SDP Teo soh lung: I am disappointed with the opposition parties in singapore

tanwahp · Nov 4, 2014

yellowarse said:
I may not agree with everything Papsmearer says, but I'll say that he's one of the most vocal anti-PAP critic here, definitely more oppo than all those 'oppo' supporters who spend all their time attacking other oppo parties instead of the PAP.

This is one of his best threads: http://www.sammyboy.com/showthread....swindle-in-modern-times&p=1842434#post1842434

Of course, but why stop at Papsmearer. I would confer the same title of "most vocal anti-PAP critics" to Methinks, Cosmos, SgGoneWrong and others. They are so vocal, they would criticize even when PAP is doing something right, or oppose PAP when PAP was implementing an idea that SDP previously suggested. I can never be in that league. It's a matter of principle.

3_M · Nov 4, 2014

yellowarse said:
Precisely. That's why I said: Above all vote according to your principles and ideological stance, so that the electorate knows what you stand for.

Then let the voters decide whether expectations have been met or misplaced, whether the party's position is so similar to the incumbent's there's essentially much agreement and little opposition to talk about.

It not something that works out of a black box but an informed judgement exercise by the voters.

Electorates should know where the party stance is as everything was listed clearly in the manifesto. It the policies that the party sells to the voters for them to make an informed decision.

It consider a betrayal of voters' trust if the party votes in parliament contradict from what was listed in their manifesto. By far I haven't really see any such example for WP.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

eErotica69 said:
WP cannot appeal to middle voters? See their results inPunggol East and you get the point.

We can argue till the cow comes home, but best is to see in 2016, who get more seats, WP or SDP.

the purpose of my posts and my comments is the hope that some of the over 1000 non members who sign on this forum daily will be some of these "middle voters" you talk about. and I hope that by reading my opinions, they will see that the WP is really PAP Lite and hence they will conclude like I did that the WP is not a real oppo and consequently give their vote somewhere else. But the time will come and we will see whether it comes thru or not, and whether my voice is heard or not.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

winnipegjets said:
If WP is going to be PAP lite, then the rest of the opposition parties should form a coalition to compete against the PAP and WP. It is not difficult to characterize WP as an adjunct of the PAP, given its current performance in Parliament.

I think they have to seriously consider this. But the rest of the oppo parties are strangely silent on the WP voting record. Or are they too complacent to check?

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

SgParent said:
if wp dun vote for the reduced salaries, will the white scums get to keep original amount which was higher?

The PAP controls 80 seats and the WP only 7. Whether the WP votes for or against the national budget approving the minister's salary, the budget will be passed anyway because the PAP has 80 votes. But by voting against it, they show their stand against obscene salaries. I think you have no idea of how a political system works.

3_M · Nov 4, 2014

tanwahp said:
Of course, but why stop at Papsmearer. I would confer the same title of "most vocal anti-PAP critics" to Methinks, Cosmos, SgGoneWrong and others. They are so vocal, they would criticize even when PAP is doing something right, or oppose PAP when PAP was implementing an idea that SDP previously suggested. I can never be in that league. It's a matter of principle.

It futile to argue on the behavior of any individual instead of looking at the issue in totality. Most moderate pro opposition voters will vote WP simply because they are anything-but-PAP. To the Centrists voters, WP present a viable choice as it allows them to vote opposition without upsetting the status quo by too much. The only bloc having an issue here are the Hardcore opposition supporters who constitute only a small percentage of overall opposition base voters but often very vocal.

If I look at the statistic, it simply doesn't make sense for WP to give up a larger chunk of centrists voters bloc just to please the hardcore minority. Doing so is essentially committing the mistakes of SDP.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

SgParent said:
and you trust the braddell road brothel will publish that statement or rerun on their stations?

or more likely they will smear wp oppose even $200-$240/yr for our poor true pink singaporean children, shame on them, blah blah blah?

Again you show your utter lack of understanding of the workings of the singapore parliament and yet you choose to demonstrate your ignorance by coming here and making an ass of yourself.

