Christians are unable to harmonize these questions on noah ark fairytale

In Genesis posits that Noah gathered "kinds" of animals and not all "species," an estimated 16,000 pairs, which raises a few animal-related questions:

How, exactly, did eight extreme senior citizens load, manage and care for 32,000 animals?
What about specialized diets (bamboo for the giant panda, meat for the carnivores, fresh vegetation for the herbivores)?
Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?
How did they separate the predator and prey animals? Did the lion lay with the lamb?
How do you explain the acquisition and loading of animals not indigenous to the Middle East (many separated by oceans), like the polar bear, the sloth, the crocodile, the fruit bat, the anaconda, etc? And how did the penguins and other cold-climate creatures survive in the blistering desert heat?
Wouldn’t freshwater rains from the sky have made the saltwater deadly to ocean marine life? And wouldn’t saltwater have proven equally toxic to all freshwater fish? If water boiled up from beneath the earth’s crust, wouldn’t water temperature changes in the delicate ecosystem have also had a deadly effect?
Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet?

Pray to God you get manna from heaven and shits disappear with a snap of a finger!

Mind you the Creator can cleanup fast.

Wish to note too that in that event (the Great Deluge), Sasquatch (aka Bigfoot) sneaked into the Ark, remained an unseen stowaway, and quietly jumped ship at the end of the voyage and disappeared into the woods. Clever bugger. His cousins, the Yeti, Yaren, Yowie, Orang Pendek also followed his footsteps. They all remain at large till present day.

Cheers!

drifteri said:

In Genesis posits that Noah gathered "kinds" of animals and not all "species," an estimated 16,000 pairs, which raises a few animal-related questions:

How, exactly, did eight extreme senior citizens load, manage and care for 32,000 animals?
What about specialized diets (bamboo for the giant panda, meat for the carnivores, fresh vegetation for the herbivores)?
Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?
How did they separate the predator and prey animals? Did the lion lay with the lamb?
How do you explain the acquisition and loading of animals not indigenous to the Middle East (many separated by oceans), like the polar bear, the sloth, the crocodile, the fruit bat, the anaconda, etc? And how did the penguins and other cold-climate creatures survive in the blistering desert heat?
Wouldn’t freshwater rains from the sky have made the saltwater deadly to ocean marine life? And wouldn’t saltwater have proven equally toxic to all freshwater fish? If water boiled up from beneath the earth’s crust, wouldn’t water temperature changes in the delicate ecosystem have also had a deadly effect?
Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet?

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No one truly knows the answer. But we know one thing: Questions like these are asked because of our current state of mind and observations. Do you know the earth environment, the atmospheric condition, etc 6000 years' ago?. And in any case Noah, I believe was not stupid otherwise God would not have asked him to build the ark. Most likely he brought to the ark baby dinosaurs, baby elephants, baby giraffe. How do you know that Panda 6,000 years ago ate bamboo and not meat. According to some research because of environmental condition changes, certain type of bears changed the dietary habit from meat-eating to non-meat eating or rather to bamboo-eating, and this what we know today. They are the pandas. In fact, pandas is the only type of bear that eat bamboo. All other types of bears (e.g. polar bears) are meat-eating bear.

Thank God, it was Noah's that built the ark and not someone wise.

And you read carefully, the flood was not cause just from rain alone. It was also from the 'fountain of the deep' - meaning the water came out from the deep ocean and today we know that there are thousands upon thousands of springs under the seas that give out water. It is also a well-know marine fact that there are living sea-creatures many many feet below the sea-level. How come they are not burnt to death?

If all the animals that Noah brought into the ark were baby animals and rather fully-grown, then the question on 'predator' is not relevant because as baby animals they couldn't kill one another. You will also notice that the Bible did not mention the age nor the size of the animals. It simply says bring 1 pair (male and female) of unclean animals and 7 pairs (male and female) of clean animals. Nowhere in the Bible says bring into the ark a pair of 50-foot tall dinosaurs, a pair of 25-foot tall giraffe!

And why should animal stalls (or cages) need to be cleaned? I have been to our zoo and bird park many many times and I don't see anyone cleaning animal or bird cages.

