Pope Francis: Evolution is real

Agoraphobic · Feb 12, 2015

Fine. Then which God? Or Gods?

Our species has been looking for answers to numerous questions about our existence, how we came to be. We are still working on it. Some of you may be able to accept the notion that "God made us. God made this, and God made that. He made everything." And that's the way it is. So accept it. Well. maybe there is a creator, but we're still trying to understand and unravel the questions from a logical, scientific, standpoint. Not just blindly accepting what the Great Book says. Humans since early times have believed that their God created the world, and them. The Nordic peoples had their stories, so did the Greeks, the Egyptians, even the Australian Aborigines had their own stories. The came Christianity, and soon after the other religions came to be viewed as ancient superstitions, and most of the world believed that Abraham's Yahweh was the superior one. And he made everything. Then came the scientific age, and we've come to know the world (and the universe) wasn't made in seven days as preached by the Great Book and the sages who wrote it. So, we're still looking and searching. Maybe there is, but if so, God is not what we've been told God is. You know what God is?

Cheers!

Frodo said:
Oh you do, in fact. Unless you can show that there is no God who made this universe and world we live in?

Frodo · Feb 12, 2015

Agoraphobic said:
Fine. Then which God? Or Gods?

Our species has been looking for answers to numerous questions about our existence, how we came to be. We are still working on it. Some of you may be able to accept the notion that "God made us. God made this, and God made that. He made everything." And that's the way it is. So accept it. Well. maybe there is a creator, but we're still trying to understand and unravel the questions from a logical, scientific, standpoint. Not just blindly accepting what the Great Book says. Humans since early times have believed that their God created the world, and them. The Nordic peoples had their stories, so did the Greeks, the Egyptians, even the Australian Aborigines had their own stories. The came Christianity, and soon after the other religions came to be viewed as ancient superstitions, and most of the world believed that Abraham's Yahweh was the superior one. And he made everything. Then came the scientific age, and we've come to know the world (and the universe) wasn't made in seven days as preached by the Great Book and the sages who wrote it. So, we're still looking and searching. Maybe there is, but if so, God is not what we've been told God is. You know what God is?

Cheers!

Well known principle of Occam's Razor, why talk about gods when just one God will suffice?

This can be answered from a logical point of view. In the first place, there is nothing illogical or irrational about there being a Creator who made the universe the way it is, intelligible to intelligent beings like humans who can explore the universe because the universe displays orderliness, which is hardly characteristic of random chance events, as atheists believe.

From a scientific point of view, the atheist is demanding an absurd answer. It is impossible to prove scientifically an event that happened historically, since historical events are one-time not-repeatable events. Atheists who demand scientific proof that the universe was created such and such a time ago DO NOT understand science, its nature and its limitations and domain. You cannot scientifically prove that you were born say 30 years ago. But you can prove it in a historical way, by appealing to eye-witnesses or legal documents.

Christians do not blindly accept the Bible, we accept the Bible by faith, and it is a reasonable faith not a blind faith. In fact I think I have pretty much shown that when it comes to blind faith, the atheist is guilty of that. :wink:

It is true that almost every culture has a creation story. Why is that so? I think that's because there is a common shared memory of a truth that is lost and distorted in many ways, but I believe that the Bible has the true and correct account.

Lastly, you can know there is a God without knowing very much about God. Using logic and reason we can conclude that the universe must have a Maker. And we can draw certain conclusions about the Creator based on the creation. But to know the Creator would require Him to make Himself known to us. That's where special revelation aka the Holy Bible comes into the picture.

Agoraphobic · Feb 12, 2015

To put it in a nutshell, you cannot prove God exists, and that this God thing created the universe, and everything else in it. But you have faith, which to you is enough.

Sorry, that is not convincing enough for many others. For me, Christianity is a good guide book, moral guide, ethical standards. But it does not explain many other issues in life, not that I expect it to - which is why I do not rely or depend on it like Believers do. If we look at things from a distance, they may seem disorderly and random, but when we examine it closer, say at the atomic level, there is order, and you can even devise mathematical equations to explain and even predict future events, it can be achieved. Example, when you shoot the striker at a bunch of targets on a pool/billiard table, the balls seem to bounce and roll all over the surface, but when you isolate all that movement and look at each individual ball, you can make sense of why it moves the way it did. The only think we are unable to formulate mathematical equations are for emotions, which probably is because we do not know how to. Yet.

So you believe the Bible is true. Would like to know where the Tower of Babel was located. It is a physical structure, so, any remains? Evidence of its existence? How high was it built before God made people to speak in different languages?

Cheers!

Frodo said:
Well known principle of Occam's Razor, why talk about gods when just one God will suffice?

This can be answered from a logical point of view. In the first place, there is nothing illogical or irrational about there being a Creator who made the universe the way it is, intelligible to intelligent beings like humans who can explore the universe because the universe displays orderliness, which is hardly characteristic of random chance events, as atheists believe.