All debates and discussions, and questions and answers sessions are recorded in Parliament by the Official Reports Department. These are Official Singapore Parliament reports and are available for sale and free on their website. Anything said by both the oppo and the PAP are recorded there very much like a court transcriptionist records a court trial. that is where i find comments made by members of the WP regarding individual bills before the Parliament. If the WP had vehemently opposed the Edusave bill, their reasoning would have been in the official report. Also they have the ability to freely publish their segment of the bill debate in their newspaper The Hammer or on the WP website, and allow the world to see and read their stand. In this day and age, u do not need the Shit Times to stymy and screw with your press release. Roy is living proof of this.

3_M · Nov 4, 2014

tanwahp said:
Of course, but why stop at Papsmearer. I would confer the same title of "most vocal anti-PAP critics" to Methinks, Cosmos, SgGoneWrong and others. They are so vocal, they would criticize even when PAP is doing something right, or oppose PAP when PAP was implementing an idea that SDP previously suggested. I can never be in that league. It's a matter of principle.

It futile to argue on the behavior of any individual instead of looking at the issue in totality. Most moderate pro opposition voters will vote WP simply because they are anything-but-PAP. To the Centrists voters, WP present a viable choice as it allows them to vote opposition without upsetting the status quo by too much. The only bloc having an issue here are the Hardcore opposition supporters who constitute only a small percentage of overall opposition base voters but often very vocal.

If I look at the statistic, it simply doesn't make sense for WP to give up a larger chunk of centrists voters bloc just to please the hardcore minority. Doing so is essentially committing the mistakes of SDP.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

3_M said:
It futile to argue on the behavior of any individual instead of looking at the issue in totality. Most moderate pro opposition voters will vote WP simply because they are anything-but-PAP. To the Centrists voters, WP present a viable choice as it allows them to vote opposition without upsetting the status quo by too much. The only bloc having an issue here are the Hardcore opposition supporters who constitute only a small percentage of overall opposition base voters but often very vocal.

If I look at the statistic, it simply doesn't make sense for WP to give up a larger chunk of centrists voters bloc just to please the hardcore minority. Doing so is essentially committing the mistakes of SDP.

U make vocal hardcore anti PAP as a bad thing that will scare off the centrist voters. SInce when will this happen? oppos all over the world, especially in singapore have to be vocal for the simple reason that the incumbent is always drowning out their voice. in singapore where the PAP controls the media, its even harder for the oppo to be heard. They cannot be whispering, they have to be shouting. Voters are not stupid. They have been fed the PAP line for decades. Now with social media like this forum, they have an alternative view. Your claim is that this alternative view is from the vocal oppo. SO what? The voter will make up his mind whether the vocal oppo's viewpoint makes sense or not. Or if its just the ravings of lunatics. I am considered one of the most vocal anti PAP voices here. But I have always tried to support my position with logic and facts. Any centrist voter is welcome to read my comments and opinions and decide for themselves whether I am lying and crazy or whether what I say has a kernel of real truth. Than they decide at the poll, but at least they have another view of the situation.

Therefore, I say that if the WP vocally state their case logically and support it with facts, and be very anti PAP about it at the same time, they will not give up a chuck of this voting bloc. In fact, I would think they should bring in even more of these centrist voters to vote for them. But when they are spineless like they are, centrist voters will see that they are no better than the PAP.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

yellowarse said:
No. Because 80 PAP MPs will vote 'aye' anyway. But WP would have won a moral victory by showing Singaporeans where it stood on the issue of million-dollar ministerial salaries, defence budget (2nd highest per capita in the first world), no universal healthcare, inadequate education allocation, etc. (Of course WP must make its stand clear why it wouldn't want to vote for the budget.)

U are absolutely correct. SOme people like Sgparent don't have a clue how a parliament works.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

SgParent said:
in fact some fake 40% played up the fact that wp also supported for $m salary for ministars.

because they actually did vote for the minister's million $ by approving the budget. which part of that is wrong? Why is that playing up the fact? Its is a fact, and they did it. merely pointing it out is playing it up? and by merely pointing it out I am a fake? Your kind of fucked up logic is really making the WP look like fucktards, because apparently, you are the quality of their supporters.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

tanwahp said:
I didn't say governance is about voting against PAP laws. I also didn't say the opposition has voted against every PAP law to death. Which dictionary of yours defines it that way?

