Top Ten Reasons why Religion Is Bullshit

What anybody thinks of this subject is merely an opinion. Some people's opinion may weigh more than others (eg. word of a cop versus the word of an ordinary man in the street, the cop may be given more credibility because he is an office of the law, and is expected to be more credible than the ordinary bloke). Whether one chooses to believe either of these Georges is up to one, but George Carlin is a comendian by profession, so it is up to you whether you wish to believe a joker. But he's funny.

The story of the frog turning into a prince, I believe that will be categorised under Fairy Tales. It may be fiction, but to the child, the story gives hope. Just like what religion does for many others - hope. What may be called an anomaly today, we will inveestigage and will come up with explanations and more understaning in future - because we keep learning. In the past, storms, hurricanes and other calamities were becase the Gods were angry, and displeased by probably our own immoral behaviour, and for that, God punished us. But today, we have different explanations for them - we call it weather, and its phenomena, like El Nino. God didn't tell us to criminalize ISIS. As far as I know, their God (through some wise Imam) told them to kill infidels! We are just protecting ourselves from their terror!

Cheers!

Frodo said:

So what if George Carlin or even Boy George says religion is bullshit? Does it therefore make it true? Or make it more acceptable and less offensive, because both Georges said it? If I say atheism is bullshit, you would gladly accept it as true? Of course not right? As to life and death, the problem for the atheist is that he cannot even explain why there is life in the first place. The atheist blindly accepts the evolution fairy tale story of a lifeless matter turning into life, and over time, that a frog can turn into a prince. He has to accept this belief even though it goes against all logic and known laws of nature. Because he rejects God, he has no choice but to call it an anomaly of nature, to be discovered by science, even though he knows deep down that this is outside of science. Yes, on earth human make many rules, but he does not make the laws of nature. Only God does. And on making rules against ISIS or other terrorist organisations, why do we make them? Why do we see them as wrong? Isn’t it because what they do is morally wrong? But then again, from where does an atheist get his moral standards from to judge ISIS or anyone as doing wrong?

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Agoraphobic said:

What anybody thinks of this subject is merely an opinion. Some people's opinion may weigh more than others (eg. word of a cop versus the word of an ordinary man in the street, the cop may be given more credibility because he is an office of the law, and is expected to be more credible than the ordinary bloke). Whether one chooses to believe either of these Georges is up to one, but George Carlin is a comendian by profession, so it is up to you whether you wish to believe a joker. But he's funny.

The story of the frog turning into a prince, I believe that will be categorised under Fairy Tales. It may be fiction, but to the child, the story gives hope. Just like what religion does for many others - hope. What may be called an anomaly today, we will inveestigage and will come up with explanations and more understaning in future - because we keep learning. In the past, storms, hurricanes and other calamities were becase the Gods were angry, and displeased by probably our own immoral behaviour, and for that, God punished us. But today, we have different explanations for them - we call it weather, and its phenomena, like El Nino. God didn't tell us to criminalize ISIS. As far as I know, their God (through some wise Imam) told them to kill infidels! We are just protecting ourselves from their terror!

Cheers!

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A cop is a law enforcement officer, he may know nuts about theology or philosophy. It is a fallacious appeal to authority if you believe someone’s claim outside his own expertise. I have heard comedians who have a healthy fear of God, and are believers. Would you believe them? But that’s really besides the point as to what vocation they are in, am I right? No one is an expert on God. One can claim to know heaps ABOUT God but yet does not know God. It’s pointless to brag how much you know about this girl until you know her as your wife and soul mate. That’s experiential knowledge versus mere head knowledge which in some cases can be much more valuable and useful. True, we can study weather and make some good predictions, but that’s again because of fixed laws of nature that God has set in place! Give credit where it is due. Besides, the Bible also tells us that there are SOME weather disasters that take place as a result of God’s punishment. God can use His created order for His purpose. The sea breeze that you enjoy, even the dreaded tsunami, are all part of the workings of the laws of nature God established at creation. I don’t wish to be dragged into a Christian/Muslim debate because that would distract from our conversation here. Suffice it to say that God commanded that we should not murder. ISIS is doing that. We don’t need a government to criminalise ISIS before you and I can recognise evil because of the moral conscience that God has put in us. You can recognise moral evil when you see it, why?