From a scientific point of view, the atheist is demanding an absurd answer. It is impossible to prove scientifically an event that happened historically, since historical events are one-time not-repeatable events. Atheists who demand scientific proof that the universe was created such and such a time ago DO NOT understand science, its nature and its limitations and domain. You cannot scientifically prove that you were born say 30 years ago. But you can prove it in a historical way, by appealing to eye-witnesses or legal documents.

Christians do not blindly accept the Bible, we accept the Bible by faith, and it is a reasonable faith not a blind faith. In fact I think I have pretty much shown that when it comes to blind faith, the atheist is guilty of that. It is true that almost every culture has a creation story. Why is that so? I think that's because there is a common shared memory of a truth that is lost and distorted in many ways, but I believe that the Bible has the true and correct account.

Lastly, you can know there is a God without knowing very much about God. Using logic and reason we can conclude that the universe must have a Maker. And we can draw certain conclusions about the Creator based on the creation. But to know the Creator would require Him to make Himself known to us. That's where special revelation aka the Holy Bible comes into the picture.

Frodo · Feb 12, 2015

Agoraphobic said:
To put it in a nutshell, you cannot prove God exists, and that this God thing created the universe, and everything else in it. But you have faith, which to you is enough.

Sorry, that is not convincing enough for many others. For me, Christianity is a good guide book, moral guide, ethical standards. But it does not explain many other issues in life, not that I expect it to - which is why I do not rely or depend on it like Believers do. If we look at things from a distance, they may seem disorderly and random, but when we examine it closer, say at the atomic level, there is order, and you can even devise mathematical equations to explain and even predict future events, it can be achieved. Example, when you shoot the striker at a bunch of targets on a pool/billiard table, the balls seem to bounce and roll all over the surface, but when you isolate all that movement and look at each individual ball, you can make sense of why it moves the way it did. The only think we are unable to formulate mathematical equations are for emotions, which probably is because we do not know how to. Yet.

So you believe the Bible is true. Would like to know where the Tower of Babel was located. It is a physical structure, so, any remains? Evidence of its existence? How high was it built before God made people to speak in different languages?

Cheers!

Yes, I cannot scientifically prove to you that God exists, but that does not mean that I cannot logically prove that God exists using good reasoning. On the other hand, atheism fails to even explain the existence of reason and logic on which they boast of. And they make the illogical step of believing that the whole universe just made itself.

Note that I did not say that faith is all I need. I said that faith is a reasonable faith. Again I think I have demonstrated that in my postings how reason and logic and evidence points to God. I did not say you just gotta have faith. Faith is grounded in Jesus, the Logos, logic.

No Christian takes the Bible to be an encyclopedia about life. But it gives us what we need to know in order to have a restored relationship with God. You say there is order at the atominc level. Others who rave quantum mechanics may think otherwise. But whichever way we go, all these begs an adequate cause. Saying "don't know" is like a cop out to evade acknowledging that God is the only right answer. You can talk about any law of nature, and I tell you they all beg an adequate cause, because mindless randon events cannot be the stuff that these things are made of.

I don't know where you are going with the Tower of Babel thing. I don't see how the failure to pinpoint "Nah this is the Tower of Babel!" would justify atheism in anyway.

Agoraphobic · Feb 13, 2015

I brought up the story of the Tower of Babel as an example of the Bible's incompatibility with truth as happened in our history. If all the peoples of the earth existed together in one place and achieved a significant level of development (building technology, language) before they started speaking in different languages and left the site of the Tower, then how come civilizations from Europe still could come into primitive communities in Australia, Papua New Guinea, South America etc much later? These tribes of people must have evolved differently from Asians and Europpeans. Or were they made from different God(s)?

Cheers!

Frodo said:
.......................

I don't know where you are going with the Tower of Babel thing. I don't see how the failure to pinpoint "Nah this is the Tower of Babel!" would justify atheism in anyway.

Frodo · Feb 13, 2015

Agoraphobic said:
I brought up the story of the Tower of Babel as an example of the Bible's incompatibility with truth as happened in our history. If all the peoples of the earth existed together in one place and achieved a significant level of development (building technology, language) before they started speaking in different languages and left the site of the Tower, then how come civilizations from Europe still could come into primitive communities in Australia, Papua New Guinea, South America etc much later? These tribes of people must have evolved differently from Asians and Europpeans. Or were they made from different God(s)?

Cheers!

That's not a very difficult question at all. I heard that all it takes is one generation to produce a primitive group of people. Probably the further that a group of humans move away from the central point aka Babel, over time it becomes more isolated and more likely to lose the knowledge and know how of the former group from where it come from.

check out https://biblescienceguy.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/8-tower-of-babel-origin-of-people-groups/

But the problem facing the atheist is how he explains intelligence, reason, logic in the first place. Without recourse to God you are left with the absurd idea that non-rational things can give rise to rational beings capable of employing that intelligence for its own progress and advancement. That's a bigger miracle requiring bigger faith.

