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Singapore youths shun religion

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
I wonder what appeal religion has today for the youth? It does not provide anything that attracts them. YOuth activities are better organised by other interest groups, CCs, schools, and individual teams. Some "conservative" religious groups also deter youth from musical expression deemed "satanic" and restricts freedoms. Everything they need to know, they can obtain from friends, the internet, teachers, etc. And there is no need to worry about the afterlife, at least not for a long time, as far as the youth are concerned. Little wonder why they're not that interested in religion.

Cheers!

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/03/21/youth-singapore-shunning-religion.html

Youth in Singapore shunning religion

The Straits Times/ANN, Singapore | World | Mon, March 21 2016, 10:21 PM

Having prayed to Buddha as a child and after spending her early teens worshipping Jesus, copywriter Hannah Jasmine Kok, 23, no longer believes in the divine.She said she left the Buddhist faith at 13 as she could not relate to rituals she performed with her parents, and dropped out of church after three years because she "didn't think it was going anywhere".Now an atheist, she said: "I think it is highly improbable that any god exists. There is no evidence for it."Kok is one of a growing number of young people here with no religious affiliations.The Department of Statistics' General Household Survey 2015 report released earlier this month found that those who said they had no religious affiliation constituted 18.5 per cent of the resident population last year - up from 17 per cent in 2010.Of this group, many were young. About 65 per cent were aged between 15 and 44, and about 23 per cent between 15 and 24, compared with 14.6 per cent among residents aged 55 and above.The religious composition as a whole remained relatively stable - 43.2 per cent of the resident populace identified as Buddhists or Taoists, 18.8 per cent as Christians, 14 per cent as Muslims and 5 per cent as Hindus. The number of Christians increased marginally, while other religions experienced slight declines.FACTORS BEHIND GROWTH IN THE NON-RELIGIOUSAcademics and religious leaders said the trend of non-religious affiliation is in tandem with an increasingly educated populace, some of whom might move away from religion if it does not connect with their lives and needs.The Institute of Policy Studies' senior research fellow Mathew Mathews said this is more common for individuals who grew up in families where religion was already nominally practised.The Catholic Church said traditional religions have also been slow to engage young people and help them appreciate their faith.Singapore Buddhist Federation president Seck Kwang Phing believes the youthful face of the non- religious group ties in with a change in attitudes among the young, who have become more independent in their thinking.He said: "They ask and argue and do not simply allow their parents to select their faiths on their behalf."Young people today are also exposed to a range of ideologies, which results in a spectrum of views within the non-religious category. The segment therefore includes atheists and agnostics; humanists and secularists; as well as free-thinkers and other individuals who might not necessarily be anti-religion.National University of Singapore political science undergraduate Bertrand Seah, 21, grew up Christian in a Methodist school environment, but began doing his own research on religion in junior college.He became influenced by religious critics and scientific scepticism advocates such as American Sam Harris.Like the other youth The Straits Times spoke to, Mr Seah said he believes in a "rational" approach. "I don't think I need divine guidance to make a right or wrong decision. Reason alone can guide such decision-making," he said.Experts said the relative stability of a country also means there is less concern about the future because the present is "non-threatening".When this is the case, there is less incentive to look to religion for divine intervention or for security.Young people might also be doing their own research before eventually committing to a particular faith, experts said.Some suggested that the multi- religious make-up of Singapore and the open-door policy of religious institutions here facilitate "shopping" for a religion.Some young people could also be identifying more with liberal ideologies that clash with religious teachings on topics such as homosexuality.Social anthropologist Lai Ah Eng of the National University of Singapore (NUS) said this group might therefore find religions "variously limiting, irrational, oppressive, unreasonable and unscientific".Youth and religious experts interviewed noted the high-profile failures of institutional religions to uphold their credibility as a moral voice, which may also have turned some people away from religion.Some cited high-profile incidents such as the City Harvest case, where church leaders were found guilty of misusing around $50 million (US$36.7 million) in church funds.POSSIBLE IMPLICATIONSSeveral religious leaders said they are concerned about the shift.Reverend Father Jude David, co-chaplain of the Catholic Church's Office for Young People, believes that without religion "Singapore would certainly lose a part of her soul or spirit".Reverend Dominic Yeo, the general superintendent of the Assemblies of God of Singapore, agreed. He said religion teaches its followers to be moral, adding: "We need to guard our nation, our children and the next generation against moral decadence."Others are concerned about solidarity in households where the parents or grandparents are deeply religious. NUS sociologist Paulin Straughan said disparities in religious ideology could result in intergenerational fault lines and a widening gap "because religion, when it is functional, pulls families together".Ultimately, the consensus among the various groups is for the need for more dialogue to understand "mutual concerns and find ways to negotiate potential tensions", said Mathews. They said this should be backed by more research to understand the specific make-up of Singapore's non-religious segment.Communication channels already exist. For instance, the Humanist Society - set up to represent Singapore's non-religious population - has been involved in discussions organized by the Inter-Religious Organization of Singapore and the Inter-Racial and Religious Confidence Circles.Executive committee member Pearl Lin said the society's role is to provide a voice for the non-religious, whom she said tend to be excluded and forgotten.But the Buddhist Federation's Venerable Seck is not worried about the growing pool of non-religious Singaporeans. To him, good values and morals are more important.He said: "As long as there is moral education and the ability to differentiate between what is right and wrong, there will always be common ground among the religious and non-religious
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
If the day comes that Christianity is attractive to people, whether young and old, I submit to you that this Christianity is not Biblical Christianity. The Bible teaches that the cross is an offense. Jesus says the world hates Him because the world hates the light. If Christianity has been so packaged until people are attracted to it, you can be pretty sure that it is not the real thing. It is true that many things can be learned from friends and internet, yet the Bible says that people will not hear the Gospel unless someone tells them the good news. Young people are impressionable, susceptible to peer pressure, and not to say also ignorant about many things. Many are in fact unable to think critically, and yet pride themselves as being reasonable to reject religion in general, and Christianity in particular. Never mind that there are also many Christians in academia and highly qualified as scientists and in other areas of disciplines. Lastly, people are inherently religious, so those who shun religion are simply trading one religion with another. Secular humanism/atheism is the religion that many are embracing. Some may take issue and say atheism is not a religion…but substance rules over form..these atheists are every bit as religious in the beliefs they have and the worldview they embrace. And it requires faith no less!
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
I personally have no interest in joining any religious group, but looking around, Christianity is most apt at catching and growing their flock, in Singapore. Just look at the "megachurches." They've got a formula that appeals to the young and trendy. In this, Buddhism and Hinduism are really lacking - botak monks, in medieval robes, chanting ancient rhymes that sound like death warmed over. By comparison, the megachurches have well-heeled pastors, with slick hairstyles, electric bands, catchy music. Spiritual or not, doesn't matter, it appeals.

