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My views on Iskandar. Please share yours.

xebay11

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copied and pasted from Reds , which u agreed is good analysis :wink:

2) SG property agents who think Iskandar is taking away their business

3) Singaporeans, PRs and Malaysians hoping to buy Iskandar properties on the cheap

4) Singaporeans/PR/Malaysians who have no intention to buy Iskandar properties, yet hope that MY properties will crash and buyers will suffer.

Your point being?
 

Manhattan

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Enough has been said. Let's mark this day 14 oct 2015. Let's revisit this tread on 14 oct 2020 to see who is the real clairvoyant. :biggrin:
 

mpan12

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A very excellent article.. Thanks for the effort.
Property buying is a very emotive thing. Not many people are able to apply hard headed analytical decisions when deciding. But since it's bought, I would say that just ride with it.
Who knows what's going to happen.
Singapore during the down turn also no one dare to buy.. After that everyone rush in. Now there is likely to be some problem with over supply in Singapore too..
And the amount of commitment is probably a few times higher then Johor. How come no one says that it's a bad investment.. Many people buy second home in Singapore too, it's just that the US free printing of money is driving many people to place money in assets rather then paper money.

And it's a natural response to the economic conditions at that time.. Whether it will work out or not no one really knows. It's just that once you start to dabble in property you better have holding power..

But truth be told, it's probably better to avoid condos in Iskandar. Landed property is probably a better way forward as an investment vehicle

You're welcome! Thanks for your appreciation. :smile:

Property is a big ticket item. Unless the buyer is really rich, where buying a S$400k house/condo is like the commoner buying a mobile phone, then I'd say OK! Point taken. You can choose wherever you want to put your money in. Otherwise, just getting all hyped up by the mass media, property agents, peer pressure, Malaysian officials and not giving the investment due thought is dangerous.

I did mention b4, we can't compare Singapore with Iskandar. I do hear this very often. That's the number 1 mistake. For eg, some people argue: You're scared you get robbed in JB? Didn't I hear in Singapore, there were also murder cases? Rapes? Obviously, this a lame response. Of course crime happens everywhere in the world. But which country is it more likely to happen in?

Singapore is 1st world, vibrant, economically strong, very attractive to foreigners and locals, properly ruled, business-friendly and and safe. Johor is nowhere near in comparison. Yes, there are some who dare not or don't have the ability to buy properties in a downturn. But if given a choice, it's very clear a smart investor rather buy an expensive HDB flat than a much cheaper Iskandar condo. 10 years down the road, which one has a higher likelihood to appreciate in value? This is where it's logical to talk about "holding power". It makes sense to hold a property of value if you have the ability.

As for condo vs house, yes condos are to be avoided. But I think many Singaporeans have bought condos than houses in Iskandar!
 

Manhattan

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Some closing remarks. My plan is to semi retire in 8 to 10 yrs time with a fully paid hdb and a condo in nusajaya. Rent out the miserable hdb for rm8000 per month to live a reasonbably luxury life in a 30th floor sea view new condo, purpectually sustainable without using a single cent of my savings. Just in case i live till 100. I dont really care if the nusajaya condo price will go up as i must like it for own stay. What i care is sg economy must keep going to have people rent my hdb. And the 2 properties will be inflation proof. I.e. rent go up when inflation go up. Whatever additional cash and cpf payout will be just bonus for more travel. one important factor to choose nusajaya is i can come back to my beloved sg in 30mins if i need to, like visiting old parents or ng teng fong. Sounds too good to be true I sometimes doubt myself.
I don't focus on the current problems in Johor, I focus on the possibilities, which are cautiously optimistic for 5 to 10 yrs.
Actually I don't want to share my plan, worry that too many people will follow likewise...haha..
 

mpan12

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Actually TDSR is based on what is officially declared income, many, many people under declare their "other sources" of income so they have spare cash to invest. But I totally agree with you on the bad news for those who came in after 2012, those who invested in 2007 to 2008 have made some money, or bought dirt cheap for own stay and sadly many blindly went in thinking that this result can be replicated.