Do you know sea-water condition 6000 years ago? Was the water really salty or non-salty? We all don't know. Are all fish salt-water fish or fresh-water fish? We all don't know?

See...we asked those questions you listed above because they are based on what we observed today but 6000 years ago the conditions might be very very different....and I personally think that the environmental conditions were different.

In the Bible we don't seen to have noticed any sign of rainbow mentioned but only after the flood. The rainbow was a sign given by God of His promise that the earth will not be destroyed by flood again. Many experts have come to the conclusion that the earth atmosphere was completely different from today. Because of the condition, rainbow couldn't be formed. It was only after the flood that our atmospheric condition was altered and this allows the formation of rainbow.

Psalm23

drifteri said:

In Genesis posits that Noah gathered "kinds" of animals and not all "species," an estimated 16,000 pairs, which raises a few animal-related questions:

How, exactly, did eight extreme senior citizens load, manage and care for 32,000 animals?
What about specialized diets (bamboo for the giant panda, meat for the carnivores, fresh vegetation for the herbivores)?
Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?
How did they separate the predator and prey animals? Did the lion lay with the lamb?
How do you explain the acquisition and loading of animals not indigenous to the Middle East (many separated by oceans), like the polar bear, the sloth, the crocodile, the fruit bat, the anaconda, etc? And how did the penguins and other cold-climate creatures survive in the blistering desert heat?
Wouldn’t freshwater rains from the sky have made the saltwater deadly to ocean marine life? And wouldn’t saltwater have proven equally toxic to all freshwater fish? If water boiled up from beneath the earth’s crust, wouldn’t water temperature changes in the delicate ecosystem have also had a deadly effect?
Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet?

Click to expand...

DIVA for sure never read creationist writing, and even if he read also too incompetent to read properly! LOL!

It is not 32,000 animals, but 16,000. And this figure is used because of the work done by John Woodmorappe, which for sure DIVA also never heard before, much less read. LOL!

http://www.noahtherealstory.com/the-animals.html

Anyway, whatever questions DIVA thinks he has that can capsize the Ark, well, they have been addressed and his objections debunked. But of course DIVA does not know that or concede that, because he is simply too lazy (but most likely afraid) to pick up Woodmorrappe's book to read. LOL!

xpo2015 said:

Pray to God you get manna from heaven and shits disappear with a snap of a finger!

Mind you the Creator can cleanup fast.

Click to expand...

Are you able to pray to your God to cleanup ebola?

I like your infallible answer. But it has no logic or sense, it will pass only in the delusional community. If you answer can work or proven to work, you solved the problem the best waste manager in the world cannot solve. You will be wanted by many government to be their shit ministar. How about trying out the rest of the question? You have done well.

Psalm23 said:

No one truly knows the answer. But we know one thing: Questions like these are asked because of our current state of mind and observations. Do you know the earth environment, the atmospheric condition, etc 6000 years' ago?. And in any case Noah, I believe was not stupid otherwise God would not have asked him to build the ark. Most likely he brought to the ark baby dinosaurs, baby elephants, baby giraffe. How do you know that Panda 6,000 years ago ate bamboo and not meat. According to some research because of environmental condition changes, certain type of bears changed the dietary habit from meat-eating to non-meat eating or rather to bamboo-eating, and this what we know today. They are the pandas. In fact, pandas is the only type of bear that eat bamboo. All other types of bears (e.g. polar bears) are meat-eating bear.


Psalm23

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Reviewing the 'creative' guessing works between Psalm & Woodmorappe:

Woodmorappe lists 7428 mammals, 4602 birds and 3724 reptiles on the ark. This totals to 15,754 animals on the ark. Amphibians and invertebrates like terrestrial snails are not on the ark. Psalm said nobody knows true what happened and Woodmorappe wrote as if he was monitoring the entire process. Both you and Woodmorappe are very 'creative' and detail scripture writers, perhaps between you and woodmorappe, you appear more honest.

Psalm guessed the pandas were meater eaters, Woodmorappe wrote the pandas were on a bamboo replacement vegetarian diet.