Yes. A cop is only human, s/he may be erred in his/her statement, or even biased, BUT s/he is an officer of the law. And under our social laws (made by us, mortal humans) it stands. People tend to trust a uniformed person more than an ordinay layman, such is society. So God is responsible for the weather? Then why does he sometimes give us good weather and sometimes, terrible storms? Ancients societies attribute the extreme weather as retribution of some sort for our disobedience to the God(s), you accept this? What purpose does his storms and calamities serve to humankind? Why are they included in his (or her's) great scheme of things? If we prayer hard enough, and behave ourselves to his liking, will we be spared these storms? And diseases.

I like your concept of God. If you are right, then school kids should spend more time praying than studying to get better grades. God will help them in their exams! And whole cities should be tucked in churches praying that ISIS stops its terrorist activities. God will take care!

Cheers!

Frodo said:

A cop is a law enforcement officer, he may know nuts about theology or philosophy. It is a fallacious appeal to authority if you believe someone’s claim outside his own expertise. I have heard comedians who have a healthy fear of God, and are believers. Would you believe them? But that’s really besides the point as to what vocation they are in, am I right? No one is an expert on God. One can claim to know heaps ABOUT God but yet does not know God. It’s pointless to brag how much you know about this girl until you know her as your wife and soul mate. That’s experiential knowledge versus mere head knowledge which in some cases can be much more valuable and useful. True, we can study weather and make some good predictions, but that’s again because of fixed laws of nature that God has set in place! Give credit where it is due. Besides, the Bible also tells us that there are SOME weather disasters that take place as a result of God’s punishment. God can use His created order for His purpose. The sea breeze that you enjoy, even the dreaded tsunami, are all part of the workings of the laws of nature God established at creation. I don’t wish to be dragged into a Christian/Muslim debate because that would distract from our conversation here. Suffice it to say that God commanded that we should not murder. ISIS is doing that. We don’t need a government to criminalise ISIS before you and I can recognise evil because of the moral conscience that God has put in us. You can recognise moral evil when you see it, why?

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Agoraphobic said:

Yes. A cop is only human, s/he may be erred in his/her statement, or even biased, BUT s/he is an officer of the law. And under our social laws (made by us, mortal humans) it stands. People tend to trust a uniformed person more than an ordinay layman, such is society. So God is responsible for the weather? Then why does he sometimes give us good weather and sometimes, terrible storms? Ancients societies attribute the extreme weather as retribution of some sort for our disobedience to the God(s), you accept this? What purpose does his storms and calamities serve to humankind? Why are they included in his (or her's) great scheme of things? If we prayer hard enough, and behave ourselves to his liking, will we be spared these storms? And diseases.

I like your concept of God. If you are right, then school kids should spend more time praying than studying to get better grades. God will help them in their exams! And whole cities should be tucked in churches praying that ISIS stops its terrorist activities. God will take care!

Cheers!

Click to expand...

An officer of the law is just that, he enforces the law. It does not make him an authority on finance, economics, politics etc. If you believe someone just because he wears a uniform, then that is a very shallow way of thinking. That’s how people get conned too! Yes, God sets the laws of nature whereby we get the weather. The interaction of natural forces will give you the nice evening breeze or the dreaded hurricane. Please read carefully what I wrote earlier, I said the Bible teaches that some disasters are brought by God as a punishment for sin. So I have no problem accepting that certain disasters can be divine retribution, but I won’t say that every disaster is because of that. Since the Bible teaches this, it becomes part of my answer too. You liked a caricature of my God, not the God I really believe in. The Bible says that he who does not work should not eat. Even Adam had to tend and cultivate the Garden God placed him in. Children should study hard, play hard, and also pray hard.

