illegal and invalid, and has no jurisdiction on this matter.

One expert from China Foreign Affairs University tells us more about this unfair arbitration.

The Philippines unilaterally initiated the arbitration at The Hague in 2013.

Its 15 submissions raised in the arbitration can be categorized into three groups: challenging China's South China Sea dash line, China's claim of rights over several islands and reefs, and that China's exercise of rights on the waters harms the Philippines' interests.

But one expert says, underneath the submissions raised by the Philippines is case concerning territory and maritime delimitation.

"First, it focused the attention on 9 ocean features actually owned by China. Not all of them are controlled by China. The Philippines controlled some of them illegally," said Gong Yingchun, associate professor of China Foreign Affairs University.

"But its illegal occupation of the features is not mentioned, as if this is not a problem. So primarily, it intents to deny China's sovereignty on the rocks, including low-tide elevations."

Having identified the nature of the arbitration, experts talked about whether the tribunal has jurisdiction.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS doesn't cover territorial sovereignty. Even if it involved maritime delimitation, according to Article 298, China has ruled out the settlement by compulsory arbitration.

Gong also said, "So far, out of the five permanent members of UN Security Council, four have similar rule-out. The last one, the US, it's not in the convention. The rule-out itself tells of the international community's stance on dispute resolutions."

"On the third party intervention on dispute resolution process, this was quite controversial at the sea convention conference. That's why there are so many limitations on it."

And on the tribunal itself, experts say it has strong political and temporary features. Unlike other maritime courts, which have 21 judges from countries and regions all over the world, the temporary tribunal only has five people.

The presiding arbitrator, Shunji Yanai, once suggested to Japanese Prime Minister Abe to lift the ban on collective self-defense. And he was the one who appointed the other four members.

"It's easy for manipulation to take place, from the beginning of the case, to the appointment of member arbitrators. The rules of this case is made up by the case itself, other maritime tribunal or courts all follow fixed rules. It's such an important matter, yet it's put into hands of only 5 people," said Gong.

Gong Yingchun also said the tribunal violated the UNCLOS regulation on starting compulsory arbitration process. It's an act exceeds the authority, and the act itself harms the convention.

ckmpd said:

i thought that was Singapore's stand too. pap must be sucking up to Kissinger

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Harry Lee and Kissinger were great friends.