"Woodmorappe attempts to solve the feeding and care problems by comparing the ark to modern mass production farming methods. But there is no justification given to approaching the problem in this fashion. It is not clear that solutions applicable to the care of 8,000 hogs, requiring the same food, water and space, can be applied to 8,000 different animals each requiring a different set of food, water and environmental conditions. Every care and feeding problem is attacked by this approach. And yet he suggests that some of the snakes can be coaxed into eating inert food by stuffing snake skins with meat. He notes that pandas can survive on diets lacking bamboo, but a check of the references shows that the replacement diet is more time-consuming to create than bamboo. This type of feeding is precisely why so many have wondered whether Noah and company had sufficient time to feed thousands of animals."

Woodmorappe imagined the animals were trained before the flood to shit on command into buckets, Psalm claimed cages need not be cleaned.

"When it comes to care on the ark, Woodmorappe enlists the aid of the animals themselves. According to Woodmorappe, prior to the flood, Noah had kept a menagerie and trained the animals to defecate and urinate on command into buckets. They were also trained to leave their pens for exercise and return to their cages on command. Snakes and bats were trained to take inert food. Birds were trained to take sugar water from pots. This, of course, makes Noah the greatest animal trainer in history. How much time Noah and his hired hands required to train 16,000 animals is almost incalculable."

Woodmorappe has many inconsistencies in his lie telling, Psalm is consistent in his made-up theories on science.

"Thus one is left assuming that earthworms are not on the ark. But earlier in the book, Woodmorappe had appealed to earthworms as the agent for decomposing and handling solid waste (p. 34-35). And later, he says that snails were on the ark for food (p. 101). Inconsistencies like this abound throughout the book."

Woodmorappe lies that reptiles give off not heat, psalm lies that fossil is the only evidence of evolution .
"Woodmorappe's treatment of the heat generated up by the animals is quite unworkable. He claims that reptiles give off no heat. This is not true. Their metabolism, while slower than mammals and birds does indeed give off heat. He uses units no physicist would approve of -- Kg heat-producing biomass per cubic meter. If he gives a definition of how much heat is generated by such a unit, I have been unable to find it. Thus, it is impossible to verify his assertion that the animals would not overheat the ark. He relies on wind entering the upper level to cool and ventilate the ark. His calculation is merely wind speed times the window area. But anyone who has ever performed a fluid flow calculation will know that you can not calculate the problem in this fashion. Hydrodynamic equations must be used and friction taken into account. His method for calculating air flow is far too simple."

Full review of woodmorapp's fascinating story: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

Conclusion: Both psalm & woodmorapp would make more creative gospel writers than mark and mattew.

Frodo said:

DIVA for sure never read creationist writing, and even if he read also too incompetent to read properly! LOL!

It is not 32,000 animals, but 16,000. And this figure is used because of the work done by John Woodmorappe, which for sure DIVA also never heard before, much less read. LOL!

http://www.noahtherealstory.com/the-animals.html


Anyway, whatever questions DIVA thinks he has that can capsize the Ark, well, they have been addressed and his objections debunked. But of course DIVA does not know that or concede that, because he is simply too lazy (but most likely afraid) to pick up Woodmorrappe's book to read. LOL!

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Have you read Woodmorappe book? What you read so far are tainted materials on science by creationists.

drifteri said:

Full review of woodmorapp's fascinating story: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

Conclusion: Both psalm & woodmorapp would make more creative gospel writers than mark and mattew.

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Full rebuttal here. http://www.rae.org/pdf/pagesix.pdf

Sorry DIVA to whoop your candy-ass again! Wahahahahaha!

drifteri said:

Reviewing the 'creative' guessing works between Psalm & Woodmorappe:

Woodmorappe lists 7428 mammals, 4602 birds and 3724 reptiles on the ark. This totals to 15,754 animals on the ark......"

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This is incorrect. God never told Noah to bring all animals but 2 (or 7) pairs of each KIND (depending whether they are clean or unclean animals). So, all birds from eagle to dove is just one kind, all dogs from Pekinese to Bulldog is one KIND, all cats from tiger to lion is one KIND, etc...etc....