To me, a cop is just a working man, whose duty is to uphold and enforce the law. However, society generally do place them higher up the ladder in morality, worthiness, honesty and all that good stuff. IN reality, s/he is an ordinary working class bloke, much like the rest of people in that society he works. Because of the nature of his work, s/he is trained in handling firearms, and is expected to be more knowledgeable about the law than his fellow laypeople. He is not special, or gifted in any area. There are policemen who succumb to temptation and break the law as well. They are as human as anyone else.

Do not bother to tell me stories in the Bible. I may watch them as entertainment, but you know I do not believe they happened as described in your Holy Book. Adam had to work and slog, after he was barred from Eden, before that, I think he was blissfull, happy-go-lucky in the garden which you guys call Eden. I wonder if leeches and mostquitoes there sucked human blood, or they were gracious and human-loving as well!

Cheers!

Frodo said:

An officer of the law is just that, he enforces the law. It does not make him an authority on finance, economics, politics etc. If you believe someone just because he wears a uniform, then that is a very shallow way of thinking. That’s how people get conned too! Yes, God sets the laws of nature whereby we get the weather. The interaction of natural forces will give you the nice evening breeze or the dreaded hurricane. Please read carefully what I wrote earlier, I said the Bible teaches that some disasters are brought by God as a punishment for sin. So I have no problem accepting that certain disasters can be divine retribution, but I won’t say that every disaster is because of that. Since the Bible teaches this, it becomes part of my answer too. You liked a caricature of my God, not the God I really believe in. The Bible says that he who does not work should not eat. Even Adam had to tend and cultivate the Garden God placed him in. Children should study hard, play hard, and also pray hard.

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Agoraphobic said:

To me, a cop is just a working man, whose duty is to uphold and enforce the law. However, society generally do place them higher up the ladder in morality, worthiness, honesty and all that good stuff. IN reality, s/he is an ordinary working class bloke, much like the rest of people in that society he works. Because of the nature of his work, s/he is trained in handling firearms, and is expected to be more knowledgeable about the law than his fellow laypeople. He is not special, or gifted in any area. There are policemen who succumb to temptation and break the law as well. They are as human as anyone else.

Do not bother to tell me stories in the Bible. I may watch them as entertainment, but you know I do not believe they happened as described in your Holy Book. Adam had to work and slog, after he was barred from Eden, before that, I think he was blissfull, happy-go-lucky in the garden which you guys call Eden. I wonder if leeches and mostquitoes there sucked human blood, or they were gracious and human-loving as well!

Cheers!

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Exactly, a cop is just that, a person with a job. Don’t make him into an authority or expert on a subject that bears no connection to his job.

You tell me not to bother to tell you stories in the Bible because you don’t believe they happen. Well, I do. But if you intend to continue a discussion with a Christian about religious matters, you should accept the fact that mentioning the Bible is going to be a part of the package. What else do you expect, that I tell you stories from Karma Sutra? You wish! LOL! The point is this, if you want to dialogue with a Christian you have to accept the fact the Bible would be mentioned, otherwise you should not even start or continue. How do you propose the conversation is going to progress at all if you ask me a question about my faith but yet tell me to keep the Bible out of it? You are just being difficult, isn’t it? You don’t go into a fight zone and tell your opponent not to use his martial arts skills in which he was trained up in, just because you are not impressed with it or look down on it or don’t believe it is that good. Heck, if he can beat you with it, that will leave more than an impression on you! LOL!

But let me add why I think atheists generally like to tell Christians to keep the Bible out of it. They know that the Bible answers their questions well, it is consistent and coherent. The Bible can supply the answers to their questions and they don't like it. And of course not to mention that most atheists know next to nothing about the Bible, so when faced with a good answer from the Bible the they can only resort to saying “I don’t believe a thing in the Biible…lalalalalala” which in my view is really a very lame face-saving response.