Cheers!

If the day comes that Christianity is attractive to people, whether young and old, I submit to you that this Christianity is not Biblical Christianity. The Bible teaches that the cross is an offense. Jesus says the world hates Him because the world hates the light. If Christianity has been so packaged until people are attracted to it, you can be pretty sure that it is not the real thing. It is true that many things can be learned from friends and internet, yet the Bible says that people will not hear the Gospel unless someone tells them the good news. Young people are impressionable, susceptible to peer pressure, and not to say also ignorant about many things. Many are in fact unable to think critically, and yet pride themselves as being reasonable to reject religion in general, and Christianity in particular. Never mind that there are also many Christians in academia and highly qualified as scientists and in other areas of disciplines. Lastly, people are inherently religious, so those who shun religion are simply trading one religion with another. Secular humanism/atheism is the religion that many are embracing. Some may take issue and say atheism is not a religion…but substance rules over form..these atheists are every bit as religious in the beliefs they have and the worldview they embrace. And it requires faith no less!
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
I personally have no interest in joining any religious group, but looking around, Christianity is most apt at catching and growing their flock, in Singapore. Just look at the "megachurches." They've got a formula that appeals to the young and trendy. In this, Buddhism and Hinduism are really lacking - botak monks, in medieval robes, chanting ancient rhymes that sound like death warmed over. By comparison, the megachurches have well-heeled pastors, with slick hairstyles, electric bands, catchy music. Spiritual or not, doesn't matter, it appeals.