If you categorized animals in KIND, there are at the very most few hundred and not ten of thousands, and certainly there were birds in the ark because Noah released a dove from the ark.

God Bless
Psalm23

Frodo said:

Full rebuttal here. http://www.rae.org/pdf/pagesix.pdf

Sorry DIVA to whoop your candy-ass again! Wahahahahaha!

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The postscript morton put at the end of his website:
Woodmorappe has responded to this review. Fairness requires that I give that reference. Please come back here when you are finished reading it.

Woodmorappe has criticised Morton's analysis superficially, but answered none of Morton's more trenchant points.
Woodmorappe attempts to find ways that modern solutions to the problems raised over the Ark could be applied with plausibly ancient technology.

Woodmorappe has Noah only taking mammals, birds and reptiles on the Ark (that is to say, that are counted as part of the official pairs – others, such as snails and worms, may be used for food). He finds that he can, taking ‘Kind’ to more-or-less correspond with ‘Genus’, limit himself to having to take only around 16,000 animals, with the median size being that of a rat. Among other things, he estimates an output of 12 Tonnes of ‘excreta’ per day. I don’t know how much food he believes they would eat, but it would have to be at least as much. He believes that this could be dealt with, via the (possible) aide of training, pumps, the placement of the animals, and work by the 8 people on the ark themselves. Whatever method you use, however, you still end up with a pretty stinky boat…

http://creation-by-evolution.blogspot.sg/2011/10/bad-creationist-arguments-theres-such.html

Psalm23 said:

This is incorrect. God never told Noah to bring all animals but 2 (or 7) pairs of each KIND (depending whether they are clean or unclean animals). So, all birds from eagle to dove is just one kind, all dogs from Pekinese to Bulldog is one KIND, all cats from tiger to lion is one KIND, etc...etc....

If you categorized animals in KIND, there are at the very most few hundred and not ten of thousands, and certainly there were birds in the ark because Noah released a dove from the ark.

God Bless
Psalm23

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You contradicted Woodmorappe and common creationist belief on the total animals. But your figure of a few hundred sounds more plausible. Do you know kind means species in the old days?

How do you explain the diversity of kind(ancient usage, modern usage is spieces) after the flood?

How did 8 people produce over 5,000 of today’s ethnic groups in only a few hundred generations? They practice biblical condoned incest?

drifteri said:

You contradicted Woodmorappe and common creationist belief on the total animals. But your figure of a few hundred sounds more plausible. Do you know kind means species in the old days?

How do you explain the diversity of kind(ancient usage, modern usage is spieces) after the flood?

How did 8 people produce over 5,000 of today’s ethnic groups in only a few hundred generations? They practice biblical condoned incest?

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LOL!!! How does DIVA know that kind = species in old days? Who told you that?

Frodo said:

LOL!!! How does DIVA know that kind = species in old days? Who told you that?

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Please lah, give rev. psalm the opportunity to answer. He is smarter and more knowledgeable than you. He has an improved explanation of the ark over your Woodmorappe's ark. You worry first how to snake yourself out of Woodmorappe's fallen ark.

Psalm23 said:

This is incorrect. God never told Noah to bring all animals but 2 (or 7) pairs of each KIND (depending whether they are clean or unclean animals). So, all birds from eagle to dove is just one kind, all dogs from Pekinese to Bulldog is one KIND, all cats from tiger to lion is one KIND, etc...etc....

If you categorized animals in KIND, there are at the very most few hundred and not ten of thousands, and certainly there were birds in the ark because Noah released a dove from the ark.

God Bless
Psalm23

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I use your data on Woodmorappe's calculation and do a recalculation.

There must be at least 2x15,754 =31,508 animals on Woodmorappe's ark (this is very closed to the figure of 32,000 animals in my first post).

And up to the possible of 7x15,754=110,278 animals at most(Just a likelihood if all were unclean)

With only 8 crews and no mechanical-electrical technologies, Woodmorappe's ark can't cruise. Perhaps possible in a story.