Agoraphobic · Feb 16, 2015

It is impossible for such stray aways to lose that much knowledge. They might lose certain methods of making/forming tools with metals as it may not be available in their new lands, but things like agriculture? Animal husbandry? Cloth weaving? Even concepts of religion are markedly different.

The Australian agorigines do not possess any form of agriculture, and were hunter gatherers when white men discovered them. The American Indians have not yet invented the wheel, and the Chinese had totally different ideas about Gods from the Middle-Eastern semitic peoples where the story of Babel is based. It is evident that hominid diaspora out of East Africa better explains these differences than the Biblical story of humankind spreading out from Shinar or Mesopotamia, the suspected location of Babel. The idea of the heavenly-father God changed the ways people thought of the all-conquering, powerful Gods of pre-Christian times, and even this idea of a paternal God is changing today.

Cheers!

Frodo said:
That's not a very difficult question at all. I heard that all it takes is one generation to produce a primitive group of people. Probably the further that a group of humans move away from the central point aka Babel, over time it becomes more isolated and more likely to lose the knowledge and know how of the former group from where it come from.

check out https://biblescienceguy.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/8-tower-of-babel-origin-of-people-groups/

But the problem facing the atheist is how he explains intelligence, reason, logic in the first place. Without recourse to God you are left with the absurd idea that non-rational things can give rise to rational beings capable of employing that intelligence for its own progress and advancement. That's a bigger miracle requiring bigger faith.

Frodo · Feb 17, 2015

Agoraphobic said:
It is impossible for such stray aways to lose that much knowledge. They might lose certain methods of making/forming tools with metals as it may not be available in their new lands, but things like agriculture? Animal husbandry? Cloth weaving? Even concepts of religion are markedly different.

The Australian agorigines do not possess any form of agriculture, and were hunter gatherers when white men discovered them. The American Indians have not yet invented the wheel, and the Chinese had totally different ideas about Gods from the Middle-Eastern semitic peoples where the story of Babel is based. It is evident that hominid diaspora out of East Africa better explains these differences than the Biblical story of humankind spreading out from Shinar or Mesopotamia, the suspected location of Babel. The idea of the heavenly-father God changed the ways people thought of the all-conquering, powerful Gods of pre-Christian times, and even this idea of a paternal God is changing today.

Cheers!

Really? Consider that we have lost the knowledge of building architectural wonders like the Pyramids without the benefit of modern technology. And losing knowledge quickly in the past is not that hard to fathom since much knowledge in the past was transmitted orally. And when people in the past lived up to 900 years you have a lot of walking encyclopedias to learn from. But after the Flood the lifespan of humans dropped significantly, so this would affect seriously the amount of knowledge that can be transmitted.

Agoraphobic · Feb 17, 2015

Why not? Egyptian civilization collapsed (for whatever reasons) and other civilizations rose in the region. It's wealth, and hence ability to engage such huge projects slowly vanished and the masonry skill went elsewhere. Or could they have been built by ancient aliens? Bro, you really believed that people in ancient times lived for hundreds of years? That's up to you. I can understand one's inclination towards biblical stories for their morals and ethics, but to take them as things that actually happened, its up to you. I will not debate with you or anyone about the authenticity of these events, it will never end. Thanks for the discussion, and wish you all the best. :wink:

Cheers!

Frodo said:
Really? Consider that we have lost the knowledge of building architectural wonders like the Pyramids without the benefit of modern technology. And losing knowledge quickly in the past is not that hard to fathom since much knowledge in the past was transmitted orally. And when people in the past lived up to 900 years you have a lot of walking encyclopedias to learn from. But after the Flood the lifespan of humans dropped significantly, so this would affect seriously the amount of knowledge that can be transmitted.

Frodo · Feb 17, 2015

Agoraphobic said:
Why not? Egyptian civilization collapsed (for whatever reasons) and other civilizations rose in the region. It's wealth, and hence ability to engage such huge projects slowly vanished and the masonry skill went elsewhere. Or could they have been built by ancient aliens? Bro, you really believed that people in ancient times lived for hundreds of years? That's up to you. I can understand one's inclination towards biblical stories for their morals and ethics, but to take them as things that actually happened, its up to you. I will not debate with you or anyone about the authenticity of these events, it will never end. Thanks for the discussion, and wish you all the best.

Cheers!

Egypt is still around, but I am talking about the loss of knowledge. People who migrated far from Babel and eventually got cut off because the land bridges were not longer there, got isolated and may lose the knowledge of prior times earlier.

Yes, I really believe that people in the past lived far longer as the Bible says, just like you also believe that all living things arose from nonliving things a long time ago as the evolutionists say. We have our own authority that we turn to.

Pope Francis: Evolution is real

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