If they did under-declare their TDSR, then shouldn't they have more cash in hand and can invest more in local properties? It's a worse case scenario. If under-declare, TDSR maxed out, and yet want to borrow some more money to invest and hence go to Iskandar, that could be an over-commitment financially.

Is it just me or do you feel there is a lot of resistance? Actually, I'm puzzled why some say the anti-Iskandar people have so much time and why they are so friendly. I don't think "anti-" is an accurate term to describe. I love writing, learning and sharing views as far as property and investing are concerned. I particularly like an academic sort of discussion that makes sense. I'm not anti-Iskandar. But I view it as it is. A spade has to be called a spade. I definitely accept different opinions, such as I totally accept why some rich people prefer to live in HDB flats, whereas the less rich ones try hard to buy a condo. There's nothing wrong. But if you have bought into Iskandar, surely you have specific reasons?

Don't we gain more when we share knowledge and experience? And I thought most will ask all the important questions and take some time to do homework rather than dump their precious money on a property in Iskandar because they "feel like it". Or are we dealing with a larger group of semi- and already retired high net worth uncles who have more than S$10 million cash minus properties? Sorry if you are in this category and find this discussion naggy! :P

All I wanted to know is the other points of view on Iskandar, like what makes it so attractive to buy properties there. Unfortunately, I can't say I have found the answer. The question is really quite straightforward: What is it in Iskandar that you think will make your property be valuable, amidst all the (negative) facts and reports that point to all the problems? I think there are many condo projects that will be completed in the next 2 years or so. So let's say it's completed. How are you ensuring your properties will be sustainable? Perhaps you could tell me, there are large factories, MNCs, SMEs that will be there. They will employ tens of thousands of workers. These people need accommodation.

If that's the case, I will say point taken! But all I'm hearing is, "You must have holding power". I really hope no one bought their Iskandar condo because an agent told them: "You must buy Iskandar property! Just have holding power!" From my walk around, and drive around with my colleague, and using the reports as a guide, I am not seeing that potential happening. So is there something that is not being reported? All I know is, there will be tens of thousands of new condos coming up. I can't see who these units will be occupied by. Altogether, there are literally hundreds of thousands of such units! That's the "mystery" I wish to figure out!

I can't conclude much but if I should, I feel there are the 4 category of Iskandar buyers, post 2012:

1. The gullible ones who get swept off their feet by large China developer commercials. They believed easily whatever lies the agents tell them about Iskandar. This group of people also tend to find it hard to do their own proper homework. They are easily pleased. Have spare cash, plunge into Iskandar! They wish they didn't invest but it's too late. So only way is to hang on and just wait.

2. The second group is maybe less gullible but was taken in by all the buying rush back in 2013/14. They were misinformed. They didn't ask important questions. Just believed Iskandar will work because everything seems to be in place: HSR, government buildings, shopping centres, etc. But they forgot they are dealing with Malaysia here. They also forgot to perhaps check the supply and demand. This group also will try to tell themselves just wait. Think positively. But if can get out with some loss now, then get out!

3. This group is rich. Damn rich. They are perhaps semi-retired or retired. Lots of cash. So ok, maybe putting down some cash into Iskandar. Whether it fails or not, it doesn't bother them. It's only a small part of their net worth. Yes, must have holding power!

4. The last group are people whose work allows them some flexibility to live in Iskandar and work in Singapore. I don't think many fall into this category. To them, living in a much bigger home takes a much higher priority over everything else. So they are willing to change their habits and lifestyles to suit the new living.
 

dumb1

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How big is Iskandar? What is the population of Iskandar? Which part of Iskandar is like our Orchard Road or Bukit Timah?
 

freekazoid

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It's rather long. Please see my writing here:

http://txt.do/ayxta

Which decent maintained property in the decent neighborhood over the long terms say 10-15 years has become detrimental to owner? Sure there maybe better investment elsewhere and other type of investments...there always another greater faster investment.