To me, they have. It's on record. You are entitled to your different opinion. By the way, opinion is not fact or truth.

Voting records are tedious to compile, so it is interesting you claim to know that the benchmark is 90%. I never claimed to know the voting records, I only said I know the opposition doesn't vote against all bills because the majority are functional bills.

You are simply regurgitating. No opposition in the world is ranked based on how many bills they vote against. All the opposition in the world will probably fail in that respect. Moreover, some bills were what the opposition had been calling for all along and the PAP decided to make these changes after 2011.

Exactly. If amendments were made to improve the Land Transport Authority of Singapore Act, the Agri-Food and Veterinary Authority Act, the Sale of Food Act etc. all which make up the MAJORITY OF THE BILLS, they involve your livelihood and is "not PAP". PAP as the government is still the one that passes the laws that are "not PAP" but defines your livelihood, why should WP vote against them? This is incoherent.

That's not what I see. I see the PAP govt confiscating land from Aljunied after 2011, refusing to do a proper handover causing failure of audit then using this failure of audit to tekan AHPETC further, finding fault with dirty hawker centres and rental of TC premises, things they themselves failed when they were in charge of Aljunied. Are yours really "facts"?

You are also implying that voters of Aljunied do not have control over the results in Aljunied. People who voted for the opposition and seeing their ward fall to the opposition have been elated to see that happen. I see your statement as an insult to opposition voters in Aljunied.

All the transcripts of every word said in parliament by the oppo and the PAP are available through the SIngapore Parliament Reports. U are welcome to read through them and tell me where the WP vigorously debated the issues against the PAP. Also refer to their their own website and see how really friendly they are with the PAP bills.

Papsmearer · Nov 4, 2014

tanwahp said:
And I would not expect coffeeshop talk to amount to anything more. The bill wasn't related to foreign scholarship. The government is already giving foreign scholarship which is why you can cite so. Your intention may be to "借题发挥", but there is a better way in PQs, that is Yee JJ's favourite topic.

Totally off tangent.

If you are in a wrong channel all the time, you can make mistakes in a forum like this just like I often do, but national politics is different.

Really, u should educate yourself first before u come here and make an ass of yourself. How many of these parliamentary reports have you read?

When you read the reports as I have, you will find that when the speaker gives the MP the floor, he is free to speak on any topics he wants to within his allotted time. Many MPs during the debates on certain bills will speak about their own experience, or use anecdotes or 3rd hand stories, etc. when u read these reports, u will see that these fuckers really like to hear the sound of their voice. What relevance does their personal experience or anecdotes have on the bills? In many cases, absolutely nothing. many MPs do go off on a tangent during the debates. Why do you think there are so many MPs sleeping during the sessions. because its boring to hear their colleagues go off topic. by The way, Edusave amendment bill when you boil it down is about the welfare of the students of singapore. Therefore, when millions of dollars are going to foreign students and not to them, it affects their welfare.

the second reason you would bring up the foreign scholarship is so that you can whack the PAP, embarass them and make their paltry $240 per year as dog scraps on the floor compared to what other foreign students get. This is basic politics. Always go on the offensive and never miss an opportunity to put the heat on the opponent. It may be off topic, but it will be broadcasted and it will be in the official report. And you can put those comments on your party's website too. It will at least make the population aware that there are these $240 are peanuts compared to what thousands of foreign students are getting. The elections is coming soon. When are you going to wait until?

SgParent · Nov 4, 2014

Papsmearer said:
Again you show your utter lack of understanding of the workings of the singapore parliament and yet you choose to demonstrate your ignorance by coming here and making an ass of yourself.