To me, the Bible is just a collection of Christian folklore. It is not a book of fact(s). Others have their opinion (or right) to believe in whatever is written in it. I will not contest that - it will never end. It is just somewhat disturbing that some human beings (a supposed rational and intelligent being) so readily gobbles up every word of it as things that happened in the past. There is word for such people - gullible. The bible stories are handed down from civilisations that predate the peoples in the bible itself, and the organizations sprouted from it, have evolved with the changes in society that has moulded Christianity into the modern form it is that gels very well with current social trends and is accepted by most modern communities. The fact that modern society sees religious freedom as a basic human right - indicates that there are other religions whose beliefs exist in current times and are also accepted. So, which religion is the "correct" religion? To put it in other words, which God is the correct God? In this humanity is unwilling to answer. Because, either choice, may still be wrong, as nobody will know the answer(s) in our lifespan.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

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You tell me not to bother to tell you stories in the Bible because you don’t believe they happen. Well, I do. But if you intend to continue a discussion with a Christian about religious matters, you should accept the fact that mentioning the Bible is going to be a part of the package. What else do you expect, that I tell you stories from Karma Sutra? You wish! LOL! The point is this, if you want to dialogue with a Christian you have to accept the fact the Bible would be mentioned, otherwise you should not even start or continue. How do you propose the conversation is going to progress at all if you ask me a question about my faith but yet tell me to keep the Bible out of it? You are just being difficult, isn’t it? You don’t go into a fight zone and tell your opponent not to use his martial arts skills in which he was trained up in, just because you are not impressed with it or look down on it or don’t believe it is that good. Heck, if he can beat you with it, that will leave more than an impression on you! LOL!

But let me add why I think atheists generally like to tell Christians to keep the Bible out of it. They know that the Bible answers their questions well, it is consistent and coherent. The Bible can supply the answers to their questions and they don't like it. And of course not to mention that most atheists know next to nothing about the Bible, so when faced with a good answer from the Bible the they can only resort to saying “I don’t believe a thing in the Biible…lalalalalala” which in my view is really a very lame face-saving response.

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Agoraphobic said:

To me, the Bible is just a collection of Christian folklore. It is not a book of fact(s). Others have their opinion (or right) to believe in whatever is written in it. I will not contest that - it will never end. It is just somewhat disturbing that some human beings (a supposed rational and intelligent being) so readily gobbles up every word of it as things that happened in the past. There is word for such people - gullible. The bible stories are handed down from civilisations that predate the peoples in the bible itself, and the organizations sprouted from it, have evolved with the changes in society that has moulded Christianity into the modern form it is that gels very well with current social trends and is accepted by most modern communities. The fact that modern society sees religious freedom as a basic human right - indicates that there are other religions whose beliefs exist in current times and are also accepted. So, which religion is the "correct" religion? To put it in other words, which God is the correct God? In this humanity is unwilling to answer. Because, either choice, may still be wrong, as nobody will know the answer(s) in our lifespan.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

I don’t really buy into the absurd postmodernistic thinking that you espoused here, the kind that says “to me, it means this..it means that” to the utter disregard as to what the truth of the matter is. Either the Bible is true, or it is not. This is the truth at one level. How you or I FEEL about the matter is quite a different matter from what the truth of the matter is! Again, if it makes you feel superior to call me gullible for believing the whole Bible as true, so be it. I make no apology for it. Rather, you should examine whether what you believe in is rational or credible, even using your own standards of enquiry. The transmission of the Bible is one big topic. You think it is largely hand me downs that no longer contains the truth. Well, can you back this claim? Not unless you have access to the true version! The fact of the matter is that man is simply a religious being. You asked, which God is the correct God? Doesn’t this imply the answer that there is a correct God to know? But as soon as you say “nobody knows” you shoot yourself in the foot, because how do you know nobody knows unless you know all there is to know to conclude that nobody knows? Are you all-knowing? I don’t think so!

To put it simply, I ask, does one believe in miracles? To me, it is NO. If you (or anyone else says yes - it is their choice). I can't argue with that. But as far as I know, virgin births, and returning from the dead are impossible. So for those who choose to believe (it is the essence of Christianity. This thought did not originate from me. I saw it on The Simpsons. Homer was asked why he didn't attend church. He displayed some guilt for not fulfilling his "Christian" obligation (of attending mass on Sundays) but instead questioned whether he'd be worshipping the right god or not? Just quoting him - a family man from working class suburban America, who thinks! (I think).

