• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Part II

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Obscenities free version

Mindef explains stance on NSF Dominique Sarron Lee's death

MINDEF's Reply

Arising from the coroner's findings of fact, the Attorney-General's Chambers (AGC) decided not to prosecute anyone as the cause of death was an unforeseen allergic reaction that was unlikely to have been predicted.

As such, the AGC informed the Ministry of Defence (Mindef) to consider taking disciplinary action against the servicemen who had breached training safety regulations. Mindef has done so, with penalties consistent with other servicemen who have committed similar offences, including fines and delay in promotions....

...It would be wrong to punish SAF servicemen beyond the level of offence which has been determined by independent and impartial judicial processes. Mindef/SAF would be overstepping its powers and would be legally challenged.

Most importantly, it would be unfair to the two SAF regulars. In particular, the level of punishment has to take into account the coroner's findings that Pte Lee's fatal allergic reaction was unlikely to have been predicted....

From BG Chan who tried to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities, half-truths and duplicities, and refusal to specify what the "punishment" was to finally, a carefully crafted admittance by this Ms Lim Chuen Ni from MINDEF that those two Captains were given nothing more than a slap on their wrists. This dishonest reply is audacious and breathtaking in its attempt to mislead the public, as BG Chan had done earlier, with half-truths, misleading statements and duplicities.

The AGC's decision not to prosecute Captain Najib Hanuk Muhammad Jalal and Captain Chia Thye Siong for a criminal offence under the Penal Code has nothing to do with the SAF's absolute and independent right to prosecute these two Captains under military law under the SAF Act (Cap 295).

Ms Lim Chuen Ni and MINDEF are being dishonest and disingenuous in trying to conflate these two separate Acts as being one and the same, and in attempting to conflate the separate offices of the AG and Director, Legal Services, MINDEF as being one and the same. In dishonestly trying to do so, they have misled the public. Whilst the SAF did eventually "prosecute" these two, it has chosen to do so, very suspiciously, through a "Summary Trial" instead of a "General Court Martial".

BG Chan’s Facebook statement on 7 March 2016 stating that these two were "summarily tried" for "negligent performance of lawful order or duty" would suggest that these two officers were tried under "Section 17, Disobedience of, non-compliance with lawful orders, etc" or "Section 21, Disobedience of general of orders" of the SAF Act (Cap 295). There's nothing to stop the SAF from court-martialing any serviceman under these two Sections (or any sections in the SAF Act for that matter) where the maximum penalty for these two Sections are a maximum of a 7 year imprisonment and 2 year imprisonment (respectively) and not a miserable maximum of a $3,000 fine or a delayed promotion.

An ST is generally for "light" offences, hence the "lighter" punishments. A GCM is for "heavier" offences", hence the "heavier" punishments that include imprisonment. Take an example of the common AWOL (Section 22 of the SAF Act). It can be dealt with summarily for a "short" AWOL of one week where a light punishment of a small fine, restriction of privileges, etc will be meted out. In a more serious AWOL case of say, one year, this very same offence of AWOL will be dealt with through a GCM where sentences of up to 2 years imprisonment can be meted out to the Awolee by the GCM.

Any offences under the SAF Act can be tried summarily or through a GCM. The decision to try a serviceman under ST or GCM largely depends on the severity of an offence or what the offence has led to. In this case, the offence has led to a death. It warrants a heavier punishment. The two Captains have not committed the equivalent of an AWOL of one week where a light punishment is adequate. They have committed an equivalent of an AWOL of one year where both should be sentenced to imprisonment.

The question that arises is why they have been tried in a "Summary Trial" and not through a "General Military Court (General Court Martial)". Ms Lim Chuen Ni's and MINDEF's latest misleading, dishonest and duplicitous reply is not good enough. There must have been a cover up of some kind and for some suspicious reasons which need to be unearthed.


Each death of our servicemen is greatly regretted but when these incidents arise, it is even more important that we maintain societal trust and integrity in respecting the due independent judicial processes to determine the facts and mete out the appropriate punishment where required.