Cheers!

Hmmm….so now you are of the view that at least Christianity is attractive to some people? Anyway I agree with you that many churches are trying hard to market themselves…unfortunately this market mentality has also opened the door to compromise. Anyway, I am not telling you to join any religious group, as it is you already have a religion aka secular humanism aka atheism. But do seriously reflect about the existence of God, if you have never done so. Don’t come up with 101 reasons why you believe there is no God. Rather think of the top few or best reasons why you believe there is no God and we can examine them. The rest are just distractions…if you get what I mean.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
I never said there was NO God. Somewhere down the road, you assumed that (that I am atheist). I am just not convinced that the current thoughts of "God" are right. There are too many flaws and inconsistencies. We, at this point in time, are yet able to describe, or fathom this entity, we've only just made up words like "creator" "the almighty" because this entity is big, vast, supreme. But in what way? We do not know. Certain portions of our society claim to know and understand god because they are familiar with the Bible, but again, these are all man-made notions. Most cultures on Earth fashion God as an elderly male, maybe because of its authoritical status. But nobody knows. Does this entity God care what happens to our societies? Will he (how come he?) intervene? We relate his feeling/sentiments as though he were human, and seek his "grace" and compassion to bestow us with good fortune, good harvests, a happy life, and so on! Does it matter to him? What about the folklore of other cultures? Do they contribute to our understanding of God? Do animals (like dogs) have an idea of their "creator"? In their mind, is God four-legged? Winged? We do not know many things, so at best we only assume. And hope.

Cheers!

Hmmm….so now you are of the view that at least Christianity is attractive to some people? Anyway I agree with you that many churches are trying hard to market themselves…unfortunately this market mentality has also opened the door to compromise. Anyway, I am not telling you to join any religious group, as it is you already have a religion aka secular humanism aka atheism. But do seriously reflect about the existence of God, if you have never done so. Don’t come up with 101 reasons why you believe there is no God. Rather think of the top few or best reasons why you believe there is no God and we can examine them. The rest are just distractions…if you get what I mean.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
I never said there was NO God. Somewhere down the road, you assumed that (that I am atheist). I am just not convinced that the current thoughts of "God" are right. There are too many flaws and inconsistencies. We, at this point in time, are yet able to describe, or fathom this entity, we've only just made up words like "creator" "the almighty" because this entity is big, vast, supreme. But in what way? We do not know. Certain portions of our society claim to know and understand god because they are familiar with the Bible, but again, these are all man-made notions. Most cultures on Earth fashion God as an elderly male, maybe because of its authoritical status. But nobody knows. Does this entity God care what happens to our societies? Will he (how come he?) intervene? We relate his feeling/sentiments as though he were human, and seek his "grace" and compassion to bestow us with good fortune, good harvests, a happy life, and so on! Does it matter to him? What about the folklore of other cultures? Do they contribute to our understanding of God? Do animals (like dogs) have an idea of their "creator"? In their mind, is God four-legged? Winged? We do not know many things, so at best we only assume. And hope.

Cheers!

I assumed you are an atheist because most of your reasons or arguments for unbelief are no different from standard atheist fare. Whether you think current notions about God is right or wrong, set it aside first. Let’s deal with whether you believe God exists. The simplest definition of God is that He is the Supreme Being, Creator. This least we have to agree on…otherwise nothing to go on.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
I suppose my answer to whether God exists or not would be - I don't know. But if he (or she/it?) does, we do not know it.

Cheers!

I assumed you are an atheist because most of your reasons or arguments for unbelief are no different from standard atheist fare. Whether you think current notions about God is right or wrong, set it aside first. Let’s deal with whether you believe God exists. The simplest definition of God is that He is the Supreme Being, Creator. This least we have to agree on…otherwise nothing to go on.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
I suppose my answer to whether God exists or not would be - I don't know. But if he (or she/it?) does, we do not know it.

Cheers!