Cheers!

Frodo said:

I don’t really buy into the absurd postmodernistic thinking that you espoused here, the kind that says “to me, it means this..it means that” to the utter disregard as to what the truth of the matter is. Either the Bible is true, or it is not. This is the truth at one level. How you or I FEEL about the matter is quite a different matter from what the truth of the matter is! Again, if it makes you feel superior to call me gullible for believing the whole Bible as true, so be it. I make no apology for it. Rather, you should examine whether what you believe in is rational or credible, even using your own standards of enquiry. The transmission of the Bible is one big topic. You think it is largely hand me downs that no longer contains the truth. Well, can you back this claim? Not unless you have access to the true version! The fact of the matter is that man is simply a religious being. You asked, which God is the correct God? Doesn’t this imply the answer that there is a correct God to know? But as soon as you say “nobody knows” you shoot yourself in the foot, because how do you know nobody knows unless you know all there is to know to conclude that nobody knows? Are you all-knowing? I don’t think so!

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Agoraphobic said:

To put it simply, I ask, does one believe in miracles? To me, it is NO. If you (or anyone else says yes - it is their choice). I can't argue with that. But as far as I know, virgin births, and returning from the dead are impossible. So for those who choose to believe (it is the essence of Christianity. This thought did not originate from me. I saw it on The Simpsons. Homer was asked why he didn't attend church. He displayed some guilt for not fulfilling his "Christian" obligation (of attending mass on Sundays) but instead questioned whether he'd be worshipping the right god or not? Just quoting him - a family man from working class suburban America, who thinks! (I think).

Cheers!

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You should ask yourself another question, why do you not believe in miracles? Isn’t it because you have adopted naturalism/atheism as your worldview? So long as atheism is your worldview, miracles by definition are impossible. Even if a virgin birth was reported you would straightaway dismiss it and insist that there is a naturalistic answer, simply because right from the start your worldview does not cater for it. Your choice of the Simpsons as your mouthpiece is hardly commendable, but up to you lah. Anyway, as an atheist are you really concerned about worshipping the right God? I don’t think so. So your (or Simpson’s) question comes across as just mere patronising.

Mircales are not possible - because they are illogical. Virgin births are not possible, because the female egg (or ovary) needs to be fertilized by a male sperm. It is still possible without sexual intercourse (eg. artificial insemination). But that did not take place in the biblical story - Mary was pregnated by the Holy Spirit - considered a miracle. Jesus resurrected on the third day (that's Easter Sunday in our calendar), again by our logic, this is not possible - again a miracle. I have nothing against one who wants to believe these happened, but I cannot accept these as truths. In this, I agreed with the Threadstarter's title - Religion is Bullshit. And when I saw that episode of the Simpson's, I can agree with that beer guzzling slob Homer, he has a point. Or rather the producers of the series, since Homer Simpson does not really exist. But that thought came from someone.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

You should ask yourself another question, why do you not believe in miracles? Isn’t it because you have adopted naturalism/atheism as your worldview? So long as atheism is your worldview, miracles by definition are impossible. Even if a virgin birth was reported you would straightaway dismiss it and insist that there is a naturalistic answer, simply because right from the start your worldview does not cater for it. Your choice of the Simpsons as your mouthpiece is hardly commendable, but up to you lah. Anyway, as an atheist are you really concerned about worshipping the right God? I don’t think so. So your (or Simpson’s) question comes across as just mere patronising.

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Agoraphobic said:

Mircales are not possible - because they are illogical. Virgin births are not possible, because the female egg (or ovary) needs to be fertilized by a male sperm. It is still possible without sexual intercourse (eg. artificial insemination). But that did not take place in the biblical story - Mary was pregnated by the Holy Spirit - considered a miracle. Jesus resurrected on the third day (that's Easter Sunday in our calendar), again by our logic, this is not possible - again a miracle. I have nothing against one who wants to believe these happened, but I cannot accept these as truths. In this, I agreed with the Threadstarter's title - Religion is Bullshit. And when I saw that episode of the Simpson's, I can agree with that beer guzzling slob Homer, he has a point. Or rather the producers of the series, since Homer Simpson does not really exist. But that thought came from someone.