The apparent fact that your friend has committed the purchase...the 14 myth points advice of negative mind of yours is more self serving than offer any guidance.....which made it sounds like you accomplished a great deal...What good did you offer with that advice?

Again what decent property has let people down in the long term that marked end of 300k-500k commitment?
 
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Frodo

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If they did under-declare their TDSR, then shouldn't they have more cash in hand and can invest more in local properties? It's a worse case scenario. If under-declare, TDSR maxed out, and yet want to borrow some more money to invest and hence go to Iskandar, that could be an over-commitment financially.

Is it just me or do you feel there is a lot of resistance? Actually, I'm puzzled why some say the anti-Iskandar people have so much time and why they are so friendly. I don't think "anti-" is an accurate term to describe. I love writing, learning and sharing views as far as property and investing are concerned. I particularly like an academic sort of discussion that makes sense. I'm not anti-Iskandar. But I view it as it is. A spade has to be called a spade. I definitely accept different opinions, such as I totally accept why some rich people prefer to live in HDB flats, whereas the less rich ones try hard to buy a condo. There's nothing wrong. But if you have bought into Iskandar, surely you have specific reasons?

Don't we gain more when we share knowledge and experience? And I thought most will ask all the important questions and take some time to do homework rather than dump their precious money on a property in Iskandar because they "feel like it". Or are we dealing with a larger group of semi- and already retired high net worth uncles who have more than S$10 million cash minus properties? Sorry if you are in this category and find this discussion naggy! :P

All I wanted to know is the other points of view on Iskandar, like what makes it so attractive to buy properties there. Unfortunately, I can't say I have found the answer. The question is really quite straightforward: What is it in Iskandar that you think will make your property be valuable, amidst all the (negative) facts and reports that point to all the problems? I think there are many condo projects that will be completed in the next 2 years or so. So let's say it's completed. How are you ensuring your properties will be sustainable? Perhaps you could tell me, there are large factories, MNCs, SMEs that will be there. They will employ tens of thousands of workers. These people need accommodation.

If that's the case, I will say point taken! But all I'm hearing is, "You must have holding power". I really hope no one bought their Iskandar condo because an agent told them: "You must buy Iskandar property! Just have holding power!" From my walk around, and drive around with my colleague, and using the reports as a guide, I am not seeing that potential happening. So is there something that is not being reported? All I know is, there will be tens of thousands of new condos coming up. I can't see who these units will be occupied by. Altogether, there are literally hundreds of thousands of such units! That's the "mystery" I wish to figure out!

I can't conclude much but if I should, I feel there are the 4 category of Iskandar buyers, post 2012:

1. The gullible ones who get swept off their feet by large China developer commercials. They believed easily whatever lies the agents tell them about Iskandar. This group of people also tend to find it hard to do their own proper homework. They are easily pleased. Have spare cash, plunge into Iskandar! They wish they didn't invest but it's too late. So only way is to hang on and just wait.

2. The second group is maybe less gullible but was taken in by all the buying rush back in 2013/14. They were misinformed. They didn't ask important questions. Just believed Iskandar will work because everything seems to be in place: HSR, government buildings, shopping centres, etc. But they forgot they are dealing with Malaysia here. They also forgot to perhaps check the supply and demand. This group also will try to tell themselves just wait. Think positively. But if can get out with some loss now, then get out!

3. This group is rich. Damn rich. They are perhaps semi-retired or retired. Lots of cash. So ok, maybe putting down some cash into Iskandar. Whether it fails or not, it doesn't bother them. It's only a small part of their net worth. Yes, must have holding power!

4. The last group are people whose work allows them some flexibility to live in Iskandar and work in Singapore. I don't think many fall into this category. To them, living in a much bigger home takes a much higher priority over everything else. So they are willing to change their habits and lifestyles to suit the new living.

