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Jesus did not die on cross, says christian scholar

Faker

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...s-scholar.html

The legend of his execution is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations rather than antique texts, according to theologian Gunnar Samuelsson.

He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails or to crucifixion - only that Jesus bore a "staurus" towards Calvary which is not necessarily a cross but can also mean a "pole".

Mr Samuelsson, who has written a 400-page thesis after studying the original texts, said: "The problem is descriptions of crucifixions are remarkably absent in the antique literature.

"The sources where you would expect to find support for the established understanding of the event really don't say anything."

The ancient Greek, Latin and Hebrew literature from Homer to the first century AD describe an arsenal of suspension punishments but none mention "crosses" or "crucifixion."

Mr Samuelsson, of Gothenburg University, said: "Consequently, the contemporary understanding of crucifixion as a punishment is severely challenged.

"And what's even more challenging is the same can be concluded about the accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. The New Testament doesn't say as much as we'd like to believe."

Any evidence that Jesus was left to die after being nailed to a cross is strikingly sparse - both in the ancient pre-Christian and extra-Biblical literature as well as The Bible.

Mr Samuelsson, a committed Christian himself, admitted his claims are so close to the heart of his faith that it is easy to react emotionally instead of logically.

Mr Samuelsson said the actual execution texts do not describe how Christ was attached to the execution device.

He said: "This is the heart of the problem. The text of the passion narratives is not that exact and information loaded, as we Christians sometimes want it to be."

Mr Samuelsson said: "If you are looking for texts that depict the act of nailing persons to a cross you will not find any beside the Gospels."

A lot of contemporary literature all use the same vague terminology - including the Latin accounts.

Nor does the Latin word crux automatically refer to a cross while patibulum refer to the cross-beam. Both words are used in a wider sense that that.

Mr Samuelsson said: "That a man named Jesus existed in that part of the world and in that time is well-documented. He left a rather good foot-print in the literature of the time.

"I do believe that the mentioned man is the son of God. My suggestion is not that Christians should reject or doubt the biblical text.

"My suggestion is that we should read the text as it is, not as we think it is. We should read on the lines, not between the lines. The text of the Bible is sufficient. We do not need to add anything."
 

Frodo

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...s-scholar.html

The legend of his execution is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations rather than antique texts, according to theologian Gunnar Samuelsson.

He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails or to crucifixion - only that Jesus bore a "staurus" towards Calvary which is not necessarily a cross but can also mean a "pole".

Mr Samuelsson, who has written a 400-page thesis after studying the original texts, said: "The problem is descriptions of crucifixions are remarkably absent in the antique literature.

"The sources where you would expect to find support for the established understanding of the event really don't say anything."

The ancient Greek, Latin and Hebrew literature from Homer to the first century AD describe an arsenal of suspension punishments but none mention "crosses" or "crucifixion."

Mr Samuelsson, of Gothenburg University, said: "Consequently, the contemporary understanding of crucifixion as a punishment is severely challenged.

"And what's even more challenging is the same can be concluded about the accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. The New Testament doesn't say as much as we'd like to believe."

Any evidence that Jesus was left to die after being nailed to a cross is strikingly sparse - both in the ancient pre-Christian and extra-Biblical literature as well as The Bible.

Mr Samuelsson, a committed Christian himself, admitted his claims are so close to the heart of his faith that it is easy to react emotionally instead of logically.

Mr Samuelsson said the actual execution texts do not describe how Christ was attached to the execution device.

He said: "This is the heart of the problem. The text of the passion narratives is not that exact and information loaded, as we Christians sometimes want it to be."

Mr Samuelsson said: "If you are looking for texts that depict the act of nailing persons to a cross you will not find any beside the Gospels."

A lot of contemporary literature all use the same vague terminology - including the Latin accounts.

Nor does the Latin word crux automatically refer to a cross while patibulum refer to the cross-beam. Both words are used in a wider sense that that.

Mr Samuelsson said: "That a man named Jesus existed in that part of the world and in that time is well-documented. He left a rather good foot-print in the literature of the time.

"I do believe that the mentioned man is the son of God. My suggestion is not that Christians should reject or doubt the biblical text.

"My suggestion is that we should read the text as it is, not as we think it is. We should read on the lines, not between the lines. The text of the Bible is sufficient. We do not need to add anything."