Cheers!

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It seems you are confused between what is a matter of logic and what is a matter of possibility. The question “Are miracles logical?” is itself irrational. This is not a matter of logic, but a matter of possibility. Why do I say so? Because if God exists, then miracles are certainly possible. We say something is illogical if it fails the test of logic, where your conclusion does not properly flow from your premises. So it is wrong for you to take the events of the Bible and try to fit it within your atheistic/naturalistic worldview. You will end up rejecting everything in there since the worldview of the Bible is theistic. If you wear bullshit glasses then all you see is bullshit. You need to wear the correct glasses to see the world correctly.

And what are the "correct" glasses to see through? Apparently you have chosen a very narrow view. Look around, the world is composed of different peoples, with different upbringing, and outlooks. It is better to take a broader view of things. Up till now, all I can say is that diversity is what is prevalent in this world we exist, And there are an infinite number of views that can by "dreamt" up, And this happens to be the case. Some are more logical than others. The biblical ones are among the most idiotic.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

It seems you are confused between what is a matter of logic and what is a matter of possibility. The question “Are miracles logical?” is itself irrational. This is not a matter of logic, but a matter of possibility. Why do I say so? Because if God exists, then miracles are certainly possible. We say something is illogical if it fails the test of logic, where your conclusion does not properly flow from your premises. So it is wrong for you to take the events of the Bible and try to fit it within your atheistic/naturalistic worldview. You will end up rejecting everything in there since the worldview of the Bible is theistic. If you wear bullshit glasses then all you see is bullshit. You need to wear the correct glasses to see the world correctly.

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Agoraphobic said:

And what are the "correct" glasses to see through? Apparently you have chosen a very narrow view. Look around, the world is composed of different peoples, with different upbringing, and outlooks. It is better to take a broader view of things. Up till now, all I can say is that diversity is what is prevalent in this world we exist, And there are an infinite number of views that can by "dreamt" up, And this happens to be the case. Some are more logical than others. The biblical ones are among the most idiotic.

Cheers!

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Do you believe there is a right and wrong way to view the world? The fact that there are diverse ways to look at things is not proof that there is no right or correct way to look at the world. Diversity simply means diversity. If you pride yourself as being logical, it cannot be that atheism and theism (two extreme diverse views) are true at the same time in the same sense. The same goes for the other views as well. I will again overlook your attempt at maximising offensiveness by your use of term “idiotic” in reference to my beliefs.

You are a believer (in the Christian God), while I am not. I will not debate any longer on this as to who is right. It will never end. Let's just say that I am unconvinced by the bible as the way of things. And that our lives are to be given to this God (as in whoever believes, shall have everlasting life). I am able to accept that many things will remain unknown to me in my life. I do not have to find out everything. And that to me means that even if one accepts this God, one will not know everything.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

Do you believe there is a right and wrong way to view the world? The fact that there are diverse ways to look at things is not proof that there is no right or correct way to look at the world. Diversity simply means diversity. If you pride yourself as being logical, it cannot be that atheism and theism (two extreme diverse views) are true at the same time in the same sense. The same goes for the other views as well. I will again overlook your attempt at maximising offensiveness by your use of term “idiotic” in reference to my beliefs.

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Agoraphobic said:

You are a believer (in the Christian God), while I am not. I will not debate any longer on this as to who is right. It will never end. Let's just say that I am unconvinced by the bible as the way of things. And that our lives are to be given to this God (as in whoever believes, shall have everlasting life). I am able to accept that many things will remain unknown to me in my life. I do not have to find out everything. And that to me means that even if one accepts this God, one will not know everything.

Cheers!