Lim Chuen Ni (Ms)
Director, Public Communications
Mindef Communications Organisation
Ministry of Defence

Ms Lim Chuen Ni is clearly blind and hence, unable to see the obvious. The "punishment" meted out to Captain Najib Hanuk Muhammad Jalal and Captain Chia Thye Siong did not commensurate with their offence and the outcome of their offence, i.e. the death of a soldier. It's precisely because of this that there is public disquiet and a loss of "societal trust" in the integrity of MINDEF and its self-serving officers.
 

yahoo55

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Probably the only way to force this issue now is if Dominique Lee's family appeal the court's decision. But so far it looks like his family has given up.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

all courts in singapore are kangaroo courts,u are either predetermined to be guilty or innocent before you go thru the court process.

what amazes me is the lengths and efforts SAF goes to use the judiciary system and the media to protect their own personal interests.
[video=youtube;CJinWua98NA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJinWua98NA[/video]
 
Last edited:

tanwahtiu

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

either one of these 2 officers belonged to the white horse circle of PAP.

Give face to the PAP polumpahers ... insider trading?




Obscenities free version


From BG Chan who tried to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities, half-truths and duplicities, and refusal to specify what the "punishment" was to finally, a carefully crafted admittance by this Ms Lim Chuen Ni from MINDEF that those two Captains were given nothing more than a slap on their wrists. This dishonest reply is audacious and breathtaking in its attempt to mislead the public, as BG Chan had done earlier, with half-truths, misleading statements and duplicities.

"punishment" meted out to Captain Najib Hanuk Muhammad Jalal and Captain Chia Thye Siong did not commensurate with their offence and the outcome of their offence, i.e. the death of a soldier. It's precisely because of this that there is public disquiet and a loss of "societal trust" in the integrity of MINDEF and its self-serving officers.
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

The punishment is commensurate with the offense.

The soldier died because he had asthma. Nobody else was adversely affected.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

"It would be wrong to punish SAF servicemen beyond the level of offence which has been determined by independent and impartial judicial processes. Mindef/SAF would be overstepping its powers and would be legally challenged.

Lim Chuen Ni (Ms)
Director, Public Communications
Mindef Communications Organisation
Ministry of Defence "

I read this statement a couple of times again to try to see it from this woman's / MINDEF's POV and what they are trying to blabber about. The terms of reference of the inquiry of the "independent and impartial judicial processes" did not and cannot specify the type of punishment to be meted out. The SAF Act is the one that specifies very explicitly the type of punishment that can be meted out. So, if the maximum punishment for an offence is no more than a maximum of 7 years imprisonment and an offender is sentenced to 8 years, then this can be "legally challenged" and rightfully so.

But if the punishment is 7 years or less as clearly specified in the Act, what "overstepping its powers" is there??? And on what grounds can a "challenge" be mounted??? Wrong punishment??? At most an appeal can be made against the sentence but not a "challenge". An appeal is not a "challenge".

The conclusion I reached is no different from before. These MINDEF arseholes are dishonesty trying to pull wool over the eyes of the public. MINDEF's reasons for not court martialing these two idiots need to be unearthed. What is it that it is trying to cover up or conceal? And who is the Supervising Officer (OC) and CO at the time of the offence? The Supervising Officer is normally implicated when things go wrong but nothing has been heard so far about the SO.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I thought saf couldnt be legally challenged or sued in any court of law?
 

Asterix

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

all courts in singapore are kangaroo courts,u are either predetermined to be guilty or innocent before you go thru the court process.

what amazes me is the lengths and efforts SAF goes to use the judiciary system and the media to protect their own personal interests.
[video=youtube;CJinWua98NA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJinWua98NA[/video]

Mr. Bean agrees ..........

[video=youtube;1BxFlmb6S6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxFlmb6S6E[/video]
 

virus

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

either one of these 2 officers belonged to the white horse circle of PAP.

Give face to the PAP polumpahers ... insider trading?

who dare to punish najib?

he will strap a C40 around you and kabroom.. who dare to punish najib?
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

The punishment is commensurate with the offense.

The soldier died because he had asthma. Nobody else was adversely affected.


One again, this is an extract of Bargain's statement in Parliament.

'Ministerial Statement (to Parliament) on National Service Training Deaths
Minister for Defence Dr Ng Eng Hen, 14 November 2012

...Based on the exercise layout, not more than two smoke grenades should have been used, but the Platoon Commander had thrown six grenades instead. The COI opined that "if the TSR had been complied with, PTE Lee and his platoon mates would not have been subjected to smoke that was as dense as that during the incident, and... for as long as they were during the incident"and that "reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke."