All debates and discussions, and questions and answers sessions are recorded in Parliament by the Official Reports Department. These are Official Singapore Parliament reports and are available for sale and free on their website. Anything said by both the oppo and the PAP are recorded there very much like a court transcriptionist records a court trial. that is where i find comments made by members of the WP regarding individual bills before the Parliament. If the WP had vehemently opposed the Edusave bill, their reasoning would have been in the official report. Also they have the ability to freely publish their segment of the bill debate in their newspaper The Hammer or on the WP website, and allow the world to see and read their stand. In this day and age, u do not need the Shit Times to stymy and screw with your press release. Roy is living proof of this.

again, living in your dream and your wishful thinking.

how many people on the streets bothered to research parliamentary debate?

how many believe more on what's allowed in the braddell rd brothel publications and on nightly news?

you are romanticizing this whole roy incident. get out of your armchair, go talk to real people on the streets to see if more see him as a people's champion or a child's bully, troublemaker.

the fact that csj needed a press conference to publish his loveletters with wp and his wedding proposal for wp to run the tc is proof enough that even he accepts that your silver bullet social media is 2nd to press media.

tanwahp · Nov 4, 2014

3_M said:
It futile to argue on the behavior of any individual instead of looking at the issue in totality. Most moderate pro opposition voters will vote WP simply because they are anything-but-PAP. To the Centrists voters, WP present a viable choice as it allows them to vote opposition without upsetting the status quo by too much. The only bloc having an issue here are the Hardcore opposition supporters who constitute only a small percentage of overall opposition base voters but often very vocal.

If I look at the statistic, it simply doesn't make sense for WP to give up a larger chunk of centrists voters bloc just to please the hardcore minority. Doing so is essentially committing the mistakes of SDP.

Yellowarse can't be more wrong if he thinks just because an anti-PAP chap criticizes WP, that criticism of WP is valid because he is anti-PAP. He will know he's wrong if we turn the scenario around and some anti-PAP chap who is pro-WP and criticizes SDP all the time. I don't think any of them will think the criticisms of SDP is justified but just think this person is "fearful" of SDP.

As you once said, it is a zero sum game. Some supporters of any opposition party other than WP think the best scenario is to have all opposition parties start from the same starting line and to do that, PAP needs a net gain over a complete loss by WP. Of course the gain by PAP would be meaningless without a gain for their favourite opposition, so they need to keep up with anti-PAP activity. However PAP is still a lesser enemy since they need PAP to break-even while they need WP a net loss. That is why so much efforts is being put in to promote absurd, impossible and disingenuous standards like "good opposition = vote against all bills" or "approving budget = approving ministers pay", which they know the WP will not comply at the expense of being "PAP lite" or comply to look silly and really get voted out.

They are, in short, putting labels on both the "damn dos" and the "damn don'ts". And notice the timing. WP didn't change, but they did - nearer to election.

tanwahp · Nov 4, 2014

Papsmearer said:
When you read the reports as I have, you will find that when the speaker gives the MP the floor, he is free to speak on any topics he wants to within his allotted time. Many MPs during the debates on certain bills will speak about their own experience, or use anecdotes or 3rd hand stories, etc. when u read these reports, u will see that these fuckers really like to hear the sound of their voice. What relevance does their personal experience or anecdotes have on the bills? In many cases, absolutely nothing. many MPs do go off on a tangent during the debates. Why do you think there are so many MPs sleeping during the sessions. because its boring to hear their colleagues go off topic. by The way, Edusave amendment bill when you boil it down is about the welfare of the students of singapore. Therefore, when millions of dollars are going to foreign students and not to them, it affects their welfare.

the second reason you would bring up the foreign scholarship is so that you can whack the PAP, embarass them and make their paltry $240 per year as dog scraps on the floor compared to what other foreign students get. This is basic politics. Always go on the offensive and never miss an opportunity to put the heat on the opponent. It may be off topic, but it will be broadcasted and it will be in the official report. And you can put those comments on your party's website too. It will at least make the population aware that there are these $240 are peanuts compared to what thousands of foreign students are getting. The elections is coming soon. When are you going to wait until?

You are saying WP is PAP lite and want WP MPs to emulate those boring speeches by PAP MPs?

Yes, you may digress in the text of your speech, but the ultimate point is to say "I support the bill" or "I oppose the bill". Which was your point, wasn't it?

You also haven't make up your mind on whether WP is quiet or you do not like their approach. If they are quiet, how come you can find so many speeches made by them.

Election is coming? Don't have to wait till election. A year after the election, in 2012, Yee JJ queried on the number of foreign scholarships. What the minister revealed astounded the politically interested and was carried not only in WP media but TOC and TRE. Why bother to say "election is coming" since the earlier it is raised by WP, the more intentional you would pretend not to notice what WP has said.