Your first answer would be an admission of ignorance, basically it does not answer the question of God’s existence, it is more an answer as to your own state of knowledge. As for your second answer, are you saying that that it is impossible to know if God exist? Because if you are, then you are making an absolute claim to knowledge here, that you possess such vast amount of knowledge to be able to claim that man simply cannot know that God exist. Do you wish to amend your answer?
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
I do not wish to make it more complex than it is. I will try to explain my stance. Firstly, nobody has seen God. There is a biblical story of God appearing as a burning bush to Moses one night on a mountain, and there was no one else to witness. So, we have no idea what God looks like. Through history, God's "appearances" are interpreted through his works, his interventions in human affairs, and has been described as certain animals, weather phenomena, but sledom as a being. Images of "God" seated in heaven, and surrounded by angels, drawn by Renaissance period artists are more a display of the artists' talent than a true image of God. So, with these, we do not know what God looks like. The Bible says God made us in his image, but does not say it is a physical image. It may be an image of consciousness, ethical or moral image, who knows? So we guess, or speculate of God, and conjure what God is. The ancient Jews made all sorts of sacrifices to appease God, until the story of Jesus, who as a teacher, taught people what God was, and God became a humane being, loving, caring. This is the best picture of God we have. And it is the popular image of God that will persist, because it jives with humanity. So this God that we have, is something that we have created. Just like we have created rules and regulations for our societies to function, we have created a God for our comfort. This is what I know, beyond this, I suppose, I will have to journey into my next life to find out.

Cheers!

Your first answer would be an admission of ignorance, basically it does not answer the question of God’s existence, it is more an answer as to your own state of knowledge. As for your second answer, are you saying that that it is impossible to know if God exist? Because if you are, then you are making an absolute claim to knowledge here, that you possess such vast amount of knowledge to be able to claim that man simply cannot know that God exist. Do you wish to amend your answer?
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
I do not wish to make it more complex than it is. I will try to explain my stance. Firstly, nobody has seen God. There is a biblical story of God appearing as a burning bush to Moses one night on a mountain, and there was no one else to witness. So, we have no idea what God looks like. Through history, God's "appearances" are interpreted through his works, his interventions in human affairs, and has been described as certain animals, weather phenomena, but sledom as a being. Images of "God" seated in heaven, and surrounded by angels, drawn by Renaissance period artists are more a display of the artists' talent than a true image of God. So, with these, we do not know what God looks like. The Bible says God made us in his image, but does not say it is a physical image. It may be an image of consciousness, ethical or moral image, who knows? So we guess, or speculate of God, and conjure what God is. The ancient Jews made all sorts of sacrifices to appease God, until the story of Jesus, who as a teacher, taught people what God was, and God became a humane being, loving, caring. This is the best picture of God we have. And it is the popular image of God that will persist, because it jives with humanity. So this God that we have, is something that we have created. Just like we have created rules and regulations for our societies to function, we have created a God for our comfort. This is what I know, beyond this, I suppose, I will have to journey into my next life to find out.

Cheers!

You said nobody has seen God. Well, that is true, but yet not completely true. God is spirit, and thus invisible. So it is true that there is no way anyone can see God. The only way anyone can “see” God is when God chose to manifest Himself to our naked eyes. You have alluded to the burning bush, and that is how God “appeared” to Moses. You have also rightly said that Jesus is the best picture of God we have. Jesus said that if His disciples have seen Him they have seen the Father. What an amazing, if not audacious claim! The book of Romans also points to the created things, that the invisible things of God are clearly seen in the visible thing that make up the created universe. When we look at the universe (cursed and fallen as it is) we can infer many things about God. In the same way that when we look at a painting or work of art or design we can infer some things about the artist.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Well, in other parts of the world, God appears in other forms, like Monkey, Pig, Elephant, Cow.......which one is really God?

Cheers!