Wow, if crucifixion is not to be seen as punishment, maybe we should see it as a form of massage? LOL!

But this scholar makes much ado about nothing. While the Gospels did not describe the form of the stauros, the word can either mean pole or a cross-beamed structure aka cross. As for nails, the Gospel of John tells us that Thomas wanted to see the nail marks in his hands. But really what’s the point of this 400 page thesis, just to arrive at the conclusion that we cannot be explicit about the shape of the cross? OK, hand it to him then, I would say it matters little the shape of the cross on which Jesus was nailed, but that the blood that flowed from the nails-pierced hands and feet was what mattered most, that “He died, was buried, and rose again on the third day.”
 

Agoraphobic

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During the time the story of Jesus was based on, Roman punishment for common criminals was cruxifiction. Jesus was tried and convicted as one of the criminals, and was likely crucified. Artist depictions of the Christ was based on this. Much of Christian art we see today were done during Europe's Renaisssance period, and hence the persona depictions had Caucasian resemblances. Jesus was Middle-Eastern, and so was Mary and Joseph.

Cheers!

..........The legend of his execution is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations .............
 

Frodo

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During the time the story of Jesus was based on, Roman punishment for common criminals was cruxifiction. Jesus was tried and convicted as one of the criminals, and was likely crucified. Artist depictions of the Christ was based on this. Much of Christian art we see today were done during Europe's Renaisssance period, and hence the persona depictions had Caucasian resemblances. Jesus was Middle-Eastern, and so was Mary and Joseph.

Cheers!

But if as you said earlier that Jesus never existed but was a fictional character invented by the Romans or the church to control weak-minded gullible and naïve believers, then it is absurd to talk about Jesus being “likely crucified”. One has to make up his mind what is it about Jesus that he is talking about.
 

Agoraphobic

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The story has to be as close as possible to real events that happened in history. It is known that the Romans crucified criminals in public, so when this person of Jesus was sentenced by the authorities, and sentenced to the penalties of the day, it was likely crucifixion. It would definitely be more convincing than saying Jesus was sentenced to death from hanging by his throat till he died. Besides, the cross makes a nicer symbol for Christians to cherish or adorn! (than a hangman's noose!)

Cheers!

But if as you said earlier that Jesus never existed but was a fictional character invented by the Romans or the church to control weak-minded gullible and naïve believers, then it is absurd to talk about Jesus being “likely crucified”. One has to make up his mind what is it about Jesus that he is talking about.
 

Frodo

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The story has to be as close as possible to real events that happened in history. It is known that the Romans crucified criminals in public, so when this person of Jesus was sentenced by the authorities, and sentenced to the penalties of the day, it was likely crucifixion. It would definitely be more convincing than saying Jesus was sentenced to death from hanging by his throat till he died. Besides, the cross makes a nicer symbol for Christians to cherish or adorn! (than a hangman's noose!)

Cheers!

OK...so was there a literal Jesus who was literally sentenced by a literal Pontius Pilate and literally crucified on a cross by literal Roman soldiers? Or are you of the (failed) opinion that it was all literary but not literally?
 

Agoraphobic

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The name Jesus could have been anybody who live during that period. Probably was a real criminal by that name (who was crucified). The story of the Son of God was fabricated to appeal to the masses who wanted a messiah. The story emerged about two or three hundred years after the supposed cruxifiction.

Cheers!

OK...so was there a literal Jesus who was literally sentenced by a literal Pontius Pilate and literally crucified on a cross by literal Roman soldiers? Or are you of the (failed) opinion that it was all literary but not literally?
 

Frodo

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The name Jesus could have been anybody who live during that period. Probably was a real criminal by that name (who was crucified). The story of the Son of God was fabricated to appeal to the masses who wanted a messiah. The story emerged about two or three hundred years after the supposed cruxifiction.

Cheers!

I wonder if you even believe the ad hoc just so theory you fabricated to explain away the history and evidence behind the person Jesus Christ! LOL!
Which masses wanted a Messiah? Why would they want a Messiah? How big are the Masses? Why should a mighty empire like Rome want to conspire with anyone to give them a Messiah? Would Rome even care? As to your claim (or rather CSB) that the story of Jesus emerged 300 years later…it doesn’t hold any water at all. The NT was already circulating before the first century was over. Your beliefs are refuted by the facts of history.
 