SgParent · Nov 4, 2014

Papsmearer said:
because they actually did vote for the minister's million $ by approving the budget. which part of that is wrong? Why is that playing up the fact? Its is a fact, and they did it. merely pointing it out is playing it up? and by merely pointing it out I am a fake? Your kind of fucked up logic is really making the WP look like fucktards, because apparently, you are the quality of their supporters.

thank you for proving my pt.

fake 40% like you purposely or subconsciously ignoring wp proposed bottom-up calculation and their speeches against $m ministar salary

if you really read parliamentary records, you would not be lying so blatantly and if people generally bothered about what's not reported, they would have expose your lies.

can you repeat wp-voted-for-$m-ministar-salary and then go read these?
http://wp.sg/2012/01/ministerial-salary-review-pritam/
http://wp.sg/2012/01/ministerial-salary-review-geraldgiam/
http://wp.sg/2012/01/ministerial-salary-review-faisal/

reply me again by cut&paste their closing words if wp voted yes or no.

mojito · Nov 5, 2014

eErotica69 said:
Who claimed that frenchbriefs is SDP? Show proof. Jiu hu kia supports UMNO not SDP.

You and PAPsmearer go around attacking WP claiming that they are fake opposing, you call me PAP dog, while you get offended when other call you SDPPY?? Come on.. Mr SgGoneWrong..

You think PAP or even WP are afraid of SDP?? Wait lah, wait for them to win more seats like WP first then talk...

I also support Najib ah. I have repeated many times in this forum that i support Najib and he would make a better PM than that clown prince. Why you no call me UMNO jiu hu kia, call me sdppy? So strange!

Best and most likely explanation is you are a closet pappy. You approve of pap policies but believe they have gone out of hand lately and needs some prodding in the form of wp. You are probably not wrong to think some sinkies think that way, or that your group is the "silent majority" as you always claim, but if punks like you and that matlander scum agorophobia think that more people means majority, and majority dictates and can force their wills and take away rights of the minority, i got news for you. Some day PAP will pass some shit law where YOU are the minority being taken advantaged of. Please don't cry and say why wp don't do something, just wayang only. Majority wins. Suck it up and suffer in silence. Haha. Everyone gets a turn being hazed by the hall bullies.

mojito · Nov 5, 2014

Papsmearer said:
WP is PAP lite, they have been winning seats based on the pass track record and sacrifice of JB Jeyaratnam. People remember him and how fiercely he fought the PAP. People do not realise his party has now been hijacked by PAP sympathizers and collaborators. They therefore unwittingly vote the WP into parliament.

You have to admit that whatever the wp is doing, it is very different from what jbj was doing and they showed results. I am in the opinion they should not alter their winning formula substantially. Like a small business, expansion can be organic and orderly or aggressive and risky. Consumers cannot expect business owners to take their advice on expansion strategy. Remember their goal is to maximize profits, not make customers happy. Asian values.

Much as wp did not meet my expectations, a weaker wp would be very bad. Let's not confuse them and meddle with a winning formula. I like the PAP to be obliterated and that is only going to be accelerated with the clown prince is at the helm.

SgParent · Nov 5, 2014

mojito said:
You have to admit that whatever the wp is doing, it is very different from what jbj was doing and they showed results. I am in the opinion they should not alter their winning formula substantially. Like a small business, expansion can be organic and orderly or aggressive and risky. Consumers cannot expect business owners to take their advice on expansion strategy. Remember their goal is to maximize profits, not make customers happy. Asian values.

Much as wp did not meet my expectations, a weaker wp would be very bad. Let's not confuse them and meddle with a winning formula. I like the PAP to be obliterated and that is only going to be accelerated with the clown prince is at the helm.

thumbs up.

but i would like to add, that while we allow wp to expand, maximize profit, etc, etc, etc, we consumers goal is to let it grow to provide real competition that always, always benefits the consumers. this goes for any other serious business owners, sdp, nsp, whatever-p, except own goal kings and queens, spoilers, etc, etc which only push us back to monopoly situation again

end in mind is to have 2, 3 or maybe at most 4 similarly sized competitors to cancel off 1 another.

SDP Teo soh lung: I am disappointed with the opposition parties in singapore

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