You said nobody has seen God. Well, that is true, but yet not completely true. God is spirit, and thus invisible. So it is true that there is no way anyone can see God. The only way anyone can “see” God is when God chose to manifest Himself to our naked eyes. You have alluded to the burning bush, and that is how God “appeared” to Moses. You have also rightly said that Jesus is the best picture of God we have. Jesus said that if His disciples have seen Him they have seen the Father. What an amazing, if not audacious claim! The book of Romans also points to the created things, that the invisible things of God are clearly seen in the visible thing that make up the created universe. When we look at the universe (cursed and fallen as it is) we can infer many things about God. In the same way that when we look at a painting or work of art or design we can infer some things about the artist.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
Well, in other parts of the world, God appears in other forms, like Monkey, Pig, Elephant, Cow.......which one is really God?

Cheers!

Are you asking a serious question? Or asking in jest? Because if in jest then I should not waste my time answering (not casting pearls before swine). But if you are serious, then we proceed. But just to answer you this time, none of them are. For the simple reason that God has told us not to worship the created things which is tantamount to idolatry, which God hates.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
So, is the God of Moses, to be everybody's god as well? Different peoples believe in different Gods. If one is Christian, then having an artefact of some Hindu deity is idolatry? Not art appreciation? To you, the Monkey God may be a heretic idol, but to someone else, Hanuman is as much a God as your Yahweh! Who are you to say that your God is true, and other gods are false? BTW, I think you should be saying that God loves, not hates!

Cheers!

Are you asking a serious question? Or asking in jest? Because if in jest then I should not waste my time answering (not casting pearls before swine). But if you are serious, then we proceed. But just to answer you this time, none of them are. For the simple reason that God has told us not to worship the created things which is tantamount to idolatry, which God hates.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
So, is the God of Moses, to be everybody's god as well? Different peoples believe in different Gods. If one is Christian, then having an artefact of some Hindu deity is idolatry? Not art appreciation? To you, the Monkey God may be a heretic idol, but to someone else, Hanuman is as much a God as your Yahweh! Who are you to say that your God is true, and other gods are false? BTW, I think you should be saying that God loves, not hates!

Cheers!

You asked if the God of Moses is to be everybody’s God as well. I think you can answer your own question. Let me guide you, since God is the Creator of the universe, do you think God is to be everybody’s God as well? We know for a fact that different people believe in different gods. But the bigger question is whether we live in a monotheistic world (one God), a polytheistic world (many gods), or a materialistic world (no God). Which of these worldviews is true? You asked who am I to say that my God is true? You can just about ask the same question to the atheist as to who is he to say that all gods or God is false? To ask “who are you to say” is in my view an irrational question to ask. Are you asking if I am an authority figure, or are you questioning whether I have even the right to say what I believe is true? Because this question can be asked of just about everybody. Lastly, to say that God loves and not God hates is a wrong view of God, because God does hate certain things, idolatry being one of them. God hates sin. God hates evil. God hates injustice etc.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Since there are so many Gods out there, the question then should be whether monotheists have got their brains right or not! Your view is that of One God, which from observation of your views, is the God of the Jews To me, God is a man-made entity, so it can be interpreted depending on who conjured up that idea of the God. For the Vikings, it is Odin, and his family, who rule the heavens, and determine the fate of humans on earth, for the ancient Egyptians, it is the Sun-God, and his family who are in charge, for me, I think it is us who determines our own future, to a certain extent, the rest, is up to the forces of nature. Which nobody controls. God hates certain things, so, if God is God, what is he doing about it? Let nature run its course?

Cheers!

You asked if the God of Moses is to be everybody’s God as well. I think you can answer your own question. Let me guide you, since God is the Creator of the universe, do you think God is to be everybody’s God as well? We know for a fact that different people believe in different gods. But the bigger question is whether we live in a monotheistic world (one God), a polytheistic world (many gods), or a materialistic world (no God). Which of these worldviews is true? You asked who am I to say that my God is true? You can just about ask the same question to the atheist as to who is he to say that all gods or God is false? To ask “who are you to say” is in my view an irrational question to ask. Are you asking if I am an authority figure, or are you questioning whether I have even the right to say what I believe is true? Because this question can be asked of just about everybody. Lastly, to say that God loves and not God hates is a wrong view of God, because God does hate certain things, idolatry being one of them. God hates sin. God hates evil. God hates injustice etc.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
Since there are so many Gods out there, the question then should be whether monotheists have got their brains right or not! Your view is that of One God, which from observation of your views, is the God of the Jews To me, God is a man-made entity, so it can be interpreted depending on who conjured up that idea of the God. For the Vikings, it is Odin, and his family, who rule the heavens, and determine the fate of humans on earth, for the ancient Egyptians, it is the Sun-God, and his family who are in charge, for me, I think it is us who determines our own future, to a certain extent, the rest, is up to the forces of nature. Which nobody controls. God hates certain things, so, if God is God, what is he doing about it? Let nature run its course?

