• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Where did PAP go wrong in Bukit Batok?

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
No matter how you see it, the swing was substantial - 12 percentage points, a margin of 23.42% vs 46.6%. What happened that halved the winning margin for the PAP. It was a safe PAP seat, it was in the West where opposition parties and quality candidates traditionally ignore the geography. It was not a good night for the PAP.

I don't think that it was David Ong's affair that had an impact. Adultery is not a crime and an everyday affair. The Chinese as a society with a firm and established history of concubines and mistresses are not going to bat any eyelid over it. Look at Yaw's affair and the Press going to town with it. It has absolutely no impact as Png Eng Huat showed with his resounding victory of 62.1%. And we all remember how the press worked extra hard on this issue.

It also cannot be that Murali was an Indian and therefore a minority. The guy has been in Bukit Batok for 16 years working the ground. He is also a lawyer with one of the big four. He has good academic records. So I am ruling this out. He and the team did credibl well in Aljunied and he only worked in Paya Lebar for 4 years.

That leaves 4 factors on the table -

1) The by-elections effect:
This does have an impact that has proven itself. In the 5 by-elections since 1980s, the Opposition has won 3, all by Workers Party - JBJ, Png Eng Huat and Lee Lian. The PAP won 2 - Marine Parade GRC By elections helmed by the PM and now Bukit Batok By-elections. Both coincidently had Chee in it. In addition in 1991, SDP under Chiam successfully convinced Singapore voters that the 1991 GE was indeed a By-election as the numbers of walk-overs given to PAP assured that it will form government and voters need not fear discontinuity or disruption. And voters responded. So it is indeed a proven phenomenon, to punish the PAP with little or nor disruption.

2) The PAP Candidate
Murali as a candidate and a litigation lawyer did not come across as a politician or a forceful character. He came across more as a dedicated Party worker. He got himself in a massive bind by misleading the voters over the $1.9m upgrade. And thereafter took a lower profile. His rallies were noted for better performance of his colleagues rather than him.

3) The PAP Performance
The economy was sliding, the PAP including its ministers were giving unconvincing answers and throwing out strawman arguments. MOM and it clarification created more confusion and they still could not explain that dramatic falls in numbers by many fold no matter what the definition refers to. Unemployment Insurance also caused a lots of angst and the PAP could not address this despite throwing out a less than convincing package of up-skilling programme.

The PAP election machinery was also clearly divided as evidenced by Tharman and Murali refusing go down the path of the PM and some of his cabinet colleagues. I expect more to come out on this as I got the impression this election was handled differently.

4) SDP Performance
SDP worked hard on the ground and had a 2 month start. They used this to maximum effect. They were also captured the social media bandwidth overwhelming the PAP. They took to the estate on bicycles to extend reach and penetration and were present at MRT station to raise profile. In terms of logistics, they did very well.

I had the sense however that for every step that SDP took forward it also took a step back thus cancelling out any substantial improvement. Here are 3 incidents

- It opened the door on character with Dhamanhuri and Sadasivam. To make matters worse Chee did the age old tactics of supposedly refusing to talk about sensitive issues but ended up raising them on the pretext of making a point of avoiding gutter politics. He did that twice, one on David Ong and the second on Lee Wei Ling. He therefore came across as a hypocrite. If he had kept quiet, the PAP could not touch him. He therefore showed himself to the voters as a recalcitrant.

- Quality of supporting speakers and content at rallies. Rallies are now broadcast live to homes. So the reach is much wider and therefore should have more an effect than in the past. The media is no longer trusted and rallies are an excellent opportunity to hear from both sides. SDP was let down by both content and quality of speakers. It became quite suicidal when you have someone like John Tan speak. There is a major difference between speaking with an Ang Mo accent acquired while spending time working, studying or staying for an extended period overseas and a completely fake made-up extent. John's was the latter. Nobody even an Ang Mo speaks like that. His content was really poor and no relations to electioneering. His was the obvious. Paul Thambyah came across surprisingly as a bureaucrat and not a politician. Stark contrast to Vincent Wijeysinghe and therefore could not deliver the attacks on the PAP on issues that are close to voters. Chee has excellent delivery style - forceful and compelling but let down by content and focus.