Agoraphobic

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Aiyah, a bit of common sense is all that is needed here lah! Rome was the power overseeing much of the "known" world at that time, the masses would be the non-Roman peoples living under their rule, the Jews for one, and the others which later came to be known as the Gentiles. These were the oppressed who paid taxes to Rome but did not enjoy the privilege of being a Roman citizen. Obviously they wanted to be freed from this rule. The prophecy comforted them that a Messiah was on the way. That appealed to the masses at that time. The character Jesus was concocted to fulfil this role. Rome had to care, it was politics. There were rebel groups everywhere, their suspicions were real, they killed every first-born Jew on the news that the Messiah was born in Jerusalem.

Cheers!

.................
Which masses wanted a Messiah? Why would they want a Messiah? How big are the Masses? Why should a mighty empire like Rome want to conspire with anyone to give them a Messiah? Would Rome even care? As to your claim (or rather CSB) that the story of Jesus emerged 300 years later…it doesn’t hold any water at all. The NT was already circulating before the first century was over. Your beliefs are refuted by the facts of history.
 

Frodo

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Aiyah, a bit of common sense is all that is needed here lah! Rome was the power overseeing much of the "known" world at that time, the masses would be the non-Roman peoples living under their rule, the Jews for one, and the others which later came to be known as the Gentiles. These were the oppressed who paid taxes to Rome but did not enjoy the privilege of being a Roman citizen. Obviously they wanted to be freed from this rule. The prophecy comforted them that a Messiah was on the way. That appealed to the masses at that time. The character Jesus was concocted to fulfil this role. Rome had to care, it was politics. There were rebel groups everywhere, their suspicions were real, they killed every first-born Jew on the news that the Messiah was born in Jerusalem.

Cheers!

Common sense also must give way to facts and undisputed history. Only the Jews were hoping for a political Messiah to deliver them from Rome’s oppression. Pray tell how does Jesus fit into their expectations? And if want to concoct a fictional character, wouldn’t it be better to invent a Hercules-like character (Hollywood style) than to invent an itinerant teacher who always get into conflicts with the Jewish leaders, get rejected by the Jewish people, who managed to get Rome to kill Jesus? Would you cook up such a story? Can you?:rolleyes:
 

Agoraphobic

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The story of Jesus is very well thought-out. The storytellers must have thought out very angle. Most kings come from well-to-do families. But Jesus was born in poverty. A commoner, in a manger. But he was the son of the greatest being in the universe! That appeals to the common masses much more than some elitisit jerk born and fed with a silver spoon. He knows the hardship of the common man, and so they could associate with him rather than some spoilt-rich man's bratty son. Besides, the story of Jesus was derived from an earlier divine deity, and this lends to the divinity of the man from Galileo. And to fulfil the scriptures, he has to die at the hands of the Roman authorities, so that makes him human. A human with God like qualities, great but humble, powerful, but merciful. How could such a person not inspire awe and admiration from the masses? Jesus was the perfect being to rule the world.

Cheers!

Common sense also must give way to facts and undisputed history. Only the Jews were hoping for a political Messiah to deliver them from Rome’s oppression. Pray tell how does Jesus fit into their expectations? And if want to concoct a fictional character, wouldn’t it be better to invent a Hercules-like character (Hollywood style) than to invent an itinerant teacher who always get into conflicts with the Jewish leaders, get rejected by the Jewish people, who managed to get Rome to kill Jesus? Would you cook up such a story? Can you?:rolleyes:
 

Frodo

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The story of Jesus is very well thought-out. The storytellers must have thought out very angle. Most kings come from well-to-do families. But Jesus was born in poverty. A commoner, in a manger. But he was the son of the greatest being in the universe! That appeals to the common masses much more than some elitisit jerk born and fed with a silver spoon. He knows the hardship of the common man, and so they could associate with him rather than some spoilt-rich man's bratty son. Besides, the story of Jesus was derived from an earlier divine deity, and this lends to the divinity of the man from Galileo. And to fulfil the scriptures, he has to die at the hands of the Roman authorities, so that makes him human. A human with God like qualities, great but humble, powerful, but merciful. How could such a person not inspire awe and admiration from the masses? Jesus was the perfect being to rule the world.

Cheers!