Cheers!

Just because there are people who believe there are many gods, it does not mean that it is true that there are many gods. Anyway, you don’t believe that to be true, right? So why ask the question of whether my brain is right or not? Why not pose that question to the polytheist as well? Or even to yourself as an atheist? As an atheist you would have to conclude that God is a man-made entity, a fiction of one’s imagination. It’s not because you have produced evidence that man has invented the God of the Bible, but because your atheistic worldview compels you to make such a conclusion, even if there is no evidence for it, other than your insisting on your opinion or parroting the opinions of others who don’t know any better. You said you can determine your own future to a certain extent. You are wrong. You cannot determine your birth date, neither can you determine your death date, unless of course you choose to commit suicide. What you can do is to plan for your future taking intentional steps at the present moment. You said the forces of nature is controlled by nobody. Well, the God who made the universe and establish the laws of nature is in full control of His creation. God is upholding the order of creation by His Word. Why are the laws of nature uniform across space and time? As an atheist you have no answer. Science also provides no answer. But the correct answer is because God has established it to be so. God established the laws of nature so of course He “lets nature run its course” but God also intervene at times, which is why we call certain events as miracles.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
There are people who are monotheists, and polytheists. And then there are those who question these and do not find that these are 100% correct. To these people, they just have not drawn any conclusion, in this, I have accepted that there will be questions in my life, I may not know the answer on till my dying day. For those of you who accept the explanation of an almighty, it is because it is the simplest way to answer the many questions - because God said so, and there you have it. An easy (but incomplete way), and because of this, the people in this sector have accepted a whole bunch of idiot explanations, only a simpleton can accept (like much of the Biblical events). During the middle ages, before we invented all the special scopes, carbon dating and all the equipment we have today, we didn't even know the existence of most of the celestial bodies (planets, stars, comets, etc.) we know today, but we already had religion, so we used religion to explain the things we did not understand. Mind you, this is only just knowledge on astronomy, there are other areas like medical science, engineering, etc. that religion had much say too. Today we don't have to. And we are still continuing to grow our knowledge based on science, ration, logic, observance. Not from stories by elders who lived during a more superstitious time. We are a lot more knowledgeable today, but still considered a child in his early stages of learning, because there is still a lot more to discover and learn. Unlike the religious lot, who with their knowledge of the Bible (God's word?) are happy that they already have covered it all!

Cheers!

Just because there are people who believe there are many gods, it does not mean that it is true that there are many gods. Anyway, you don’t believe that to be true, right? So why ask the question of whether my brain is right or not? Why not pose that question to the polytheist as well? Or even to yourself as an atheist? As an atheist you would have to conclude that God is a man-made entity, a fiction of one’s imagination. It’s not because you have produced evidence that man has invented the God of the Bible, but because your atheistic worldview compels you to make such a conclusion, even if there is no evidence for it, other than your insisting on your opinion or parroting the opinions of others who don’t know any better. You said you can determine your own future to a certain extent. You are wrong. You cannot determine your birth date, neither can you determine your death date, unless of course you choose to commit suicide. What you can do is to plan for your future taking intentional steps at the present moment. You said the forces of nature is controlled by nobody. Well, the God who made the universe and establish the laws of nature is in full control of His creation. God is upholding the order of creation by His Word. Why are the laws of nature uniform across space and time? As an atheist you have no answer. Science also provides no answer. But the correct answer is because God has established it to be so. God established the laws of nature so of course He “lets nature run its course” but God also intervene at times, which is why we call certain events as miracles.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
There are people who are monotheists, and polytheists. And then there are those who question these and do not find that these are 100% correct. To these people, they just have not drawn any conclusion, in this, I have accepted that there will be questions in my life, I may not know the answer on till my dying day. For those of you who accept the explanation of an almighty, it is because it is the simplest way to answer the many questions - because God said so, and there you have it. An easy (but incomplete way), and because of this, the people in this sector have accepted a whole bunch of idiot explanations, only a simpleton can accept (like much of the Biblical events). During the middle ages, before we invented all the special scopes, carbon dating and all the equipment we have today, we didn't even know the existence of most of the celestial bodies (planets, stars, comets, etc.) we know today, but we already had religion, so we used religion to explain the things we did not understand. Mind you, this is only just knowledge on astronomy, there are other areas like medical science, engineering, etc. that religion had much say too. Today we don't have to. And we are still continuing to grow our knowledge based on science, ration, logic, observance. Not from stories by elders who lived during a more superstitious time. We are a lot more knowledgeable today, but still considered a child in his early stages of learning, because there is still a lot more to discover and learn. Unlike the religious lot, who with their knowledge of the Bible (God's word?) are happy that they already have covered it all!