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Your pessimism is certainty unfounded, unless you have certain reasons why you would rather remain as you are and not be committed to further investigation. Many have embarked on the discovery and have found God. I don’t see why that would be elusive to you, unless you choose to hold back. If so, it is not a problem with the issue or subject matter, but a personal problem! Anyway, being a Christian does not mean having to know everything. You know well the cliché that God works in mysterious ways, and that His ways are higher than our ways, that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. As a Christian I am happy to live with unknowns. I don’t have to know everything. But I do know the One who does! There are many things in life to which the answers would probably elude us, but then again the Christian position is that God has already revealed to us sufficient answers to the most important questions in life. What God has chosen to tell us is for us to know, the rest we simply trust God that perhaps in the life to come, we will know things perfectly. So there’s no need for you to fret and throw up your hands in surrender. Since you already acknowledge that you do not have to find out everything, that is a good starting point, why not let the Bible speak and tell you of things you don’t know? Question is, are you refusing to know?

Very simple - how is one to believe stories from your Great Book? - The Creation Story (in seven days!), The story of Noah's Ark! Moses and his journey leading the Jews out of Egypt, the story of your Messiah, and others like Jonah (and the huge fish), Now these may have been made up to sum up feelings of heroism, good versus bad and triumphing over evil and such things, but it is not possible for them to have happened the way it was described. That's why I use the word folklore to describe these events (or stories). The intention of the story is for the good of the society who is told. But to me, that's where it should end - they are stories, that's all. I repeat, I am not finding fault with those who believe, but I am not going to just believe and follow this path.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

Your pessimism is certainty unfounded, unless you have certain reasons why you would rather remain as you are and not be committed to further investigation. Many have embarked on the discovery and have found God. I don’t see why that would be elusive to you, unless you choose to hold back. If so, it is not a problem with the issue or subject matter, but a personal problem! Anyway, being a Christian does not mean having to know everything. You know well the cliché that God works in mysterious ways, and that His ways are higher than our ways, that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. As a Christian I am happy to live with unknowns. I don’t have to know everything. But I do know the One who does! There are many things in life to which the answers would probably elude us, but then again the Christian position is that God has already revealed to us sufficient answers to the most important questions in life. What God has chosen to tell us is for us to know, the rest we simply trust God that perhaps in the life to come, we will know things perfectly. So there’s no need for you to fret and throw up your hands in surrender. Since you already acknowledge that you do not have to find out everything, that is a good starting point, why not let the Bible speak and tell you of things you don’t know? Question is, are you refusing to know?

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Agoraphobic said:

Very simple - how is one to believe stories from your Great Book? - The Creation Story (in seven days!), The story of Noah's Ark! Moses and his journey leading the Jews out of Egypt, the story of your Messiah, and others like Jonah (and the huge fish), Now these may have been made up to sum up feelings of heroism, good versus bad and triumphing over evil and such things, but it is not possible for them to have happened the way it was described. That's why I use the word folklore to describe these events (or stories). The intention of the story is for the good of the society who is told. But to me, that's where it should end - they are stories, that's all. I repeat, I am not finding fault with those who believe, but I am not going to just believe and follow this path.

Cheers!

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Looks like you already write off the Bible before you even give the Good Book a good look. Perhaps you already hold certain bias and prejudice because of the hearsays. I have conversed with many nonbelievers in my many years as a Christian and one thing comes up over and over again, they are simply misinformed and have many wrong ideas about the Bible. For one, you have to disabuse yourself of the caricature that believers are idiots or fools to “just believe” the Bible. There are many who come to faith after decades of being atheists and skeptics. Surely you don’t think they suddenly become idiots and fools just prior to conversion? No, they are more honourable and noble than you think! To begin, you need to set aside (not asking you to convert lah!) your prejudice and try to approach the Bible on its own terms. In other words, at the very basic you have to assume a theistic worldview in order to better understand the Bible. It’s called stepping into the other person’s shoes. But if you refuse to do that you would just be persisting in your erroneous views of the Bible, refusing to be corrected, or worst, afraid to be corrected. Question is, are you ready to have your own cherished beliefs rocked and shaken?