- The Chiam matter. Again it was started by SDP. Totally unnecessary.

The other factors that maybe in play whether right or wrong with time telling us which is which. The use of his children to get sympathy votes and his full-time MP role are 2.
 

blueRad

Alfrescian
Loyal
Chee will find it hard to get elected no matter how hard he tried because his past will always affect him. I do agree he did have a much slicker media campaign which is an advantage that SDP has over WP.

On the social media side, i noticed a lot more people are willing to speak out for him online than before. The rise of pro PAP internet during ge 2015 definitely shocked some of these pro opposition side to at least try to claim back the internet.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There is no fair election in sinkapore. The outcome is determined by the PM as he controls the Elections Department.

Such an important department is staffed by only 28 people and so secretive. We don't know who is in charge. We don't know who came up with the world's bestest sampling poll that can predict with 100 percent accuracy. Aside, many polling companies would love to have this methodology but they know it is bs and can only be done in sinkapore.

All the analyses are just pure speculation and is hogwash when election outcome is determined by the PM.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
- the swing wasn't substantial consider the fact that ge15 result was an anomaly that saw many moderate opposition supporters voting for pap. In a BE it I expected a backflow of such voters. If I factor this group of voters, the swing is actually less than 10%.

- pap adopted the good cop and bad cop strategy of using heavyweight ministers to cast aspersions on csj character. Muralli and Tharman are the charmer and play the role of the nice guy and therefore not wise to talk bad about csj.

- sdp over promise on carrots. Like setting up trust funds with mp allowance. It does not in anyway appear enticing. Also the promise of running a role model TC when they have no track record to backup. They set the standard so high that and Voters didn't buy into this.

-using full time mp as a carrot. Voters couldnt care less if mp goes full time or part time as long as their needs are serve. It just a mean to an end and not a carrot.

- overplay the victim card and hence allow the doubt on his character to drag on. If he could show some sense of humility by apologizing for the mistakes he made previously, things won't be so bad.

- overused his family. Over exposure and Sight of his teenage children wearing party uniform. Not forgetting direct mentioned of them during rally to attack pap certainly reinforce the perception that he is making use of his children for political gain.

-dragging cst in without proper communication and agreement was certain unwise move. Mentioning of lwl was also done in an abrasive manner.

-walking hard on the ground when there is an election approaching certainly doesn't win the hearts. It the consistency and frequency that matter. It took Sylvia 5 years few times a week of knocking at every doors that finally saw some results. Sdp certainly doesn't has the stamina and patience to walk the ground during the lull period.

- fielding csj was a nonstarter. PT obviously is a much better candidate. If he contests, he could even win a lot of Chinese votes with his eloquent mandarin whereas muralli can't even speak a proper sentence. The whole BE wouldn't turn into a referemdum on csj.
 
Last edited:

JohnTan

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
As long as PAP won, PAP did not go wrong. Murali and his team of grassroots leaders have four years to improve his electoral support, which we all will work hard together to ensure PAP continues to win in Bukit Batok.
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Here in my opinion are the important points:

PAP:

(1) They had a seasoned man who had walked the ground extensively for well over a decade and so was a familiar face on a personal level with a fair number of Bukit Batok residents. He does not have the air of superiority like Koh Poh Koon and does not come across as arrogant or condescending. A man with a better personality in spite of his 1.9M gaffe.

(2) Spill over from GE 2015 - PAP has addressed many outstanding national issues, even if only partially (in my view, superficially), and grievances have been assuaged. Anger level much reduced despite continued problems like train breakdowns which incidentally SDP did not harp on.