You said there are at most a few hundreds animals, but that can be any number between 100 to 999. Can you suggest a number? and i will do a similar calculation.

drifteri said:

I use your data on Woodmorappe's calculation and do a recalculation.

There must be at least 2x15,754 =31,508 animals on Woodmorappe's ark (this is very closed to the figure of 32,000 animals in my first post).

And up to the possible of 7x15,754=110,278 animals at most(Just a likelihood if all were unclean)

With only 8 crews and no mechanical-electrical technologies, Woodmorappe's ark can't cruise. Perhaps possible in a story.

You said there are at most a few hundreds animals, but that can be any number between 100 to 999. Can you suggest a number? and i will do a similar calculation.

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If you are serious, you can go to zoology textbook to find out how many KINDS of animals. Remember, KIND (as is written in the Bible) is a wide zoological categorization. For example, all dogs and wolves (e.g.) belong to one KIND and they are categorized as Canine, all cats like Tiger, Lion, Leopard, Juguar, etc are categorized as Cat KIND. Please consult zoology textbook if you are serious but I don't think there are more than 300 - 500 KINDs of animals if this categorization is being use. Let me then calculate for you. Let's assume 500 KINDs, and Noah for all his generosity brought in 7 pairs each, you will have 500 x 14 = 7,000 (and not even 31,000!)

Also, note that the Ark is not meant to be 'sailed' but simply float and you don't need any mechanical devices to float the Ark so long the materials used is lighter than water. Since the Ark was made of wood and wood is lighter than water, it will certainly float. Just plain commonsense.

Psalm23

drifteri said:

Please lah, give rev. psalm the opportunity to answer. He is smarter and more knowledgeable than you. He has an improved explanation of the ark over your Woodmorappe's ark. You worry first how to snake yourself out of Woodmorappe's fallen ark.

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LOL! You no need to worry for me lah. I won't compete with the Psalm23 on this. I just want to expose the poverty of your own belief system. As someone said, those who live in glasshouse should not throw stones at people's house, which is what you are doing here. LOL!

BTW, already told you that Woodmorappe said it was 16,000 animals on the Ark, so 8000 kinds as my website http://www.noahtherealstory.com/the-animals.html clearly said. You blind huh, DIVA? LOL!

Psalm23 said:

If you are serious, you can go to zoology textbook to find out how many KINDS of animals. Remember, KIND (as is written in the Bible) is a wide zoological categorization. For example, all dogs and wolves (e.g.) belong to one KIND and they are categorized as Canine, all cats like Tiger, Lion, Leopard, Juguar, etc are categorized as Cat KIND. Please consult zoology textbook if you are serious but I don't think there are more than 300 - 500 KINDs of animals if this categorization is being use. Let me then calculate for you. Let's assume 500 KINDs, and Noah for all his generosity brought in 7 pairs each, you will have 500 x 14 = 7,000 (and not even 31,000!)

Also, note that the Ark is not meant to be 'sailed' but simply float and you don't need any mechanical devices to float the Ark so long the materials used is lighter than water. Since the Ark was made of wood and wood is lighter than water, it will certainly float. Just plain commonsense.

Psalm23

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You writeup is all screwed-up. I checked the wiki, canine is the biological Canidae family, not kind. You miss out the other calculation, 500x2=1000 animals.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [ Gen. 6:15]. Could an ark that size be made seaworthy?

John Woodmorappe lying with statistics: What kinds were aboard the ark?
Woodmorappe rbitrarily exclude all animals except mammals, birds, and reptiles. However, many other animals, particularly land arthropods, must also have been on the ark for two reasons:

The Bible says so. Gen. 7:8 puts on the ark all creatures that move along the ground, with no further qualifications. Lev. 11:42 includes arthropods (creatures that "walk on many feet") in such a category.

They couldn't survive outside. Gen. 7:21-23 says every land creature not aboard the ark perished. And indeed, not one insect species in a thousand could survive for half a year on the vegetation mats proposed by some creationists. Most other land arthropods, snails, slugs, earthworms, etc. would also have to be on the ark to survive.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html