Reduced smoke = Reduced risk of adverse reaction = No deaths (as in other previous exercises where this same soldier was not affected by the smoke thrown)

More smoke = More risk of adverse reaction = Death (as occurred in this exercise)
 

kryonlight

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

The "punishment" meted out to Captain Najib Hanuk Muhammad Jalal and Captain Chia Thye Siong did not commensurate with their offence and the outcome of their offence, i.e. the death of a soldier. It's precisely because of this that there is public disquiet and a loss of "societal trust" in the integrity of MINDEF and its self-serving officers.

LOL! Since when did MINDEF had any integrity? I already dumped MINDEF and SAF into the rubbish bin 19 years ago.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

How do you reconcile what you wrote below with the Coroner's findings which is central to cases of unnatural deaths and the basis of proceeding with right and appropriate prosecution if any? The Coroner is not part of Mindef. The IO comes from the Police.


Obscenities free version



From BG Chan who tried to mislead and deceive the public with technicalities, half-truths and duplicities, and refusal to specify what the "punishment" was to finally, a carefully crafted admittance by this Ms Lim Chuen Ni from MINDEF that those two Captains were given nothing more than a slap on their wrists. This dishonest reply is audacious and breathtaking in its attempt to mislead the public, as BG Chan had done earlier, with half-truths, misleading statements and duplicities.

The AGC's decision not to prosecute Captain Najib Hanuk Muhammad Jalal and Captain Chia Thye Siong for a criminal offence under the Penal Code has nothing to do with the SAF's absolute and independent right to prosecute these two Captains under military law under the SAF Act (Cap 295).
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

This whole case one big wayang! Hiding behind military law, confidentiality,...etc. don't think justice has been done. Do u??
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

How do you reconcile what you wrote below with the Coroner's findings which is central to cases of unnatural deaths and the basis of proceeding with right and appropriate prosecution if any? The Coroner is not part of Mindef. The IO comes from the Police.

Part I of II...


Two Inquiries were held into Pte Lee's death.

Ms Lim Chuen Ni/MINDEF misled the public by referring only to one in their reply; i.e. the Coroner's Inquiry (CI). Ms Lim's/MINDEF's statement that "it would be wrong to punish SAF servicemen beyond the level of offence which has been determined by independent and impartial judicial processes" and that "Mindef/SAF would be overstepping its powers and would be legally challenged" based on the finding of this one Coroner's Inquiry, is not only misleading but utterly dishonest.

It is not the CI's role to determine the "level of offence" in any CI held. In fact, it is not permitted by law to do so. The CI's role is restricted (Sect 27 of the Coroners Act, Cap 63A) to inquiring only into "how, when and where the deceased came by his death". The CI is not allowed to "frame a finding in such a way as to determine any question of criminal, civil or disciplinary liability".

The CI concluded that the soldier's death was caused by "acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes". This is not in dispute and is not being contested.

To be continued...
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part II of II...

Now to the second Inquiry held that Ms Lim Chuen Ni/MINDEF dishonestly omitted to mention in their reply. This was the Committee of Inquiry (COI) convened by the Armed Forces Council to "independently investigate fully the circumstances leading to death" and "to determine the contributory events or persons" of the soldier, PTE Lee Rui Feng Dominique Sarron. These were some of the COI's findings (note "COI", not "CI")*:


1. The COI found that the number of smoke grenades used in the exercise exceeded the limit specified in training safety regulations.

2. Based on the exercise layout, not more than two smoke grenades should have been used, but the Platoon Commander had thrown six grenades instead.

3. If the TSR had been complied with, PTE Lee and his platoon mates would not have been subjected to smoke that was as dense as that during the incident, and... for as long as they were during the incident. (Note the use of the definitive and conclusive "would"; it's not a tentative and inconclusive "could" or "might") .

4. Reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke. (Again, note the use of the definitive and conclusive "would" and not a tentative and inconclusive "could" or "might")

5. The cause of death of PTE Lee resulted from inhalation of the fumes from the smoke grenades used in the incident.

6. The COI is of the opinion that the actions of the Platoon Commander, a Regular Captain, were negligent as he was aware of the specific TSR but did not comply with it.​

(*Ministerial Statement on National Service Training Deaths to Parliament on 04 Nov 2012 by Dr Ng Eng Hen)


Dr Ng further added:

"Following procedures and due process, the Chief Military Prosecutor will determine if these personnel should be subject to a General Court Martial (GCM), to establish their degree of culpability and if found guilty, mete out the appropriate punishment. Police investigations are also on-going to determine whether to prosecute the personnel involved in Civil Court."​

Whilst the CI concluded that Pte Lee's "allergic reaction" was "unlikely to have been predicted", the COI found (if not stated the obvious) that "reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke". The question that arises is why MINDEF chose to deal with these two officers in a Summary Trial and not a General Court Martial for their negligence which was, as determined by the COI, a contributory factor to the death of Pte Lee.

In November 2013, MINDEF court martialled (note, not Summary Trial but General Court Martial) a soldier and he was sentenced to detention for urinating on an officer's bed as part of his ORD celebration.

So we have one situation in which a mattress got wet from being urinated on and the culprit was court martialled and sentenced to detention. We have another in which a soldier died due to the negligence of two culprits who got away with nothing more than, as finally disclosed (when it could no longer be hidden as it has appeared online and in this forum), a fine and a delayed promotion.

The life of a soldier must surely be worth more than a wet mattress.
 
Last edited:

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Its obvious that Mindef stitched themselves up with their COI. Familiar with Sec 27, the spirit of its is across the Commonwealth but it is not superfluous and has a bearing when criminal prosecution or civil suit is taken up.

As the chap who was sentenced to detention, I hope you do realise the meaning of malice and that urinating on the mattress does form any part of the training doctrine. When the officer threw the extra 4, I am sure he did not do it to harm his trainees. Those who caused death due to negligence are normally prosecuted in the criminal court by AG. There are numerous cases over the years and these include officers. The only ones in the detention barracks are there for lessor offences.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Its obvious that Mindef stitched themselves up with their COI. Familiar with Sec 27, the spirit of its is across the Commonwealth but it is not superfluous and has a bearing when criminal prosecution or civil suit is taken up.

I am not referring to civil suit or criminal prosecution under the Penal Code in Civil Court. I am referring to military offences in breach of the SAF Act. The AGC's determination that the negligence of the two officers does not constitute a civil offence to be tried before a civil court does not automatically mean their negligence are non military offences or that their negligence are less serious offences under military law.

As the chap who was sentenced to detention, I hope you do realise the meaning of malice and that urinating on the mattress does form any part of the training doctrine. When the officer threw the extra 4, I am sure he did not do it to harm his trainees. Those who caused death due to negligence are normally prosecuted in the criminal court by AG. There are numerous cases over the years and these include officers. The only ones in the detention barracks are there for lessor offences.

The absence of "wilfulness" or malice is not the only determinant of the "seriousness" of an offence. The outcome of an offence is also a determinant. Someone caught giving/accepting a bribe of $1 may be let off with a verbal warning without being charged. Another caught with giving/accepting a $200 bribe may be jailed 6 weeks. Another caught giving/accepting a bribe of $US1.4 million may be be jailed 10 years.

And it should be in this case due to the severity of the outcome (death) and based on the findings of "negligence" by the COI. The accusations/findings of negligence should be tested before a Military Court and not treated as a minor disciplinary issue which is what Summary Trials are for.

Ms Teoh Ai Lin, Director Legal Services or whoever was the Director of Legal Services, MINDEF who was in charge during the period when this decision was taken needs to be investigated to rule out corruption, conflict of interest, political interference or interference of any kind being the reason/s why these two officers were not court martialled or charged under a more "relevant/serious" charge like Section 41 of the SAF Act which states:


Endangering life or property

41. Every person subject to military law who does an act in relation to any thing or substance that may be dangerous to life or property, which act causes, or is likely to cause, loss of life or bodily injury to any person or causes, or is likely to cause, damage to or destruction of any property shall —

(a) if he acted wilfully, be guilty of an offence and be liable on conviction by a subordinate military court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or any less punishment authorised by this Act; and

(b) if he acted negligently, be guilty of an offence and be liable on conviction by a subordinate military court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or any less punishment authorised by this Act.
 