(3) The by election effect however worked against the PAP, as usual. There was only one election in which the PAP was not punished by the BE effect, and that was GCT Marine Parade 1992 during which time he was Prime Minister as thus it was unthinkable that a voter would choose to unseat a PM.

(4) They were competing against the SDP and in particular CSJ - a person for which it is possible to carry out personal attacks and not suffer backlash. And thus the easy win for Murali despite the vote swing due to BE effect. Advantage to have SDP as opponent, and double advantage to have CSJ as opponent.

SDP:

(1) They fielded CSJ instead of Paul Tambyah who would have been a better candidate with no historical baggage or decades of media vilification to contend with. CSJ provided the PAP extensive angles to attack including all the traditional angles concerning character, misuse of data, etc. The people also know CSJ for all the wrong reasons.

(2) SDP unwisely allowed the Chiam issue to be raked up again, and the Chiams did them no favour by punishing them to max possible extent.

(3) 2 months of groundwork cannot make up for years upon years of behind-the-scenes legwork which the media does not report. Lee Li Lian did not win PE by doing 2 months there. She had established an election record. JBJ also did not win Anson in 2 months. He contested Telok Blangah and other areas near Anson prior to 1981 and also had established an election record around the nearby regions. That allowed 3L and JBJ to take full adv of the BE effect, but SDP could not exploit it fully due to insufficient preparation.

(4) SDP does not really connect with the elderly.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree on many of the points but not sure if this was a referendum on Chee or the SDP. I know it sounds odd but I do wonder if it is better if Chee closes down SDP for good and started afresh.

On using his kids for elections. It is something not done in Asia. Agree that it is not safe to do this.

- the swing wasn't substantial consider the fact that ge15 result was an anomaly that saw many moderate opposition supporters voting for pap. In a BE it I expected a backflow of such voters. If I factor this group of voters, the swing is actually less than 10%.

- pap adopted the good cop and bad cop strategy of using heavyweight ministers to cast aspersions on csj character. Muralli and Tharman are the charmer and play the role of the nice guy and therefore not wise to talk bad about csj.

- sdp over promise on carrots. Like setting up trust funds with mp allowance. It does not in anyway appear enticing. Also the promise of running a role model TC when they have no track record to backup. They set the standard so high that and Voters didn't buy into this.

-using full time mp as a carrot. Voters couldnt care less if mp goes full time or part time as long as their needs are serve. It just a mean to an end and not a carrot.

- overplay the victim card and hence allow the doubt on his character to drag on. If he could show some sense of humility by apologizing for the mistakes he made previously, things won't be so bad.

- overused his family. Over exposure and Sight of his teenage children wearing party uniform. Not forgetting direct mentioned of them during rally to attack pap certainly reinforce the perception that he is making use of his children for political gain.

-dragging cst in without proper communication and agreement was certain unwise move. Mentioning of lwl was also done in an abrasive manner.

-walking hard on the ground when there is an election approaching certainly doesn't win the hearts. It the consistency and frequency that matter. It took Sylvia 5 years few times a week of knocking at every doors that finally saw some results. Sdp certainly doesn't has the stamina and patience to walk the ground during the lull period.

- fielding csj was a nonstarter. PT obviously is a much better candidate. If he contests, he could even win a lot of Chinese votes with his eloquent mandarin whereas muralli can't even speak a proper sentence. The whole BE wouldn't turn into a referemdum on csj.
 

kkbutterfly

Alfrescian
Loyal
No matter how you see it, the swing was substantial - 12 percentage points, a margin of 23.42% vs 46.6%. What happened that halved the winning margin for the PAP. It was a safe PAP seat, it was in the West where opposition parties and quality candidates traditionally ignore the geography. It was not a good night for the PAP.

I don't think that it was David Ong's affair that had an impact. Adultery is not a crime and an everyday affair. The Chinese as a society with a firm and established history of concubines and mistresses are not going to bat any eyelid over it. Look at Yaw's affair and the Press going to town with it. It has absolutely no impact as Png Eng Huat showed with his resounding victory of 62.1%. And we all remember how the press worked extra hard on this issue.