Cheers!

It is not a question of whether it is the simplest answer, but whether it is the best, logical answer that best explains what needs explaining. If God is the best answer, or simple answer as you said, why should it be dismissed? So a more complex answer has higher chance of being true, simply because it is complex? That’s illogical to say the least. Besides, the issue isn’t whether the answer is too simple for your liking, but whether it is the right answer.

A Christian does not claim to know all the answers to life. Neither does the Bible provides that. Have you ever heard me saying I know it all? But having said that, the Bible does answers many of the questions in life that we want to know, and because God said so it must be true. Yes, knowledge has progressed and increased. We can go to the moon, we can observe stars and planets. But an atheist have NO ANSWER as to why the universe can be intelligible, can be known. The universe is orderly because God is a God of order and purpose. We can make instruments and calculate distances to high precision. Why? Again because God is a God or order and design. That’s why science went so far in the West but never in the East, all because of the theistic worldview that a divine Mind created the universe. These are documented facts that even the most hardcore atheist cannot deny. An atheist does not like the fact that a Christian always have a better answer to the ultimate questions that he cannot answer. His own atheistic worldview is impotent. He says the Christian is arrogant, yet ironically he is oblivious to his own arrogance to think that man’s reason is supreme and that science will find it all out. As a believer I marvel at the mysteries of Creation. The Bible says God made it all, but yet we are just discovering the complexities and genius of the divine Mind. Think DNA, where does it come from? Information begets information. An atheist in his rebellion would rather arrogantly say “I don’t know but one day we will find out” than to humbly acknowledge that only God could be the Cause. This is hardly a matter of intellectual rigour. It is a heart emotional issue for the atheist. He will not submit to his Creator.
 

Agoraphobic

Alfrescian
Loyal
You have faith. I respect that. But I do not believe your God is the "ultimate" force in the universe. Why should there be an "ultimate" force. Something that started everything. Why? Sometime in the past, we imagined and concocted this notion of God to answer questions we asked. We came up with those notions, not from observation, but from asking and asking, and deducting each step. For example, the atomicists in Ancient Greece - they came up with the idea of the atom as the smallest particle to exist in nature, just from questioning what they came up with. So this was how the idea of God came about too, I presume. And its answered all the questions we had, the mysteries of the world around us and they universe, as far as the eye can see. Now we have developed telescopes and other instruments that can see even farther than our eye could ever see. These things weren't there beforfe - because we couldn't see them, and didn't know they existed. And we have more questions. With each discovery, we uncover more unanswered questions. I can see that it is easier to accept that God made them, and let it be that. But our species is unable to stop there. We just have to keep asking, and keep looking. It is, and will be, never ending. And no one will know it all. That is impossible. But nevertheless, it is a goal.

Cheers!

It is not a question of whether it is the simplest answer, but whether it is the best, logical answer that best explains what needs explaining. If God is the best answer, or simple answer as you said, why should it be dismissed? So a more complex answer has higher chance of being true, simply because it is complex? That’s illogical to say the least. Besides, the issue isn’t whether the answer is too simple for your liking, but whether it is the right answer.