Last edited:

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par


Part I of II...


Two Inquiries were held into Pte Lee's death.

Ms Lim Chuen Ni/MINDEF misled the public by referring only to one in their reply; i.e. the Coroner's Inquiry (CI). Ms Lim's/MINDEF's statement that "it would be wrong to punish SAF servicemen beyond the level of offence which has been determined by independent and impartial judicial processes" and that "Mindef/SAF would be overstepping its powers and would be legally challenged" based on the finding of this one Coroner's Inquiry, is not only misleading but utterly dishonest.

It is not the CI's role to determine the "level of offence" in any CI held. In fact, it is not permitted by law to do so. The CI's role is restricted (Sect 27 of the Coroners Act, Cap 63A) to inquiring only into "how, when and where the deceased came by his death". The CI is not allowed to "frame a finding in such a way as to determine any question of criminal, civil or disciplinary liability".

The CI concluded that the soldier's death was caused by "acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes". This is not in dispute and is not being contested.

To be continued...

Hi PTADER, you have to realize that as with most things in PAP run singapore, the letter and spirit of the law means nothing when it comes to actual justice. The PAP Kangaroo courts and such justice systems as MINDEF CM are all already deeply subverted to the whims and fancies of the MIW. In this case, I will give my 2 cents, as a a former SAF Officer who has participated in the Court Martial process as a defending "attorney" for the accused. Bearing in mind that its been some years since I have departed the SAF and that I understand the SAF Legal system has greatly expanded in the time since I left.

1) If the case has been approved for a Court Martial, that means the accused is already 100% going to be found guilty. In all the court martials I have attended, and speaking with other senior officers that I used to consult on some cases, no one has ever won a case. The SAF always wins and the accused always go to DB. The result is already pre-determined. With this in mind, do you understand now why these 2 officers were not court martialed and instead given ST? They would have been found guilty ultimately, and because the SAF is not interested in bucking the trend of acquitting these 2 officers, its better not to bring them to CM in the first place.

2) Some of the cases I was involved with were so trivial, such as a NSman stole and then sold his helmet, and a minor fender bender with no injuries, and yet in these cases, the personnel got court martialed and send to DB. For sure, these 2 officers should have been CM too for the much more serious offence of killing the kid during training.

3) There are 2 standards in the SAF. One for NSmen and one for sign on regulars. These 2 officers were regulars, and so, protection is accorded to them to save their rice bowl. If the 2 officers were NSmen LTA or 2LTs, I guarantee you they would have been Court Martialed and send to DB.

4) This lawsuit brought on by the family could have made one simple but very telling change. They should have sued Capt. Najib Jalal and MAJOR Chia Thye Siong. That's right. Despite the so called punishment meted out to the 2 officers, within one year of the incident, one of them had been promoted to Major. The family should have name Major Chia and not Capt Chia in the lawsuit. This would have made light of the so called unfair punishment to these two. The SAF thought so little of the deed done by these 2 idiots that they had the audacity to promote one of them up the ladder. Family should have brought this up.

5) In all Court Martial hearings, there are 3 judges on the panel. 2 of the judges are actually sitting High Court or District court judges and are doing the CM as part of their Reservist duty. That is why you can see that Chief Justice Chan Sek Keong is also the Judge Advocate General of the SAF. I know of no other country where this is the case. The 3rd person is usually a Capt rank from SIB of the Provost unit. He is the one that is very familiar with the case. The other 2 frankly have no time and effort to read the file and acquaint themselves on the salient points of the trial. They are fully pre-occupied with their regular day job and most of the time, I see their faces are damn tulan to be in the Court Martial room. The 3rd officer basically tells them what the verdict will be and how many months or years to sentence the accused. And that is how they do it. Its all pre-determined before hand. Therefore, its not going to be even remotely possible that these 2 will ever show up at a CM.