It also cannot be that Murali was an Indian and therefore a minority. The guy has been in Bukit Batok for 16 years working the ground. He is also a lawyer with one of the big four. He has good academic records. So I am ruling this out. He and the team did credibl well in Aljunied and he only worked in Paya Lebar for 4 years.

That leaves 4 factors on the table -

1) The by-elections effect:
This does have an impact that has proven itself. In the 5 by-elections since 1980s, the Opposition has won 3, all by Workers Party - JBJ, Png Eng Huat and Lee Lian. The PAP won 2 - Marine Parade GRC By elections helmed by the PM and now Bukit Batok By-elections. Both coincidently had Chee in it. In addition in 1991, SDP under Chiam successfully convinced Singapore voters that the 1991 GE was indeed a By-election as the numbers of walk-overs given to PAP assured that it will form government and voters need not fear discontinuity or disruption. And voters responded. So it is indeed a proven phenomenon, to punish the PAP with little or nor disruption.

2) The PAP Candidate
Murali as a candidate and a litigation lawyer did not come across as a politician or a forceful character. He came across more as a dedicated Party worker. He got himself in a massive bind by misleading the voters over the $1.9m upgrade. And thereafter took a lower profile. His rallies were noted for better performance of his colleagues rather than him.

3) The PAP Performance
The economy was sliding, the PAP including its ministers were giving unconvincing answers and throwing out strawman arguments. MOM and it clarification created more confusion and they still could not explain that dramatic falls in numbers by many fold no matter what the definition refers to. Unemployment Insurance also caused a lots of angst and the PAP could not address this despite throwing out a less than convincing package of up-skilling programme.

The PAP election machinery was also clearly divided as evidenced by Tharman and Murali refusing go down the path of the PM and some of his cabinet colleagues. I expect more to come out on this as I got the impression this election was handled differently.

4) SDP Performance
SDP worked hard on the ground and had a 2 month start. They used this to maximum effect. They were also captured the social media bandwidth overwhelming the PAP. They took to the estate on bicycles to extend reach and penetration and were present at MRT station to raise profile. In terms of logistics, they did very well.

I had the sense however that for every step that SDP took forward it also took a step back thus cancelling out any substantial improvement. Here are 3 incidents

- It opened the door on character with Dhamanhuri and Sadasivam. To make matters worse Chee did the age old tactics of supposedly refusing to talk about sensitive issues but ended up raising them on the pretext of making a point of avoiding gutter politics. He did that twice, one on David Ong and the second on Lee Wei Ling. He therefore came across as a hypocrite. If he had kept quiet, the PAP could not touch him. He therefore showed himself to the voters as a recalcitrant.

- Quality of supporting speakers and content at rallies. Rallies are now broadcast live to homes. So the reach is much wider and therefore should have more an effect than in the past. The media is no longer trusted and rallies are an excellent opportunity to hear from both sides. SDP was let down by both content and quality of speakers. It became quite suicidal when you have someone like John Tan speak. There is a major difference between speaking with an Ang Mo accent acquired while spending time working, studying or staying for an extended period overseas and a completely fake made-up extent. John's was the latter. Nobody even an Ang Mo speaks like that. His content was really poor and no relations to electioneering. His was the obvious. Paul Thambyah came across surprisingly as a bureaucrat and not a politician. Stark contrast to Vincent Wijeysinghe and therefore could not deliver the attacks on the PAP on issues that are close to voters. Chee has excellent delivery style - forceful and compelling but let down by content and focus.

- The Chiam matter. Again it was started by SDP. Totally unnecessary.

The other factors that maybe in play whether right or wrong with time telling us which is which. The use of his children to get sympathy votes and his full-time MP role are 2.

you twit. never heard of by election effect?
 

kkbutterfly

Alfrescian
Loyal
There is no fair election in sinkapore. The outcome is determined by the PM as he controls the Elections Department.