I have already said that I see the Bible as partly Jewisn folklore. Now you are telling me to believe the stories as events that happened!?! For a start, I will have a hard time believing that it took seven days to create the Earth, and everything in it from nada. I can accept that seven days may be said to be seven stages over millions or billions of years, a long time. But to actually take seven days as seven 24 hour periods is nonsense!!! Same thing with other following stories. David versus Goliath, here Goliath may be seen as a large army, not a single towering person, and the slingshot that dropped him is some advance technology/material which David's side had acquired or developed prior to that engagement. A small advanced army defeating a colossal one, not a small midget fighting a hulk! That';s how I read the stories when I come across them. Mostly, I watch movies and TV programs on biblical stories. There are people on both sides of the interpretation, one seen as historical fact, the other as a parable. I try to be as open as possible when I watch programs on Bible and/or other religious backgrounds.

Cheers!

Frodo said:

Looks like you already write off the Bible before you even give the Good Book a good look. Perhaps you already hold certain bias and prejudice because of the hearsays. I have conversed with many nonbelievers in my many years as a Christian and one thing comes up over and over again, they are simply misinformed and have many wrong ideas about the Bible. For one, you have to disabuse yourself of the caricature that believers are idiots or fools to “just believe” the Bible. There are many who come to faith after decades of being atheists and skeptics. Surely you don’t think they suddenly become idiots and fools just prior to conversion? No, they are more honourable and noble than you think! To begin, you need to set aside (not asking you to convert lah!) your prejudice and try to approach the Bible on its own terms. In other words, at the very basic you have to assume a theistic worldview in order to better understand the Bible. It’s called stepping into the other person’s shoes. But if you refuse to do that you would just be persisting in your erroneous views of the Bible, refusing to be corrected, or worst, afraid to be corrected. Question is, are you ready to have your own cherished beliefs rocked and shaken?

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Agoraphobic said:

I have already said that I see the Bible as partly Jewisn folklore. Now you are telling me to believe the stories as events that happened!?! For a start, I will have a hard time believing that it took seven days to create the Earth, and everything in it from nada. I can accept that seven days may be said to be seven stages over millions or billions of years, a long time. But to actually take seven days as seven 24 hour periods is nonsense!!! Same thing with other following stories. David versus Goliath, here Goliath may be seen as a large army, not a single towering person, and the slingshot that dropped him is some advance technology/material which David's side had acquired or developed prior to that engagement. A small advanced army defeating a colossal one, not a small midget fighting a hulk! That';s how I read the stories when I come across them. Mostly, I watch movies and TV programs on biblical stories. There are people on both sides of the interpretation, one seen as historical fact, the other as a parable. I try to be as open as possible when I watch programs on Bible and/or other religious backgrounds.

Cheers!

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You are not reading me correctly at all. I said you need to ASSUME the worldview of the Bible when you evaluate the Bible, this is required in order to be fair to it. Asking you to put yourself in the other person’s shoes is not to ask you to convert, but to ask you to see things from the other side. Take for example your issue with a seven day period to create the earth. It’s already wrong to begin with! God did not take seven days to create the earth, He took only SIX days! And to be even more precise God took six ordinary days to create the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. The seventh day was a rest day, not because God was tired, but because He completed all He want to create and ceased the work of creation on the sixth day. Besides, since God is all powerful, He did not even need six days, He could have done it an instant, wouldn’t you agree? Or since God is not bound by time, and in no hurry, He could just as well take 15 billion years! So the issue is not over what God could have done, but what He actually DID and how long He actually took. One thing you need to learn, is to interpret the Bible according to the genre in which it was written. You do not allegorise what is literal or literalise what is allegorical or figurative. If you think a reading or interpretation does not make sense, ask yourself, in what sense does it not make sense? For example, you said Goliath may been seen as a large army. Well then, examine your own premise here, are you telling me that one shepherd boy David with one fling of a stone can kill an entire army of Philistines? A large towering Goliath makes better sense and is more coherent than your idea of a large army, don’t you agree?