A Christian does not claim to know all the answers to life. Neither does the Bible provides that. Have you ever heard me saying I know it all? But having said that, the Bible does answers many of the questions in life that we want to know, and because God said so it must be true. Yes, knowledge has progressed and increased. We can go to the moon, we can observe stars and planets. But an atheist have NO ANSWER as to why the universe can be intelligible, can be known. The universe is orderly because God is a God of order and purpose. We can make instruments and calculate distances to high precision. Why? Again because God is a God or order and design. That’s why science went so far in the West but never in the East, all because of the theistic worldview that a divine Mind created the universe. These are documented facts that even the most hardcore atheist cannot deny. An atheist does not like the fact that a Christian always have a better answer to the ultimate questions that he cannot answer. His own atheistic worldview is impotent. He says the Christian is arrogant, yet ironically he is oblivious to his own arrogance to think that man’s reason is supreme and that science will find it all out. As a believer I marvel at the mysteries of Creation. The Bible says God made it all, but yet we are just discovering the complexities and genius of the divine Mind. Think DNA, where does it come from? Information begets information. An atheist in his rebellion would rather arrogantly say “I don’t know but one day we will find out” than to humbly acknowledge that only God could be the Cause. This is hardly a matter of intellectual rigour. It is a heart emotional issue for the atheist. He will not submit to his Creator.
 

Frodo

Alfrescian
Loyal
You have faith. I respect that. But I do not believe your God is the "ultimate" force in the universe. Why should there be an "ultimate" force. Something that started everything. Why? Sometime in the past, we imagined and concocted this notion of God to answer questions we asked. We came up with those notions, not from observation, but from asking and asking, and deducting each step. For example, the atomicists in Ancient Greece - they came up with the idea of the atom as the smallest particle to exist in nature, just from questioning what they came up with. So this was how the idea of God came about too, I presume. And its answered all the questions we had, the mysteries of the world around us and they universe, as far as the eye can see. Now we have developed telescopes and other instruments that can see even farther than our eye could ever see. These things weren't there beforfe - because we couldn't see them, and didn't know they existed. And we have more questions. With each discovery, we uncover more unanswered questions. I can see that it is easier to accept that God made them, and let it be that. But our species is unable to stop there. We just have to keep asking, and keep looking. It is, and will be, never ending. And no one will know it all. That is impossible. But nevertheless, it is a goal.

Cheers!

The thing is, you have faith too. Beliefs and faith are part and parcel of our makeup as humans. The difference is in the object of faith. You asked why there should be an ultimate force (I call is CAUSE) in the universe. Well, logic demands it! You assumed again, without evidence, that in the past humans imagined God into existence. This is your way to explain the existence of God, though it is shot full of holes, not least there is no shred of evidence given in support of it. But logic demands that every effect has a cause. The universe as a whole is an effect. The universe is a contingent entity, it need not exist…but it does. An effect demands a cause, that’s simple logic. Therefore God is the uncaused Cause that caused the universe to exist at a point in time. Thus the universe and time have a simultaneous beginning. The ancient Greeks talk about the atom, but no eye has seen it. Bet you didn’t know that the Bible says that the visible things are made of things invisible or unseen (Hebrews). This can be an apt reference to atoms too since it is consistent with what we know in science. As to astronomy, the things that have been made have always been there, even if we cannot see them with the naked eye. The universe is made for discovery, that’s a thought you should reflect over deeply. Only humans can embark on such a discovery, nothing else in the world can do that, not even our so-called nearest cousin Charlie Ape! Did you know that with each discovery all the more we have to acknowledge the hand of God? Before we could peek into the cell, people thought it was simple cell. Now we know its anything but simple! The God of the gaps argument, so favoured by atheists, is a dead and impotent argument. Whatever knowledge we have…all points to God. Long time atheist Sir Anthony Flew promoted and defended atheism for almost his entire life, but became a theist (not a Christian though) by the overwhelming evidence from the life sciences. To him, God is the only plausible explanation for the DNA.
 
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