Such an important department is staffed by only 28 people and so secretive. We don't know who is in charge. We don't know who came up with the world's bestest sampling poll that can predict with 100 percent accuracy. Aside, many polling companies would love to have this methodology but they know it is bs and can only be done in sinkapore.

All the analyses are just pure speculation and is hogwash when election outcome is determined by the PM.

you twit. keeping repeating the same theory in every single mother F thread
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree Bro. I wonder how Chee would re-shape his party and himself. Also interesting if they start focusing in one area and work the ground. The biggest challenge is to attract a better quality of members to as potential candidates and speakers.

Here in my opinion are the important points:

PAP:

(1) They had a seasoned man who had walked the ground extensively for well over a decade and so was a familiar face on a personal level with a fair number of Bukit Batok residents. He does not have the air of superiority like Koh Poh Koon and does not come across as arrogant or condescending. A man with a better personality in spite of his 1.9M gaffe.

(2) Spill over from GE 2015 - PAP has addressed many outstanding national issues, even if only partially (in my view, superficially), and grievances have been assuaged. Anger level much reduced despite continued problems like train breakdowns which incidentally SDP did not harp on.

(3) The by election effect however worked against the PAP, as usual. There was only one election in which the PAP was not punished by the BE effect, and that was GCT Marine Parade 1992 during which time he was Prime Minister as thus it was unthinkable that a voter would choose to unseat a PM.

(4) They were competing against the SDP and in particular CSJ - a person for which it is possible to carry out personal attacks and not suffer backlash. And thus the easy win for Murali despite the vote swing due to BE effect. Advantage to have SDP as opponent, and double advantage to have CSJ as opponent.

SDP:

(1) They fielded CSJ instead of Paul Tambyah who would have been a better candidate with no historical baggage or decades of media vilification to contend with. CSJ provided the PAP extensive angles to attack including all the traditional angles concerning character, misuse of data, etc. The people also know CSJ for all the wrong reasons.

(2) SDP unwisely allowed the Chiam issue to be raked up again, and the Chiams did them no favour by punishing them to max possible extent.

(3) 2 months of groundwork cannot make up for years upon years of behind-the-scenes legwork which the media does not report. Lee Li Lian did not win PE by doing 2 months there. She had established an election record. JBJ also did not win Anson in 2 months. He contested Telok Blangah and other areas near Anson prior to 1981 and also had established an election record around the nearby regions. That allowed 3L and JBJ to take full adv of the BE effect, but SDP could not exploit it fully due to insufficient preparation.

(4) SDP does not really connect with the elderly.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
My guess is PAP cheated in the last g.e.the number of new citizens really had a impact on the election results skewing up the average result of many constituency by quite a few percentage points.bukit batok is probably one of those few shitholes untouched by new citizens and retained the old mix of 60/40 voters.singapore democracy has been set back 10 years at least by new trash.
 

harimau

Alfrescian
Loyal
PAP is a real cheating election bastards.

Their cheating begins on day one of the election announcement date.

All the way till the end.

God will curse them for stealing votes away from the people.

Mark my words. More shits coming your way.
 
Last edited:

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
....... lemming "suicide" is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming

Are we now in the realm of myths and misconception?
 

Debonerman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree Bro. I wonder how Chee would re-shape his party and himself. Also interesting if they start focusing in one area and work the ground. The biggest challenge is to attract a better quality of members to as potential candidates and speakers.

Be a regular sight in BB. Lim kopi in all the coffeshops. No laws broken to have a cup of coffee. People will start coming to share their problems. Provide a listening ear even if you can't help. GE is only four years away. Show people you are committed to Bukit Batok. Stay put even if Ting Pei Ling is caught sucking a porlumpar's cock. Murali will be an absentee MP.
 
Top