My situation is more 5% group 2 and 95% group 4.:biggrin:

We rushed in to buy in 2013 for fear that if the minimum property price was raised it would mean the door would be closed for us to buy and live in our own landed property that is 3 times as big as our 4 room HDB pigeon hole flat at 1/3 of the price of a jumbo - sized HDB. To us, moving over the causeway was the best option, economically speaking. Sure, the daily commute to work is not fun but overall things are better, in the longer term. We get to rent out our HDB to finance the JB house. And who knows maybe 10 years later should we move back to Singapore our JB house value would have appreciated much more. Between 2013 and now the bank valuation has gone up by at least RM50K...maybe not much but still something lah.:o
 
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Frodo

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There is also another group. People who can afford to buy a retirement home in JB now while working in SG.
This group usually have a medium to long term say 10-20years time line. Whereby when they retire,
Both or whatever properties they have in either countries are fully paid.

They want to buy now in JB while still relatively affordable & they are able to service it from their Job in SG.
They will be looking to leverage from passive income from their Sg property to use for their retirement in JB.
It's a certainty that as Spore march towards 7m in 2030, more & more middle to lower income group will be squeezed out.
Looking North is only a logical move. The smart ones plan for that in ADV as some form of insurance.

In my case the move to JB was never part of any plan. It was a decision made in haste once we realised that HDB prices were, and still are, way too high for us to "upsize" to a bigger HDB unit, coupled with fear of minimum property price being raised. And while I would like to say that both Singapore and JB properties have been fully paid for, that is not the case in reality. But I am working towards paying off the HDB flat via partial capital payments where possible.
 
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wolverine23

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On one hand you wrote that "must have holding power", on the other you wrote the below about "money draining out". It seems contradicting.

Anyway, which is more draining. Buying a $500k Porsche or real estate in Johor?

Holding power also does not mean you can afford to pay for the mortgage every month at a loss (because of no tenant) and just hang in there for years and years. You are actually draining your money away. The capital appreciation that you need to have to compensate for the loss in rental income and mortgage for many years is almost 100% unlikely to cover. Sorry to sound crude but that's like silting one's wrist and slowly letting blood drip out! A buyer may be strong enough to withstand this (holding power) and not die but he is actually becoming weaker and weaker (money draining out).
 

Frodo

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Not every piece of property within Iskandar is a good buy so some legwork and due diligence should be done before making a purchase decision. But whether buy to stay or flip, one must have convictions, stick by it and be true to yourself. Then you won't be so easily swayed by the opinions of others.

I would opine that overall the Iskandar project has brought about many good things into JB, compared to pre-Iskandar period. The movement of cars and people both ways across the causeway is testimony to the Johor-Singapore dynamics. Prior to moving into Iskandar, my family have been driving in regularly for food and shopping, for quick and also inexpensive getaways on certain evenings and even weekends. Now we still enjoy doing the same things, except the difference is that we are now settled in Iskandar.

I would still tell my friends that buying property in Iskandar is a good and viable option to consider. The distance between the two countries is close, transportation is easy...though can be tedious...and the prosperity of JB is in some ways tied to Singapore, even though it lags behind. Some of my friends who were previously "diehard no no" to JB had undergone a change of minds and hearts after they visited us, stayed with us, and have their eyes and minds opened to see beyond the Singapore lifestyle and comfort zone that we are so accustomed to, even though we may complain a lot about Singapore. Some are even talking about considering to buy a property in JB!
 

xebay11

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mpan12 you summarised all my thoughts to a T, your myths of enjoying JB is exactly how I feel too, and if anything if there is a real need to buy for price stability it is a landed home. Right now I feel that all the benefits of enjoying good life in JB can be done by renting or just checking in to a good hotel for the weekends, which is what I am doing now. My HDB residence is almost in the middle of the causeway and Tuas link and I go there every weekends too, I am not missing anything compared with people who invested large sums of money there.

Cheers
 
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Frodo

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mpan12 you summarised all my thoughts to a T, your myths of enjoying JB is exactly how I feel too, and if anything if there is a real need to buy for price stability it is a landed home. Right now I feel that all the benefits of enjoying good life in JB can be done by renting or just checking in to a good hotel for the weekends, which is what I am doing now. My HDB residence is almost in the middle of the causeway and Tuas link and I go there every weekends too, I am not missing anything compared with people who invested large sums of money there.