So how did an entirely fictional character concocted to deceive the masses end up having its perpetrators (early believers) persecuted and killed and the fictional character become viewed by the whole world as a real person of history from which today even the most hardened critic of Christianity and denier of Jesus would have to join in the "deception" and pay homage to Jesus every time he looks at the calendar? Don't you think your CSB is just a CSB and that the existence of the real person as recorded in the Bible is the only explanation that best accounts for what we know today?
 

Agoraphobic

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Apostles (or more accurately, die-hard followers) passed the word around. Most notable Saint Paul who brought Christianity to the Gentiles. So they became martyrs for their leader martyr Jesus. After that, cults grew into nations, and the peoples of the world adopted it into their culture, then it became a norm, a culture, and today, it has become a worldwide religion. But its pagan roots still tell of Christianity's earlier roots, like Easter Egg and the Easter Bunny and the Christmas Tree!

Cheers!

So how did an entirely fictional character concocted to deceive the masses end up having its perpetrators (early believers) persecuted and killed and the fictional character become viewed by the whole world as a real person of history from which today even the most hardened critic of Christianity and denier of Jesus would have to join in the "deception" and pay homage to Jesus every time he looks at the calendar? Don't you think your CSB is just a CSB and that the existence of the real person as recorded in the Bible is the only explanation that best accounts for what we know today?
 

Frodo

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Apostles (or more accurately, die-hard followers) passed the word around. Most notable Saint Paul who brought Christianity to the Gentiles. So they became martyrs for their leader martyr Jesus. After that, cults grew into nations, and the peoples of the world adopted it into their culture, then it became a norm, a culture, and today, it has become a worldwide religion. But its pagan roots still tell of Christianity's earlier roots, like Easter Egg and the Easter Bunny and the Christmas Tree!

Cheers!

Here’s where the fun begins as the CSB comes undone! So besides Jesus being the main character who was concocted, who else is also concocted? Some? Everyone? By who? When? And how do you know for sure? Why would Paul be real and not also a fictitious person? Who decides who is literally and who is literary? And why would anyone want to be a martyr for their own lies? Lastly, the claim of pagan roots has not been matched by the evidence at all. All we have is the critics CSB simply because they do not wish the Bible accounts to be true.:rolleyes:
 

Agoraphobic

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I think we all know its the Greatest Story ever told! Its made up of a string of epic stories!

Cheers!

Here’s where the fun begins as the CSB comes undone! So besides Jesus being the main character who was concocted, who else is also concocted? Some? Everyone? By who? When? And how do you know for sure? Why would Paul be real and not also a fictitious person? Who decides who is literally and who is literary? And why would anyone want to be a martyr for their own lies? Lastly, the claim of pagan roots has not been matched by the evidence at all. All we have is the critics CSB simply because they do not wish the Bible accounts to be true.:rolleyes:
 

Frodo

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I think we all know its the Greatest Story ever told! Its made up of a string of epic stories!

Cheers!

I think the greatest story ever sold are the ones concocted by the critics and atheists that claim that the Bible’s accounts of Jesus were concocted. LOL! :rolleyes:
 

drifteri

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I think we all know its the Greatest Story ever told! Its made up of a string of epic stories!

Cheers!

I would concoct a character that is so great, sacrifice every thing daily food, sex life money blah blah many idiots would be touched and adored him. I will tell them if they accept him, they would get every lasting supplies of food and virgin this and next life, I would build a mass of gong kia followers willing to empty their bank accounts for me the messenger. :wink:
 
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Agoraphobic

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Nope. The Greatest Story ever told is the one that is told to millions of people every year, who wish to hear it over and over again, and watch movies of it every year, and bring their children to watch them too! There is no doubt which story is that! It has moved people and created nations. That is the greatest story ever told!

Cheers!

I think the greatest story ever sold are the ones concocted by the critics and atheists that claim that the Bible’s accounts of Jesus were concocted. LOL! :rolleyes:
 

Frodo

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Nope. The Greatest Story ever told is the one that is told to millions of people every year, who wish to hear it over and over again, and watch movies of it every year, and bring their children to watch them too! There is no doubt which story is that! It has moved people and created nations. That is the greatest story ever told!

Cheers!

Yep...the Gospels that talk about Jesus...TRUE STORY!:smile:
 
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