6) It is likely that Capt Chia was a SAF scholar. usually in these cases, the real punishment to a regular officer is not ST, but the hanta kaki of his career. I know a few regulars who had recruits or cadets suffer serious injury under their watch and their careers were pretty much stagnant. For Capt Chia to be promoted to Major after only one year from the date of this incident tells me he is a high flier SAF scholar and not a White Horse as some people have speculated. White Horses do not really apply to regulars unless they are related to Familee like Gay Loong and his brother. hence another reason why Chia was not CM. How would it look if they send an SAF scholar to DB. They might have very much wanted to CM the MAt officer, but they can't do it without also doing CM on the Chinese guy. The Mat is hanta kaki for sure now.

7) The whole coroners inquiry should have been attacked at the very beginning by the family's lawyers. The CI is a white wash. many questions were never asked. For example, were other trainees affected by the smoke and received medical treatment too? Why were other trainees not asked to testify as to the severity of the smoke. how many times have these 2 officers thrown 6 grenades instead of 2? Were there other incidents of smoke grenade inhalation injuries in the SAF? (I for one am familiar with a case in Temburong where the OCS cadet suffered a collapsed lung due to inhalation from a smoke grenade). If there are other cases, then it shows a systemic problem in the SAF with regards to this particular training. Why was a boy diagnosed with Asthma even allowed to be PES A in the first place? Why was there not a medic or Dr with an epi pen for his allergy, or the allergy of anyone. People get stung by insects all the time, what if they had an allergic reaction too?

In the final analysis, you can quote all the SAF Regs you want and rant and rave, but this is plain and simple a cover up. And its just the latest one in a long string of other SAF deaths that the PAP has covered up. And in the future for any other deaths down the road, there will be more cover ups too. People vote for the PAP, this is what they will get.
 
Last edited:

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

6) It is likely that Capt Chia was a SAF scholar. usually in these cases, the real punishment to a regular officer is not ST, but the hanta kaki of his career. I know a few regulars who had recruits or cadets suffer serious injury under their watch and their careers were pretty much stagnant. For Capt Chia to be promoted to Major after only one year from the date of this incident tells me he is a high flier SAF scholar and not a White Horse as some people have speculated. White Horses do not really apply to regulars unless they are related to Familee like Gay Loong and his brother. hence another reason why Chia was not CM. How would it look if they send an SAF scholar to DB. They might have very much wanted to CM the MAt officer, but they can't do it without also doing CM on the Chinese guy. The Mat is hanta kaki for sure now.

I agree there is definitely more to this than meets the eye. I have been searching for their names as scholars as well as names of the 3 SIR CO & OC of the soldier during this 2012 incident. It will help connect the dots. Unless there was a change of CO, the CO during this period was LTC Wilson Low, Commanding Officer, 3 SIR.

Under the SAF philosophy of "command responsibility", the OC and CO, especially the OC in his capacity as Officer Commanding and Supervising Officer of this FIBUA exercise, will both share the rap as well. They will very likely be removed from command as the line that is determined to have been crossed in the SAF is always one when a soldier dies under one's command.

These two officers, especially that Chia chap with his rapid promotion even after he was charged, could well have been a protected scholar and/or have benefited from being treated leniently due to the "flow on" effect. If they had been court martialled and sentenced to military detention, it simply means that the "flow on" effect up the hierarchy would be larger and the OC and CO would be implicated and punished as well; not necessarily charged but more than likely, be removed from their command.

If these two officers were very leniently dealt with as they were, than there is very little if not zero "flow on" effect up the command hierarchy. The OC and CO would be spared any punishment. So by choosing not to court martial these two, MINDEF could well be protecting the OC and CO who, in addition to that Chia guy, may well be scholars or white horses. In such a case, these two Captains would be the beneficiaries of such a protection.

That's the reason why Ms Teoh Ai Lin, Director Legal Services or whoever was the Director of Legal Services, MINDEF who was in charge during the period when this decision was taken needs to be investigated to rule out corruption, conflict of interest, political interference or interference of any kind being the reason/s why these two officers were not court martialled or charged under a more "relevant / serious" charge like Section 41 of the SAF Act.
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

This whole case one big wayang! Hiding behind military law, confidentiality,...etc. don't think justice has been done. Do u??

I think it is a small issue. It is normal for soldiers to die. That's what soldiers are for... to kill or be killed.

Sinkies should get used to the idea of dying because it won't be long before real grenades will be doing a lot more damage the throw smoke variety.
 
Top