Cheers

My personal response to the Myths article by TS. Note this is not a rebuttal or attempt to refute, but simply my response as someone who has bought a landed property and currently residenced in JB.

Myth 1 - Medini being like Singapore CBD
NA. Whatever the merits of this tagline, it was never a factor in our decision to buy and stay. To me, the whole Nusajaya area is expensive so we looked to the East.

Myth 2 - More people will settle there once businesses are set up
NA. Again, this was never a factor in our decision to buy and stay. We saw a few properties from West to East, and settled down in the East because we are happy with the surrounding amenities.

Myth 3 - Govt and Peter Lim invested in Iskandar
NA. Again not a factor. To say it bluntly, so what if they did, or did not? My purchase was motivated by personal need, not businessman or govt greed.

Myth 4 and 5 - HSR is game changer.
NA. Maybe but again not a factor for me.....my home is JB, not KL. And we rather prefer to drive to KL. Have car will travel.

Myth 6 - Stay in Iskandar and work in Singapore if cannot rent out JB property
NA. JB property was bought for stay.

Myth 7 - Treat JB property as holiday home
NA since JB property bought for stay.

Myth 8 - Love cheap shopping and food
Very true, I did not buy JB house because of shopping and food. But because it is cheap property compared to Singapore. And still get to enjoy cheap food and shopping!

Myth 9 - Bigger and cheaper does not mean it has value
Depends on what one means by value. For me, bigger and cheaper is good enough a value proposition for me, to rent out HDB and stay in JB.

Myth 10 - Developers releasing units in stages
NA. Whether they bomb the market with all units or trickle the release I bought my present unit for stay because I liked it and the surroundings.

Myth 11 - Retiring there so rental not issue
Hmmm....I don't consider this a myth at all because if I am staying there is logically means I can't be renting it out too.

Myth 12 - Want to retire in big house!
NA...I want big house now!

Myth 13 - Singaporeans will move over to JB and it will boom.
Well I am Singaporean and already made the move with other 5000 Singaporeans as reported in newspapers. Early adopters FTW!

Myth 14 - The place will be vibrant!
Maybe....if so...will be bonus....if not....the current amenities around where I bought is good enough for me.

Myth 15 - I have faith in Iskandar regardless!
I don't think I am now laughing to the bank. But for sure if I still remained in HDB pigeon hole in Singapore and missed the 2013 chance to buy property at that time, I will now be crying for missing the boat to buy a house in JB when it could be gotten for less than RM1 million.

Now for the question you said to ask myself...if I could go back in time would I still buy Iskandar? My answer would be, I wished I could even go further back in time and bought into it when it was below RM500K...and rented out my HDB for passive income earlier!:o
 

xebay11

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Now for the question you said to ask myself...if I could go back in time would I still buy Iskandar? My answer would be, I wished I could even go further back in time and bought into it when it was below RM500K...and rented out my HDB for passive income earlier!:o

No need to go back in time, just marry a Malaysian girl lah ha ha ha ha
 

potter

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My personal response to the Myths article by TS. Note this is not a rebuttal or attempt to refute, but simply my response as someone who has bought a landed property and currently residenced in JB.


Myth 12 - Want to retire in big house!
NA...I want big house now!


Mr Frodo, upsizing ? :biggrin:

noticed many buying up west last time, go north and east can have free upsize unit..sure win! wahaha...:p
 
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Frodo

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My personal response to the Myths article by TS. Note this is not a rebuttal or attempt to refute, but simply my response as someone who has bought a landed property and currently residenced in JB.


Myth 12 - Want to retire in big house!
NA...I want big house now!


Mr Frodo, upsizing ? :biggrin:

Boh lah! I meant that I don't want big house for retirement...but big house for staying way before retirement. LOL!

Anyway, current house already 3200sqft....is quite decent sized liao....but if got heaven drop moolah on me I also wish to upsize to bunglow...hee hee
 
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